Well, me and the better half signed up to get our open water certs next weekend. (Two day accelerated course - been studying our books at home)

If we want to dive locally, I can see a need to get a high altitude diving cert and dry suit cert pretty quick (nearest three lakes are at 4k, 5k and 9k feet with us living at 5k) just so we can stay in practice since taking trips to dive once a month or every couple months isn't too much in the cards.

As far as gear goes, other than the obvious risks of inheriting other peoples problems, what should I look out for in used gear? It looks like I can get a whole lot more bang for my buck and get gear several tiers above entry level used from ebay and other sources.

Put
Another
Dollar
In


Spend the time and do a full course with a more indepth organization like NAUI or IANTD. Learn Nitrox.

To air is human, to Nitrox is divine.

Two days period? How is that even possible? Is this some resort course? Fuck that.

Hell, even PADI shops in the Chicago are spend two days in the pool and then two days at the quarry, in addition to any classroom time.

That course will only make you able to dive tropical. I got certified OW and drysuit at the same time in a cold, low viz Midwestern quarry. In October.

This is an accelerated PADI Open Water course, classroom is basically on your own, with a little classroom and all your confined and open water dives over the weekend.

Obviously not going to buy gear until after the certification, but just starting to plan and look at the own gear side of things.

There are divable hot springs nearby (Homestead Crater, UT) where we will be doing our open dives and they do have a heated pool that you can use whenever there isn't a class actively occurring. But that will just hold me over until advanced open water, altitude and drysuit.

We’re trying to tell you this accelerated class is NOT a good idea. At the minimum, class needs to be four days. Two pool, two open water.

I'm right on the edge of agreeing with you. Even as a PADI instructor I won't defend some of the shitty practices of other instructors/dives shops out there.

The online course is actually pretty thorough and the student gets out of it what they put into it. However, even having done all of the book work beforehand, 2-days is pushing it depending on the start and stop times.

The instructor should do a quick review based on possible lower test scores for certain sections as it might indicate the student didn't have a full grasp of the topic/theories. They should at least give a brief rundown of the more important topics. Confined water should start with a swim and treading water. That can burn up 30-60 minutes.

To knock out all 5 of the confined water sections takes, IIRC, a  minimum of 3-5 hours depending on how quick the students grasp the concepts and the student to instructor ratios.Some instructors will max out how many people they're allowed to teach without an assistant/DM. I've never taught a class of more than three people and that was for AOW. OW I've only done two students at a time... but I have the luxury of time and not working for a dive shop.

PADI's rules are you cannot do more than 2 open water dives if you did confined water the same day. An open water dive should be at least 20 minutes.
So, while it's possible, they're really not doing you a favor by rushing through it. 3 days, IMHO, should be the minimum. That allows plenty of time for confined water and maybe one open water dive and then the other 3 can be spread out over 2 days.

OP, if the course is local there's no reason not to tell them you want to pace it a little slower. If they want to try to charge you more for taking your time and mastering all of the skills, you can go somewhere else and feel free to report them to PADI. They love that. If you're doing it at a vacation resort or something and you have the time to add another day you can try. Some places are probably flakey about it, but I imagine the industry is hurting with COVID and shouldn't be over crowded right now.

For used gear, buying on eBay is a gamble with anything to include dive gear.
I've been lucky buy two wings from eBay that I still use.
Make sure the seller accepts full returns/refunds. I wouldn't buy anything used from a dive shop. It's worse than buying a used rental car.

Things to ask / look out for:
- Was the BC stored while inflated? When you get it, check to make sure the bladder and fittings aren't falling apart. Personal experience with that. The collar on the inflator little crumbled apart.
- Did they use the equipment in salt or fresh water? Salt will wear some parts down quicker, especially if they weren't rinsed/cleaned in fresh water after use.
- Check all the webbing, zippers, and buckles to make sure nothing is broken, torn, sticking, etc.
- Make sure the weight pockets are there and actually click into the retention piece
- Fins... make sure the buckles are working (open foot) and that the piece that goes on the post stays on. Seen a lot of fins where, if they have releasable buckles, that piece falls right off the fins when they unbuckle. Hope that makes sense.
- Regs... make sure the hoses aren't dried out and that they're not bulging at the ends indicating they're might be ready to blow out. Make sure it breathes, doesn't free-flow, and that they're not all gunked up. Make sure the mouth piece isn't chewed through. You should almost definitely have them serviced after you buy them if the seller didn't do it. SPG should read the pressure (you'd need another set or pressure tester to verify this). Make sure the LP hose for the inflator fits whatever BCD you are using.
- Don't buy an Air2.... they're garbage, are always the first thing to fail, and not terrible practical when they actually need to be used.
- Computer... I'm a die-hard Shearwater person so I'm going to say buy once cry once. The SW Peregrine is their newest, "entry-level" computer at $450.
- Buy a new mask. There's no reason to cheap out on that. Get one that fits well. Trying different masks on in a LDS only gets you so far, sucking it to your face. If the dive shop has a few different types of masks they use with their rental gear, as the instructor to bring a few to try out before you commit to buying one. Masks can be a little pricey so it's nice to get one you know will not make you miserable.

Hope this helps.

I agree PADI seems to be setup to nickel and dime you to death, but unfortunately other options aren't accessible to us. We are fairly remote. The class is usually 4 days. I do plan on pursuing tech and ultimately search and recovery diving - I did everything else in SAR (technical rescue, swiftwater rescue tech, cave rescue, dive tender, helicopter rappels/short hauls, etc.)

Don’t go with PADI for tech. They only seemed to have jumped on the bandwagon when they saw it was profitable.

Thank you for laying that all out and explaining. I will make sure the instructor is willing to go over anything offline. Course is 08 to 1700 both days to my understanding, and will be four students and an instructor and an additional divemaster/assistant instructor. We both bought new masks/fins/boots/snorkels. (Took me a few minutes to figure out the difference in dive fins, versus the shredders we used for swiftwater.) We both tried on about 10-15 masks, including testing all of it in the pool in the shop. I was really picky about the mask as I wear contacts, and I can't easily swap between glasses and contacts. (I'm also blind as a bat/can't count fingers at arms length without them.) He offered a package of the mask/fins/snorkel/boots for about $335, and it was any mask in the store. Ended up with a nice UV tinted/ANSI rated mask that took up a large portion of that cost, as well as the seawing nova fins.)

Oh, no! Not what I refer to as the “robot fins.” I seriously do NOT get what the attraction is.

Did my Tec-40, 45, and 50 with PADI. Again... depends on the instructor. The course material is pretty much a copy paste job of the industry standard.
I haven't died... so I guess I learned what I needed to.

Been using the same busted ass Viper fins for about 7 years. Just switched to Nova fins after trying my dive buddy's and realizing what I've been missing.
To each his own. FWIW SP apparently fixed the issue of those breaking at the bend/hinge point years ago.
Not sure what you mean by "robot". Is it the design or the function?

It’s the design. The way they’re hinged.

The PADI (5 star) shop I did my DM at does OW in a day and a half. 8am to 1030ish in the pool, on the boat at noon, in the water at 1230, out at 215.  Next day, on the boat at 815, in the water at 845, out of the water by 1100.     They've been reported numerous times, and the only thing that's happened from PADI is for the reporters to be threatened with loss of pro status.

Good luck on your journey.

I wish I could dive. I could never make it past the open water dives. I had trouble clearing even in the pool. One open water dive damn near made me wanna die. I never thought 40' could be so bad. I came out of the water and my mask was filled with blood.

Years later my ENT said (post surgery) I should be able to try it again. I keep getting tempted but haven't tried.

If the ENT says you're good, no reason in the world not to try it. Especially now that getting certified costs less than a case of ammo.

Which 5 star shop is that? Sounds like a place in the Keys.

That's definitely too short... and as much as I like to think PADI enforces their own rules with an iron fist, I guess it makes more sense for an incredibly successful pyramid scheme like PADI not to screw with their revenue source.

My better half was junior certified, as well as a nationally ranked swimmer in college, but she had to have ear surgery a few years back. While we were playing around, she didn't have issues clearing at the bottom, and her surgeon cleared her to dive, but we will have to take it slow and feel it out. Gonna be disappointed if she can't, but rather her healthy and safe than anything else.

And part of why I'm coming here is the dive shop owner that was helping us when I started asking about gear...well, he tried to convince me that I had to have the HUD DC, and nothing else would suffice. "Thanks man, I'm gonna go home and do my research and wait til after I certify to buy any actual gear."

My better half piped up, "I bet he goes home and starts making spreadsheets..."

She was right.

Do you have spreadsheets for the ammo stash?

Sign up over on Scubaboard when you’re ready to buy. Lot of good used postings over there.

Plus there are a number of groups on FB.

I second buying used gear online, but feel free to ask us here what you're looking at. I went the "brand new BC" route within six months of getting certified and then within another six months, I was buying a backplate and wing online, doubles, nicer wetsuit, computer, etc.

On the computer note - just shut up about budget options that are within $100 of it, and get a Peregrine. Seriously. I don't care what anyone else told you about their Suunto, Mares, etc. computers... buy once, cry once. There's very little difference in those computers and Shearwater's higher-end models, so unless you can find a used Petrel for under $400... I'd just go with the Peregrine and be done with it.

Peregrine only. Other computers don’t compare.

Ocean Extreme in North Little Rock, AR.

I watched them take a dive team from rescue to MSD in 7 hours (2 hours of that was lunch) at the lake and about 90 minutes the next morning for equipment specialist.

Same here. I went from a vest (borrowed) to a Dive Rite TransPac, to a BP/W.
I've see a lot of people where I live/dive eventually switch to a BP/W as well.
It's a little awkward doing an OW class in one, but it's not impossible. It's funny though, that one of the required skills for PADI (not sure about other agencies) is dropping weight pouches. Depending on the setup, you might not have ditchable weights. I would think as an industry they would account for this. Not every diver uses that type of setup and to pigeon hole students into using a certain type of equipment because that's how the course is structured seems kind of narrow minded.
100%... I've dove with a lot of people on different computers and the difference in bottom time, even on multiple dives, isn't that big a difference. But more often than not, my Perdix has put me in deco longer than someone on a Suunto. Granted that's at least partly due to my conservatism settings, and I'm not sure that's even a selling point for a Suunto. I'd rather my computer not bend me, which it definitely won't.

The only features that may be considered a downside to the Peregrine are no AI (probably not a huge deal for entry level) and digital compass. The compass is a nice backup, but I'd never nav with it over an analog compass, especially on a DPV. I only just start using AI and if I'm being honest, I love it. But if you don't know what you're missing...

Do you mean Divemaster or Master Diver? Sometimes people mix those up.
I've never taught MSD, but it's basically a culmination of specialties that could be done before Rescue.
The time it takes varies on what courses they're doing, but I'm almost certain the required dives cannot be combined/linked so much so that it could be knocked out in a day.
Even with the "credit" they give of using the Adventure Dive from AOW toward one of the MSD specialty dives.

It's really nothing more than a money-grab cert, but if someone likes collecting cert cards it's awesome!!

I got certified in a BP/W. It can be done. The only part that was a little weird was the crotch strap in the uw removal. I just practiced in my LR for a half hour the morning of that pool session so I could do it by feel and it was fine.

MSD. They went from no specialties to 4 full specialties in a partial day, and a fifth the next day. One of them was of course deep. And they never went below 20 feet. The shop tells people that PADI gives them an exemption due to trees in the lake.

I've done a lot of certs while in my BP/W and have certified one person in one. And yes, the UW removal is a PITA... even more so with a long hose and short hose on a necklace... but not impossible.
That's insane. And if PADI allows is, it's a testament of their negative reputation for being a cash grab first and a scuba certification agency second.

Well, starting to look at more specific gear and I think im debating between the knighthawk and the Zeagle ranger BCDs. Zeagle ranger seems to have a little more modularity and built in pockets and looks a little more future proof as far as future certifications. (Its also not phased out like the knighthawk appears to be.) The only leg up seems to be the knighthawk has a hard backplate, and the zeagle does not.

So on that front, looking at the Onyx regs (DIN with yoke adapter?), Envoy octo, and still debating on the DC. Sorta want to buy once/cry once with something AI, but don't want to spend more on the DC then I do on all my other gear combined. That Peregrine sure looks nice - how will it limit me in the future as my knowledge/cert grows?

The Peregrine doesn’t do Trimix. You can use it for deco dives requiring up to 3 gasses up to 100% O2. So you can go pretty far with it.

Don’t buy a Ranger new. They are super spendy - $900 new? A local buddy got one used for $250. They are plentiful on the used market. Look on ScubaBoard. Great source fkr used gear.

I don’t know about Zeagle regs. I have AquaLung and Apeks.

Looking pretty much exclusively used. Buying used gets me way further, cheaper than a new very entry-level rig. I tend to buy most things used. Heh.

And don’t worry about air integrated on the computer. Just get the Peregrine.

Get a brass and glass SPG. Wrist compass.

If you're looking for modularity, don't bother looking at jacket BCDs. I never understand the appeal of the Zeagle Ranger besides maybe a cool name.
Not sure you'd find many of these used but I see a lot of people happy where I am pretty happy with the Aqualung Outlaw or Rogue.
If you have the luxury of time set up a search on eBay for whatever brand/model you're looking for with alerts as soon as they're posted. I did this with Oxycheq 18# wings and managed to grab two (at different times) for $200.

Also, if you have time, you can try out different types. So many people I know have received this advice, rushed into a buy on the BCDs you mentioned, and 6-12 months later ended up getting a backplate and wing. FWIW, the regulators that come in that package seem pretty nice for the price. No personal experience though. Check Scubaboard for possible reviews.

My personal experience. steer clear of anything Mares. I have a Mares BCD, regulator, and fins and they're all garbage.
I'm more or less a Scubapro fanboy, so I'll pitch the MK25/G260 all day long. That being said, I also own Dive Rite XT and Aqualung Legend regs that work just fine. I also had a HOG D3/Zenith reg set that I wouldn't recommend. Maybe I got a bad one, but I sent it in for service and had the same problems when I got it back.

@JSteensen

You should be able to find a steel BP for no more than $100 used. Harness webbing and hardware isn't that much. Easy to buy that new. Wings can easily be found used. Probably no more 30lb wing should work for you diving cold.

Word of caution on a BP for your wife - if she is short, say under 5'5" a regular backplate may be too long for her. That was what happened with me. I'm 5'5" with a short torso. A regular sized plate puts the belt at my hips and almost falling off. Here's the problem - short plates are unicorns used and pricey new. I paid something like $225 for mine new. Halcyon is not cheap.

If you guys decide to go the BP/W route, you get yours first and your wife then tries yours on, to make sure of BP length.

Utah sucks for diving. And I live here too. Hopefully the 'Rona will chill and I will be able to remedy that!

Homestead: a couple dives and I already had mineral build up!!!

Think of your gear as LIFE SUPPORT EQUIPMENT in a TOXIC ENVIRONMENT.

 You can find it cheap, used (abused) and even from secondary sellers but the warranty may not transfer.

The place you purchase your gear from, may also be the place you get it annually serviced, and may offer a deal.

ALSO: Bonus for Utah there is a HUISH outdoors office in SLC and before COVID they had a walk-in service and modification department - which is nice!  My wife had her Zeagle BCD modified there!

I'm going to be devil's advocate on the "buy what your local shop sells so you can get it serviced" train of thought... it's only something you need to worry about until you're familiar enough with your own equipment to check it.

Most tech gear manufacturers also make equipment suitable for recreational diving (backplate/wing combos, for example) and the stuff is SIMPLE to work on, not to mention better quality than your normal jacket-style BCD that may cost WAY more for replacement parts and/or service... not to mention the lack of modularity and/or the ability to grow with your diving if you progress to more advanced levels (and I'll be waiting for people that say "that's not necessary for a new diver," yet encouraging them to not buy bottom-of-the-barrel stuff in the same breath). Almost any part on most tech setups can be replaced individually, rather than some unit that the entire bladder/jacket/BC itself is one homogenous blob...

Every time I've mailed gear back to the manufacturer to have it checked or parts replaced, they went above and beyond in getting it back out ASAP. They're typically smaller businesses with an understanding of the art of great customer service.


Example: I purchased a used light from Light Monkey this week, asked them to convert it from a normal backmount-style canister setup, to a sidemount canister setup. Normally that's a $150 charge if you send your own light in to have it done. They did it for $100 and had it shipped UPS to me the next day, it arrived the second day after I spoke with them. Last time I sent gear into Dive Rite for service, I had it back in three days. Granted, I live about 85 miles away from their office so shipping will always be quick, but I had it BACK within three full days.

When it comes to items like regulators or computers... you want to pick somewhere that will service them locally (although computers will need to go to the manufacturer), because those are arguably more difficult (especially as a newbie) than replacing a piece of hose or something. I feel like the dive industry as a whole uses that message because they benefit from it, not because it's what's best for individuals.

@JSteensen

Don't know if you know this, but you can get masks with replaceable prescription lenses. The one I got had individual lenses so you can do -3.50 on the left and -2.00 on the right (for example) . They were only in 0.50 intervals and no astigmatism correction, but way better than nothing.

Without reading further for an explanation, I agree.

Seems VERY shady.

Even if you remove the bookwork(which is mostly E-learning now due to covid), you have 2 days in the pool, and two days with 4 dives total in open water.  

Yes and no.

I had a Puck Pro for a year and it worked fine, and did what I needed it to do.  Showed me depth and NDL.  Reliable.

That said, I've moved to a Teric and it's amazing.  If the budget allows for a Peregrine for a noob, I agree, do it.  Shearwater makes the best product in the industry, IMO.

But a "cheapo" like a Puck Pro or a Leonardo will work just fine if there's no money left.

So, the class was great, even though I went in a little skeptical based on the feedback here. We did all our bookwork in advance, so classroom was limited to reviewing the knowledge reviews, quizzes and test, and a good hour of training on dive tables and logging. We followed it up with pool dives, then a quick lunch and open water dive 1 and 2 a semi-local hot spring. (it was in the low 40s OAT and rainy/windy this weekend, so the hot spring was a very good plan.) Same thing for day 2, with open water 3 and 4. We covered all the skills in the book, and I am confident to handle all the skills we learned in the wild. We had a great time, and learned a ton. It was only four students with the instructor and divemaster, so lots and lots of 1 on 1 instruction when it came to pool and open water, and plenty of time for questions and to practice a skill we weren't quite sure we mastered.

If all us students hadn't actually studied ahead of time, it probably wouldn't have been enough time. But the fact that all four of us were motivated and had a solid understanding of the theory side (vs the practical as learned in the pool/OW) made this an excellent class.

I have worn nothing but contacts for so many years that I have a very very hard time transitioning from contacts to glasses and back. It usually takes me 6-8 hours to not be uncomfortable. That said, I had zero problems with the contacts, and had spares with me just in case. (Just made sure I had my eyes closed any time I had my mask flooded/off, and didn't open them until I was sure it was clear.)

Sounds like you had a good time.

My GF did it with contacts too.  She just kept her eyes shut during the mask off/flooding portion.

Holy fuck, they’re still teaching tables? OP, pretty much no one uses tables in real life these days.

That’s what dive computers are for. I never learned tables and I’m still alive. All my rec classes have been through SDI, which required computers from day one.

Glad class went well. Now get your butts out and dive.

I'm glad to have learned the tables as a backup to the dive computer, to be honest. That said, I don't see using them often in the future, but it did help my little engineering brain understand the why side of what the computer tells me.

I think the tables can be taught as a cursory thing so that you can understand what's going on and the relationship between time/depth/ndl/residual and how they all tie together, but they're pointless for actually diving with.  Computers are safer and give you more time.

Ok...
1.


2. What the fuck!! I don't teach tables. It's not a requirement and in 7 years I've never used them nor seen anyone that has. The technology is reliable and in most ways you're getting a much more accurate dive following your computer.

3. There are some purist gatekeepers out there that will say you're not a real diver unless you know how to use tables. To that I say... get a backup computer. Then you even less likely to need to ever use them.

4. OP... that seems really accelerated, but if you're happy with how it all turned out then that's all that matters.

I love diving. Used to dive in cold freezing water in NorCal. Specifically Monterey Bay and Point Reyes. Then I almost died twice because of freak accidents. Then switched over to free diving, much safer and fun. Plus you get to harvest the ocean!

Its both our dreams to dive Monterey Bay, but we are far from doing that yet.

Does anywhere online offer a discount on 2X Shearwater Peregrines? Need to finish getting all our personal kit together and ready, as well as wetsuits.

We just signed up for advanced open water and nitrox (My better half surprised me. Heh.) Going to do it up at blue lake. Waiting for her to get back from the dive shop to give me more info.

Nice! Nope prices will be the same everywhere. Strongly suggest you order from Dive Gear Express.