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Link Posted: 7/16/2021 11:23:28 AM EDT
[#1]
*Bp. (maybe)/Antipope (definitely) Jorge Bergoglio writes screed of unenforceable bovine excrement, like the good little humanist, God-hating, Freemason he is.

Will not comply.

May God have mercy on the true Pope, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. And may he not die silent on the reality of his grave error and the resulting Antipope Bergoglio.
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 12:06:37 PM EDT
[#2]
With his recent surgery, he may not be Pope much longer. A much more serious condition and invasive procedure than expected.

Unfortunately, unless there are enough conservative Cardinals and they can vote as a bloc, the next Pope will be as woke as this one.
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 12:33:38 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
*Bp. (maybe)/Antipope (definitely) Jorge Bergoglio writes screed of unenforceable bovine excrement, like the good little humanist, God-hating, Freemason he is.

Will not comply.

View Quote


I'm right there with you.

I'd be with you about pope Benedict too, but then to me it seems pope Benedict himself would have to rather forcefully agree with you for me to go along with it.  Personally I think this fruit comes from a tree planted long ago.
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 12:57:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Perhaps the people who want the TLM mass  can have services in their homes.

Like in communist china.
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 1:38:12 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Perhaps the people who want the TLM mass  can have services in their homes.

Like in communist china.
View Quote


Some of us did during Covid, when parking lot car counters were out in force.
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 2:01:16 PM EDT
[#6]
I attend an FSSP parish which celebrates the Latin rite. I don't think this is going to work out the way some of the more progressive cardinals and bishops in the church are hoping. They can not deny that the orders such as FSSP, SSPX, and Institute of Christ the King are all growing and have growing vocations while the ordinary rite parishes are aging and vocations are in steep decline. Bishops such as Barron here in the US are pleading publicly with people to come back to their parishes while these orders have grown unbelievably especially with young catholics even in the middle of the corona restrictions. Our parish is about three times its size now compared to the start of it.

It is because of this that this has been handed down.

Link Posted: 7/16/2021 2:16:24 PM EDT
[#7]


Papa Emeritus II was the best Papa.
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 2:20:54 PM EDT
[#8]
It's not a complete ban:

Art. 2. It belongs to the diocesan bishop, as moderator, promoter, and guardian of the whole liturgical life of the particular Church entrusted to him,[5] to regulate the liturgical celebrations of his diocese.[6] Therefore, it is his exclusive competence to authorize the use of the 1962 Roman Missal in his diocese, according to the guidelines of the Apostolic See.

but it does seem to regulate them much more than now:

to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962.[7] In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective Episcopal Conferences;
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 2:33:48 PM EDT
[#9]
Taylor Marshall's take on it. Someone embed it for me please.

https://youtu.be/X1GyCN_rDuw


Link Posted: 7/16/2021 2:48:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Pope Francis Drops Bomb on Latin Mass, Targets Traditional Catholics in new doc Traditionis Custodes
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 2:57:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I attend an FSSP parish which celebrates the Latin rite. I don't think this is going to work out the way some of the more progressive cardinals and bishops in the church are hoping. They can not deny that the orders such as FSSP, SSPX, and Institute of Christ the King are all growing and have growing vocations while the ordinary rite parishes are aging and vocations are in steep decline. Bishops such as Barron here in the US are pleading publicly with people to come back to their parishes while these orders have grown unbelievably especially with young catholics even in the middle of the corona restrictions. Our parish is about three times its size now compared to the start of it.

It is because of this that this has been handed down.

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Quoted:
I attend an FSSP parish which celebrates the Latin rite. I don't think this is going to work out the way some of the more progressive cardinals and bishops in the church are hoping. They can not deny that the orders such as FSSP, SSPX, and Institute of Christ the King are all growing and have growing vocations while the ordinary rite parishes are aging and vocations are in steep decline. Bishops such as Barron here in the US are pleading publicly with people to come back to their parishes while these orders have grown unbelievably especially with young catholics even in the middle of the corona restrictions. Our parish is about three times its size now compared to the start of it.

It is because of this that this has been handed down.



The problem is that FSSP, the Institute, and even Diocesan TLMs are usually a "personal parish", which is to say they offset the geographical parish requirements of Canon Law and have certain canonical rights not afforded to random celebrations as Summorum Pontificum opened and prior to it were more restrictive.

And the accompanying letter states:
Indications about how to proceed in your dioceses are chiefly dictated by two principles: on the one hand, to provide for the good of those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II, and, on the other hand, to discontinue the erection of new personal parishes tied more to the desire and wishes of individual priests than to the real need of the “holy People of God.”

https://wdtprs.com/2021/07/motu-proprio-day/

and the Charmin (the TP, not charming) Motu Proprio states:
Art. 3 § 2. is to designate one or more locations where the faithful adherents of these groups may gather for the eucharistic celebration (not however in the parochial churches and without the erection of new personal parishes);

ibid.

§ 5. to proceed suitably to verify that the parishes canonically erected for the benefit of these faithful are effective for their spiritual growth, and to determine whether or not to retain them;

ibid.

§ 6. to take care not to authorize the establishment of new groups.

ibid.

So: the goal IS the eradication of the Latin Mass through generational attrition AND they plan to accomplish this by shoving us back into the rented conference rooms, grottos, etc. AND they can get rid of the FSSP, Institute, Diocesan TLM, AND they cannot establish new groups (which would seem to mean either inviting in established societies of apostolic life, etc., or perhaps no new societies of apostolic life).

This is a defacto ban with a Rube Goldberg device set in motion effective immediately; the ban itself will be logical rather than legal, at this time.

The SSPX will be unimpacted by this except perhaps in a positive increase of attendance, God willing.

This is effectively undoing everything from Ecclesia Dei (JP II) to Summorum Pontificum (BXVI). We are back to a canonical situation where the only logical and practical conclusion is house Masses, independent chapels, and God willing, a heroic Bishop to start consecrating Bishops and continuing the holy work of Abp. Marcel Lefebvre. The question is how long will it take for the Rube Goldberg machine to trap the rubes.

Link Posted: 7/16/2021 4:43:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Further proof that the smoke of Satan has not only entered the Church, but that it now sits upon the Chair of Peter.  I will continue to pray for this miserable pope's repentance and conversion, but I will also now pray for a speedy end to his papacy.

Our Lady of LaSalette, our Lady of Akita, ora pro nobis!

Attachment Attached File


Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 5:36:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
With his recent surgery, he may not be Pope much longer. A much more serious condition and invasive procedure than expected.

Unfortunately, unless there are enough conservative Cardinals and they can vote as a bloc, the next Pope will be as woke as this one.
View Quote



I have to say, I really don't think it matters who the Pope is. Just like the president, the bureaucracy runs everything now. It's a machine.

But, we shall see what happens.
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 5:40:38 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I attend an FSSP parish which celebrates the Latin rite. I don't think this is going to work out the way some of the more progressive cardinals and bishops in the church are hoping. They can not deny that the orders such as FSSP, SSPX, and Institute of Christ the King are all growing and have growing vocations while the ordinary rite parishes are aging and vocations are in steep decline. Bishops such as Barron here in the US are pleading publicly with people to come back to their parishes while these orders have grown unbelievably especially with young catholics even in the middle of the corona restrictions. Our parish is about three times its size now compared to the start of it.

It is because of this that this has been handed down.

View Quote




I am working on the 3 steps required to have an FSSP mission to my small rural area.

1. Need a stable group of people (50 or more)
2. Find a parish that would be willing too have FSSP join them, with the idea that the FSSP would eventually get their own church building (or have one built if there's the funds to do so)
3. The group would then contact the Superior for the FSSP (I believe he resides in Scranton, PA) and let him know you're wanting an FSSP presence in your area
4. Then the group must petition the Bishop to allow the FSSP to have a presence in their diocese/archdiocese


With this new order..... kind of stops this process. I can try to have us become a corporation and purchase land... but you still have to have the local Bishop allow them in.

It will now be a different climate.

ETA: I guess can not be done at all.
Link Posted: 7/16/2021 5:42:10 PM EDT
[#15]
This is infuriating.  

I discovered the Latin Mass several years ago and have come to love it.  It soon became apparent to me how little soul the Novus Ordo mass has, especially as practiced in most parishes, whereas a missa cantata with an excellent and full choir and clergy who can sing well is absolutely sublime.  It really feels like God is among us and hearing our prayers; it's a tough feeling to describe, but it's quite the experience (my parish has the Latin Mass, but the choir and clergy aren't the best at singing; I still love my parish, though, and the mass).  The emotional resonance of something like the Tenebrae, especially if Allegri's Miserere Mei Deus is sung, is also hard to describe.

I've been without the Latin Mass for most of the last year and a half outside of streaming at parishes that were in open defiance of COVID mandates and were still holding and broadcasting in-person Latin masses (I've been using St. Gertrude the Great, which often has the bishop presiding over the Latin Mass; he's had some harsh words for those in government imposing COVID mandates, pretty much calling them evil; he has great homilies).  Our bishop has made it so that I haven't been able to attend in-person at my parish, yet (the demand for the Latin Mass greatly exceeds the allowed capacity, and our new pastor is much more deferential to the bishop and the state than our late pastor who preceded him).  I wonder if I'll ever experience it again in-person, now.

My parish is a personal one, so I wonder if it'll be able to maintain it, but I agree that this is meant to lead to the death of the Latin Mass.  Our bishops in my diocese have been very hostile towards my parish and towards the Latin Mass and traditionalists/conservatives in general (and the bishop got a rather hostile reception last time he came to our parish).  

I absolutely cannot stand this Pope and what I want to say about him are things that no Catholic should ever feel the desire to say about the Pope.  He's definitely been unpopular at my parish from the start.  Even the traditionalist priests had to admonish parishioners about badmouthing him in public with the whole "respect the office, not the man" thing.  He's been saying bad things about the Latin Mass and those who prefer it for some time now, so I guess this move comes as no surprise.  I feel compelled to pray for relief from the actions of this Pope, as bad as that sounds.  I wonder if a successor at this point would be any better; not sure how the College of Cardinals is composed these days, with the current Pope's impact on it.
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 5:05:24 AM EDT
[#16]
The first reading for this Sunday (18 July) in the Novus Ordo lectionary

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 6:14:44 AM EDT
[#17]
Wow, that's rather ironic.  Enough so to make me wonder.
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 8:28:32 AM EDT
[#18]
I have been thinking on this for a few weeks as the rumors have swirled.  

God is allowing this to happen at a time when many of us really need the spiritual strength and comfort that comes from the traditional rite.  How much and how patiently are we willing to suffer for him?  

My American rebellious spirit wants to fight and schism, but perhaps suffering at the hands of the Church is a mortification that the Lord has prepared for us.  

Whatever may come, keep the faith, pray, fast, and focus on getting yourself and your family in deep Union with Christ and on to heaven.
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 9:03:23 AM EDT
[#19]
Much here to swallow, digest, and ruminate upon--which I will endeavor to do in depth later.

The hue and cry bleating out of the Vatican these days always seems to be that the worst sin imaginable is being "rigid."

Well--with these directives and orders in this motu proprio might they themselves be seen as a mite "rigid?"

...I am no Canon Law expert--far from it.

But I have to ask: "Why put barriers (and in some cases, I'm sure an outright ban) before Catholics who want to worship God as others have done for centuries?"

Seems like this Papacy drifts towards exclusion and not inclusion. How are we supposed to "grow the Church?"

Footnote: As I approach my eighth decade of life granted to me by God, I see nowadays a "quickening" to the element of "time." Everyone in govenrment, education, finance, politics, the workplace and now even religion--seems to see a "window of opportunity" to introduce radical changes forthwith. It seems like anyone in a position of power either knows or has been told "change everything." Most of which is not for the common good.

For what it's worth--seems to me we are all in a pivot point of history here. Does the end result better or worsen Holy Mother Church? I am an unabashed member of "The Church Militant."




Link Posted: 7/17/2021 1:05:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have been thinking on this for a few weeks as the rumors have swirled.  

God is allowing this to happen at a time when many of us really need the spiritual strength and comfort that comes from the traditional rite.  How much and how patiently are we willing to suffer for him?  

My American rebellious spirit wants to fight and schism, but perhaps suffering at the hands of the Church is a mortification that the Lord has prepared for us.  

Whatever may come, keep the faith, pray, fast, and focus on getting yourself and your family in deep Union with Christ and on to heaven.
View Quote



I agree with you. But, do we go to NOM? Receive the Eucharist from unconsecrated female or male Ministers? Or just obtain.

It is really terrible because I have seen a change in my children towards mass for the good. We are allowed ONE more mass tomorrow before they will decide on "a change"..... is there a network to find Holy priests to say mass in homes?
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 1:22:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Out Lady of Good Success

She made prophecies of the 20th century.

" The Devil will try to persecute the ministers of the Lord in every possible way; he will labor with cruel and subtle astuteness to deviate them from the spirit of their vocation and will corrupt many of them. These depraved priests, who will scandalize the Christian people, will make the hatred of bad Catholics and the enemies of the Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church fall upon all priests. This apparent triumph of Satan will bring enormous suffering to the good Pastors of the Church, IN THIS SUPREME MOMENT OF NEED OF THE CHURCH, THE ONE WHO SHOULD SPEAK WILL FALL SILENT"


“As these heresies spread and dominate, the precious light of Faith will be extinguished in souls by the almost total corruption of customs"

“The faithful souls would suffer a continuous and slow martyrdom, weeping in secret and imploring that such dire times be shortened.”

“The secular clergy will leave much to be desired because priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Lacking the divine compass, they will stray from the road traced by God for the priestly ministry, and they will become attached to wealth and riches, which they will unduly strive to attain. How the Church will suffer during this dark night! Lacking a prelate and a father to guide them ... many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger.” The poor priestly souls that would be left to uphold the Church would suffer greatly."

“In the 20th century, this devotion will work prodigies in the spiritual as well as temporal spheres, because it is the will of God to reserve this invocation and knowledge of your life for that century, when the corruption of customs will be almost general and the precious light of Faith almost extinguished!”
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 4:53:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Our Lady of La Salette:
All the governments will have one and the same plan, which will be to abolish and do away with every religious principle, to make way for materialism, atheism, spiritualism and vice of all kinds...there will be desecration of holy places. In convents the flowers of the Church will decompose and the devil will make himself like the king of hearts.

   May those in charge of religious communities be on their guard against the people they must receive, for the devil will resort to all his evil tricks to introduce sinners into religious orders, for disorder and the love of carnal pleasures will spread all over the earth. THE CHURCH WILL BE IN ECLIPSE. ROME WILL LOSE THE FAITH AND BECOME THE SEAT OF THE ANTICHRIST."
View Quote

Link Posted: 7/17/2021 4:58:12 PM EDT
[#23]
I'm not Catholic, but I have great respect for the Tridentine Mass.  I don't speak Latin, but have seen a couple Latin Masses and read a translation of the liturgy. The only point I'm not sure I prefer is scripture readings in Latin rather than the vernacular. Nonetheless I feel for all of my Catholic brethren doing your best to hold to the faith as handed down by your forefathers and seeing the church drift away. It's been happening for a while now, and is a major part of the reason I haven't become catholic. Not sure where this continued papal drift away from both "the faith once delivered" and continued movement away from tradition in worship leaves the church, but it is saddening. I'll pray for the church.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us, sinners!
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 5:17:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I agree with you. But, do we go to NOM? Receive the Eucharist from unconsecrated female or male Ministers? Or just obtain.

It is really terrible because I have seen a change in my children towards mass for the good. We are allowed ONE more mass tomorrow before they will decide on "a change"..... is there a network to find Holy priests to say mass in homes?
View Quote


If we must, we got to the NOM and agitate for ad orientum, altar rails, increased penance availability, group rosaries prior to Mass, increased use of Latin prayers, eucharistic processions, widespread eucharistic adoration or find eastern divine liturgies.

I don't believe that the TLM is necessary for or that the NOM precludes salvation.

TLM just facilitates salvation and depth of faith SO MUCH MORE.  The stats tell the story  98% of 118-39yo TLM-goers say that they attend every week and holy day comared to ~20% of NOM-ers.

For TLM 99% believe in the real presence and 98% believe that Church teaching on sexuality is something we should follow.  For NOMers, those are both minority views.

It's been Traditionalists who have opposed Bergoilian plans (yeah, VG, I finally said it - but only because Franciscan would be confusing) to further Protestantize the liturgy, grow syncretism and indifferentism, promote homosexuality as holy, disestablish traditional gender roles, etc.

Traditionalism is not only growing fast in the US, long the Vatican's main source of cash; it's making lots of Trad babies and priests.  The FSSP has half as many seminarians as it has ordained priests.  In the Arlington diocese, long more conservative than Richmond, tons of diocesan parishes offer weekly TLM.  

I've attended TLM for just over a year and the impact it's had on my faith practice has been enormous. More frequent confession, at least one weekday mass, always first Friday and Saturday Masses, more adoration time, and that all happened during COVID when there were no church social events - chances to get to know other members of that apostolate.  I see young kids praying rosaries before Mass and making frequent confessions.  I see young women dressing modestly.  I see lots of families with 5-8 children.  I've never been anywhere else where being fully Catholic is "normal" and I love it.

It's clear that the traditionalist movement frightens Francis and I think his latest health scare made him reach for much more in on bite than he otherwise would have. You don't try to squash a foe you're winning against with such a crushing blow. Francis has the power, but he is lashing out from fear that his modernist project is about to be undone.

Our Lady of La Salette, ora pro nobis.
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 5:21:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not Catholic, but I have great respect for the Tridentine Mass.  I don't speak Latin, but have seen a couple Latin Masses and read a translation of the liturgy. The only point I'm not sure I prefer is scripture readings in Latin rather than the vernacular. Nonetheless I feel for all of my Catholic brethren doing your best to hold to the faith as handed down by your forefathers and seeing the church drift away. It's been happening for a while now, and is a major part of the reason I haven't become catholic. Not sure where this continued papal drift away from both "the faith once delivered" and continued movement away from tradition in worship leaves the church, but it is saddening. I'll pray for the church.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us, sinners!
View Quote



In every Sunday Mass and the overwhelming majority of weekday masses that I have attended, the priest reads the epistle and gospel in English as part of his homily. Also hand missals have the entirety of the Mass in Latin and the vernacular in a small book for $60-$90.  Most Churches have Sunday/Holy Day readings in missals, or you can get them (Sunday and weekday) for free Here
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 6:05:54 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:



In every Sunday Mass and the overwhelming majority of weekday masses that I have attended, the priest reads the epistle and gospel in English as part of his homily. Also hand missals have the entirety of the Mass in Latin and the vernacular in a small book for $60-$90.  Most Churches have Sunday/Holy Day readings in missals, or you can get them (Sunday and weekday) for free Here
View Quote


Yeah, at every EF mass I've attended the epistle and gospel are read in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily; passages from the scriptures in the other propers of the mass remain in Latin only.  My parish has enough of the small pamphlet-style missals (with the ordinary of the mass, and an insert with the day's propers included) to hand out to anyone who needs one, but a lot of folks, including myself, have the nice, complete missals (mine is from Baronius Press).  In either, the readings can be read in the vernacular.  I've picked up enough Latin to where I can follow along on the English side based on the words I hear in Latin.

I have been to parishes that didn't have any missals to hand out, though, including one that had the most sublime EF mass I've ever experienced.  At that parish, folks with their own missals volunteered to let me follow along in theirs without me having to ask (this was before I got my own).
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 6:19:10 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:


If we must, we got to the NOM and agitate for ad orientum, altar rails, increased penance availability, group rosaries prior to Mass, increased use of Latin prayers, eucharistic processions, widespread eucharistic adoration or find eastern divine liturgies.
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Quoted:


If we must, we got to the NOM and agitate for ad orientum, altar rails, increased penance availability, group rosaries prior to Mass, increased use of Latin prayers, eucharistic processions, widespread eucharistic adoration or find eastern divine liturgies.


Another thing I've seen done is having the NOM done in Latin, although I'm not sure that'd be compatible with Francis's decree.  We've done it on occasions where the substitute priest for EFM didn't know how to do it; he'd do a NOM in Latin, instead.  The NOM at our parish is definitely more conservative, stylistically.  Altar rails for communion and on the tongue only, no extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist used, no women involved in the mass (including as altar servers), prayers after mass (like what is done after low masses in the EF), no shaking hands and visiting people during the sign of peace, no mass holding of hands during the Lord's Prayer, etc.  Latin is incorporated as much as possible, as is chanting.

One thing that I've noticed is that traditional parishes have way more penance availability.  Most modern parishes have almost no availability.  Maybe an hour or two on one day, if the priest feels like it, with no confessionals, only face-to-face.  I can only think of two that I've been to that offered it frequently; one near me, and one in Chino Valley, AZ.  It's sad, really.

 
I've attended TLM for just over a year and the impact it's had on my faith practice has been enormous. More frequent confession, at least one weekday mass, always first Friday and Saturday Masses, more adoration time, and that all happened during COVID when there were no church social events - chances to get to know other members of that apostolate.  I see young kids praying rosaries before Mass and making frequent confessions.  I see young women dressing modestly.  I see lots of families with 5-8 children.  I've never been anywhere else where being fully Catholic is "normal" and I love it.


Yeah, going to my current parish made a big difference for me, too, and for the better.  The only thing I don't like about it is the lack of social events; my parish is a personal parish and also a commuter parish, so without such events, it's hard to get to know anybody.  I know next to no one at my parish even though I've been going there since 2013.  Any social church stuff I end up doing at my geographic parish, as I know a ton of people there and it's also where my KOC council is located.  Most of the social groups of young adults at my parish are folks who grew up being in home-schooling groups together, as lots of families at my parish do home-schooling and do so through parish groups (and one of the priests does group theology classes for home schoolers).  
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 6:29:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


If we must, we got to the NOM and agitate for ad orientum, altar rails, increased penance availability, group rosaries prior to Mass, increased use of Latin prayers, eucharistic processions, widespread eucharistic adoration or find eastern divine liturgies.

I don't believe that the TLM is necessary for or that the NOM precludes salvation.

TLM just facilitates salvation and depth of faith SO MUCH MORE.  The stats tell the story  98% of 118-39yo TLM-goers say that they attend every week and holy day comared to ~20% of NOM-ers.

For TLM 99% believe in the real presence and 98% believe that Church teaching on sexuality is something we should follow.  For NOMers, those are both minority views.

It's been Traditionalists who have opposed Bergoilian plans (yeah, VG, I finally said it - but only because Franciscan would be confusing) to further Protestantize the liturgy, grow syncretism and indifferentism, promote homosexuality as holy, disestablish traditional gender roles, etc.

Traditionalism is not only growing fast in the US, long the Vatican's main source of cash; it's making lots of Trad babies and priests.  The FSSP has half as many seminarians as it has ordained priests.  In the Arlington diocese, long more conservative than Richmond, tons of diocesan parishes offer weekly TLM.  

I've attended TLM for just over a year and the impact it's had on my faith practice has been enormous. More frequent confession, at least one weekday mass, always first Friday and Saturday Masses, more adoration time, and that all happened during COVID when there were no church social events - chances to get to know other members of that apostolate.  I see young kids praying rosaries before Mass and making frequent confessions.  I see young women dressing modestly.  I see lots of families with 5-8 children.  I've never been anywhere else where being fully Catholic is "normal" and I love it.

It's clear that the traditionalist movement frightens Francis and I think his latest health scare made him reach for much more in on bite than he otherwise would have. You don't try to squash a foe you're winning against with such a crushing blow. Francis has the power, but he is lashing out from fear that his modernist project is about to be undone.

Our Lady of La Salette, ora pro nobis.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

I agree with you. But, do we go to NOM? Receive the Eucharist from unconsecrated female or male Ministers? Or just obtain.

It is really terrible because I have seen a change in my children towards mass for the good. We are allowed ONE more mass tomorrow before they will decide on "a change"..... is there a network to find Holy priests to say mass in homes?


If we must, we got to the NOM and agitate for ad orientum, altar rails, increased penance availability, group rosaries prior to Mass, increased use of Latin prayers, eucharistic processions, widespread eucharistic adoration or find eastern divine liturgies.

I don't believe that the TLM is necessary for or that the NOM precludes salvation.

TLM just facilitates salvation and depth of faith SO MUCH MORE.  The stats tell the story  98% of 118-39yo TLM-goers say that they attend every week and holy day comared to ~20% of NOM-ers.

For TLM 99% believe in the real presence and 98% believe that Church teaching on sexuality is something we should follow.  For NOMers, those are both minority views.

It's been Traditionalists who have opposed Bergoilian plans (yeah, VG, I finally said it - but only because Franciscan would be confusing) to further Protestantize the liturgy, grow syncretism and indifferentism, promote homosexuality as holy, disestablish traditional gender roles, etc.

Traditionalism is not only growing fast in the US, long the Vatican's main source of cash; it's making lots of Trad babies and priests.  The FSSP has half as many seminarians as it has ordained priests.  In the Arlington diocese, long more conservative than Richmond, tons of diocesan parishes offer weekly TLM.  

I've attended TLM for just over a year and the impact it's had on my faith practice has been enormous. More frequent confession, at least one weekday mass, always first Friday and Saturday Masses, more adoration time, and that all happened during COVID when there were no church social events - chances to get to know other members of that apostolate.  I see young kids praying rosaries before Mass and making frequent confessions.  I see young women dressing modestly.  I see lots of families with 5-8 children.  I've never been anywhere else where being fully Catholic is "normal" and I love it.

It's clear that the traditionalist movement frightens Francis and I think his latest health scare made him reach for much more in on bite than he otherwise would have. You don't try to squash a foe you're winning against with such a crushing blow. Francis has the power, but he is lashing out from fear that his modernist project is about to be undone.

Our Lady of La Salette, ora pro nobis.



Thank you for your post. I COMPLETELY agree.

We have advocated for Communion rails at our local NOM (we have been traveling 2.25hrs to TLM, the last few months) but the priest (who was just reassigned) stated, "I will never ask an 80 yo to receive on their knees." .... I ask, what if the 80yo wants to receive on their knees. But I digress.

Yes, we must continue to fight for greater reverence.
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 6:32:28 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:


Yeah, at every EF mass I've attended the epistle and gospel are read in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily; passages from the scriptures in the other propers of the mass remain in Latin only.  My parish has enough of the small pamphlet-style missals (with the ordinary of the mass, and an insert with the day's propers included) to hand out to anyone who needs one, but a lot of folks, including myself, have the nice, complete missals (mine is from Baronius Press).  In either, the readings can be read in the vernacular.  I've picked up enough Latin to where I can follow along on the English side based on the words I hear in Latin.

I have been to parishes that didn't have any missals to hand out, though, including one that had the most sublime EF mass I've ever experienced.  At that parish, folks with their own missals volunteered to let me follow along in theirs without me having to ask (this was before I got my own).
View Quote

I didn't mean to refocus the conversation around the reading of scripture in the vernacular or not, just stating a personal preference. Though out of curiosity (based on an argument with my father, a seminary trained evangelical in vocational Christian ministry, who doesn't appreciate Catholicism whatsoever) does anybody know how common that practice, i.e. Missals in Latin and English side by side and readings in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily,  were prior to Vatican II?  When did Catholic approved translations of scripture in the vernacular for personal study gain widespread use?  We were recently debating with me lamenting the sparse reading of scripture in evangelical services (usually 5 -10 verses from only one book of the Bible) and was commending catholic mass for it's generous use of scripture. He contended that in the tridentine mass nobody could understand those readings anyway and basically asserted the church only recently (Vatican 2) stopped supressing scripture which I assume is a grossly unfair position, but had no hard facts to refute him with.

Either way I think it's awesome that the liturgy handed down by the apostles in Rome, and codified by Pope St. Gregory the Great is still in use. I also love the similarities between this liturgy and those of the Eastern Rites.  May the liturgy used by our forefathers for millenia to worship the triune God persist despite the attempts of many to suppress it!
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 8:11:22 PM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:

I didn't mean to refocus the conversation around the reading of scripture in the vernacular or not, just stating a personal preference. Though out of curiosity (based on an argument with my father, a seminary trained evangelical in vocational Christian ministry, who doesn't appreciate Catholicism whatsoever) does anybody know how common that practice, i.e. Missals in Latin and English side by side and readings in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily,  were prior to Vatican II?  When did Catholic approved translations of scripture in the vernacular for personal study gain widespread use?  We were recently debating with me lamenting the sparse reading of scripture in evangelical services (usually 5 -10 verses from only one book of the Bible) and was commending catholic mass for it's generous use of scripture. He contended that in the tridentine mass nobody could understand those readings anyway and basically asserted the church only recently (Vatican 2) stopped supressing scripture which I assume is a grossly unfair position, but had no hard facts to refute him with.

Either way I think it's awesome that the liturgy handed down by the apostles in Rome, and codified by Pope St. Gregory the Great is still in use. I also love the similarities between this liturgy and those of the Eastern Rites.  May the liturgy used by our forefathers for millenia to worship the triune God persist despite the attempts of many to suppress it!
View Quote


My missal was originally published before Vatican II.  It's the last pre-Vatican II edition of the missal, which is why it's used for the EF.  My understanding is that it was far from the first edition.  I suspect that the use of such missals probably goes back decades or possibly much longer before Vatican II.  There was also a time in the West when Latin was much more widely taught in school than is the case today (it's pretty rare below the university level now).

Catholic bibles in the vernacular go back centuries.  The manner in which bibles and other books were produced before the printing press is what made them rare, as it was slow, low-volume, and expensive.  It was this and not deliberate suppression that caused issues, although many still had some manner of learning the scriptures, and I suspect more people were in-tune to religious and scriptural references centuries ago than they are today.

The Church never suppressed the scriptures.  That's a myth promulgated by some Protestants and their offshoot branches of Christianity, and also by the anti-ecclesiastic/atheist types.

The other old orthodox churches never abandoned the old forms, which is nice.  It's sad that the Roman one chose to do so to a large extent, and now seems bent on killing its revival.  Some of the eastern orthodox music is beautiful.  I like some of the pieces chanted on Good Friday and will listen to them at 3PM sometimes on Good Friday, especially one sung depicting Jesus being taken down from the cross that's in Arabic.  Very melancholy and lamentacious, and the feeling evokes sorrow for our sins and the sacrifice and suffering they necessitated.
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 8:18:03 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:


My missal was originally published before Vatican II.  It's the last pre-Vatican II edition of the missal, which is why it's used for the EF.  My understanding is that it was far from the first edition.  I suspect that the use of such missals probably goes back decades or possibly much longer before Vatican II.  There was also a time in the West when Latin was much more widely taught in school than is the case today (it's pretty rare below the university level now).

Catholic bibles in the vernacular go back centuries.  The manner in which bibles and other books were produced before the printing press is what made them rare, as it was slow, low-volume, and expensive.  It was this and not deliberate suppression that caused issues, although many still had some manner of learning the scriptures, and I suspect more people were in-tune to religious and scriptural references centuries ago than they are today.

The Church never suppressed the scriptures.  That's a myth promulgated by some Protestants and their offshoot branches of Christianity, and also by the anti-ecclesiastic/atheist types.

The other old orthodox churches never abandoned the old forms, which is nice.  It's sad that the Roman one chose to do so to a large extent, and now seems bent on killing its revival.  Some of the eastern orthodox music is beautiful.  I like some of the pieces chanted on Good Friday and will listen to them at 3PM sometimes on Good Friday, especially one sung depicting Jesus being taken down from the cross that's in Arabic.  Very melancholy and lamentacious, and the feeling evokes sorrow for our sins and the sacrifice and suffering they necessitated.
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Believe it or not our local public HS still taught Latin up until about 6 years ago.
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 11:06:41 PM EDT
[#32]
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Never thought I'd see him on the Religion forum.

l liked a lot of III's music. Not such a fan of Copia though.


Link Posted: 7/17/2021 11:33:35 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:

I didn't mean to refocus the conversation around the reading of scripture in the vernacular or not, just stating a personal preference. Though out of curiosity (based on an argument with my father, a seminary trained evangelical in vocational Christian ministry, who doesn't appreciate Catholicism whatsoever) does anybody know how common that practice, i.e. Missals in Latin and English side by side and readings in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily,  were prior to Vatican II?  When did Catholic approved translations of scripture in the vernacular for personal study gain widespread use?  We were recently debating with me lamenting the sparse reading of scripture in evangelical services (usually 5 -10 verses from only one book of the Bible) and was commending catholic mass for it's generous use of scripture. He contended that in the tridentine mass nobody could understand those readings anyway and basically asserted the church only recently (Vatican 2) stopped supressing scripture which I assume is a grossly unfair position, but had no hard facts to refute him with.

Either way I think it's awesome that the liturgy handed down by the apostles in Rome, and codified by Pope St. Gregory the Great is still in use. I also love the similarities between this liturgy and those of the Eastern Rites.  May the liturgy used by our forefathers for millenia to worship the triune God persist despite the attempts of many to suppress it!
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:


Yeah, at every EF mass I've attended the epistle and gospel are read in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily; passages from the scriptures in the other propers of the mass remain in Latin only.  My parish has enough of the small pamphlet-style missals (with the ordinary of the mass, and an insert with the day's propers included) to hand out to anyone who needs one, but a lot of folks, including myself, have the nice, complete missals (mine is from Baronius Press).  In either, the readings can be read in the vernacular.  I've picked up enough Latin to where I can follow along on the English side based on the words I hear in Latin.

I have been to parishes that didn't have any missals to hand out, though, including one that had the most sublime EF mass I've ever experienced.  At that parish, folks with their own missals volunteered to let me follow along in theirs without me having to ask (this was before I got my own).

I didn't mean to refocus the conversation around the reading of scripture in the vernacular or not, just stating a personal preference. Though out of curiosity (based on an argument with my father, a seminary trained evangelical in vocational Christian ministry, who doesn't appreciate Catholicism whatsoever) does anybody know how common that practice, i.e. Missals in Latin and English side by side and readings in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily,  were prior to Vatican II?  When did Catholic approved translations of scripture in the vernacular for personal study gain widespread use?  We were recently debating with me lamenting the sparse reading of scripture in evangelical services (usually 5 -10 verses from only one book of the Bible) and was commending catholic mass for it's generous use of scripture. He contended that in the tridentine mass nobody could understand those readings anyway and basically asserted the church only recently (Vatican 2) stopped supressing scripture which I assume is a grossly unfair position, but had no hard facts to refute him with.

Either way I think it's awesome that the liturgy handed down by the apostles in Rome, and codified by Pope St. Gregory the Great is still in use. I also love the similarities between this liturgy and those of the Eastern Rites.  May the liturgy used by our forefathers for millenia to worship the triune God persist despite the attempts of many to suppress it!


The oldest vernacular missal I am personally aware of is from 1555.  I have to believe that there are older ones, but I have not studied this topic in depth.

As for the oldest vernacular Scripture, we can reach at least as far back as the VII century for samples.  The widespread personal use is probably not a good milestone to measure for the discussion you had with your father.  Those who had the ability and means had access to it.  Others, such as many in the nobility, were expected to study Holy Scripture; granted, mostly in latin, but since they knew latin, it did not preclude understanding.  Specifically for English, 1610 is a safe date to assert.

ETA: Lest we lose track of the bigger picture, it is not necessary (though certainly beneficial) for the laity to hear or understand the words in the Mass.  In other words:
L1: "I cannot hear what the priest is saying."  
L2: "Don't worry about it; he's not talking to you."
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 11:42:37 PM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:


The oldest vernacular missal I am personally aware of is from 1555.  I have to believe that there are older ones, but I have not studied this topic in depth.

As for the oldest vernacular Scripture, we can reach at least as far back as the VII century for samples.  The widespread personal use is probably not a good milestone to measure for the discussion you had with your father.  Those who had the ability and means had access to it.  Others, such as many in the nobility, were expected to study Holy Scripture; granted, mostly in latin, but since they knew latin, it did not preclude understanding.  Specifically for English, 1610 is a safe date to assert.
View Quote


Unless I missed something, isn't the Vulgate itself a vernacular scripture?  In my understanding St Jerome was producing something more accessible to Romans less literate in Greek.   That's sort of what "vulgate" meant anyway, right?
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 11:50:47 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:

Either way I think it's awesome that the liturgy handed down by the apostles in Rome, and codified by Pope St. Gregory the Great is still in use. I also love the similarities between this liturgy and those of the Eastern Rites.  May the liturgy used by our forefathers for millenia to worship the triune God persist despite the attempts of many to suppress it!
View Quote


I agree.  The similarities between the Tridentine Mass and the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom (standard Byzantine rite, which I think is the older of the two) is really something to see.  If you haven't seen both I recommend doing so.

I will also say with certainty that the Tridentine Mass will not go away, regardless of what happens with our present situation.
Link Posted: 7/17/2021 11:52:33 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:


Unless I missed something, isn't the Vulgate itself a vernacular scripture?  In my understanding St Jerome was producing something more accessible to Romans less literate in Greek.   That's sort of what "vulgate" meant anyway, right?
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Quoted:
Quoted:


The oldest vernacular missal I am personally aware of is from 1555.  I have to believe that there are older ones, but I have not studied this topic in depth.

As for the oldest vernacular Scripture, we can reach at least as far back as the VII century for samples.  The widespread personal use is probably not a good milestone to measure for the discussion you had with your father.  Those who had the ability and means had access to it.  Others, such as many in the nobility, were expected to study Holy Scripture; granted, mostly in latin, but since they knew latin, it did not preclude understanding.  Specifically for English, 1610 is a safe date to assert.


Unless I missed something, isn't the Vulgate itself a vernacular scripture?  In my understanding St Jerome was producing something more accessible to Romans less literate in Greek.   That's sort of what "vulgate" meant anyway, right?


You are correct.  I think I got tunnel vision on Latin vs. English.
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 1:20:51 AM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:


The oldest vernacular missal I am personally aware of is from 1555.  I have to believe that there are older ones, but I have not studied this topic in depth.

As for the oldest vernacular Scripture, we can reach at least as far back as the VII century for samples.  The widespread personal use is probably not a good milestone to measure for the discussion you had with your father.  Those who had the ability and means had access to it.  Others, such as many in the nobility, were expected to study Holy Scripture; granted, mostly in latin, but since they knew latin, it did not preclude understanding.  Specifically for English, 1610 is a safe date to assert.

ETA: Lest we lose track of the bigger picture, it is not necessary (though certainly beneficial) for the laity to hear or understand the words in the Mass.  In other words:
L1: "I cannot hear what the priest is saying."  
L2: "Don't worry about it; he's not talking to you."
View Quote


Douay-Rheims came out in the late 1500s, and it was not the first effort to put the Bible into English (although I believe it was the first one approved of by Rome).
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 6:50:02 AM EDT
[#38]
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"I will never ask an 80 yo to receive on their knees." .... I ask, what if the 80yo wants to receive on their knees. But I digress.
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What a bullshit strawman line that is. We have one old and very large woman who cannot easily kneel. She receives standing, on the tongue, at the rail.  We have several in wheelchairs who do not kneel or get out of their chairs at the TLM.

Before I switched to my Fraternity church, I often attended a NOM at JEB Little Creek. The contract priest there had started saying the NOM ad orientum and using the altar rail (it's really an extension of the altar).  While most received kneeling on the tongue, a large minority of boomer-tier retirees received standing, on the hand.  They just had to line up at the rail while Father made his typewriter-like circuit back and forth.

Because, regrettably, the indult still exists despite the bishops miserably failing to meet its preconditions, a priest in the NOM cannot deny reception standing, in the hand.
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 11:00:45 AM EDT
[#39]
IMO, good read on this mou proprio in practical, everday life terms:

An Unnecessary & Divisive motu proprio

Plus--some of the U.S. Bishop's newest responses -- the Mass in Latin rolls on:


“The Mass is a miracle in any form: Christ comes to us in the flesh under the appearance of Bread and Wine. Unity under Christ is what matters. Therefore the Traditional Latin Mass will continue to be available here in the Archdiocese of San Francisco and provided in response to the legitimate needs and desires of the faithful.”
View Quote


U.S Bishops Issue Guidance in Response To New motu proprio
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 11:50:43 AM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:


What a bullshit strawman line that is. We have one old and very large woman who cannot easily kneel. She receives standing, on the tongue, at the rail.  We have several in wheelchairs who do not kneel or get out of their chairs at the TLM.

Before I switched to my Fraternity church, I often attended a NOM at JEB Little Creek. The contract priest there had started saying the NOM ad orientum and using the altar rail (it's really an extension of the altar).  While most received kneeling on the tongue, a large minority of boomer-tier retirees received standing, on the hand.  They just had to line up at the rail while Father made his typewriter-like circuit back and forth.

Because, regrettably, the indult still exists despite the bishops miserably failing to meet its preconditions, a priest in the NOM cannot deny reception standing, in the hand.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
"I will never ask an 80 yo to receive on their knees." .... I ask, what if the 80yo wants to receive on their knees. But I digress.


What a bullshit strawman line that is. We have one old and very large woman who cannot easily kneel. She receives standing, on the tongue, at the rail.  We have several in wheelchairs who do not kneel or get out of their chairs at the TLM.

Before I switched to my Fraternity church, I often attended a NOM at JEB Little Creek. The contract priest there had started saying the NOM ad orientum and using the altar rail (it's really an extension of the altar).  While most received kneeling on the tongue, a large minority of boomer-tier retirees received standing, on the hand.  They just had to line up at the rail while Father made his typewriter-like circuit back and forth.

Because, regrettably, the indult still exists despite the bishops miserably failing to meet its preconditions, a priest in the NOM cannot deny reception standing, in the hand.


I agree. He never has any real arguments. Just like when I ask anyone why we had Vatican II & what did it accomplish, other than the decline of the Church.


We go to a diocesan TLM. The priests get moved around so it is either 2hrs or further. FSSP is almost 3hrs away. But, the priest built the high altar and moved the tabernacle to the center.

We leave the front pews open and let people know that they only provide on the tongue & kneeling. If they want the other route, they can go to the other 3 masses that day. He was training 2 priests on the Latin Mass.

But, now everyone is in a holding pattern. My family had to go to the NOM. My wife demanded my daughters wear their mantillas (which I think makes them very pretty). My wife had many women say they will start wearing theirs again as well (older ladies that is). They still hand pump hand sanitizer in order to touch the Eucharist.  How is that not sacrilegious?

But, we aren't giving up. We will find away to go to Latin Mass.
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 12:08:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
IMO, good read on this mou proprio in practical, everday life terms:

An Unnecessary & Divisive motu proprio

Plus--some of the U.S. Bishop's newest responses -- the Mass in Latin rolls on:

https://s.hdnux.com/photos/34/70/52/7572154/13/920x920.jpg


U.S Bishops Issue Guidance in Response To New motu proprio
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
IMO, good read on this mou proprio in practical, everday life terms:

An Unnecessary & Divisive motu proprio

Plus--some of the U.S. Bishop's newest responses -- the Mass in Latin rolls on:

https://s.hdnux.com/photos/34/70/52/7572154/13/920x920.jpg
“The Mass is a miracle in any form: Christ comes to us in the flesh under the appearance of Bread and Wine. Unity under Christ is what matters. Therefore the Traditional Latin Mass will continue to be available here in the Archdiocese of San Francisco and provided in response to the legitimate needs and desires of the faithful.”


U.S Bishops Issue Guidance in Response To New motu proprio



I love Archbishop Cordileone. I agree that it is a miracle in both forms. I do NOT agree that it is the same worship, with all the noise, irreverent behavior on or near the altar, hippy 70's folk music, Communion on the hand,, irreverent acceptance of the Eucharist. My parents Bishop (Bishop Barron) still restricts mass and threatens to stop at any given insult to the new COVID Liturgy.

At some point it is a sin against the 1st Commandment, with giving God His Due of worship. Communion on the hand was tried in an early century for a short time. They ended it because of the irreverence towards the Eucharist it breeds. Plus, that was probably still more reverent than what we have today (which was drummed up by Protestants during the Reformation).

If the people paid attention to what the priest is doing for us during the Latin Mass, I believe many would go there instead.it wouldn't matter if you had a "bad priest". You would only know from outside of mass. Instead of like a priest "fist-bumping" parishioners as he processes out. (Yes, this has occurred at my NOM parish)

We either believe Our Lord is there with us (which means we should be on our faces begging for forgiveness) or we don't.

Lukewarmedness has sickened the Church.

I will say I appreciate my children seeing the contrast. They have come to appreciate the Tridentine Mass. I guess we will see how it goes.

(Not a slight towards you BeNotAfraid)
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 3:32:26 PM EDT
[#42]
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I agree. He never has any real arguments. Just like when I ask anyone why we had Vatican II & what did it accomplish, other than the decline of the Church.
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I agree. He never has any real arguments. Just like when I ask anyone why we had Vatican II & what did it accomplish, other than the decline of the Church.


Really, we had Vatican II because the Risorgimento interrupted Vatican I. The Church ended the council early due to uncertainty around the Freemasonic winner of the war of unification being quite hostile to the Church. V1 was called to deal with issues of modernism in the RCC.

"The Rhine Flows into the Tiber" deals with the undermining of V2's intent by a clique of Euro bishops and a handful of US bishops aligned with them. Those liberals discarded all of the pre-council schemas for discussion and decision and seized control, manipulated the rules, etc to advance their agenda.  

Quoted:
We go to a diocesan TLM. The priests get moved around so it is either 2hrs or further. FSSP is almost 3hrs away. But, the priest built the high altar and moved the tabernacle to the center.

We leave the front pews open and let people know that they only provide on the tongue & kneeling. If they want the other route, they can go to the other 3 masses that day. He was training 2 priests on the Latin Mass.

But, now everyone is in a holding pattern. My family had to go to the NOM. My wife demanded my daughters wear their mantillas (which I think makes them very pretty). My wife had many women say they will start wearing theirs again as well (older ladies that is). They still hand pump hand sanitizer in order to touch the Eucharist.  How is that not sacrilegious?

But, we aren't giving up. We will find away to go to Latin Mass.


Never give up!  I'm on vacation this week and spent the night in Pittsburgh so I could attend Mass at the ICKSP church there. It was fantastic. Double digits receiving the sacrament of penance before and during Mass, a devout pre-Mass praying of the rosary, fantastic homily on spiritual and corporal works of mercy, a church packed to the rafters in a diocese where the COVID dispensation still exists, and best of all, a letter from the bishop affirming his appreciation for the parish, the Institute, and the faithful who worship there.
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 3:41:18 PM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:


Really, we had Vatican II because the Risorgimento interrupted Vatican I. The Church ended the council early due to uncertainty around the Freemasonic winner of the war of unification being quite hostile to the Church. V1 was called to deal with issues of modernism in the RCC.

"The Rhine Flows into the Tiber" deals with the undermining of V2's intent by a clique of Euro bishops and a handful of US bishops aligned with them. Those liberals discarded all of the pre-council schemas for discussion and decision and seized control, manipulated the rules, etc to advance their agenda.  



Never give up!  I'm on vacation this week and spent the night in Pittsburgh so I could attend Mass at the ICKSP church there. It was fantastic. Double digits receiving the sacrament of penance before and during Mass, a devout pre-Mass praying of the rosary, fantastic homily on spiritual and corporal works of mercy, a church packed to the rafters in a diocese where the COVID dispensation still exists, and best of all, a letter from the bishop affirming his appreciation for the parish, the Institute, and the faithful who worship there.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


I agree. He never has any real arguments. Just like when I ask anyone why we had Vatican II & what did it accomplish, other than the decline of the Church.


Really, we had Vatican II because the Risorgimento interrupted Vatican I. The Church ended the council early due to uncertainty around the Freemasonic winner of the war of unification being quite hostile to the Church. V1 was called to deal with issues of modernism in the RCC.

"The Rhine Flows into the Tiber" deals with the undermining of V2's intent by a clique of Euro bishops and a handful of US bishops aligned with them. Those liberals discarded all of the pre-council schemas for discussion and decision and seized control, manipulated the rules, etc to advance their agenda.  

Quoted:
We go to a diocesan TLM. The priests get moved around so it is either 2hrs or further. FSSP is almost 3hrs away. But, the priest built the high altar and moved the tabernacle to the center.

We leave the front pews open and let people know that they only provide on the tongue & kneeling. If they want the other route, they can go to the other 3 masses that day. He was training 2 priests on the Latin Mass.

But, now everyone is in a holding pattern. My family had to go to the NOM. My wife demanded my daughters wear their mantillas (which I think makes them very pretty). My wife had many women say they will start wearing theirs again as well (older ladies that is). They still hand pump hand sanitizer in order to touch the Eucharist.  How is that not sacrilegious?

But, we aren't giving up. We will find away to go to Latin Mass.


Never give up!  I'm on vacation this week and spent the night in Pittsburgh so I could attend Mass at the ICKSP church there. It was fantastic. Double digits receiving the sacrament of penance before and during Mass, a devout pre-Mass praying of the rosary, fantastic homily on spiritual and corporal works of mercy, a church packed to the rafters in a diocese where the COVID dispensation still exists, and best of all, a letter from the bishop affirming his appreciation for the parish, the Institute, and the faithful who worship there.



"Never give up, never surrender!" - Great Captain Nesmith


We are not. I am in the middle of my Holy Cloak Novena to St Joseph to start a TLM Group in my County. "Whatever you ask of St Joseph. You will receive." St Therese.

Ok, so that's one reason for Vat II. But, again, it has only accomplished decline of the Church.

I have a feeling that people didn't know much of the TLM. But, the strong wording from the Vatican may bring them to it out of spite. Because we are all frustrated with the cowardice of our Bishops and clergy.

This may end up being a revival. I have hope.
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 4:00:19 PM EDT
[#44]
According to Taylor Marshall, Bishop Foys just cancelled the diocesan Latin Mass at All Saints in Walton KY.  This surprises me.  The SSPX cathedral is literally right across the road.
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 4:22:08 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
According to Taylor Marshall, Bishop Foys just cancelled the diocesan Latin Mass at All Saints in Walton KY.  This surprises me.  The SSPX cathedral is literally right across the road.
View Quote


Seems to me that the goal of this whole effort is to push trads out of the church into Sedes, Orthodox, etc.  Shutting down a Diocesan TLM accross the street from SSPX is a perfect example of this.  This also explains Francis' seeming friendliness with the SSPX.  Maybe the ploy is to push everyone in to SSPX then declare them in formal schism?

Don't let them push you out!  If they can infiltrate and play the long game, we can too.  There may not be a return to sanity in my lifetime.  We must be insidious and never stop pushing and nudging towards true encounter with Mystery.  We must take up this cross!
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 6:08:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Hey! Brother, skid2041--no offense noted; no harm, no foul!

We need open, honest, and heart-felt discussion--ALWAYS! How else are we to gain holiness and wisdom?

You bring up excellent points! Thanks!

More:

Ask Your Father for a Fish--Receive a Serpent
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 6:40:16 PM EDT
[#47]
I read the entire link in the Catholic Register in the OP. Help out a non-Catholic on this.

Pope Benedict previously stated that local congregations could do Mass in traditional Latin? It was open to all who wanted to do it? That's the extraordinary form. And then there's also the ordinary form, which was also referred to as using the local vernacular. The local language?

So local congregations/parishes could choose Latin or local language for the Mass? And now they can't?

Is that what this is about?
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 6:44:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Hey! Brother, skid2041--no offense noted; no harm, no foul!

We need open, honest, and heart-felt discussion--ALWAYS! How else are we to gain holiness and wisdom?

You bring up excellent points! Thanks!

More:

Ask Your Father for a Fish--Receive a Serpent
View Quote



We must pray for our Holy Father. God can change hearts. It does not take much.
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 6:49:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I read the entire link in the Catholic Register in the OP. Help out a non-Catholic on this.

Pope Benedict previously stated that local congregations could do Mass in traditional Latin? It was open to all who wanted to do it? That's the extraordinary form. And then there's also the ordinary form, which was also referred to as using the local vernacular. The local language?

So local congregations/parishes could choose Latin or local language for the Mass? And now they can't?

Is that what this is about?
View Quote


The Traditional Rite is much different in Rubics (I believe this is the right word for it). It has a different orientation and presentation than the "ordinary rite" (which only became ordinary in 1970's)
You can actually watch each on the youtubes. You will notice a difference. They are still broken up into the Mass of the Catachumins/ Homily/ Mass for the Elect.... but much different presentation along with missing prayers. The ordinary right is watered down.... prostenatized, is what many of us say.
Link Posted: 7/18/2021 6:54:12 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I read the entire link in the Catholic Register in the OP. Help out a non-Catholic on this.

Pope Benedict previously stated that local congregations could do Mass in traditional Latin? It was open to all who wanted to do it? That's the extraordinary form. And then there's also the ordinary form, which was also referred to as using the local vernacular. The local language?

So local congregations/parishes could choose Latin or local language for the Mass? And now they can't?

Is that what this is about?
View Quote


Not exactly.  

You can do the new mass (a.k.a. oridnary form, novus ordo) in latin or english, or any other language.  The old mass (extraordinary form, TLM, latin mass) can only be said in latin.  

The old mass was revised extensively in 1970 in to the new mass we have today.  This involved stripping a lot of parts out of the liturgy, reinventing other parts, and leaving a LOT open to the preference of the individual priest.  People like the latin mass not because it's in latin, but because it is almost always very reverent by default, where most new masses you will encounter are full of cringey 1960's liberal innovations that go a long way to destroy reverence and encounter with mystery.  

As an example, belief in the real presence in the eucharist is very high amongst the latin mass folks, but very low amongst the novus ordo people.  

So what the new mass has accomplished is a watering down of core belief, which is why so many prefer the old mass.
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