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Posted: 9/6/2020 4:10:19 PM EDT
[#1]
I would get an attorney familiar with NFA.
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Posted: 9/6/2020 4:10:56 PM EDT
[#2]
he is the trustee, cant he just change the successor?
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Posted: 9/6/2020 4:17:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Remove her - done.
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Posted: 9/6/2020 4:33:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Remove her - done. That’s what I said, but I think there is some communal property bull shit...but she can’t legally own the items anyway...so? I’ve already told him to contact an NFA attorney, but I just wanted to Hive’s opinion also. |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 5:43:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Your friend should go back to the attorney who drafted the trust (hopefully he actually used an attorney and not a trust in the box or some DIY online thing). Most likely the trust doesn't have to be dissolved BUT as part of the divorce she is entitled to half the value of the firearms in the trust since they'll be included in the marital assets. Since she can't have the guns then her STB-ex will have to give up some other money or property to compensate.
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Posted: 9/6/2020 6:11:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Don’t know about Arizona divorce law, but can’t your friend pay her one-half the value of the
items in the trust and then delete her from the trust? |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 6:37:07 PM EDT
[#7]
I also live in a community property state... the above should satisfy the rules. Pay her half the value of the items held in the trust that were obtained after the date of marriage, terminate her off the trust, and move on.
I am not a lawyer. |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 6:39:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Remove her - done. I would have him speak to an NFA trust lawyer, but if should be as simple as amending the trust naming a different successor. |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 6:41:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Tell your buddy to have the lawyer provide the law or case law that state a trust has to be dissolved. A trust is a legal entity it would be akin to killing off their child.
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Posted: 9/6/2020 7:38:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Remove her - done. This. |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 8:49:25 PM EDT
[#11]
IANAL, generally the only time a trust would be dissolved in such instance would be if the 2 parties couldn't settled on value, the assets would be forced to sell. But even then I don't believe that would force dissolution of the trust, just sale of assets.
That being said, if items are all SBR, suppressor etc, it should be pretty easy to list them at price paid and get her to STFU. MGs might make it a bit harder to set value but I would think 3 appraisals would be enough. He may have to throw some "shut up money" her way to get things to go smoothly (if she wants to be a pain she can just not agree to a value) but often that is necessary in such matters. Ultimately, it may be worth getting a lawyer letter that explains that dissolving the trust will not only cost money (transfer fees) but will then make the items less valuable on a settlement sheet if OP wants to keep them bc of the future transfer fees to get them back in a trust. |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 8:54:58 PM EDT
[#12]
If the property belongs to the Trust, why would he have to split the assets of the Trust with her as his wife in a divorce ?
Either the property is his, or it belongs to the Trust, was my understanding of how Trusts work. As the Grantor/Trustee he controls the property and how it's used, but the property belongs to the Trust as a legal entity. ETA: 30 seconds on google reveals divorce courts see it differently apparently and treat the assets of a revocable trust the same as the assets of the Grantor. Ughh... the only exception being if the Trust was established and purchased or funded the assets prior to the marriage. |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 8:59:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IANAL, generally the only time a trust would be dissolved in such instance would be if the 2 parties couldn't settled on value, the assets would be forced to sell. But even then I don't believe that would force dissolution of the trust, just sale of assets. That being said, if items are all SBR, suppressor etc, it should be pretty easy to list them at price paid and get her to STFU. MGs might make it a bit harder to set value but I would think 3 appraisals would be enough. He may have to throw some "shut up money" her way to get things to go smoothly (if she wants to be a pain she can just not agree to a value) but often that is necessary in such matters. Ultimately, it may be worth getting a lawyer letter that explains that dissolving the trust will not only cost money (transfer fees) but will then make the items less valuable on a settlement sheet if OP wants to keep them bc of the future transfer fees to get them back in a trust. Yes, this pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. He's contacted an attorney specializing in NFA trusts, so hopefully he can settle it. The big problem is his wife's attorney has absolutely no idea what an NFA item is, let a lone what a prohibited possessor is. |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 9:16:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what I said, but I think there is some communal property bull shit...but she can't legally own the items anyway...so? I've already told him to contact an NFA attorney, but I just wanted to Hive's opinion also. Sounds like her lawyers are being vindictive and his divorce lawyers don't understand firearms law too well. The secret of dealing with lawyers is in the phrasing of the question. Don't ask "can I ______" because the answer will often be "no" since lawyers are risk averse. Ask "How can I ______". That gets them thinking. The answer still might be "you can't" but it will be a better thought out answer. |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 9:50:44 PM EDT
[#15]
Were marital assets used to purchase the items in the trust? May make a difference. It’s something his divorce lawyer should handle.
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Posted: 9/6/2020 10:16:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That makes no sense. Items in the Trust are owned by the Trust, not by the individual Trustees. That's the whole point of a Trust. Marital assets were used to purchase the firearms that went into the trust, hence the wife gets half. If the assets were in the trust before the marriage then they wouldn't be considered. That said I would have a local FFL appraise the firearms in the trust, as used suppressors and SBR's typically are worth quite a bit less than new ones because transferring them to an out-of-state non-licensee buyer requires two $200 tax stamps. |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 10:46:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That said I would have a local FFL appraise the firearms in the trust, as used suppressors and SBR's typically are worth quite a bit less than new ones because transferring them to an out-of-state non-licensee buyer requires two $200 tax stamps. Generally while appraisals can set value for nearly all items, there are certain items where the items have poor resale value and courts (or soon-to-be ex's) may use that as leverage for a higher value on a balance sheet. IE, when my aunt got divorced her husband had several appraisals stating his racecar was worth only $10k. My aunt pulled out 10 years worth of receipts totalling over $80,000 her ex had spent on racecar parts and such. He was trying to get cash out of the divorce bc she wanted to keep the house. In the end, after plenty of fighting, she got the house and didn't pay cash bc she had those receipts. While OP can certainly get appraisals and try to use those, he may have to settle and let purchase price be the "value". |
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Posted: 9/6/2020 11:31:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IE, when my aunt got divorced her husband had several appraisals stating his racecar was worth only $10k. My aunt pulled out 10 years worth of receipts totalling over $80,000 her ex had spent on racecar parts and such. He was trying to get cash out of the divorce bc she wanted to keep the house. In the end, after plenty of fighting, she got the house and didn't pay cash bc she had those receipts. I wish that worked with car insurance after an accident.  |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 12:30:43 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wish that worked with car insurance after an accident. Sure would be nice! Although I have heard of limited success with showing receipts for recent repairs. IE, you just had transmission rebuilt 3 months prior to total loss accident in a $5k car. Trans job cost $2k. Insurance statement says they are paying $5k. Claimant sends receipts for repairs and insurance adjusts to $6000. Doesn't cover all costs but it's better than nothing. I had similar happen to me. My wife was involved in a multi-vehicle accident, she was the only party that had zero fault. Side-swipe style damage that I intended to repair myself. Insurance adjuster said $2700. I got a free quote from a body shop and they said $4100. Insurance cut me a check for $3700 after looking over the independent quote. I paid $300 for a used door of same color (only thing that had major physical damage) and buffed the paint on the rest of that side which removed 80% of the damage. Insurance ended up recovering that plus legal fees in the court battle where all other parties shared fault. |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 1:03:49 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally while appraisals can set value for nearly all items, there are certain items where the items have poor resale value and courts (or soon-to-be ex's) may use that as leverage for a higher value on a balance sheet. IE, when my aunt got divorced her husband had several appraisals stating his racecar was worth only $10k. My aunt pulled out 10 years worth of receipts totalling over $80,000 her ex had spent on racecar parts and such. He was trying to get cash out of the divorce bc she wanted to keep the house. In the end, after plenty of fighting, she got the house and didn't pay cash bc she had those receipts. While OP can certainly get appraisals and try to use those, he may have to settle and let purchase price be the "value". This is the best part, I forgot...this is great news. So, a few months ago I appraised all his firearms, at the behest of his STB-ex. I did a fair appraisal (at prices pre-covid panic). I've worked in the gun business for over 20 years, so I'm not just some random person doing the appraiser for her...but it seriously backfired on her. Turns out, she thinks low-balling the actual value helps her somehow and she didn't like my real life appraisal, so she got a second opinion from some local pawn shop (fyi, she's an idiot). So, they quote her prices for what they would buy the items, and surprise, it's a tiny fraction of my appraisal. That's the quote she insisted upon. So, his $60K gun collection, officially in filed court documents, is now worth $4K. |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 1:29:05 AM EDT
[#21]
Throw her 2k and tell her to stfu... stupid should hurt sometimes. This is one of those times. Lol
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Posted: 9/7/2020 8:27:18 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is the best part, I forgot...this is great news. So, a few months ago I appraised all his firearms, at the behest of his STB-ex. I did a fair appraisal (at prices pre-covid panic). I've worked in the gun business for over 20 years, so I'm not just some random person doing the appraiser for her...but it seriously backfired on her. Turns out, she thinks low-balling the actual value helps her somehow and she didn't like my real life appraisal, so she got a second opinion from some local pawn shop (fyi, she's an idiot). So, they quote her prices for what they would buy the items, and surprise, it's a tiny fraction of my appraisal. That's the quote she insisted upon. So, his $60K gun collection, officially in filed court documents, is now worth $4K.  |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 8:32:50 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s what I said, but I think there is some communal property bull shit...but she can’t legally own the items anyway...so? I’ve already told him to contact an NFA attorney, but I just wanted to Hive’s opinion also. You’re talking marital property here. Even if it’s owned by the trust, if it was accumulated during the marriage it belongs to both parties and is accounted for during the distribution of assets during the divorce. No need to dissolve the trust, just set the properties’ distribution during mediation/trial or sell it and distribute the funds. |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 9:32:44 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is the best part, I forgot...this is great news. So, a few months ago I appraised all his firearms, at the behest of his STB-ex. I did a fair appraisal (at prices pre-covid panic). I've worked in the gun business for over 20 years, so I'm not just some random person doing the appraiser for her...but it seriously backfired on her. Turns out, she thinks low-balling the actual value helps her somehow and she didn't like my real life appraisal, so she got a second opinion from some local pawn shop (fyi, she's an idiot). So, they quote her prices for what they would buy the items, and surprise, it's a tiny fraction of my appraisal. That's the quote she insisted upon. So, his $60K gun collection, officially in filed court documents, is now worth $4K. I had mine valued by a local shop. My ex tried to value my collection at some crazy over the top price. Told the mediator if that’s what she wants to value it at, fine, but it goes on her side of the balance sheet. She backed off very quickly and went with my valuation. |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 10:00:27 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. If he is the grantor/trustee, and she is nothing more than a successor, she can be removed at will. The whole communal property thing is BS. That is the whole idea of a trust, to protect assets. I would have him speak to an NFA trust lawyer, but if should be as simple as amending the trust naming a different successor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Remove her - done. I would have him speak to an NFA trust lawyer, but if should be as simple as amending the trust naming a different successor. +1 Internets Authority is correct IMHO. Gotta love the irony  The trust protects the assets from divorce risks. He doesn't own the items to give, the trust does. Still he should check with who did his trust or an NFA attorney.
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Posted: 9/7/2020 2:04:14 PM EDT
[#26]
Do you mean successor trustee or beneficiary? Those are two different things.
In either case, his lawyer should advise him as trusts, divorces and property (including how community property is treated) are all state law matters and vary by state. If his divorce lawyer needs advice on how to deal with a trust, he/she can get advice from a competent trust attorney. |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 2:18:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s what I said, but I think there is some communal property bull shit...but she can’t legally own the items anyway...so? I’ve already told him to contact an NFA attorney, but I just wanted to Hive’s opinion also. She may not be able to own them but they're still assets and are community property. If there's not a court order freezing assets and trusts, take her off immediately. If there is a court order, have his lawyer file a motion to removed her from the trust as a prohibited person but acknowledge the value of the assets for when it comes to the distribution of assets. Stamps have no value as they are not transferable, but the SBR and Cans do have a market value, usually significantly lower than the price paid. In my divorce, the judge valued my ARa at the used value, $400 each if I recall. |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 9:26:43 PM EDT
[#28]
I have nothing to add other than this
you said her lawyer once your body to dissolve the trust. her lawyer can go fuck herself, it's what the judge decides I am not a lawyer and I am not a smart man but I probably have $200,000 in machine guns and a house before my divorce and after my divorce I still have $200,000 in machine guns and a house |
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