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Link Posted: 2/25/2021 2:09:57 PM EDT
[#1]
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It helps and it doesn’t. I would say the biggest sticking point is Matthew 1:25 where it is implied that Joseph knew Mary after Jesus was born. And the sinlessness of Mary. If she was born of man’s seed. How can she be sinless?
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Well, cavsct has addressed Matthew 1:25 and "until" pretty well.

"If she was born of man’s seed. How can she be sinless?" Good question. Hence the Catholic doctrine on the Immaculate Conception. Now, this doctrine is born out of logic, reason, and faith. I would argue while there is good reasoning behind it, faith is indeed most important.
Link Posted: 2/25/2021 2:35:12 PM EDT
[#2]
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Well, cavsct has addressed Matthew 1:25 and "until" pretty well.

"If she was born of man’s seed. How can she be sinless?" Good question. Hence the Catholic doctrine on the Immaculate Conception. Now, this doctrine is born out of logic, reason, and faith. I would argue while there is good reasoning behind it, faith is indeed most important.
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I would take this one step further, in total agreeance with you.

There are fantastic logical and reason-based arguments in favor of every doctrine and matter in Catholic theology.  If you keep asking questions ad nauseum, eventually you come to the bedrock of faith, where some cornerstone of that argument must be accepted by faith.  There is always faith at the center!  I don't believe there is any argument that can be solved by intellect and reason alone.

Link Posted: 2/25/2021 3:02:35 PM EDT
[#3]
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I would take this one step further, in total agreeance with you.

There are fantastic logical and reason-based arguments in favor of every doctrine and matter in Catholic theology.  If you keep asking questions ad nauseum, eventually you come to the bedrock of faith, where some cornerstone of that argument must be accepted by faith.  There is always faith at the center!  I don't believe there is any argument that can be solved by intellect and reason alone.

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Certain things can be known by reason alone, which is the field of natural theology and the bedrock of of Natural Law (cf. Romans 2).

The Council Vatican I addressed this:
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum20.htm (just ctrl+f "reason")

Much like Philosophy can lead to an understanding of certain truths, which then serve theology as its (theology's) handmaid, so too does reason, though not rationalism, lead to certain truths of the Faith which are served by and are not opposed to reasonability, though not arrived at by reason alone.

To reject this is to force oneself into presuppositional apologetics only, which can lead to a lot of logical fallacies.

Trent Horn talks about this at 18:08 in this podcast:
https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/answering-atheism-2
Link Posted: 2/25/2021 3:39:54 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:


Well, cavsct has addressed Matthew 1:25 and "until" pretty well.

"If she was born of man’s seed. How can she be sinless?" Good question. Hence the Catholic doctrine on the Immaculate Conception. Now, this doctrine is born out of logic, reason, and faith. I would argue while there is good reasoning behind it, faith is indeed most important.
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It helps and it doesn’t. I would say the biggest sticking point is Matthew 1:25 where it is implied that Joseph knew Mary after Jesus was born. And the sinlessness of Mary. If she was born of man’s seed. How can she be sinless?


Well, cavsct has addressed Matthew 1:25 and "until" pretty well.

"If she was born of man’s seed. How can she be sinless?" Good question. Hence the Catholic doctrine on the Immaculate Conception. Now, this doctrine is born out of logic, reason, and faith. I would argue while there is good reasoning behind it, faith is indeed most important.

@cavsct1983 Ah I see where you guys are coming from now. Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/25/2021 3:50:02 PM EDT
[#5]
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@cavsct1983 Ah I see where you guys are coming from now. Thanks.
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No problem. My pleasure.

Link Posted: 2/25/2021 5:56:18 PM EDT
[#6]
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This is one of the sticky points for many non-Catholics, and you bring up a very good question. The RCC, and some Protestants, hold that Mary was a Perpetual virgin and did not have sex with anyone or other children.

Not my work:
The perpetual virginity of Mary has always been reconciled with the biblical references to Christ’s brethren through a proper understanding of the meaning of the term “brethren.” The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus’ step-brothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century). It was Jerome who introduced the possibility that Christ’s brethren were actually his cousins, since in Jewish idiom cousins were also referred to as “brethren.” The Catholic Church allows the faithful to hold either view, since both are compatible with the reality of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Today most Protestants are unaware of these early beliefs regarding Mary’s virginity and the proper interpretation of “the brethren of the Lord.” And yet, the Protestant Reformers themselves—Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli—honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible, as have other, more modern Protestants.

“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first fruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

*Note- this is but one of MANY early Church sources that addresses the case.
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Also how can Mary be a perpetual virgin when she (Knew) Joseph and had kids with him?


This is one of the sticky points for many non-Catholics, and you bring up a very good question. The RCC, and some Protestants, hold that Mary was a Perpetual virgin and did not have sex with anyone or other children.

Not my work:
The perpetual virginity of Mary has always been reconciled with the biblical references to Christ’s brethren through a proper understanding of the meaning of the term “brethren.” The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus’ step-brothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century). It was Jerome who introduced the possibility that Christ’s brethren were actually his cousins, since in Jewish idiom cousins were also referred to as “brethren.” The Catholic Church allows the faithful to hold either view, since both are compatible with the reality of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Today most Protestants are unaware of these early beliefs regarding Mary’s virginity and the proper interpretation of “the brethren of the Lord.” And yet, the Protestant Reformers themselves—Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli—honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible, as have other, more modern Protestants.

“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first fruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

*Note- this is but one of MANY early Church sources that addresses the case.


It's hard to cite the reference to Christ's "brothers" as not being people more known that Him, and this likely older.

From there, it gets really strained to argue these were Mary's kids.

Joseph was a much older man who completely disappears from Scriptures when Jesus Christ is barely getting started. For an established Jewish man to not get married until what was quite possible his late 50s or more was just about unheard of. Nothing in the Scriptures suggests he was a virgin, or suggests he hadn't been previously married with children. To argue that Mary could not have remained virgin is to argue that Joseph must have, and for a looong time.
Link Posted: 2/25/2021 6:10:27 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


I would take this one step further, in total agreeance with you.

There are fantastic logical and reason-based arguments in favor of every doctrine and matter in Catholic theology.  If you keep asking questions ad nauseum, eventually you come to the bedrock of faith, where some cornerstone of that argument must be accepted by faith.  There is always faith at the center!  I don't believe there is any argument that can be solved by intellect and reason alone.

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Well said. As cavsct has alluded, many can be brought about to almost near completion via reason, I too believe that ultimately faith is at the center. Heck, even if it's something as basic as faith that Thomas Aquinas got it correct.
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 4:25:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 4:35:17 PM EDT
[#9]
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Been a while since I read up on it but I thought Mary did have other sons with Joseph, which would have been Jesus' half brothers?
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This has been addressed in earlier posts in this thread. Short answer; not likely.
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 4:36:50 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 4:42:17 PM EDT
[#11]
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I'll back up and review the references.
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Sure, and if I can help clarify anything, I can give it my best shot.
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 4:42:23 PM EDT
[#12]
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This has been addressed in earlier posts in this thread. Short answer; not likely.
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The short answer, very likely.
And the Book of James is more then likely James in verse 55

Matt 13: 54-58
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 4:43:44 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:


The short answer, very likely.
And the Book of James is more then likely James in verse 55

Matt 13: 54-58
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief
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Yes, this has been addressed and refuted over the last 2000 years of Christianity, as well as in this thread. I hope this helps.
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 5:57:43 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:


The short answer, very likely.
And the Book of James is more then likely James in verse 55

Matt 13: 54-58
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief
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You might wish to review the sources in this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Marian-Dogmas-Question-for-Catholics/135-2428494/?page=1#i91331876

Specifically, the video by Dr. Pitre where he shows that the brethren are not blood brothers, but cousins or some sort of kinsman relation and it is demonstrable through connecting the dots in Scripture that this is the case.

Additionally, if Martin Luther, Zwingli, Calvin (he didn't preach it, but neither did he deny it; he was neutral on the issue but did not support the arguments people make regarding, "until", "brothers", etc.), the Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox all agree on something, one might be advised to not so casually dismiss it with boring tropes and lazy replies, for which you are known in this sub-forum.
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 6:02:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 6:14:49 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
Please be nice.
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I agree that civility is vital in this forum, but in my opinion cavsct raises a valid point. The poster in question repeatedly posts no real arguments short of "Catholics and their Church are liars, and You don't believe in the Word of God."

Moreover, words like "lazy, stupid, and evil" are not uncommon in said poster's posts.

In other words, civility all around is the most desirable outcome here.
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 6:22:30 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:


I agree that civility is vital in this forum, but in my opinion cavsct raises a valid point. The poster in question repeatedly posts no real arguments short of "Catholics and their Church are liars, and You don't believe in the Word of God."

Moreover, words like "lazy, stupid, and evil" are not uncommon in said poster's posts.

In other words, civility all around is the most desirable outcome here.
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You are talking about me?
Where did I say the word's lazy, stupid and evil?
If posting a Scripture from God's Word offends you, better look at yourself.
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 7:01:37 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 3/1/2021 11:06:13 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:


Could you please explain how this is? I have heard of this with others.

Qui docet, discit!
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Mariology, especially Fatima, has played a huge role in bringing me back to the faith.


Could you please explain how this is? I have heard of this with others.

Qui docet, discit!


Sure.  After some rough times in my personal life several years ago, I reprioritized the practice of my Catholic faith, putting it back at the top of the list, where it should have always been.  Part of that included being on the startup team for a That Man is You (TMIY) group at my former parish.  One of the topics that group covered was a multi-week discussion of Marian apparitions, especially Fatima.

I have vaguely heard of Fatima, but wasn't really something I remember from 12 years of 70s/80s Catholic school, so I looked into it more on my own.

The messages of Fatima really struck me:  fasting, repentance, and prayer - especially the Rosary.  Also, the issue of the consecration of Russia.  In 1917, Russia was a backwater European power and I don't think anyone believed that the country was going to play a major role on the world stage soon, especially not 3 peasant kids from Portugal who probably didn't even know what Russia was.  That the Fatima apparitions ended with the most publicly observed miracle since the parting of the Red Sea was also noteworthy.

So, I started praying the Rosary daily and performed the five First Saturdays devotion in accordance with Mary's request.

I don't know what it is about the Rosary, but when I pray it daily, it pulls me into other prayer.  Without the Rosary, I am less inclined to pray at all.  I normally pray a scriptural Rosary that offers a Bible verse for each Hail Mary using this site.  Yeah, a couple "verses" are from Vatican II documents, but mostly Bible verses, so I get in some scripture every day in addition to the daily Mass readings I try to do.

A few years ago, TMIY wanted us to pray the Divine Mercy chaplet daily for Lent.  Nothing wrong with DM, but I substituted it for my Daily Rosary and things just went kind of flat for me.  I should have just added it instead, but I didn't.

That's it.  Nothing crazy, but when I pray the Rosary every day, I pray more.  Tough to argue with that.

Pax Vobiscum
Link Posted: 4/4/2021 11:48:33 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
I'm an evangelical honestly evaluating the truth claims of the Roman Catholic Church. I have come to terms with much of the theology of the church but there are a few outstanding issues I have. One of the areas I am not convinced on is the Marian dogmas and devotions.  To put a finer point on the particulars of my issues with these, I have no issue with asking for Mary's intercession, with her veneration (in the sense that it means to show particular honor to), or with her title as Theotokos 'Mother of God.'

...
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Christ is risen!  Alleluia!

With those three points covered, it doesn't sound like you should have objections to praying the Rosary.  It sounds like you've done quite a bit of research, and I apologize if I'm pointing out abecedarian information, but the point is that you meditate on one of the mysteries (e.g.: the Resurrection) as you pray one Our Father and ten Hail Marys.  You can start this any day really, but with May around the corner, May being the month of Mary, that would be the perfect time to give it a try for a month.  You would end on May 31, which is the Queenship of Mary.  If you pray at least five mysteries (five decades) every day for the entire month, you'll see that your prayer life and your proximity to Christ will improve significantly by day 31.  If you pray all 15 every day, by day 31 you'll be seeking the Sacrament of Confirmation with St. John the Beloved as your confirmation saint, whom our Lord explicitly commanded to behold his mother.  

For an actual rosary, you can pick one up at your nearest Catholic church, get a free one online, or I can put one in the mail for you.
Link Posted: 4/5/2021 10:12:59 AM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 4/5/2021 10:21:30 AM EDT
[#22]
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Why would you be surprised people are confused about the IC being about Jesus' conception (rather than Mary's)? A shocking percentage of Catholics don't even believe about the REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist. I'll also second Marie's statement about crappy education - *I* was confused about the IC for a long time because not much time was spent on it. Our (RCC) spiritual formation/education is pretty bad in some key areas depending on where and when you grew up.
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No, confused about what their own church teaches. They think the Immaculate Conception is about Jesus, not Mary, aka what is commemorated.  When I pointed out the Annunciation is about Jesus, they were utterly baffled.

People were posting on FB about the IC feast day commemorating Jesus' conception.

It was a hot mess.
Sheesh... that's a pretty common misunderstanding in secular pop culture, but really hugh level derp for anyone onto the faith enough to even know when the IC feast day is. Problem is, "Catholic" is often as much a cultural label as it is a religious one.

Why would you be surprised people are confused about the IC being about Jesus' conception (rather than Mary's)? A shocking percentage of Catholics don't even believe about the REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist. I'll also second Marie's statement about crappy education - *I* was confused about the IC for a long time because not much time was spent on it. Our (RCC) spiritual formation/education is pretty bad in some key areas depending on where and when you grew up.


Oh, no doubt. I was personally a product of the hippy nonsense that took over things in the late 1970s through much of the '80s. My confirmation prep was 100% moral teaching, zero percent theology.
Link Posted: 4/5/2021 4:38:09 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:


Christ is risen!  Alleluia!

With those three points covered, it doesn't sound like you should have objections to praying the Rosary.  It sounds like you've done quite a bit of research, and I apologize if I'm pointing out abecedarian information, but the point is that you meditate on one of the mysteries (e.g.: the Resurrection) as you pray one Our Father and ten Hail Marys.  You can start this any day really, but with May around the corner, May being the month of Mary, that would be the perfect time to give it a try for a month.  You would end on May 31, which is the Queenship of Mary.  If you pray at least five mysteries (five decades) every day for the entire month, you'll see that your prayer life and your proximity to Christ will improve significantly by day 31.  If you pray all 15 every day, by day 31 you'll be seeking the Sacrament of Confirmation with St. John the Beloved as your confirmation saint, whom our Lord explicitly commanded to behold his mother.  

For an actual rosary, you can pick one up at your nearest Catholic church, get a free one online, or I can put one in the mail for you.
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Christ is risen indeed!

You're correct I don't necessarily have any theological issue praying the rosary, and have dabbled with praying an individual Hail Mary here or there, and actually saw a nice answer to prayer in it, though I can't say for sure it was directly due to the Blessed Virgin's intercession, because what I was praying for had a greater than 50/50 shot anyway.  It was nice identifying with the Mother of Christ and thinking of her praying for me in the very throne room of heaven, and as the request involved my wife and child I felt she especially understood my situation with compassion.  I have also prayed the Eastern Jesus prayer repetitively but not really more than a decade at a time. Routine prayers repeated almost as a mantra, like the rosary, are so foreign to a protestant concept of prayer, that I'm not sure how I feel about it. While I like and appreciate Bishop Barron's definition of prayer, raising the mind and the heart to God, traditionally protestant prayer is only takes the form of talking to God.  I like the idea of contemplating the various mysteries which mostly have to do with Jesus, but can't help but worry at some point the repetitiveness of the rosary might make it more raising the mind and the heart to Mary rather than raising the mind to God, in which case it could cross the line into idolatry.  I will have to contemplate praying the rosary some more.
Link Posted: 4/5/2021 11:32:57 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:

Christ is risen indeed!

You're correct I don't necessarily have any theological issue praying the rosary, and have dabbled with praying an individual Hail Mary here or there, and actually saw a nice answer to prayer in it, though I can't say for sure it was directly due to the Blessed Virgin's intercession, because what I was praying for had a greater than 50/50 shot anyway.  It was nice identifying with the Mother of Christ and thinking of her praying for me in the very throne room of heaven, and as the request involved my wife and child I felt she especially understood my situation with compassion.  I have also prayed the Eastern Jesus prayer repetitively but not really more than a decade at a time. Routine prayers repeated almost as a mantra, like the rosary, are so foreign to a protestant concept of prayer, that I'm not sure how I feel about it. While I like and appreciate Bishop Barron's definition of prayer, raising the mind and the heart to God, traditionally protestant prayer is only takes the form of talking to God.  I like the idea of contemplating the various mysteries which mostly have to do with Jesus, but can't help but worry at some point the repetitiveness of the rosary might make it more raising the mind and the heart to Mary rather than raising the mind to God, in which case it could cross the line into idolatry.  I will have to contemplate praying the rosary some more.
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If you think of it as seeing these events in Christ's life through Mary's eyes, and keep in mind that the first part of the Hail Mary is literally Scripture (Luke 1:28, 42), and the second part is simply a plea that she will pray for you now and at the hour of your death, which should focus you on to Whom she would be praying (now and at the hour of your death), and before Whom you shall stand during your particular judgement, it will be less foreign. The Our Father's, of course, are given by Christ Himself. And the Glory Be is simply an affirmation of worship of God. If one thinks about it, it's a beautiful "sandwich" in that the Mysteries start with a prayer given by Christ (I'm thinking here of the parable of the sower; the Our Father is a simplistic start to higher focus), which is then tended/watered by repeating the words of an Angel in relation to Christ via Mary, and bring to fruit the contemplation of God in all His revealed glory: which... is the entire point of heaven, is it not? But, it doesn't overwhelm us with that, but reverberates in a cycle of doing this in a way which focuses us on Christ's life, passion, and resurrection, along with the overarching reality of His Kingdom, ultimately. So: Our Father, Hail Mary (which gives us Christ and leads one back to Christ), and then Christ leads to the reality of contemplating God in the Glory Be.

Keep in mind also that the 150 Hail Mary's over the course of the full 15 decades (typically we only do 5 per day, known less commonly as the Chaplet of the Rosary) subtends to the Psalms, and the Rosary was seen as a lay participation in the spirit of the work of the clergy who pray the entire Psalms in a week. As for repetition, think of Psalm 135 (or 136, depending on numbering): it repeats "for his mercy endureth for ever." over and over. Or Revelation 4:8, " And the four living creatures had each of them six wings; and round about and within they are full of eyes. And they rested not  day and night, saying:Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come."

Also keep in mind that one certainly can meditate on anything during the Rosary, and still achieve the result. Distracted? Fine, use those distractions to think about in relation to the Incarnation, or the fact that Jesus saw YOUR sins during His agony in the garden, or the Resurrection, etc. Say you want to meditate on ONLY the Resurrection for an entire 5 decades, or maybe you intend to do the normal 5 for the day but then get some really good insight on one particular mystery and decide to stay on that: totally OK. The Mysteries in order and on each traditional day are good to meditate on, but one is not bound to them. They provide a nice boundary and framework, but they are not required.

You also might be interested in the Divine Mercy chaplet, which uses the rosary beads.

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