Was talking about life and other things with my wife the other night, and the topic turned to my faith. Got a little bit heated, but the nuts and bolts are that my wife is a Christian, wants to raise our son as a Christian, and find a church home. I have zero problems with this, except my faith has changed over the past decade and as the “leader” of our home, she is disappointed in that change, knows I won’t get anything out of a church service, and while I would support them, it’s not something I believe and so the support would only have “so much” behind it.

My belief: I once believed in an omnipotent God, who sent his son, Jesus, to be sacrificed in order to absolve all who accepted him of their sins and earn entry into Heaven after the Rapture. Over time, I have lost most of that belief. I DO believe that a higher power spun this universe into being by their own hand. But the more I think about the vastness of this universe, and how small we really are, I have come to the conclusion that we are intelligently made for a purpose that we will never fully understand. This universe is too awesome in so many ways to have just happened with no spark. I believe the universe was created to be this vast on purpose, so that we couldn’t interact with other civilizations that were created.

I believe that if God once spoke to us, he doesn’t anymore. I can’t see a child dying of cancer, ISIS terrorists throwing gay Iraqis off of roofs, or the wanton genocide of humans by Nazis and Communists as part of the bigger plan of a benevolent Creator. Humanity has free will (by design or not, I don’t know), and nature isn’t perfect. If He sees all and has the power to interject, but doesn’t, how is He possibly benevolent?

I believe that when we die, that’s the end. We don’t know we are dead, there is nothing. That’s more comforting to me than the thought of facing an angel with a book containing all of your sins.

I believe that the creator, God, is not ethereal, but physically exists. Perhaps in a state that we can’t perceive Him (an ant can’t perceive a plane flying at 30,000 feet) and we may be no more than a biproduct of an experiment in a cosmic Petri dish.

Sometimes I AM at odds with the belief that when we die, there’s nothing. I have experienced things that I cannot readily explain. But that frustration and inner-dialogue regarding theories of how those experiences happened never really lead me back to a Heaven, a Hell, or a Limbo. Mostly makes me wonder if our consciousness exists on a plane that we also can’t completely perceive until it is freed from our mortal body.

I believe that the Bible is a mixture of parables, accounts of misunderstood phenomena handed down generations, and a general basis of how one should treat others. I can no longer LITERALLY believe that Moses physically parted the Red Sea, that a woman gave birth without having sex, or that the child of that birth was crucified, Rose after three days, then ascended to Heaven  

I don’t necessarily “miss” having my faith. But it hurts me when my wife tells me I haven’t tried hard enough. I HAVE tried, and I found religion lacking in proof. Yes, I know that’s the concept of “faith”, but when she tells me that, my brain wants to hear “you haven’t blindly trusted what is told to you, and this is the one thing you need to stop waiting for proof of.” I feel like if I start accepting the faith again, I would be lying to myself, but worse, lying to her and my son.
I am happy for her to have her Christian faith, I am happy for my son to be raised as a Christian. I am happy to tell him the stories behind Christmas and Easter. It’s not my place to dictate or direct what someone wants to believe. I don’t have proof that I’m right, but I also don’t have proof that they’re wrong.

It’s important to my wife, and she is right: I do not have the same faith I did when we were married. I know that is difficult for her to accept, and to a degree unfair for her to have to. I would gladly be proven wrong, and have to put my foot in my mouth. But at this moment I can only see that any re-acceptance of faith that I proclaim in the future would only be a lie to myself and those around me.

I guess what I’m asking is for some wisdom and guidance. How can I be open to the possibility that I am dead wrong, and open to evidence that might lead me back to re-acceptance of my faith when I have changed my heart and mind to only accept ideas that are grounded in (and don’t take these terms to heart) sound logic and reason? My outlook was definitely different when I had my faith, in a positive way. I wanted to strive to do and be a better person. I wanted to focus on my future and my dreams. Now, it doesn’t seem to matter anymore. We live, we die, with no real purpose to any of it. I don’t like that outlook, but simply not liking that outlook isn’t a good enough reason to abandon what I’ve come to think without something else solid to hold on to.

A couple of points from reading your post.

You shared the same faith as your wife when you were married. You changed.

I have seen folks get married, then change. It almost always affects the relationship. It can be difficult to deal with. Whether it is a spouse gaining weight, quitting their job, or losing their faith, it can be difficult on the relationship. But it looks like you understand that.

You see the benefit to your wife and son continuing in faith. Good.

There are a couple families in my current Ward where the wife takes the kids to Church every Sunday. And the dad/husband only comes on special occasions. In one case, I really admire the guy. He does not share our faith, but you would never know it. He is a consummate gentleman, he takes care of his family, and he supports his wife and kids. He also supports the Ward when he can. He comes on camp-outs with his kids, if there is an activity that involves fathers, he is there, volunteering to help. He is just a good dad. He is a good husband. But he lacks faith. He donates as much (or more) time and effort for the Ward than many folks who would otherwise think they are active members.

Maybe he will come-around at some point. I believe he has a little faith in his heart. Perhaps you have a little bit of faith in your heart, too. "Feed your faith, your doubts will starve to death," (not my quote).

Continue to support and love your wife and son. Continue support them as they attend Church, worship, and have faith. Be a good husband and father.

As for your questions about the Bible, and doubts, there are difficult questions. There are significant questions and sometimes difficult contradictions in discussions of religious belief. I gained my belief and faith when I was a teenager, and prayed to God. My heart was filled with the spirit of God, and I knew God was real. I have had faith since then. That does not mean I have had all the answers since then. I have had faith.

Perhaps starting simple can help to sort it.

Why do you believe what you believe now?  What about it do you find compelling?

Why did you belive whatever it was that you used to believe?  What changed to make that not compelling to you anymore?

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Larger picture stuff: Do you think that truth is there, knowable, and that it exists as a reality outside of us and is not dependent on us?  ... how do you think humans can know things (by what means)?
^^^ just assessing where we both stand so there can be good discussion^^^

I too have doubts you have SweptVolume
I posted this before but my life came crashing
down when my 20 year old daughter died
from epilepsy related issues.  Also just heard
freind of my son's fiance's friend just went into hospice at 26 years old.  She has a month to live. But I was told that  this is
God's plan??  Not a good plan in my book.
It is very hard for me to make all of the Bible
work into a plan for our lives.  I have studied it for
years and went to school for it.  In my heart I want to make it work so bad but I can't.  On the other hand the Bible is a great guide for life and how we should
live for the most part.  It sounds like you are trying to do the best for your family.  Good luck working with your wife.  I am in the same type of situation
my wife is 100% Bible, me I have questions.  I used to be a Bible thumper and door pounder to tell people what I knew.  What I did 25 years ago
for evangelism would get me shot today for sure.

 

Everyone's got an opinion, but since you asked...

Short answer: Pray for humility and read St. Thomas Aquinas.  The former is a good first step in the acceptance of the grace God has for you although you may not necessarily believe in it or Him.  The latter will give you the sound logic and reason you seek if you're willing to put forth the effort.

Longer answer: Both of the previous posters make great points, and I hope I won't repeat what they already covered.  Aside from that, I commend you for having the integrity and courage to keep an open mind, to give proper importance to the subject because of the impact it will have on your family, and to ask the hard questions.  I'm so glad you sympathize with your wife.  Our purpose as fathers is to lead our wives and children to heaven; therefore, it makes sense that your wife is unhappy when she sees that you are not leading in that direction.  In addition to praying for humility, pray for the wisdom to your lead your family in accordance with the Father's will.  And then pray some more.  Pray and listen.  Then pray and listen some more.

With regard to reason, faith and reason are not at odds with each other.  One of the reason I am a Christian is because it makes sense.  I recommend St. Thomas Aquinas because he is so meticulous and precise in tying Greek philosophy with Judeo-Christian Scripture and theology.  It all just makes sense.  For example, you claim that God is a material being, Who lives where we cannot see Him.  In a way, you're not entirely wrong, since God the Son does have a material body; however, as Creator of the universe, He existed before matter and outside of creation, and created the latter out of nothing.  Your position is illogical and unreasonable because it leads to perpetual regression, which is a paradox.  Aristotle got this right centuries before Christ while being a pagan.  St. Thomas Aquinas develops this further in The Five Ways.  Here's a taste:



As mentioned above, start with where you are and build your way up, but you have to pray.

Oh, man.  Your daughter and the rest of your family will be in my prayers tonight, my Airborne brother.

@sweptvolume

"faith" just means you understand something, and you believe it.

Regarding proof - the basic playing field is that we are born - meaning we have a starting point - a first thought. Things we believe but which we cannot prove - for example, we believe we exist, but we can't even prove to ourselves that we do. "I think therefore I am" is just smuggling the conclusion desired in as proof the conclusion is true.

Our thinking is always based on these things we cannot prove. That is not license to accept everything a person believes this way (say, for example, someone believes "you shouldn't accept anything without it being proven" in this way. If  one were to accept that as true, you couldn't accept it as a belief until it was proven. and the thing that proved it was proven. Right straight out to infinity. Or other such things - It's irrational to believe self refuting things in this way.  There are some tests that basic beliefs like this have to pass, or you are on pains of being irrational if you believe them.

----

If what you had before was something other than an understanding and acceptance that you were wrong before God  (and that you couldn't make yourself right before God) and that Jesus died for your sins, in your place, making you right with God (and that in the context of believing that on the basis of the bible) ... what you had wasn't christianity.  It was something else.

There’s a lot of responses to read here, which I appreciate immensely. I will go through them this evening and respond to all of them. But I wanted to touch on this one most of all at this time.

I find the enormousness and perfection of our universe as a compelling argument in favor of a single, all encompassing creator. I believe that the truth is out there, but we are incapable of seeing it even if it was before us, which makes this hard for me because it forces me to imagine less rationally.

My belief is... if God used to talk to us, he doesn’t any more. And he stopped long before Jesus walked the Earth. I’m doubtful He ever will again.

You should  read about Fatima

This is also a good listen. https://www.catholicity.com/cds/schoeman.html

Please consider reading The Nag Hammadi Library.
If you read it with an open mind and you will probably have to read some books several times, you will in my opinion get a new perspective on Religion and see The CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE in a new way. I’m thinking this will really solve all of the Religious issues for you and everyone

My wife doesn’t want to go without me. I am willing to go with her, but she is concerned that I will refuse to get anything out of it. Maybe she’s right, but I would still go.

And of course, therein lies my dilemma. God is either benevolent but has left us, or God is a malevolent SOB. Neither one of those options makes me excited to praise Him.

But matter can not be pulled forth from “nothing”. It CAN be moved from one place to another, though.

My wife’s dad’s wife (lol) is a phenomenally faithful Catholic woman. The one question she ponders is: Who created God? The question doesn’t shake her faith, because she looks at it a different way than I do, I think.

As an aside, I find Catholicism to be the Christian faith that is the most at odds with what I was taught (SBC), but also the most enjoyable services to attend. I don’t leave Catholic services feeling like a worthless POS. I doubt I’ll ever find confession to be logical, and I don’t take communion for the obvious reason.

I'll second this ^^.

Sometimes God speaks to us, sometimes God doesn't. I have heard of people going many years without feeling the sunlight of the spirit. Maybe this situation applies to you?

I, personally, have found that when I need spiritual connection I read and podcast. There's no shortage of philosophy and religion online or in books, and it often invites other questions and knowledge I have about history and theology. Learning more about Thomas Aquinas, for example, has been part of that.

I also listen (usually while working, or exercising, or surfing ARFcom...) to faith podcasts outside my (current) personal faith - Buddism, Spiritualism, and the branches of Christendom (Lutheranism, LDS, Pentecostals, etc)

I don’t necessarily have to have proof in front of me that I can see, hear, taste, or touch in order to believe something to be true. But it has to make sense from an Occam’s Razor standpoint.

And whether we truly exist or not is a philosophical question. Not a religious one.
I can see myself in the mirror. I can look at my body and arms and hands. I feel things with my skin, and I am capable of conscious thought. I can see other people with my eyes and hear them talk to me. This does not necessarily mean that we don’t all live in a cyber universe, or that you’re not all constructs or NPC’s that we’re uploaded to my system to keep me engaged.
Now, I don’t believe any of that, so for me there is enough hard evidence that we are real, physical, independent beings that I am more than happy to accept that as fact.

Here is where I rely on, to use a phrase, testimony of others, and why I sometimes really enjoy church and fellowship.
I like to think I have a conscious contact with god, and I may pray or not, in different ways. Sometimes I feel like I get a response, sometimes I feel like i'm left wanting/needing more. When I don't, or when I feel like I am in that position of defending god against the world's atrocities and cruelty, I try and remember god working in other folk's lives. Miracles, moments of reflection, character transformations, or seemingly any other 'evidence' that something I don't understand has helped someone along the way (we're not talking about 'god' helping people find the keys under their couch...).

Maybe the circumstances I recall can be dismissed as coincidence, or fate, or random probability, who knows? I don't, but no one else does, either. Depending on the circumstance, however, most mortal men couldn't accomplish those things in and of themselves.

Again, these are just my words on a computer screen.

I'm not challenging you to 'find god' working in your life; shortening your commute, helping you find a $1 while walking the dog, or some of that BS jazz. I am saying, however, that perhaps a shift in focus might benefit you?

It sounds like you're proposing that matter has always existed without a beginning.  This would lead to either (a) matter propelled itself into something (eventually, into something intelligent and intelligible) or (b) God came along, saw matter, and said, "Hey, I could build something with this."  Both of these sound unreasonable to me because they do not answer where matter came from or what was before it.  Now with regard to matter not being able to be pulled from nothing, I could see why you may have trouble with that.  It may make sense if you think of matter coming from God, Who is substance itself.  So in that view, taking a very literalist stance, one could argue that God did not create matter out of nothing, but out of Himself since he is the source of all creation, the first cause, the unmoved mover.  Obviously, we want to avoid the error that matter is God.  God is spirit, Who transcends creation, whereas matter is just one of the realities of creation.  He did not transform one type of matter into another.  He brought matter into existence when no matter previously existed.

It is a tough situation and one I have gone through.  

Told my wife if she wanted to raise the kids in Church, go right ahead, I'll go every so often.  Which is exactly how it played out.  When I did go I didn't want to be there, I kept my mouth shut and if I did have to talk to anyone I made it as brief as possible.  I was always making the joke to my wife, "You know what the best time of the week is?  The time you walk out the Church doors because it is the longest you will be from going to Church again."

Plus, I never really believed her motivation was her faith for several reasons.  First, how could her faith in God be stronger than mine?  And secondly, it appeared to me she wanted what was best for the kids.

I couldn't really object to the second one, because it made sense.  Good wholesome environment, good friends, social connections, etc. and this was really one of the things holding me back.  The influence of a broken World.

We are taught early on to be pragmatic.  Go to school and study hard and you will get good grades.  Get good grades and you will get into a good college.  Go to a good college and get a good job.  Work hard and get promoted. etc.

My pragmatism eventually hit a hard wall in my faith...because pragmatism doesn't work in faith.  At least not forever.  You eventually either get crushed by constant falling into sin or you put yourself above others because you are doing pretty good at it.  This is where I was at.  I considered myself to be doing pretty good.  I treated people fairly well, no enemies, I did everything society expected of me.  I was definitely doing better than that guy...

This led me to questioning everything about my faith, I had developed similar beliefs to yours.  Is it true though?

Nobody was going to convince me otherwise and the same is probably true for you.  You are searching though and that is encouraging.

I wish there was an easy formula.  I got a cold, found a book on 1st Corinthians, started reading, and the drape was torn open.  It was fast and it was intense.  I was someone that never shared the Gospel and never told my testimony and the Spirit took me to places I did openly and with joy.

lol, this actually caused a bit of friction with my wife.  She was the spiritual one and it took her time to adjust to all of this.  God bless her though, I know she was praying for me all the time and she was going to Church by herself for years.  It couldn't have been easy on her, it wasn't easy on her.  Watching couples go to Church together while she was alone in it.  

I feel like I have rambled on, sorry dude for the long post, just reflecting.  I really do hope you find your way though!

Nice post, sir.  Thank you for sharing.

That's quite a small box you have built. Religious philosophies that hinge on either/or contingencies can easily lead to the pit you are now living in.

That is a false choice.  This world hasn't been a paradise since man first sinned. God has not left us, but neither is He malevolent because we suffer.  Suffering is part of life.  That suffering can be purposeful and redeeming or it can be destructive.  I have experience with both.




I doubt most who have not experienced the sacrament of Reconciliation will believe me, but while it can be very difficult, it is also an incredible blessin.  The hardest confessions that I have ever had to make are the same confessions that moved me to tears when I was finished. It is an incredibly liberating and joyful experience...when you're done

I believe. I simply believe. I've been a Christian since my twenties and married a woman who drifted away from the faith not too long after we married.  We have children who are adults now. I have come to believe that if a marriage is to be successful there are three things the couple needs to be on the same page about; Faith, Finances and Parenting. We were off on all three but 20 years of marriage finally ended badly. She didn't support my faith and I would say dead set against it with an example of me wanting to fast for the first time so I share this with her and start and they she prepares my favorite meal, roast beef, mashed potatoes and gravy.  So ended my fast. I wasn't strong spiritually.

God showed up big in my early life before I got married and I was shown signs and wonders. They were miracles and it solidified my belief that God is real, He listens, He acts but on His time and in His wisdom. There are many things that I don't understand especially the suffering and loss. I have seen my share and still do but I have also seen miracles that no one can explain away. Being diagnosed with cancer at a time after my divorce when I was getting real with my faith and learning to be more obedient and serious about my bible study. Wham. Cancer.  But I made a choice that I was going to stand on His Word and not do chemo or radiation. The specialist gave me a year. It took two to finally rid my body of that cancer but during those two years I suffered greatly physically, emotionally but spiritually I kept the faith and was strong. This year will be four years cancer free. My family didn't understand why I wanted to die but I always tell them that we all have our time. I was ready for mine but until then I was going to believe.

I have many more stories of when God showed up when I needed Him either for myself or a loved one. I believe He still talks to us either through the Bible or sometimes through that still small voice. When I feel led I speak in tongues and there have been times I have gotten a clear interpretation.  I believe in the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit and that when the time is right they are displayed at the Holy Spirit's discretion. Simply put, I believe in the Bible and try to live my life according to it's teaching. So thankful for Grace.

I still have many questions but every morning I get up way before the sun comes up and pray and read my Bible. I have read it through many times but don't even begin to consider myself an expert. Not all my questions are answered but I know in time they will be in this life or the next. I was raised Episcopal and confirmed into the church but in my 20's was born again in a Charismatic church in Albuquerque and I really miss that church because there is nothing like it where I live. I think God allowed me to see such powerful signs early on in my life because He knew I would drift away and be tempted in so many different ways but I never quit believing in Him. I just wasn't always obedient. My spiritual life really took off when I got serious about reading the Bible, KJV, repented wholeheartedly and changed my lifestyle which takes time. Holy Roller, Bible Thumper, etc. I've been called them all and have been treated differently too in some circles but it's okay. I understand why and am thankful for where I am at. Alive.

I'll say a prayer for you and your family. My children were confused on spiritual matters and still are because they have both their mother and father.'s influence and she hasn't changed. I think that is the part that saddens me the most because I have watched them pay the consequence for bad decisions.

Eh, I wasn't presuming you're a naturalist/only believe in the physical.

"a philosophical question ..." I don't think that distinction is really useful here. Not in that way - simply because something is called philosophical doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile thing for these discussions.

I was simply using that example to illustrate the point that we all have (and must, unavoidably) have basic/axiomatic beliefs, things we cannot prove ... and I than talked about how that doesn't mean we get to be irrational knotheads in what we believe that way.

This is the important bit: "If what you had before was something other than an understanding and acceptance that you were wrong before God  (and that you couldn't make yourself right before God) and that Jesus died for your sins, in your place, making you right with God (and that in the context of believing that on the basis of the bible) ... what you had wasn't christianity.  It was something else."

God is benevolent, but I assure you He has not left us.

I know how you feel. After years of dealing with people, I almost gave up. God came into my life again, I let him back in.  I have more joy by sharing and providing for neighbors and others.  I always thought that people that said God talked to them were crazy.  Several months ago God talked to me and told me what I should do. I dismissed it as a dream, it happened a second time and I refused.  After the third time, I knew what I had to do and will continue to spread the word.

I know it sounds crazy.  But I know what I must do

@SpentBrass  Amen brother. Sometimes when I feel the Lord is speaking to me I ask for a confirmation so I know it is not just myself. He provides what I need to get His message across.

I am currently reading in Ezekiel and found some scriptures that may have meaning because after all it is a choice. God gives us free will to choose. It is a tough choice to choose a way of life that goes against the grain of this world. Once you start looking at life through your Bible glasses, your whole perspective changes. But the biggest plus for me is my relationship with the Lord. Going through all the trials and tribulations that I have basically alone because I have remained single since my divorce but yet not alone because I pray and know that I am heard and loved. I help my family because they have many struggles and help those whom God puts in my path. I spread the Word when I can and look at it as planting seeds because not everyone is ready to accept what I have to share. I wasn't when the gospel was first shared with me as a teenager but the seed sprouted. That person wasn't around to see it happen but I am thankful he was obedient because I wondered why me after he shared. Look at Jesus's teaching on the Sower and the 4 soils in Matthew 13:1-23 kjv because I view that as stages of the heart as it has been that way with mine.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 King James Version (KJV)

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I truly feel that God is very much at work in today's world and just as God has His people so does the devil that has his and there are different levels of emnity. I view this world as a testing grounds for what comes next. When I get discouraged because of all the trials I go through and I see others seemingly getting a free ride I remember this scripture and how temporary this world is.

1 Peter 4:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Right now all those that are uncommitted or undecided are in the Valley of Decision as the prophet Joel spoke of:

Joel 3:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

Thank you

Fantastic testimony. Thanks for sharing! I could see how something on 1 Corinthians could do it.

On Nov. 21st, 2017... one of my best friends reached out to me with similar messaging to yours in the OP. He is a lawyer, and always logical and deeply pragmatic. Not only was he questioning God, he was also questioning life in general.

My recommendation to him at the time, was to read this book: Mere Christianity by CS Lewis

Flash forward 2.5 years and my friend is now in a much better place in his life, with a very strong (renewed) faith, and a good sense of peace. He has even been doing quality some writing on the subject. Try out the book, gain some humility, lose some ego, but most importantly, read the Bible and pray if you are truly interested.