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Posted: 5/22/2020 8:00:44 PM EDT
From Aviation Safety Network

Pakistan International Airlines flight 8303, an Airbus A320, crashed on approach to Karachi-Jinnah International Airport (KHI), Pakistan. The airline stated there were 91 passengers on board and 7 crew members. The flight departed Lahore at 13:05 hours local time (08:05 UTC) and was expected to arrive at Karachi about 14:45 (09:45 UTC). The aircraft was cleared to land on runway 25L. At 14:35 the flight crew radioed that they were going around and requested another ILS approach to runway 25L. The controller instructed the flight to turn left heading 110 and climb to 3000 feet. Four minutes later the flight reported they had "lost engine(s)" and subsequently declared a Mayday. The controller cleared the flight to land with both runways (25L and 25R) available.

The aircraft crashed in a residential area named Model Colony, about 1360 m short of the threshold of runway 25L. The aircraft broke up and a large post-impact fire erupted.

ARY News reported that 76 people have been confirmed dead and three occupants have survived the accident. Rescue work is still in progress and the death toll is likely to rise.
View Quote
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 8:13:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Lost engine, run out of fuel?
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 8:14:50 PM EDT
[#2]
"Lost engines" sounds awfully bad.
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 8:39:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Attachment Attached File


Allegedly a photo taken just before crash. Lots of visible issues on bottom of engine nacelles and the RAT is deployed
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 8:39:37 PM EDT
[#4]
As per this video, they may have tried to land without the gear deployed, and performed a go around after the cowlings made contact with the runway. The damage from landing on the engines ultimately causing both to fail. Unbelievable if this is ultimately how this came to be.
Pakistan International Airlines Crash of Flight 8303 22 May 2020

Here's a photo of the aircraft just prior to crashing. Note the bottom of the cowlings and the RAT deployed.


Link Posted: 5/22/2020 10:09:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Insane.
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 1:11:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Corona saved the other big airplane company
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 2:48:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Corona saved the other big airplane company
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I don’t know. Boeing was depending on WB sales to allow for MAX certification. Now, with no WB sales...
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 4:15:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Corona saved the other big airplane company
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I feel Airbus is not at fault in this one.
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 5:43:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Strange one for sure.  Landing without the gear down in this day and age is a puzzler.
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 7:43:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Another subsequent video from Juan Browne (nom de YouTube "Blancolirio") on the PIA A320 crash, posted today (23-May-2020):
YouTube - Blancoliro "Pakistan Airlines #8303 Update"
PAKISTAN INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES #8303 UPDATE #2 23 May 2020


Link Posted: 5/23/2020 7:54:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
As per this video, they may have tried to land without the gear deployed, and performed a go around after the cowlings made contact with the runway. The damage from landing on the engines ultimately causing both to fail. Unbelievable if this is ultimately how this came to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwfkN5M-bSY
Here's a photo of the aircraft just prior to crashing. Note the bottom of the cowlings and the RAT deployed.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYoMGkZWsAAZXQH?format=jpg&name=large

View Quote
Wow

how is that even a thing?  Curious for the airbus crews to chime in.
Link Posted: 5/24/2020 9:33:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Strange one for sure.  Landing without the gear down in this day and age is a puzzler.
View Quote


I'm not the 320 expert, but in my limited experience the 320 can be slippery, especially if you're pushing it in pretty aggressively. I don't know how you'd slow it down without gear. The 321 can be a bear, and slowing down/going down isn't in the cards.

I heard from a friend someone said they might have settled after a go around, but at TOGA, the problem is usually over-rotation/tail-strike, not settling.



Link Posted: 5/24/2020 8:48:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Criminy... Here's video of the scrape marks on the runway, in the latest posting from Juan Browne (nom de YouTube "Blancolirio") on the PIA A320 crash, posted today (24-May-2020):
YouTube - Blancoliro "Pakistan Airlines #8303 Runway Evidence - Update #3"
Pakistan International Airlines #8303 Runway Evidence- Update #3 24 May 2020


Link Posted: 5/24/2020 10:10:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Criminy... Here's video of the scrape marks on the runway, in the latest posting from Juan Browne (nom de YouTube "Blancolirio") on the PIA A320 crash, posted today (24-May-2020):
YouTube - Blancoliro "Pakistan Airlines #8303 Runway Evidence - Update #3"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ0LY7ma1cA

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You’ve got to hand it to them, they were dead nuts on centerline
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 3:12:19 AM EDT
[#15]
I’m picturing it like some fast handed ace threw up the gear before a solid climb was established?     Maybe in addition to mismanagement of the mode selection?    Dunno, it’s the only scenario I can imagine.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 9:00:33 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I’m picturing it like some fast handed ace threw up the gear before a solid climb was established?     Maybe in addition to mismanagement of the mode selection?    Dunno, it’s the only scenario I can imagine.
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The Bus gear, again from limited exposure, aren't that fast. The LGCIU (landing gear control interface unit) acts in part as the squat switch and would prevent that, and there are two of them.

Honestly, the easiest explanation is a scrape and go, except the Fans would be jacked up and with possible catastrophic damage to the accessory gear boxes. Once AC1 and AC2 busses were offline, the RAT autodeploys.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 9:46:12 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The Bus gear, again from limited exposure, aren't that fast. The LGCIU (landing gear control interface unit) acts in part as the squat switch and would prevent that, and there are two of them.

Honestly, the easiest explanation is a scrap and go, except the Fans would be jacked up and with possible catastrophic damage to the accessory gear boxes. Once AC1 and AC2 busses were offline, the RAT autodeploys.
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I would expect that you sir are correct. Not sure if we can see the ground speed read outs on final or not with Flight Aware, but they would give us a very good indication of how stable or unstable the approach may have been. Of course, the black box readouts will ultimately tell us the story of what the aircraft configuration was, and also what was being said in the cockpit.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 10:50:56 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Strange one for sure.  Landing without the gear down in this day and age is a puzzler.
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How does that even happen? Aren't there blinking lights and ding ding/bong bongs going off? One could perhaps expect this in a beater 310, but an Airbus?

Odd.....
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 11:01:34 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
One could perhaps expect this in a beater 310, but an Airbus?
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Well....a 310 is an Airbus, too.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 11:25:02 AM EDT
[#20]
How do alarms not sound when landing without gear?  Thought the Airbus had all the computer safety protocols.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 11:33:04 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How do alarms not sound when landing without gear?  Thought the Airbus had all the computer safety protocols.
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A Ground Proximity Warning System can scream "Too low, gear" forever, and the gear chime can chime from 2500' Above Ground Level to impact, but if the human doesn't reach over and throw the gear down, its not coming down.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 12:21:13 PM EDT
[#22]
I wonder if the Pakis don't have EGPWS.  You'd think it would be common everywhere, but management hates spending money on stuff.  I'm not sure how the Airbus works. but I'd imagine you get too slow and the gear horn goes off though.  Unless it ain't working... or working correctly.

As far down as the contact with the runway was, a go around with gear retraction, and then settling down back on the runway before the engines spool up, sounds like it might not be out of the range of possibilities?
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 1:09:26 PM EDT
[#23]
From what dude in the video said, and that atc recording with the alarm in the background, sounds like they came in too fast.  Then the interlock prevents the gear from going down above 260 or 280 knots.

They overshoot the first half of the runway, bounce the engines off the runway a few times, before realizing somethings wrong and going around.

So it seems they botched the approach, ignored the alarm, and got back in the air after smacking the engines down a few times.  The damage from that eventually bringing them down.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 1:51:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Looks like some mighty fine piloting from that crew.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 2:19:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Then the interlock prevents the gear from going down above 260 or 280 knots.

So it seems they botched the approach, ignored the alarm, and got back in the air after smacking the engines down a few times.  
View Quote


The question I have is: if the gear switch is down above 260, will the gear come down when airspeed drops below 260?  Or would you have to cycle the gear handle?   If  they skipped off the runway and climbed out all while staying above 260, that would be difficult to do on purpose.  

I'm all about speculating, but this is so unusual it's more like throwing darts while blindfolded.  

Link Posted: 5/25/2020 4:52:54 PM EDT
[#26]
Airbus guy here, from the A-320 FCOM


L/G NOT DOWN ANNUNCIATION

Triggering Conditions:
L2 This alert triggers when:
1. L/G is not downlocked and radio height is lower than 750 ft and both engines N1 lower than
75% (or if engine shutdown N1 of remaining engine lower than 97%) or
2. L/G is not downlocked and radio height is lower than 750 ft and both engines are not at T.O
power and flaps at 1, 2, 3 or FULL or
3. L/G is not downlocked and flaps at 3 or FULL and both radio altimeters are failed.
Note: In the cases 2 and 3 above, the aural warning can only be cancelled by the
emergency cancel pushbutton.


Not sure how it went down, but maybe the crew didn’t have the jet configured at all and silenced the L/G not down annunciation.  Another possibility that could have happened is that they never got the warning because “terrain”. “Sink rate” “ pull-up” May have taken priority over the gear.  I dunno, might have to do some more digging in the manual.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 9:05:21 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I feel Airbus is not at fault in this one.
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It ain't about a feeling, there is always the ability the blame a manufacturer.  13th law of thermo, heat is elsewhere it ain't on me.
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 9:54:18 PM EDT
[#28]
The thing is that you can hear the gear warning in the ATC transmission.

How did they scrape the pods and then rotate to a climb attitude without scraping the tail?

Very strange!
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 10:17:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The thing is that you can hear the gear warning in the ATC transmission.

How did they scrape the pods and then rotate to a climb attitude without scraping the tail?

Very strange!
View Quote



I would imagine they came in way hot.  


In one of the videos of a later pass down the runway it looks like they touched down once scraping quite a long way down the runway,  lifted a short distance and sunk into the runway again before taking off again.  On the CFM56 on that plane the accessory drive and drive gearbox and such is right smack on the bottom of the fan.  A smack on the runway would destroy what is basically the heart of those engines.  

Link Posted: 5/25/2020 10:36:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Fiat automotive of the sky combined with 3rd world pilots...what could go wrong...
Link Posted: 5/26/2020 9:55:06 PM EDT
[#31]
The latest video from Juan Browne, posted to YouTube about 40 min ago (9:10 pm EDT, 26-May-2020). The story of this flight is almost unfathomable. Almost.

YouTube: Blancoliro "PIA #8303 Update #4 - Unstable Approach Profile"
PIA #8303 Update #4 Unstable Approach Profile

Link Posted: 5/27/2020 1:57:52 AM EDT
[#32]
Unstable is an understatement!

This was suicidal. It just boggles the mind!
Link Posted: 5/27/2020 8:21:21 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Unstable is an understatement!

This was suicidal. It just boggles the mind!
View Quote


YouTube is blocked where I'm at...what does it show?
Link Posted: 5/27/2020 8:38:22 AM EDT
[#34]
7000 ft a minute?  I'm wondering if one pilot was going for a suicide and the other one was fighting for control.
Link Posted: 5/27/2020 8:48:42 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


YouTube is blocked where I'm at...what does it show?
View Quote


Edit: If I recalled the video correctly:
Too high on approach (where plane should have been at 4000 on standard ILS approach it was at 10000).  Rapid decent (7000 FPM).  Airspeed too high over threshold for proper flap position or landing gear.
Link Posted: 5/27/2020 5:47:59 PM EDT
[#36]
7000fpm is 80mph. They were almost in freefall trying to hit the glideslope.
Link Posted: 5/27/2020 10:33:45 PM EDT
[#37]
210kts across the threshold.

Fucking idiots.  Don't ever get on a foreign airline from that part of the world.
Link Posted: 5/28/2020 8:26:30 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
210kts across the threshold.

Fucking idiots.  Don't ever get on a foreign airline from that part of the world.
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Not all are created the same.  

Same could be said about those who crashed airplanes from the other manufacturer not to long ago.
Link Posted: 5/28/2020 9:34:52 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Not all are created the same.  

Same could be said about those who crashed airplanes from the other manufacturer not to long ago.
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As GA dies, and many of the unforgiving jobs that Darwinistically attrited the unlucky or incapable are relegated to history, we are going down that road.

Eventually, the hard won quality aviator the US could produce will be history, and we'll have third world quality folks as well. Our quality spread will be just as broad as theirs.
Link Posted: 5/28/2020 7:00:00 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


As GA dies, and many of the unforgiving jobs that Darwinistically attrited the unlucky or incapable are relegated to history, we are going down that road.

Eventually, the hard won quality aviator the US could produce will be history, and we'll have third world quality folks as well. Our quality spread will be just as broad as theirs.
View Quote



Hopefully GA doesn't die, that sure would suck.  

The US isn't the only producer of quality pilots.  I've flown with (and fly with) British pilots who could rival just about any US pilot I've flown with.  I've flown with French, Taiwanese, Greek, Australian, Israeli, Canadian, and some others I probably can't remember that were more than capable.  

Back to the bus, it is still an airplane, it can be crashed.
Link Posted: 6/24/2020 10:23:10 AM EDT
[#41]
Long story short, crap approach, crap CRM, crap checklist usage, crap ATC.
(??) The reported weather at origin, en-route and at destination airfields was fit to undertake the flight.

(??) On 22 May 2020 PIA flight PK8303 took off from AIIAP Lahore at 13:05 hrs (as per the Lahore ATC recording / transcript). Departure from Lahore and cruising flight were uneventful. The crew did not follow standard callouts and did not observe CRM aspects during most parts of flight.

(??) “Area Control Karachi East” cleared PK8303 for “Nawabshah 2A” arrival procedure (STAR - Standard Terminal Arrival Route as published in AIP and JEPPESEN), and advised to expect ILS approach for runway 25L. The flight was later cleared at pilot’s discretion to report direct MAKLI (a waypoint 15 nautical miles at a radial of 075 from Karachi VOR) and descend to FL100, and later re-cleared for FL50.
The aircraft changed over to “Karachi Approach” and was cleared to descend down further to 3000 ft, by the time it reaches MAKLI.

(??) The aircraft ended up higher than the required descend profile. At MAKLI the aircraft was at 9780 ft and at about 245 knots IAS. In order to manage the descent and lose the additional height, “OPEN DES” mode was selected via the FCU, both autopilots were disengaged and speed brakes were extended.

(??) “Karachi Approach” inquired “confirm track mile comfortable for descend” and later advised to take an orbit, so that the aircraft can be adjusted on the required descend profile. No orbit was executed and the effort to intercept the glide slope and localizer (of ILS) was continued. The FDR indicated action of lowering of the landing gears at 7221 ft at around 10.5 Nautical Miles from Runway 25L.

(??) “Karachi Approach” advised repeatedly (twice to discontinue the approach and once cautioned) about excessive height. Landing approach was not discontinued. However, FDR shows action of raising of the landing gears at 1740 ft followed by retraction of the speed brakes (at a distance slightly less than 05 nautical miles from the runway 25L). At this time, the aircraft had intercepted the localizer as well as the glide slope. Flaps 1 were selected at 243 knots IAS, the landing gears and speed brakes were retracted. Over-speed and EGPWS warnings were then triggered.

(??) Figure hereunder depicts a few parameters of FDR data and the first approach profile of the aircraft in comparison with the required approach profile.

???????? : For the descent path, the altitude has been shifted to start from 84 ft in order to match the altitude of the runway at ground impact.

(??) Since the approach to land was continued, “Karachi Approach” instead of changing over the aircraft to “Aerodrome Control”, sought telephonic landing clearance from the “Aerodrome Control”. The “Aerodrome Control” conveyed a landing clearance of the aircraft (without observing the abnormality that the landing gears were not extended) to “Karachi Approach”. Subsequently “Karachi Approach” cleared the aircraft to land.

(??) At 500 ft, the FDR indicates: landing gear retracted, slat/flap configuration 3, airspeed 220 knots IAS, descent rate 2000 ft/min. According to the FDR and CVR recordings several warnings and alerts such as over-speed, landing gear not down and ground proximity alerts were disregarded. The landing was undertaken with landing gears retracted. The aircraft touched the runway surface on its engines. Flight crew applied reverse engine power and initiated a braking action. Both engines scrubbed the runway at various locations causing damage to both of them. Figures hereunder show selected screenshots of security / CCTV cameras footages of the aircraft engines touching the runway and showing sparks due to scrubbing, along with marks on the runway.

(??) The “Aerodrome Control” observed the scrubbing of engines with the runway but did not covey this abnormality to the aircraft. It was conveyed to the “Karachi Approach” on telephone. Subsequently “Karachi Approach” also did not relay this abnormality to the aircraft.

(??) The landing was discontinued and a go-around was executed. FDR recording
indicates a brief action of selection of landing gear lever to down position, which was immediately followed by its movement to up position. Intention to undertake another ILS approach for landing on runway 25L was conveyed, however shortly after the go-around both engines failed one by one. Ram Air Turbine (RAT) was deployed to power the essential systems. FDR data recording stopped during this timeframe (as per the designed limitation). The aircraft was unable to maintain required height. The aircrew declared the emergency situation that both engines were lost, and transmitted a “Mayday Call”. Evidences from the wreckage indicate reasons for right engine failure, however left engine requires further examination, and landing gear in extended position did not demonstrate any malfunction of the landing gear system.

(??) The aircraft crashed about 1340 meters short from runway 25L. It was a slow speed impact with high angle of attack, with aircraft configuration indicating landing gears extended, slats at step / position 1, and flaps retracted. The said configuration was ascertained and documented from the wreckage at the crash site (as the FDR data recording had stopped earlier).

(??) The aircraft was reportedly serviceable for the said flight; necessary scrutiny of the aircraft maintenance records / documents is under way. Captain and First Officer were adequately qualified and experienced to undertake the said flight; necessary scrutiny of the aircrew records / documents is under way.
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Attachment Attached File

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/24/2020 10:43:42 AM EDT
[#42]
Holy crap, talk about amateur hour.  


Link Posted: 6/24/2020 11:02:43 AM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Hopefully GA doesn't die, that sure would suck.  

The US isn't the only producer of quality pilots.  I've flown with (and fly with) British pilots who could rival just about any US pilot I've flown with.  I've flown with French, Taiwanese, Greek, Australian, Israeli, Canadian, and some others I probably can't remember that were more than capable.  

Back to the bus, it is still an airplane, it can be crashed.
View Quote


GA is nearly a zombie...basically just 25 years behind where it is in Europe and very possibly in a cost death spiral. Now, our regulatory oversight is FAR more permissive/enabling than JAA, where an active hatred of GA seems to be the order of the day. Additionally, GA has tremendous support in Congress and among contributors. Local non-turbine GA needs to learn how to show its worth to airlines, corporate aviation and military, and the PROTIP is that the aviation colleges are the biggest hurdle. GA has represented a tremendous hidden subsidy to the aviation world.

Other countries can produce quality aviators...agreed, because those guys often represent the astronauts of their talent pools, because being a professional aviator in those places is an exercise in recursive barriers to entry. Additionally, none of the places you mention can really build people in wholesale lots, with the possible exception of the surge capacity that the Canadians (and Australians, possibly) represent (and represented for a long time, both enabled significantly by their GA communities which like their gun cultures are surviving against all odds.)

The Bus does have enough gotchas to still kill you. A classmate of mine in my last initial was a TRI/TRE/Sim instructor/LCA for a Saudi based Airbus LCC. He's probably seen the most ways a Bus can be crashed. I can think of plenty of dual-failure scenarios that depending on conditions could kill nearly any crew.
Link Posted: 6/25/2020 9:13:38 AM EDT
[#44]
Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

More than 30% of civilian pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses and are not qualified to fly, the country's aviation minister revealed Wednesday.

Addressing Pakistan's National Assembly, Ghulam Sarwar Khan said 262 pilots in the country "did not take the exam themselves" and had paid someone else to sit it on their behalf.
"They don't have flying experience," he said.
Pakistan has 860 active pilots serving its domestic airlines -- including the country's Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flagship -- as well as a number of foreign carriers, Khan said.
PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately.
View Quote
Link Posted: 6/25/2020 9:16:19 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

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Given my experience with their ATC I wonder how many of them paid someone to take their exams.
Link Posted: 6/25/2020 12:23:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

View Quote


Well, at least the FAA has stopped that.

@Brasilia that's two nice-ish things I've said about the FAA in a row!
Link Posted: 6/25/2020 2:56:30 PM EDT
[#47]
PIA #8303 Preliminary Report Part 1 (of 2)


PIA #8303 Preliminary Report Part II
Link Posted: 6/25/2020 10:42:43 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Well, at least the FAA has stopped that.

@Brasilia that's two nice-ish things I've said about the FAA in a row!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says



Well, at least the FAA has stopped that.

@Brasilia that's two nice-ish things I've said about the FAA in a row!
@Screechjet1

I know! I'm keeping track
Link Posted: 6/27/2020 8:47:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 6/27/2020 11:56:08 PM EDT
[#50]
Amazing that the crew attempted reverse thrust and braking action after touchdown(on the engine nacelles).    These guys must have been absolutely clueless.
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