User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:10:19 AM EDT
[#1]
Tommy gun, with my luck every german on the line would find a way to be in my face, up close and personal.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:12:34 AM EDT
[#2]
No, I'd take the 30 carbine. No way in hell I want to be loading a tube feed mag under fire in ww2.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:12:34 AM EDT
[#3]
No. Too fragile and over complicated cartridge loading system to be reliable enough for full time battle conditions.
Hunting with pappy at deer camp is a lot different than WWII conditions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:12:57 AM EDT
[#4]
Garand.
End of thread. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:13:14 AM EDT
[#5]
M1 is the correct answer.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:14:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Interesting, I didn’t know that. Thanks for the knowledge.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:15:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, I'd take the 30 carbine. No way in hell I want to be loading a tube feed mag under fire in ww2. Low capacity, slow to load, slow follow up shots. M1 carbine would be a much better weapon if you don't want the garand. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:15:32 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. Too fragile and over complicated cartridge loading system to be reliable enough for full time battle conditions. Hunting with pappy at deer camp is a lot different than WWII conditions. That too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:16:14 AM EDT
[#9]
I wanted to be a fan of lever guns. But it was obvious they aren’t combat worthy arms as a main fighting weapon upon owning one.
Too slow, too weak, too limited. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:16:30 AM EDT
[#10]
An M1 Garand has stout recoil? Mine must be defective.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:17:03 AM EDT
[#11]
I doubt they would hold up as well.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:21:13 AM EDT
[#12]
Russia was still fielding the Winchester M95 in 7.62x54R in rear echelon units. They gave many of them to Spain as aid during the Spanish civil war.
Lever gun would be my last choice if Garands or Tommy guns were to be had instead. ETA, Finland probably had some 95's in action as well, captured from the Soviets. Winter/Continuation war era. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:21:38 AM EDT
[#13]
IIRC there was a SEAL in Vietnam that carried a lever action for penetrating log bunkers.
SOG not SEAL. Mad Dog Shriver |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:26:01 AM EDT
[#14]
In High-Power Silhouette, we shoot out to 500m. This particular range sweeps uphill.
One day, the match director brought out his .30-30 and match loads (which, for Lever Silhouette, are loaded heavy to take rams at 200m). He could barely get them over the 400m turkey bank with considerable hold over. While I realize typical engagements are probably 100m +/-, standing in that open range - I'd have no desire to wait until 100m to engage one's foe - and not being able to engage them until 400m would leave me feeling a touch exposed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:39:53 AM EDT
[#15]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:41:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Winchester 94s were used by the Pacific Coast Militia Rangers, in British Columbia, during WWII.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:50:32 AM EDT
[#17]
M1 carbine or garand. Grease gun if I can’t get either. Thompson’s too heavy for what it is.
Nope on a 1894 or other levergun. Fuck trying to field strip and clean that thing regularly. All the crap that opens up on it when cycling wouldn’t like muck being added. Plus slow loading and a thin mag tube that will lock up if it’s dented. Solid nope for me. Civil war - WWI there are certain leverguns that would be preferable to what was issued or viable but never an 1894 for me and by WWII much better equipment was available. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 1:56:29 AM EDT
[#18]
I am one of the weirdos that chose the Grease Gun, mostly because it is light and controllable. If I didn't have to carry all that F'n gear and walk everywhere, I would have picked the Garand, but carrying that thing and all the gear everywhere I go.. yea not cool. Shot a Thompson once, was not particularly impressed. Shot the MP40 and loved it, figured the Grease Gun would be more MP40-ish. Love the M1 Carbine... in theory, but never found one that worked well.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 2:05:51 AM EDT
[#19]
I would be good with either the Garand or carbine, your fighting a modern army not playing wild west
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 2:11:41 AM EDT
[#20]
I would take every other weapon in the poll over an 1894 or any other lever action rifle.
Lever actions are fun and I like them a lot, but they simply aren’t durable/reliable relative to other action types. Reloading is also a massive problem. There are reasons why bolt actions ruled the battlefield from the 1890s to the 1940s and lever actions have very little military presence in that era. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 2:33:13 AM EDT
[#21]
My dad carried a Thompson M1 in the pacific, he spoke highly of it doing tunnel clearing on Japanese held islands.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 2:41:58 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Apparently the lever action rifle was used by some military units in history including WWII. There is little doubt of it’s popularity in America from it’s first inception to today’s current iterations. Winchester Lever-Actions Go To War Considering what weapons that were available to U.S. troops during WWII, if a Winchester 1894 in .30-30 was offered for issue would you choose it? Winchester 1894 .30-30 slightly under 7 lbs, just over 3’ long overall, 7 round capacity, more power than either 7.92x33 Kurtz or 7.62x39, well-known intermediate calibers with light to moderate recoil. M1 Garand 9.5 lbs, over 3.5’ long, 8 round capacity and having stout recoil. 1903 Springfield 9 lbs, over 3.5’ long, 5-round capacity having stout recoil. M1 Thompson 11 lbs, 2.7’ long, 30-round capacity, fast firing, .45 acp is heavy and short effective range. M3 submachine gun 8 lbs, 1.8’-2.4’ long, 30-round capacity, .45 acp, slower rate of fire and short effective range. M1 Carbine 5.5 lbs, 3’ long, 15-round capacity semi-auto, .30 carbine, short effective range, light recoil considered to have mediocre effectiveness by some. Personally, I’d say yes to the ‘94 in .30-30, light short compact carbine with much better stopping power than .30 carbine and longer effective range than it or .45 acp. Considering most combat takes place within 100 yards I wouldn’t see the need for the full-power .30-06 and the extra weight and recoil. As someone mentioned above, the m1 garand does not have stout recoil at all. In fact, it's the softest shooting .30-06 i've ever shot. The weight of the rifle combined with the fact that it's a semi auto makes it pretty easy to shoot. Night and day difference between firing a lightweight hunting bolt action rifle in .30-06. After about 4 rounds of one of those, my shoulder says fuck you im done shooting for the day. But with my garand, I can easily fire 100 or more rounds through it (if i could afford it), its fun and not punishing at all. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 2:52:40 AM EDT
[#23]
A Winchester 1894 is a perfect example of a gun that was not designed or built for military use. I think it made sense for a few to be purchased for rear echelon use or something like that. In actual combat, its problems would be:
1) Inadequate cartridge. It does have a strong recoil but can't really be used effectively beyond 200-300 yards. 2) Weak construction. The front sights aren't securely attached. The way they just put a tiny silver solder bead on them they'd come off when bumped and no way would a bayonet be able to be used. The magazine tube and the way it's attached is a somewhat delicate arrangement as well. 3) Slow to load. 4) Hard to field strip and clean. 5) Very poor sights. Not easy to understand the elevation settings or adjust for windage either. It would have been interesting if they had decided to make a wartime version of it, like the 1903A3 of 1894s. Maybe they would have beefed it up and made it with a peep sight, parkerized finish, and reinforced the front sight for a bayonet. Maybe given it a heatshield like a trench shotgun. That would have been cool. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 2:56:42 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would take every other weapon in the poll over an 1894 or any other lever action rifle. Lever actions are fun and I like them a lot, but they simply aren’t durable/reliable relative to other action types. Reloading is also a massive problem. There are reasons why bolt actions ruled the battlefield from the 1890s to the 1940s and lever actions have very little military presence in that era. Yeah, lever actions don't do well when they are thrown around, dropped, face the normal conditions of combat hell etc. Not only that, but the military also chose bolt over lever actions because if you are in the prone position and trying to lay flat as possible, you cannot cycle a lever action without significantly raising your arms and the rifle up in the air. A bolt action on the other hand can be cycled while staying almost completely flat on the ground. And thats how a lot of ww1 and ww2 was fought. Soldiers laying on their bellies all day long. Then quickest way to get spotted and killed is making a sudden movement. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 4:07:34 AM EDT
[#25]
I’ve had an original 1892 for years and used everything else in the poll, except the grease gun.
No way in hell I’d choose it or an 1894 over a functional alternative. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 4:07:44 AM EDT
[#26]
I will concede the '94 would probably be harder to field strip, but how necessary would it be, open the action and everything needing to be cleaned is accessible.
Unlike the Garand, it can be continually topped-off without having to dump a partial en-bloc. But I'd have to argue it having low capacity as it holds 7-rounds and the Garand 8-rounds, most bolts of the era only held 5-rounds aside from the Enfield. Follow-up shots are faster than with a bolt-action and .30-30 is way more powerful than .30 carbine let alone .45 acp. Recoil is less than in the Garand, not saying the Garand recoil was unbearable, just stout. The action is only open when cycling the lever, which happens pretty fast, faster than with a bolt action and there isn't many complaints about junk getting into a bolt-actions action causing problems. It is obvious that many haven't read on the history of military use of lever actions, it performed very well in most cases and am sure it was not treated with kid gloves. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 4:09:18 AM EDT
[#27]
I don't get the argument about not being able to cycle the action while prone, it's easy, just twist the rifle to the left and cycle it, not a big deal and it doesn't expose yourself to enemy fire anymore than cycling a bolt action does.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 4:25:37 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, lever actions don't do well when they are thrown around, dropped, face the normal conditions of combat hell etc. Not only that, but the military also chose bolt over lever actions because if you are in the prone position and trying to lay flat as possible, you cannot cycle a lever action without significantly raising your arms and the rifle up in the air. A bolt action on the other hand can be cycled while staying almost completely flat on the ground. And thats how a lot of ww1 and ww2 was fought. Soldiers laying on their bellies all day long. Then quickest way to get spotted and killed is making a sudden movement. The clearance needed to work the lever on the lever gun I have isn't any worse than an AKM with a 30 round magazine, and I imagine not too far off from an AR-15. If you want to get really low with any of those rifles, you're going to have to do off axis shooting, which is going to affect how well you can shoot. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 5:07:53 AM EDT
[#29]
I went to a WW2 museum near Nijmegen in Holland 20 years ago. They had a display with a paratrooper dummy and a Winchester 1892 Carbine hanging beside it. Someone apparantly jumped with that.
Pretty stupid if you ask me,but a few British Officers carried their Stalking Rifles into Battle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 5:15:21 AM EDT
[#30]
When we were standing in the sleeting rain, getting our chalk assignments prior to jumping into Panama, we still had heavy drop Sheridans. All of the DATs carried grease guns. I vividly recall wanting one of those so badly.
 I voted for the grease gun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 5:28:39 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tommy gun, with my luck every german on the line would find a way to be in my face, up close and personal. I have known people who carried them in combat and they all said it sucked because of the weight. They much preferred the M3. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 5:33:08 AM EDT
[#32]
I’ll take anything magazine fed over a lever action
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 6:46:48 AM EDT
[#33]
A better question might be, if you had a choice between non-scoped M1903 and a M1895, which one would you pick?
However, the M1903 remained in service as a standard issue infantry rifle during World War II, since the U.S. entered the war without sufficient M1 rifles to arm all troops.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:02:07 AM EDT
[#34]
I’d rather have an M1 carbine or a shotgun.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:03:32 AM EDT
[#35]
M2 Carbine
Poll Fail!!! |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:05:54 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: shotgun. Unless you were in the Pacific theater, that would be a poor choice. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:11:35 AM EDT
[#37]
Dad picked the Thompson for European theater.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:13:10 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless you were in the Pacific theater, that would be a poor choice. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: shotgun. Unless you were in the Pacific theater, that would be a poor choice. I would still take one over a 30-30. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:14:18 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would still take one over a 30-30. With a rifled barrel and sabot rounds, roger?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:27:31 AM EDT
[#40]
M1 carbine all day long.
Guns get carried more than they get shot and that's the best balance of weight, shootability, and effectiveness on the list. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:30:24 AM EDT
[#41]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:37:48 AM EDT
[#42]
I think the biggest issue I have here is anyone referring to Garand recoil as “stout”. ??
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:40:14 AM EDT
[#43]
.
 you guys never heard of 1895 Winchesters in carbine and musket versions in .gov calibers? . |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:46:56 AM EDT
[#44]
Being the first gun I ever shot and learned to shoot with was an M1 Carbine I would pick the Carbine.
We had four rifles to hunt with when I was 12. M1 carbine M1 garand 94 Winchester 30-30 1903-a3 We were allowed to hunt with the carbine or the 30-30 The sights are much better on the carbine and for a 12 year old the 30-30 kicks the shit out of you causing flinching problems. To day I would pick that 1903 for accuracy alone War situation I would take carbine or Garand |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:51:54 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Winchester 1894's delivered to Britain in 1941-42, Home Guard and Merchant Marine https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/172926/model-1894-94-the-british-women_s-auxili-2190093.JPG I was going to say I could certainly see them being used by state-side troops and those based in Britain well away from the front lines. It would free up newer guns for use at the front. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:54:09 AM EDT
[#46]
The linked article says nothing about WW2, and even in WW1 they were only issues to rear troops until production picked up.
British home guard were just that, home front, and even used arms donated by US civilians. OPs premise is bunk. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:57:03 AM EDT
[#47]
I think it would be very hard to top the Garand. We had the right rifle for the job.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:57:10 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IIRC there was a SEAL in Vietnam that carried a lever action for penetrating log bunkers. SOG not SEAL. Mad Dog Shriver Good grief. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 7:58:14 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While I realize typical engagements are probably 100m +/- Quite correct The ORO found that over 80% of shots in the European theater were taken at about 100 yards or less 100-200 shots accounted for most of the remaining 20%, with just a handful in the 200-300 range This was again held true in Korea, not just for US fighters but for the Chinese and N.Koreans as well They further found that in other WWII theaters the distances were even less Over the ~2 years on Bougainville almost all hits were under 75 yards Interestingly this supported the findings that lead to the US Light Rifle Program which brought us the M1 Carbine The studies done on WWI found that long distance shots were rarely needed for the typical infantryman People love to repeat the myth that the Carbine was made for cooks and clerks, but the LRP shows otherwise It was designed as a front line weapon to fill the role most found in combat with features most requested by our men That is the reason the cartridge was optimized for 0-100y shots, but with sights marked to 200 & 300 for rare occasions |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2021 8:01:46 AM EDT
[#50]
Thanks OP, thanks a lot.
Now I have another unobtainable grail gun to lust over... An 1895 Winchester in 7.62 R. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
Attached File