I've never been comfortable with this topic, mostly due to a lack of in-depth research or understanding.  I think I assigned a negative connotation to it since I associated it with Calvinism.  However, since many saints also speak of it, I was not quite sure how to reconcile the doctrines or nuances.  I'm still not comfortable with the subject, but this short video seemed to help quite a bit by differentiating between predestination and determinism.

I've been struggling with it ever since I learned about Calvinism and Arminianism from the Christian vs Christian battles on arfcom, which has been relatively recent. I was saved less than 2 years ago.

I've seen the sides post up scriptures and arguments supporting their respective sides, but have been uncomfortable with favoring one over the other.

Is it possible there is truth in both?

The only thing I'm absolutely certain of concerning this issue is how I came to be saved, but I think it would be unwise to take a side based only on my experience.

No they can not both be correct.  However, luckily for us, God doesnt save people based on what their opinion of predestination is.  He knows for certain what He did and we as Christian's will know someday for certain also. There are Christian's who believe differently, but are still brothers and sisters in Christ.  We just debate stuff like that on here because we enjoy the debate

I've been a part of a few debates among Christians in GD that weren't enjoyable. I agree that we're all brothers and sisters in Christ, which is why I think arguing over stuff that doesn't really matter has the potential to cause harm.

This! God keeps his promises and the requirement for salvation isn't perfect understanding or prescribing to a specific doctrine, though some are in more error than others, who would claim their doctrine is without any error? Some are heretical, that's a different topic, but so long as any doctrine recognizes Christ as who he claimed to be, and recognizes Him as their lord and believes in him alone for their salvation, they're my brother's. There's sometimes debates passionate debates but we should be debating out of a loving heart and caring for one another, not bitterly or intentionally divisive.

This subject always gets muddled. As the Creator of the universe, God is outside of the constraints of time and thus knows the ultimate outcome for each of us. That is a far cry from a God who assigns salvation to some beings and damnation to others.

This.  Time is how humans experience reality because we are finite and physical.  God exists outside of  time.

I agree 100%.

None of it matters in the end. People make the Bible far too complex for what most likely are worldly reasons.

From a general standpoint, don't get overly confused between the idea of predestination and some human concept of pure determinism. I think it's often easy for the average Christian to do.
From a systematic theology standpoint, predestination is very much an integral, functional, and biblical principle that is revealed to us.

Predestination just means that God chose who would be saved and who would not be saved.

If the idea of God choosing who is saved and who isn't bothers you, it's really time for a gut and mirror check.

God's perfect - we aren't.
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Because God chose us, we chose him. Both choices are necessary, but God's choice is the ultimate cause, without which our choice would be impossible.

Discussing the "how" of God's choice means that we chose him is kinda the next step, but there are so many misconceptions about it that it's hard to pick one and run with it.

Unless it just means those that turn to God and believe are predestined to be with Him.

That would just be foreknowledge, which accompanies predestination and election in direct scriptural reference.

It doesn't seem "fair" when we view people (or at least some) as worthy or deserving. That turns to "What did he do to be saved? I'm as good as he is. That shouldn't be fair."

When you see the scriptural support for no one being worthy, all being fallen, (none are righteous, no not one), we see that it is sheer mercy that any of us might be used for God's ultimate glory.

If we hold a human abstract for "good" above God's standard of actual good, we will always fall short on this view.

Yes

And, Yes

Seems fair to me.  What must one do to be saved? Believe the Son of God is who he said he was and that his payment was/is sufficient.  (belief and faith are basically coupled) this is why I harp on WHY do you believe? I have many reasons many are based on the validity and authenticity of scripture, many are based on experiences, but my faith is far from blind and so I'm no longer easily shaken by atheist and their questions from a place of poor understanding.

No, none are worthy on their own accord or actions, none can save themselves. But that doesn't mean we can't choose to have enough faith if you want to look at it that way to accept the possibility the Bible is true and go investigate it for ourselves with a honest search for truth. It doesn't mean we can't choose to accept God's word as true after doing so and finding there is extremely strong evidence (like heaps) that when examined the depth and broadens of the supporting evidence that it's kind of crazy not to believe it's true.



Where i said choose to have enough faith some may point to their Calvanistic chain of events of God making that person spiritually alive...I don't think it's that, I don't see their proof texts as really supporting that strongly. I see it more just as that person hasn't hardened their heart yet to the point they refuse to see truth. Though I have said and still would agree there's possibly and probably cases where perhaps God did through devine means open someone's eyes...like say Paul I suppose might be an example similar to what most well studied Calvinist believefar as that chain. That doesn't necessarily mean that's the norm and certainly doesn't seem to be to me.

Example, at what age does a child no longer accept every word his or her parents tell them is true? Likewise people have varying degrees of hardness of their heart. And so for some it is easier to accept the gospel than for others. At least that's how it makes sense to me as to why some believe more easily than others.

This is where understanding the difference between our basic beliefs that we cannot prove and our beliefs that we derive from them helps.

We all have and cannot avoid having beliefs we cannot prove.  I believed the Gospel because I believed it was God's word, and true. It is impossible for us to prove that any thing is God's word, for the simple fact that in order to prove something, you have to find something more sure than it to prove it -by definition, you *cannot* find something more sure than God.

The atheist has unproven beliefs, and cannot not-have them ... excepting theirs are irrational regarding God.

If you want to work through the texts regarding *why* we believe, the invitation is still open.  There really is no biblical reason to say that God is not in control of who does and who does not get saved. It's not just angels dancing on the head of pin type discussion. God chose to love me before I knew him and make me able to love him... that has feet in how we feel and think and act.

Predestination simply means to be destined beforehand. When I got into the car today, I predestined to go to work.

People assume predestination automatically refers to salvation/faith because they also assume what "adoption" means in Ephesians without looking up what that phrase refers to elsewhere, like in Romans 8:

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

So those who believe are determined beforehand to the redemption of our body, as is also mentioned in Ephesians 1:

13In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Notice the chain of salvation in verse 13: hearing -> believing -> sealing -> waiting for a future redemption.

You have to read Calvinism into these verses. They aren't there organically.

[He's right you know meme goes here]

That words can refer to multiple meanings is not new.

Same as with anything else. Where the bit you're looking at doesn't tell you what it means, you expand. If it's silent on the thing you want to know, you cant' use it.  You go to somewhere that isn't silent on it.

Romans 8:23 is not talking about God's choice of who will and won't be saved.

Instead of doing inane bible-back and forth of a verse. I'd rather walk through a whole thought/chunk, as that lets the author actually speak for himself and define his own words and meanings.

Ephesians 1:1-12
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

v1: To the saints - (the believers, those who make profession of faith in Christ's work on their behalf).

v3-4: God the Father blessed us (the saints, believers, those who make profession of faith) with every blessing, just like he chose us before creation ... and chose us in a way so that we would be holy and blameless  before him (how does one become holy and blameless before God - by believing on Christ's work on their behalf - you can't make yourself holy before God outside of the work of christ).

v4-6: God the father lovingly *chose us to be adopted through the means of Christ - that means messiah - savior - and that done so that there would be praise of God's glorious grace (grace = unmerited favor - that means you can't merit this favor, in any way) that God freely (without price = not based on our work) gave to us in Christ.

v7-8: In Christ we have redemption through his shed blood, forgiveness of our sins, from his very deep grace (if it's a grace, you can't have merited it in any way, not even a little bit. It's either grace or not grace).  

v8-10: Kinda opaque to me, but whe know the HE is God the father due to the Christ reference. We do know this cannnot contradict the rest of the passage.

v10-12: In him (the father, I think)  we have gotten an inheritance, because we were predestined ... in this passage predestined = chosen by God the father to receive the work of Christ on our behalf not because of anything that could be meritorious that we've done... (grace = grace). Chosen for salvation. By grace. Before creation. And not to our praise, but to his, so that God's glory would be praised.

All there, in the text, organically.

It's much harder to mangle the text when you pick a single line of thought out, let it speak where it does, refuse to speculate about what it means where it doesn't tell you, and you don't presume beforehand that God does or even can contradict himself (lie).

That isn't going to help your argument, especially when it does what you're accusing others of doing.

You literally added determinism into Ephesians 1 when other Christians read that and don't come to that conclusion.

Look up "elect" in Isaiah, it's not about who's selected for heaven and who's not, it's about who is chosen for a purpose to fulfill the will of God in this world, aka Christ and the Jews there. Election/chosen is about purpose, not spiritual status.

Paul was chosen to bring the message of the Messiah to the western world.

Btw, foreknowledge doesn't mean causation. If you let something go from your hand knowing it will fall, that doesn't mean your foreknowledge caused it to fall as if gravity didn't do it.

That people disagree over things only means they disagree. Nothing else.

Ok, so you say I added it. You chopped out all of my post where I said what the passage says AND you haven't gone to the passage and shown how, if you read it like you read everything else, it says what you think it does (or doesn't say something).

I didn't add the that God chooses who will be saved to the passage. It's right there in the text. <--- this would be your cue to actually interact with what I said.


I didn't say the text means "God had foreknowledge of who would choose him." The text nowhere means/teaches that. It does teach that God chose who he would graciously save, and unless you're gonna say that grace=you get it based on your behavior/merits/what you do/what you believe, you're not getting that from the text.

Again, I invite you to walk through that chunk of text and read it just like you read anything else and show how it teaches or doesn't teach whatever ... you know, have a good interaction. That can actually go somewhere beyond windmilling.

I see you as windmilling. You're misrepresenting what I posted while trying to argue the same tired debunked Calvinist argument that someone actively placing faith in Christ is saving oneself through works. No, faith isn't a work, and it's something everyone has. Faith in of itself doesn't save you, God does. You can place your faith in a ham sandwich to justify yourself before God but it doesn't have that ability - only Christ does; therefore, placing your faith in Christ isn't saving yourself, since you are still saved by Christ through a decision to believe without any works on your part (yet Calvinists will pound their pulpits on how works are necessary to salvation, but I digress).  

Here's the synopsis of Ephesians 1: Paul was literally chosen by Jesus for the task of bringing the message of salvation to the Gentiles, and very little of what he wrote is unique to him. Most of what he wrote is in the Old Testament, understood through the lens of the Messiah, and basically 'translated' for the western mind.

In verse 4 you did what most Calvinists do and left out "IN HIM". We are not chosen of ourselves to "be holy and blameless before Him". We are chosen IN HIM to be holy and blameless before God. Paul is saying that God has purposed those who believe IN CHRIST to be presented before God as blameless; not having sin imputed to us (Romans 4:5-8).

In verse 10-12 We have an inheritance with Christ, which is mentioned in verse 14 and again goes back to what Paul wrote in Romans 8:23-25. We will be resurrected as Christ was. In your commentary, you are literally reading "chosen for salvation" when that's nowhere in the verse - but above you're claiming you didn't add it.

I think you're confused about who you're responding to as well.

Try reading that again from our perspective. It's hard to get past what you were taught, but try to see it from our understanding. We see it from yours, but do you see it from ours? I agree God predetermined that all who should accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour that all who do this shall be adopted as son's through Christ. And He determined that since before the foundation of the world. I have zero problem with that.

I didn't misrepresent what you posted, and you're making the false assumption about what argument was made, and in fact your assumed argument isn't even reformed or calvinistic, though I have no doubt someone somewhere you ran into probably made it to you once and represented it as being such - or that you simply misunderstood what was told you. Which of those I can't say applies here.

Saving faith is a Gift which we are given the ability to exercise, it is a work, but it is not something we can boast of, specifically for the reason that we couldn't make ourselves able to believe the gospel. The exercise of that faith is a work that does not make us right with God and yes, it's Christ's sacrifice in our place that makes us right with God.

Work is absolutely necessary for salvation - *Christ's work.* Nothing of ours is sufficient or effective to make ourselves right with God.



You've just done what I was trying to avoid doing with paul's text. Taken a small chunk of it and said it means something that it doesn't. That is more liable to happen when you go smaller because the unknowns get larger and we are prone to speculation and refusing to let the text speak.

You just assumed, without getting it from what I posted, that I meant something else besides:

He (God the father) "chose us(those who have professed faith in the gospel) in him(Christ)," this choice having been made before creation, and cannot be because of anything they have done, because the choice is one based on unmerited favor (grace) as the following verses say (in accordance with the rest of the bible).

Instead of assuming for no good reason you ought to have at least asked what I meant first regarding something that central.

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him."

There is no other way to be holy and blameless before God than to be in Christ (represented by him) by believing the Gospel. We were "chosen by God the father to be in Christ before the foundation of the world so that we would be holy and blameless before him(God the father)."

That's what those words mean, and that's where it is in the verses.

In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Having been predestined to ... ?  Does this say?  I mean just this. We aren't reading romans 8. We're reading Ephesians 1:1-12. In order to determine if romans 8 and this passage are talking about the same topic, you have to actually be able to say what this passage is talking about *without presuming it.*

Verse 3-4 tells us that God chose us in Christ in such a way as to be holy before Him (that can only be done by salvation). Verse 10-12 here *doesn't tell you* what we are predestined to (there's a comma there, it's a 2 subject list).  Literally, it's that in him (Christ) we have obtained an inheritance (adoption as sons/redemption/all the promises), because we were chosen according to God's purposes, God who works all things according to what his desires say, so that those who were the first to have hope in Christ would be in a state that would praise God's glory.


I don't know you from adam's housecat and have no way to verify any claims you'd make, I don't care about that anyways, and I am interacting with the content of what you post.

You're taking the word "chosen" and inserting a priori that it always adds the context of salvation as what the subject is chosen for. That's not how Biblical interpretation works, even though you're trying to lecture others on biblical interpretation. The context defines the terms, not the other way around.

As for faith being a gift, it is only in the sense that all people are given a measure of it (Romans 12). The issue isn't who has faith itself, it's what they choose to place their faith in. The only thing that has the ability to save is Christ, so place your faith in Him.

And before you cite Ephesians 2:8-9, be aware that the genitives in the Greek show that the gift in that passage isn't faith, it's "salvation by grace through faith" that is the gift given by God. And if Greek genitives don't matter, then Peter is the first Pope.

And yeah, you misrepresented what I posted because you were arguing against a point I did not make.

Oh and Romans 8 and Ephesians are talking about the same topic: the blessings given to those in Christ.

Again:

Verse 3-4, God the father chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless before himself. That only CAN happen through salvation. God the father chose us in Christ for salvation. There is no other way to be right before a Holy God.


I wasn't talking about romans 12:1-8, I was talking about ephesians 2:1-10.

I don't believe you know koine, I have no way to confirm if you do or don't, and even if you did, I'm not going to get into the game of "I know koine, you don't (automatic victory lap!!!)." If you want to discuss eph 2:1-10 in the english, I'm all up for that.

----

Where in the text that I posted did I say you were arguing something that you weren't?

Chosen in him.

What else do you call a predestined people who turn to the Son, but a people chosen in Him?

Chosen in him by whom?

The passage tells you, and it also tells you it's a gracious choice, meaning it cant be due to anything we've done.

Right, but then Calvinism adds that God chooses who believes and who is excluded from salvation.
There are many who do know koine and point this out: even Calvinist scholars make that argument regarding the Catholic claim on Matthew 16:18. But they avoid and deflect from the grammar on Ephesians 2:8-9. BTW, if you aren't doing word studies in the Greek using good lexicons and a Greek Old Testament (Apostolic Bible Polyglot is a great one), you're missing out on a world of depth in the Bible. The resources are out there.
"God had foreknowledge of who would choose him" is not an argument I made in this thread.

God elected Christ as the one by whom we receive our inheritance, it is not about who God has not excluded when God wills all to believe (1 Timothy 2:4)
Seems you haven't been following the discussion. It's entirely by Christ's work. Yet faith is not a work - since it is the object of the faith that saves, not faith itself.

V 3-4 says God chooses who is saved.
Reformed theology: God chooses who is saved.
Predestination regarding salvation: God chooses who is saved.
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Again, I am not going to play around in the koine pool when I don't have the tools to do so, nor am I going to validate "I can and you can't = you have to be wrong." If you can and you're discussing with someone else who can, Cool, more power to you, that's worthwhile. I don't go out of my way to ignore that stuff, but I'm not going to try and build an argument about stuff I don't know and can't assess meaningfully myself.
----
... and I didn't say you were making that argument re:foreknowledge. Just looked again to make doubly sure I hadn't.


"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him."
You flipped the order backwards.




^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't understand why the advocates of predestination argue on its behalf.

The people with whom you are arguing are predestined to agree with your position or disagree.

Isn't it the case that according to your beliefs, nothing that you do or say can change their minds?

Some are called, others are chosen. He knew us since the foundation of the world. The chosen have a specific purpose, even though we all have free will.
Noah
Moses
David
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Daniel
Mary
John the Baptist
Paul
And I could go on and on.

You're arguing in circles. You're not even addressing our actual points, just repeating your own ad nauseum regardless of what anyone else has posted.

No it doesn't. It says God has predestined believers to adoption as sons, and as Paul wrote to the Romans and explains in Ephesians 1:13-14, that adoption refers to the future redemption of believer's body.




You can't just wish the facts I present away of you have no argument.

The thing is that this not something I made up. Scholars who do study Koine Greek have pointed it out like I have to you. If you haven't heard it before, you haven't actually taken the time to read the arguments against Calvinism. It really just seems like you've only read what Calvinists claim about non-Calvinists. Go look up Dave Hunt, Leighton Flowers, Ken Wilson and Beyond the Fundamentals on YouTube or read the books some of those men have written.


'He chose us in Him" not "He chose us to believe in Him" like you have been fooled into reading.

Again you're arguing in circles, trying to ignore anything that isn't what you want to read.

Always easy to claim, especially so when you do it without using the quote function and show where it actually has happened ... will you also make it "not even when asked where it happened" ...?


You accuse me of arguing in circles and than you don't even pay enough attention to what's going on to tell the difference between the numbers "3 and 4" and 5 - You quoted 5 here, unless you seriously want to count "In love 5 He... " at the very end of 4 as all of 5. If you're going to accuse people of handwaving things away/arguing in circles/etc. you ought to at least pay as much attention as you are asking others to pay.

You keep running away from the chunk of text being discussed without even showing that the section you're running away from is limited to the meaning you say it is.  You're saying it's not about belief as a blessing and than jumping away from it to other places. Furthermore it is impossible to be adopted as sons of God without having believed the Gospel in the first place.

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us <---Christians with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He <---- God The Father chose us <---Christians in Him before the foundation of the world, that we <---Christians would be holy and blameless  <----The ONLY way to be holy and blameless before God is to believe the Gospel and by the means of that belief be IN Christ    before Him.   <---- God The Father"

God the father blessed us (christians) with every spiritual blessing BEFORE creation; in Christ SO THAT we would be holy and blameless before him, the ONLY WAY to be holy and blameless before God is to represented by Christ and the only way to be represented by Christ is to believe the gospel.

God chose christians before creation in such a way that they would receive every spiritual blessing in a way that WOULD make them holy and blameless before himself, *which holiness and blamelessness requires* belief in the Gospel (you have to believe the Gospel to be represented by Christ).


What part of "I don't know koine therefore I'm not going to try and assess arguments that REQUIRE KNOWING KOINE to assess" do you not comprehend?  You are doing the exact equivalent of "but here in ancient chinese this has been shown to be false, so you should read this thing you can't read and agree with me!"

The argument over that passage you brought up *required* knowing the ancient common greek to assess.


I wonder how it is you know (not guess or presume) from what I actually posted that I "don't want to read" anything of any sort. Should I just assume things about you that have nothing to do with what you posted and everything to do with what I want to post for whatever reason?

You know, I don't disagree with this here, I just don't read Calvinistic determinism into it also. Yes, God chose all those who believe in Christ to be holy and blameless in Christ. That's not the issue.

The issue is conflating that with the idea that God has chosen exclude people from salvation via determinism by not giving them the super-faith beyond normal faith to be saved. It just isn't there.

Btw, posting a huge tirade isn't helping your case, and to be honest, I'm not bothering reading it all at this point because I don't think you're looking for an honest discussion, just an excuse to rant when people won't confirm your biases.

Um, the text says that God chose all who believe in christ by giving them blessings in such a way as to be holy and blameless. God's choice results in the holiness and blamelessness.  "... He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him."  God's choice resulted in our getting the blessing.

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I didn't say the chunk of text discusses reprobation (those not chosen).  It just says that God chooses who will get the blessing of belief in the Gospel.  For the other side of the coin, you go to ... texts that talk about it.

----

"huge" Man, I'm just interacting with what you've posted. This is not twitter, a 30 second soundbyte, or texting back and forth on a phone.  Forums are one of the vanishingly few places you can actually have a meaningful discussion, where the discussion length can be as short or as long as the topic requires. I genuinely find it hilarious that you seem to be taking my posting length being based on the complexity or not of the topic  ... as an indicator of being disingenuous.

As for  "rant" and "tirade"  ... if you really think my posts have been that ... you have a very odd definition of those words.

Nope. It says that those in Him were chosen to be blameless, as in those who believe in Christ. It is the result of faith in Christ, not the cause of faith in Christ. It does not say that belief itself is the blessing. That's actually suspiciously missing in the order of salvation in verse 13.

Obviously if God has to determine some to believe, it means that He's excluded others from belief. That's inherent in Determinism and you have to explain it. You can't just wave it away like you think you can wave away Greek grammar.

Thank you. Too many modern "self chosen" Pharisees in this thread. God would not have bothered assigning each of us a Guardian Angel if we were predestined for hell. That choice is ours alone. Knowing right from wrong is written in our hearts so no one has an excuse.

I would add Joseph towards the top of your "specifically chosen" list. God would not have allowed His only begotten Son to be raised from infant to adulthood by anyone other than a VERY Holy and dedicated man.

I'm not familiar with this idea..so the chosen people did not have a choice but the others did?  What about pharaoh?  He obviously played a role that was part of Gods plan.  Did he have a choice or could he have changed his mind and let them go right away?  This idea kind of sounds like a mixture of ideas.

I thought you were more well read than that; to use the old Pharoah argument.

I have never heard that line of thought before.  Or maybe never articulated that way.  I know that pharaoh has been discussed in election threads before, but this idea is a mix, so I want his opinion.  Or to use another example, what about Joseph's brothers?  Were they chosen to sell him into slavery?  Could they have played nice and not done it?  That is not a salvation question, it is a chosen question.  Chosen to fulfill Gods plan in that instance.

Might as well throw the Jewish mob who insisted on the Crucifixion into the mix. What if they had a change of heart at the last minute and decided that this Jesus guy was just a rabble-rousing magician and not a big threat to their status quo? Maybe at worst they thought he needed a good lecturing from Pilate and solitary confinement for life.

The Passion played out the way it was prophesied but at the same time the cast of characters had their own individual free will. They chose evil and possibly eternal hellfire so the rest of us had a chance of having our sins forgiven and everlasting life. They were not chosen by God to play the necessary villain parts, they volunteered, and God once again turned the tables on the devil.

So in summary I believe that certain Saints are given extra angelic protection and supernaturally groomed throughout life to fulfill specific roles but the ultimate choice is theirs. For example even though Mary and Joseph were kept as clean vessels by the Divine they could have said no thanks if they didn't think they were up to the task but God had fore knowledge that they would say yes.

Certain villains and even good guys like Job are allowed by God to be tempted extra hard by the devil to fulfill certain roles but never tempted beyond their strength. For example Judas could have prayed for and received spiritual strength when he was tempted to turn over Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. Imagine the blessings he would have received and the humiliation the devil would have received if he would have chosen that path but God had fore knowledge that he wouldn't choose that path when that time in history arrived .

Thanks for your answer.

Sir, it seems that you're really not grasping what he and I are saying. We agree and have no issues with what it says.  We're simply saying the choice God made was that those who accept the Lord are His chosen. Not that God picked certain people for salvation and for destruction  but that those who accept Christ as their Lord & Saviour are His chosen since before the foundation of the world, think more corporately, like that group of people.

Seriously go back, open the Bible, perhaps pray first and carefully read the scriptures again and see, if you can set aside what you have taught just for a moment to see if what we're claiming is a honest possible conclusion.

The sentence does not say God chose them because they were believers. <---- that is nowhere in that chunk of text. In any of it. Further, it says they were chose TO BE made blameless by receiving the blessings in such a way that they would BE made holy and blameless.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

"he chose them because of their belief" isn't there ^^^ in the grammar or definitions of that passage or anywhere else in the chunk (1:1-12) we're discussing.  What *Is* there is that God the father chose us in christ in such a way that we would be holy and blameless. <--- that's actually there, in it.

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I wasn't handwaving on reprobation. I simply said this passage doesn't talk about it (and it doesn't). You are right that the idea of "choice" requires picking some and rejecting others, but frankly I don't care to move past this point till it's meaningfully understood on all our sides, even if we don't agree.

"you think you can wave away greek grammar" <---- could you stop mind-reading me and just stick to what the things I post say? ... especially the stuff that I've already said is false (and explained, well, more than once)?