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Link Posted: 11/24/2022 11:54:53 AM EST
[#1]
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Originally Posted By Swampgrass:


This is what goes through your mind on Thanksgiving ?
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Originally Posted By Swampgrass:
Originally Posted By amprecon:
I don't know how many times I've heard it, that pistols are insignificant for use in combat. Pistols don't win wars, but damn if they aren't effective against civilians. If S ever HTF in my AO, I'll have a pistol on me.


This is what goes through your mind on Thanksgiving ?


Attachment Attached File
brownells
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 11:55:55 AM EST
[#2]
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Originally Posted By 44rdv4rk:

not at 3 ft.
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Originally Posted By 44rdv4rk:
Originally Posted By rmakak:
When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true.

not at 3 ft.

Well it worked on those faggots in Wisconsin.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 12:34:54 PM EST
[#3]
"A pistol is what you use to fight your way to your rifle".
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 12:43:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: CherokeeGunslinger] [#4]
Pistols are certainly useful for combat. They make for a quick, maneuverable backup gun and they're downright scary in the right hands.

Pistols exist as a compromise of power for the sake of concealability and comfort. With good ammunition and proper shot placement, they work as well as any other firearm.

Sure, they won't replace a rifle or a shotgun in a combat situation, but they're far from useless. Of course, the most combat that most of us here will ever see is fighting the urge to eat copious amounts of Cheetos...
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:21:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: Miles_Urbanus] [#5]
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Originally Posted By Vic_Crown:


Depends entirely on the combat and what the alternative weapons were.

When the Zulus got up close at Rourkes Drift, the Webley .455 was way better than the issue rifle.

Clearing a trench in WW1 ? A pistol was of more use than the rifles.

Clearing Vietcong tunnels ?

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Originally Posted By Vic_Crown:
Originally Posted By dogsbody:
I think if you are in a war,engaged in combat,and you are relying on a pistol.  Something has gone very,very wrong


Depends entirely on the combat and what the alternative weapons were.

When the Zulus got up close at Rourkes Drift, the Webley .455 was way better than the issue rifle.

Clearing a trench in WW1 ? A pistol was of more use than the rifles.

Clearing Vietcong tunnels ?




A Webley is not better than a rifle with a bayonet. Charging a group of men with affixed bayonets is generally a bad idea. Don’t have to reload a bayonet, ever. A unloaded pistol isn’t a weapon. A unloaded rifle is even without a bayonet.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:25:18 PM EST
[#6]
A pistol will make you just as dead.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:26:58 PM EST
[#7]
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Originally Posted By spork:
Shotgun with birdshot is superior.  Meat-from-bone performance without overpenetration.  

You could also have the best of both worlds and use a Taurus Judge.  Mine fits great in an Uncle Mikes holster.
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Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:28:53 PM EST
[#8]
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Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:



A Webley is not better than a rifle with a bayonet. Charging a group of men with affixed bayonets is generally a bad idea. Don’t have to reload a bayonet, ever. A unloaded pistol isn’t a weapon. A unloaded rifle is even without a bayonet.
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Lols.

Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:30:20 PM EST
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CherokeeGunslinger:
Pistols are certainly useful for combat. They make for a quick, maneuverable backup gun and they're downright scary in the right hands.

Pistols exist as a compromise of power for the sake of concealability and comfort. With good ammunition and proper shot placement, they work as well as any other firearm.

Sure, they won't replace a rifle or a shotgun in a combat situation, but they're far from useless. Of course, the most combat that most of us here will ever see is fighting the urge to eat copious amounts of Cheetos...
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Mmmmm.  Cheetos.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:32:41 PM EST
[#10]
Pistols are useless…

Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:36:04 PM EST
[#11]
Russia has proven pistols can be used in war, against your own soldiers.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:39:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: MoRivera] [#12]
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Originally Posted By DriftingArmed:

No it’s serious. There are a bunch of interviews and stuff from operators that said they didn’t carry a pistol for a secondary. Instead they just carry extra ammo for their rifle. I can’t think of the names right now of anyone specifically off hand but I have seen a few of them say it. There were plenty of troops that did not have a pistol during gwot as well
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Rob O'Neill mentioned this when talking with Howard Stern.  But it sounded more specific to the mission rather than 'general' if that makes any sense.

Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:42:31 PM EST
[#13]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:42:32 PM EST
[#14]
Something that will keep shooting if not cleaned for a while, goes through mud, dust, extreme heat and cold, water, blood, being thrown around and such.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:44:16 PM EST
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:



A Webley is not better than a rifle with a bayonet. Charging a group of men with affixed bayonets is generally a bad idea. Don’t have to reload a bayonet, ever. A unloaded pistol isn’t a weapon. A unloaded rifle is even without a bayonet.
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Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
Originally Posted By Vic_Crown:
Originally Posted By dogsbody:
I think if you are in a war,engaged in combat,and you are relying on a pistol.  Something has gone very,very wrong


Depends entirely on the combat and what the alternative weapons were.

When the Zulus got up close at Rourkes Drift, the Webley .455 was way better than the issue rifle.

Clearing a trench in WW1 ? A pistol was of more use than the rifles.

Clearing Vietcong tunnels ?




A Webley is not better than a rifle with a bayonet. Charging a group of men with affixed bayonets is generally a bad idea. Don’t have to reload a bayonet, ever. A unloaded pistol isn’t a weapon. A unloaded rifle is even without a bayonet.


In the trench or Zulu example - 4 or 5 men charging you - you take 1 with a round, 1 with your bayonet - that leaves a few to overwhelm you.

The Webley would win in that scenario.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:44:46 PM EST
[#16]
First two guys my dad saw killed in Korea were shot at about a distance of 40 yds with a 1911. Both were dead before they hit the dirt. One was twitching when my dad got to him (unit medic) but neither had a pulse.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:46:44 PM EST
[#17]
Originally Posted By amprecon:
I don't know how many times I've heard it, that pistols are insignificant for use in combat. Pistols don't win wars, but damn if they aren't effective against civilians. If S ever HTF in my AO, I'll have a pistol on me.
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Ok…..
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:49:56 PM EST
[#18]
Go a step further...and practice shooting a pistol at 100 yards or beyond at steel targets.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:50:30 PM EST
[#19]
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Originally Posted By tsg68:


Lols.

https://i.redd.it/tbx55yy22ng11.jpg
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Originally Posted By tsg68:
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:



A Webley is not better than a rifle with a bayonet. Charging a group of men with affixed bayonets is generally a bad idea. Don’t have to reload a bayonet, ever. A unloaded pistol isn’t a weapon. A unloaded rifle is even without a bayonet.


Lols.

https://i.redd.it/tbx55yy22ng11.jpg


I’ll take a rock over an unergonomic club.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:50:49 PM EST
[#20]
Act of Valor disagrees with you. 4:20
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:51:00 PM EST
[#21]
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Originally Posted By AKSU:
One in five handgun shootings are fatal OP.
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One in two rifles (and shotguns) are.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:51:01 PM EST
[#22]
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Originally Posted By Vic_Crown:


In the trench or Zulu example - 4 or 5 men charging you - you take 1 with a round, 1 with your bayonet - that leaves a few to overwhelm you.

The Webley would win in that scenario.
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Originally Posted By Vic_Crown:
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
Originally Posted By Vic_Crown:
Originally Posted By dogsbody:
I think if you are in a war,engaged in combat,and you are relying on a pistol.  Something has gone very,very wrong


Depends entirely on the combat and what the alternative weapons were.

When the Zulus got up close at Rourkes Drift, the Webley .455 was way better than the issue rifle.

Clearing a trench in WW1 ? A pistol was of more use than the rifles.

Clearing Vietcong tunnels ?




A Webley is not better than a rifle with a bayonet. Charging a group of men with affixed bayonets is generally a bad idea. Don’t have to reload a bayonet, ever. A unloaded pistol isn’t a weapon. A unloaded rifle is even without a bayonet.


In the trench or Zulu example - 4 or 5 men charging you - you take 1 with a round, 1 with your bayonet - that leaves a few to overwhelm you.

The Webley would win in that scenario.


No doubt but war is a team sport.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:53:58 PM EST
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DriftingArmed:

No it's serious. There are a bunch of interviews and stuff from operators that said they didn't carry a pistol for a secondary. Instead they just carry extra ammo for their rifle. I can't think of the names right now of anyone specifically off hand but I have seen a few of them say it. There were plenty of troops that did not have a pistol during gwot as well
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Originally Posted By DriftingArmed:
Originally Posted By NothingBurger:


Is this sarcasm or have you seriously heard most DEVGRU guys say they didn't carry pistols? I have a very hard time believing that. Basically, I don't.

No it's serious. There are a bunch of interviews and stuff from operators that said they didn't carry a pistol for a secondary. Instead they just carry extra ammo for their rifle. I can't think of the names right now of anyone specifically off hand but I have seen a few of them say it. There were plenty of troops that did not have a pistol during gwot as well
I went shooting yesterday with someone from the 24 STS , he doesn't carry a pistol .
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:56:05 PM EST
[#24]
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Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:


No doubt but war is a team sport.
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Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
Originally Posted By Vic_Crown:
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
Originally Posted By Vic_Crown:
Originally Posted By dogsbody:
I think if you are in a war,engaged in combat,and you are relying on a pistol.  Something has gone very,very wrong


Depends entirely on the combat and what the alternative weapons were.

When the Zulus got up close at Rourkes Drift, the Webley .455 was way better than the issue rifle.

Clearing a trench in WW1 ? A pistol was of more use than the rifles.

Clearing Vietcong tunnels ?




A Webley is not better than a rifle with a bayonet. Charging a group of men with affixed bayonets is generally a bad idea. Don’t have to reload a bayonet, ever. A unloaded pistol isn’t a weapon. A unloaded rifle is even without a bayonet.


In the trench or Zulu example - 4 or 5 men charging you - you take 1 with a round, 1 with your bayonet - that leaves a few to overwhelm you.

The Webley would win in that scenario.


No doubt but war is a team sport.


It is indeed.

But sometimes one team numbers 150 and the other 4000.

In WW1 - a tiny fraction of the team ever reached the enemy trench and jumped in.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:56:08 PM EST
[#25]
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Originally Posted By amprecon:
I can't tell you how many times we've all heard it, pistols don't win wars and it's true alone, pistols don't. But I can't believe they are a completely insignificant tool for use in wars.
I'm just reacting the these shootings that have been taking place recently where the shooters have been using pistols rather than the dreaded "assault rifles".
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Commo wins wars and arty
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 1:59:37 PM EST
[#26]
Wasn't gd all a flutter about some general carrying a glock with taran mag extensions in Afghanistan. How did that turn out?
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:03:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: tsg68] [#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:


I’ll take a rock over an unergonomic club.
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That pistol butt is steel and sharp comparatively.  It’s going to leave a mark.

I get the feeling most of GD has never been in a fight, much less one with improvised weapons.  I had my jaw fractured in two places with a simple beer bottle and it knocked me unconscious.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:04:57 PM EST
[#28]
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Originally Posted By rmakak:
When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true.
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Not in a phone booth!
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:06:57 PM EST
[#29]
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Originally Posted By merick:
Wasn't gd all a flutter about some general carrying a glock with taran mag extensions in Afghanistan. How did that turn out?
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Scotty Miller
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:08:34 PM EST
[#30]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:08:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: tsg68] [#31]
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Originally Posted By merick:
Wasn't gd all a flutter about some general carrying a glock with taran mag extensions in Afghanistan. How did that turn out?
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The “Roland special”. It was pretty much Miller adapting his competition guns into a combat role.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:08:53 PM EST
[#32]
The pistol carried along with a rifle offers an advantage if one suffers a malfunction with the rifle while in contact with a closing enemy.

Drawing the pistol may be faster depending on the severity of the malfunction ?
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:09:50 PM EST
[#33]
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Originally Posted By Deadtired:
Pistols don't win wars.  So if your goal is to win the war, you don't need a pistol.  

A pistol MAY help you win a fight.  Probably not a rifle fight, but maybe a fist/knife/bayonet fight.  So if your goal is to survive that fight, you may want a pistol.
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If you really want to nit pick artillery and aerial bombardment is what most casualties have come from in war, not small arms fire
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:14:54 PM EST
[#34]
Pistols are militarily speaking symbols of authority and possibly the willingness to shoot your own troops for morale sake.

They are handy in trench warfare if you make a connection between French WWI handgun purchases and combat.

They bought nearly 1 million handguns during WWI.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:16:22 PM EST
[#35]
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


The presence of pistols don’t change the outcomes of wars. They change personal outcomes.
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Incredibly insightful words.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:25:39 PM EST
[#36]
Does this mean that PCCs are pointless because of their caliber or useful due to their better sights?
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:25:44 PM EST
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:



A Webley is not better than a rifle with a bayonet. Charging a group of men with affixed bayonets is generally a bad idea. Don’t have to reload a bayonet, ever. A unloaded pistol isn’t a weapon. A unloaded rifle is even without a bayonet.
View Quote



The Webley can fire more than once after being loaded.  The Martini-Henry cannot, alas.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:32:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: merick] [#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TontoGoldstein:
Does this mean that PCCs are pointless because of their caliber or useful due to their better sights?
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Yes.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:39:01 PM EST
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:



The Webley can fire more than once after being loaded.  The Martini-Henry cannot, alas.
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You know what else fires more than both of those once loaded? An ar15. I think we are more likely to have that than those other two with us. Also a ar15 sbr/pistol length is not much longer than holding out your arm to shoot your pistol.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:41:18 PM EST
[#40]
I hope it has been covered already, but several posters are conflating military combat with personal defense, and lethality with effectiveness.
There is overlap between them but they don't prove anything about the utility of a pistol in civilian self defense.
The overwhelming (and hugely successful) use of handguns for legitimate self defense is deterrence. Something like well into the 90th percentile of use out of millions of incidents yearly, according to Gary Kleck's study of Defensive Gun Use.

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6853&context=jclc


Firing a single shot that misses deters even more criminals because of the F!IBSA(Fuck! I'm being shot at!) effect.
Firing a single that hits(anywhere, with any caliber) stops almost every attack due to F!IBS (Fuck! I've been SHOT!)
If the assailant is hit and stops attacking, then proceeds to run 26.2 miles and never goes to a hospital for the scratch he received...that is a success.
The goal of  defensive gun use is to survive unharmed, period. It is not to kill, arrest, pursue or occupy ground.
If you watch videos of CCW defense uses, you'll routinely see that effect. It's almost as common in LEO use, with a slightly greater chance of engaging a determined foe since he is trying to avoid arrest.
The key takeaways are to avoid the 3 Stupids, awareness, tactics and being armed-always-with a quickly accessible weapon.
To that end, the handgun, since it is worn...not borne, is available at a split second's notice for defense.


Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:43:43 PM EST
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rmakak:
When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true.
View Quote
I disagree
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:46:30 PM EST
[#42]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:47:42 PM EST
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DriftingArmed:

It only shows brad Kasal holding a pistol while being carried out after being shot 7 times and wounded by a grenade. the story was he and other marines were going door to door in Fallujah engaging enemy. There is no story that says he was or was not using a rifle. So just because he got carried out with a pistol does not mean that is what he used. So I’m not sure that picture proves a point
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Originally Posted By DriftingArmed:
Originally Posted By Krombompulos_Michael:
The Marine in the center agrees with you OP and disagrees with the title of your post.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/97684/EC8ABC1C-AE00-43B7-AD3C-C5A8363BB2D7_jpe-2611910.JPG

It only shows brad Kasal holding a pistol while being carried out after being shot 7 times and wounded by a grenade. the story was he and other marines were going door to door in Fallujah engaging enemy. There is no story that says he was or was not using a rifle. So just because he got carried out with a pistol does not mean that is what he used. So I’m not sure that picture proves a point


Not too bright, are you?  Or maybe you’re just being a troll.

Thanks for making my point all the same. Here is a man shot up in combat holding a pistol.  He obviously sees value in it.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:08:18 PM EST
[#44]
Originally Posted By MoRivera:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glOnDceqqJc
View Quote

Anyone know what knife that was?
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:09:15 PM EST
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Krombompulos_Michael:


Not too bright, are you?  Or maybe you’re just being a troll.

Thanks for making my point all the same. Here is a man shot up in combat holding a pistol.  He obviously sees value in it.
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He was holding his pistol because he either didn’t have a rifle, couldn’t hold a rifle, or was down to a pistol. He was also holding a kabar so is that better than a rifle also?
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:17:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: sandblaster] [#46]
Thomas Alexander Baker (June 25, 1916 – July 7, 1944) was a United States Army soldier who posthumously received the U.S. military's highest decoration, the Medal of Honor, for his actions in World War II during the Battle of Saipan.


At this point Sgt. Baker refused to be moved any further stating that he preferred to be left to die rather than risk the lives of any more of his friends. A short time later, at his request, he was placed in a sitting position against a small tree. Another comrade, withdrawing, offered assistance. Sgt. Baker refused, insisting that he be left alone and be given a soldier's pistol with its remaining eight rounds of ammunition. When last seen alive, Sgt. Baker was propped against a tree, pistol in hand, calmly facing the foe. Later Sgt. Baker's body was found in the same position, gun empty, with 8 Japanese lying dead before him. His deeds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Army.[2]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:22:19 PM EST
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tsg68:


The “Roland special”. It was pretty much Miller adapting his competition guns into a combat role.
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No, that was Miller borrowing issued pistols from his PSD.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:33:27 PM EST
[#48]
Nor is a rifle if you want to consider aircraft and artillery.  

Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:39:42 PM EST
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TontoGoldstein:
Does this mean that PCCs are pointless because of their caliber or useful due to their better sights?
View Quote



A sub gun  is essentially a special purpose weapon and carrying one for general combat operations will cost you.


DEVGRU in Panama is a good example.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:44:08 PM EST
[#50]
Alvin York to the red courtesy phone
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