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Posted: 3/4/2021 11:49:33 AM EDT
[#1]
That’s correct afaik
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Posted: 3/4/2021 12:04:10 PM EDT
[#2]
You can only plead the 5th to avoid self incrimination, but pleading the 5th cannot be used to construe guilt by the judge or jury. If they do it is grounds for reversal.
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Posted: 3/4/2021 1:20:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can only plead the 5th to avoid self incrimination, but pleading the 5th cannot be used to construe guilt by the judge or jury. If they do it is grounds for reversal. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 1:22:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: In this thread @Actiondiver wrote ...Invoking the 5th Amendment is now substantially evident evidence of guilt according to the Supreme Court thanks to Justice Scalia, may God rest his soul. Anyone know what he's talking about here? It is detailed out in the book with court case history and references that go to the Supreme Court where Scalia wrote the majority opinions. I will go look it up and cite when I get freed up. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 1:30:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is detailed out in the book with court case history and references that go to the Supreme Court where Scalia wrote the majority opinions. I will go look it up and cite when I get freed up. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 1:52:33 PM EDT
[#6]
In the context it was posted, not talking to the police, it's ridiculous.
If i choose not to talk to cops until i have a lawyer that means I'm guilty? |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 2:06:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the context it was posted, not talking to the police, it's ridiculous. If i choose not to talk to cops until i have a lawyer that means I'm guilty? No, it doesn't. In that context, police may feel obligated or prefer to arrest you in the absence of exculpatory evidence that will later come to light from the investigation. Better to take the ride and talk to your attorney before being interviewed for all the reasons posted previously. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 2:40:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the context it was posted, not talking to the police, it's ridiculous. If i choose not to talk to cops until i have a lawyer that means I'm guilty? Just search for "Why you should not talk to cops" there are hundreds of videos out there by LEO's themselves. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 2:42:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it doesn't. In that context, police may feel obligated or prefer to arrest you in the absence of exculpatory evidence that will later come to light from the investigation. Better to take the ride and talk to your attorney before being interviewed for all the reasons posted previously. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 10:52:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: (giggle) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, it doesn't. In that context, police may feel obligated or prefer to arrest you in the absence of exculpatory evidence that will later come to light from the investigation. Better to take the ride and talk to your attorney before being interviewed for all the reasons posted previously. The police are NEVER on YOUR side. |
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Posted: 3/6/2021 2:34:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The police are NEVER on YOUR side. Huh? That's about the most stupid thing I've ever heard! Are you anti-cop or something? |
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Posted: 3/6/2021 11:23:13 AM EDT
[#12]
I am NOT giving legal advice!
That said I have been given legal advice by someone who normally charges for such advice that the course of action I should take is not to claim my 5th but rather to insist on talking with my lawyer before discussing anything. Claimed reason was because there was a Supreme Court precident that taking the 5th can be used against you in certain situations. Where on the other hand no such president exists for saying you want to talk to your lawyer first. Of course one must realize that there may also be some "drumming up business" in such advice from such a party, especially considering it being given as a "free sample" so to speak. It does at least though sound like a good plan since it's a way of saying "no" without actually saying "no" and with a very reasonable reason tacked on as an excuse. |
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Posted: 3/7/2021 5:47:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Huh? That's about the most stupid thing I've ever heard! Are you anti-cop or something? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The police are NEVER on YOUR side. Huh? That's about the most stupid thing I've ever heard! Are you anti-cop or something? Nothing "anti-cop" about it. Their job is to close cases. They are not there to exonerate you. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 12:29:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Huh? That's about the most stupid thing I've ever heard! Are you anti-cop or something? So when you’re sitting there with handcuffs on, you think the smart thing to do is get chatty? |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 2:44:36 PM EDT
[#15]
OP should consider reading this book. It's by James Duane, the attorney famous for the "Don't talk to the police video." It's a quick read, not very expensive and very understandable.
https://www.amazon.com/You-Have-Right-Remain-Innocent/dp/1503933393 |
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Posted: 3/20/2021 11:06:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Did we ever get cites to his opinions that would say this?
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Posted: 3/30/2021 11:46:44 PM EDT
[#17]
You can start with Ohio v Reiner, where the court held that you can assert a Fifth Amendment claim without admission of culpability to any crime.
In Hoffman v. United Statesthe Court stated "To sustain the privilege, it need only be evident from the implications of the question, in the setting in which it is asked, that a responsive answer to the question or an explanation of why it cannot be answered might be dangerous because injurious disclosure could result." So, under Hoffman, even if you are innocent of all crimes, but answering a question or explaining why you don't want to answer a question might be dangerous for you, perhaps by causing you to be detained or wrongly prosecuted, then you may lawfully exercise your right to remain silent. There are probably other cases that might be a little more on point, but this is the right area. |
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Posted: 3/31/2021 12:31:11 AM EDT
[#18]
From what I’ve seen many many times just saying “I do not recall” to every/any pointed question will get you off the hook every time
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Posted: 3/31/2021 11:42:05 AM EDT
[#19]
Carter v Kentucky is another case to look at. It says that a judge must instruct the jury that a defendant "is not compelled to testify, and the fact that he does not cannot be used as an inference of guilt, and should not prejudice him in any way." when a defendant has exercised that right.
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Posted: 3/31/2021 2:57:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Carter v Kentucky is another case to look at. It says that a judge must instruct the jury that a defendant "is not compelled to testify, and the fact that he does not cannot be used as an inference of guilt, and should not prejudice him in any way." when a defendant has exercised that right. That annoying (to prosecutors) thing about "presumption of innocence." You are NOT required to defend yourself, except in a very few type of cases. Those are generically referred to as "affirmative defenses." Shootings in self defense can end up in them. "I shot the guy, with intent to stop his actions. I was reasonably in fear of death or grave bodily harm." Make sure you understand WHAT is considered lethal force. In Virginia fist are not 'a priori' or 'prima facie' lethal force. You would have to point to additional circumstances. An older man facing off against a 250 pound younger man would be a start. Or disabling conditions. Or multiple assailants (only takes two in Virginia). Using a stick or other object as a striking weapon is generally considered using lethal force. There was a recent case in Virginia where a teenager used his skateboard as a striking weapon by swinging it. Passed muster as 'lethal force.' Baseball bats are easy. Lethal force if they are swung. Better to poke with them anyway in many cases. Poking is an often preferred way to use a baton. The police are not going to swing that four foot 'riot' baton. They are going to poke you with it. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 5:10:36 PM EDT
[#21]
You tell them you want a lawyer.
They cannot compel you to confess so pleading the 5th would probably only come up in court if you were called to the witness stand. Don't make this any more complicated than you have to. |
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Posted: 6/27/2021 1:48:10 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You tell them you want a lawyer. They cannot compel you to confess so pleading the 5th would probably only come up in court if you were called to the witness stand. Don't make this any more complicated than you have to. Exactly. You don't have to start quoting Law and Order or enumerating amendments. Simply go with, "Officer, I want to speak with my attorney and have him present before answering questions. Until then, I'm going to exercise my right to remain silent." And then do so. Which is the hardest part. Just shut up. Resist the urge to talk and just shut up. |
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Posted: 6/27/2021 2:12:13 AM EDT
[#23]
Asking for a lawyer isn't "taking the 1-2-3-fo-5-Fif!" That's no indication of anything.
Of course, once your lawyer gets there you're going to give a statement. If your shooting was clearly self defense-which is usually pretty obvious IF you acted reasonably - then you should either be released, or held while the investigators checks out your account. Contrary to TV cops, real detectives have plenty to do and don't want your case adding to their caseload. It's hilarious to see TV cops demanding to keep cases" This is OUR murder!" "But aren't you guys Robbery? From 3 precincts over?" "We're taking the Case!"Camera swoop in as steely-eyed detectives nod vigorously. The Theme music swells. |
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Posted: 6/27/2021 11:57:10 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So when you’re sitting there with handcuffs on, you think the smart thing to do is get chatty? Not every interaction with police is with you in handcuffs. He painted with a very broad brush stating that police are NEVER on your side. That's the most ignorant, anti-police statement I've seen in here. That's something you hear straight out of the mouth of an anti-police thug, not a reasoned, logical thinking adult. Yes, when you're the subject of an investigation their job is to close the case. But that isn't the only job of police. What about when I'm involved in a drunk driver's hit & run? Are they not on my side then? What about when I was the victim of a crime? Not on my side then? Or when I need police to serve an eviction notice to an unstable tenant, not on my side then? |
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Posted: 6/27/2021 12:55:45 PM EDT
[#25]
A question for the cops on the post.
I have been told that when the police are investigating a scenario and talking with multiple parties, perhaps at odds with each other, the cops will almost always side with or believe the person that speaks calmly, rationally and politely. While I'm not suggesting that this is all the cops go on, does this seem somewhat accurate? |
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Posted: 6/27/2021 1:04:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Asking for a lawyer isn't "taking the 1-2-3-fo-5-Fif!" That's no indication of anything. Of course, once your lawyer gets there you're going to give a statement. If your shooting was clearly self defense-which is usually pretty obvious IF you acted reasonably - then you should either be released, or held while the investigators checks out your account. Contrary to TV cops, real detectives have plenty to do and don't want your case adding to their caseload. It's hilarious to see TV cops demanding to keep cases" This is OUR murder!" "But aren't you guys Robbery? From 3 precincts over?" "We're taking the Case!"Camera swoop in as steely-eyed detectives nod vigorously. The Theme music swells. Police in some counties also look for weapons violations to charge someone acting in self defense ie young black men using illegally possessed handguns to defend themselves. |
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Posted: 6/27/2021 1:12:47 PM EDT
[#27]
I'm still tryin' to figure out they can take your DNA and it is not protected under the 5th Amendment.
But what do I know. |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 4:10:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm still tryin' to figure out they can take your DNA and it is not protected under the 5th Amendment. But what do I know. Same as fingerprints. |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 7:13:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's pretty common to be arrested around here in pretty obvious self defense cases. Police in some counties also look for weapons violations to charge someone acting in self defense ie young black men using illegally possessed handguns to defend themselves. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Asking for a lawyer isn't "taking the 1-2-3-fo-5-Fif!" That's no indication of anything. Of course, once your lawyer gets there you're going to give a statement. If your shooting was clearly self defense-which is usually pretty obvious IF you acted reasonably - then you should either be released, or held while the investigators checks out your account. Contrary to TV cops, real detectives have plenty to do and don't want your case adding to their caseload. It's hilarious to see TV cops demanding to keep cases" This is OUR murder!" "But aren't you guys Robbery? From 3 precincts over?" "We're taking the Case!"Camera swoop in as steely-eyed detectives nod vigorously. The Theme music swells. Police in some counties also look for weapons violations to charge someone acting in self defense ie young black men using illegally possessed handguns to defend themselves. No money in it? |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 1:28:07 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not every interaction with police is with you in handcuffs. He painted with a very broad brush stating that police are NEVER on your side. That's the most ignorant, anti-police statement I've seen in here. That's something you hear straight out of the mouth of an anti-police thug, not a reasoned, logical thinking adult. Yes, when you're the subject of an investigation their job is to close the case. But that isn't the only job of police. What about when I'm involved in a drunk driver's hit & run? Are they not on my side then? What about when I was the victim of a crime? Not on my side then? Or when I need police to serve an eviction notice to an unstable tenant, not on my side then? No, they are not. In any of those cases. Police are on the side of justice. Sometimes you may also find yourself on that side as well, but the police aren't on "your" side. Ever. Guess what? There are a number of times when those scenarios work out to the victim/caller/passerby getting arrested as well, for any number of reasons. So I think "the police are not on your side" is a fair statement. Especially when you might be a suspect, which is the point of this thread. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 1:28:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Same as fingerprints. Right. Or your photo. Standard booking info, non-testimonial in nature. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 2:19:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Huh? That's about the most stupid thing I've ever heard! Are you anti-cop or something? The concept is: Police are never able to grant you additional freedom or liberty in any possible/suspected criminal activity. They can either leave you alone, detain you, or arrest you. They'll never hand you an extra helping of freedom, they can only leave you alone or fuck with you. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 2:57:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The concept is: Police are never able to grant you additional freedom or liberty in any possible/suspected criminal activity. They can either leave you alone, detain you, or arrest you. They'll never hand you an extra helping of freedom, they can only leave you alone or fuck with you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Huh? That's about the most stupid thing I've ever heard! Are you anti-cop or something? The concept is: Police are never able to grant you additional freedom or liberty in any possible/suspected criminal activity. They can either leave you alone, detain you, or arrest you. They'll never hand you an extra helping of freedom, they can only leave you alone or fuck with you. Thank you. "You have the right to remain silent" Exercise it. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 4:01:07 PM EDT
[#34]
The only time invoking the 5th can have any chance of leading to a possible indication of guilt is when you answer some questions openly but AVOID other questions and hush up, but then start talking again when the interviewer changes the subject. That change in behavior is what has raised suspicions and led to further investigating and done some people in.
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Posted: 6/30/2021 7:07:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, they are not. In any of those cases. Police are on the side of justice. Sometimes you may also find yourself on that side as well, but the police aren't on "your" side. Ever. Guess what? There are a number of times when those scenarios work out to the victim/caller/passerby getting arrested as well, for any number of reasons. So I think "the police are not on your side" is a fair statement. Especially when you might be a suspect, which is the point of this thread. "Absolutely nothing." It's a term of art, nothing more. |
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Posted: 7/2/2021 10:52:08 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The concept is: Police are never able to grant you additional freedom or liberty in any possible/suspected criminal activity. They can either leave you alone, detain you, or arrest you. They'll never hand you an extra helping of freedom, they can only leave you alone or fuck with you. Quote HistoryQuoted: The concept is: Police are never able to grant you additional freedom or liberty in any possible/suspected criminal activity. They can either leave you alone, detain you, or arrest you. They'll never hand you an extra helping of freedom, they can only leave you alone or fuck with you. That is only true if you're operating under the faulty assumption that your only interactions with police are as a suspect or person of interest. However, that ISN'T true, and what you said ISN'T what he said. He said: Quoted: The police are NEVER on YOUR side. Which is an extravagantly ignorant statement. But it is on-par with the poster that posted it. |
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Posted: 7/6/2021 3:07:26 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A question for the cops on the post. I have been told that when the police are investigating a scenario and talking with multiple parties, perhaps at odds with each other, the cops will almost always side with or believe the person that speaks calmly, rationally and politely. While I'm not suggesting that this is all the cops go on, does this seem somewhat accurate? Yes and no. I'm generally going to listen to whoever talks to me. If one person wants to tell me things and the other one goes straight to "f*** you, I want my lawyer," I can only make a decision there at the scene with what I know. The problem is, I'm also thinking about congruence: This person seems calm and rational, but is he calm and rational under circumstances where a normal person would be panicking? Is he calm and rational while surrounded by two dozen people who are running around like headless chickens? Calm or polite is great when it fits into context. Calm or polite when it doesn't fit, just doesn't fit. "Doesn't fit" isn't evidence of guilt by itself but it does bring out my inner skeptic and cynic. Which doesn't invalidate any of the other advice in this thread. If I've just shot someone, fully justified, the very most I'll give at the scene is "He tried to attack me. There were a few other people with him, who took off running that way and were wearing whatever they were wearing. One of them dropped something over there. I don't want to say anything else without my lawyer." I personally also keep "I have crushing substernal chest pain and need an ambulance" in my pocket, since the two hours that a medical clearance will take will at least get me the hell off of the scene. At that point, a night in jail until my consult with my lawyer is an investment that pays off in not having the consequences of saying something stupid and easily misunderstood. Disclaimer: I'm a has-been and not currently serving, and can't speak for anybody else. |
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Posted: 7/6/2021 8:38:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes and no. I'm generally going to listen to whoever talks to me. If one person wants to tell me things and the other one goes straight to "f*** you, I want my lawyer," I can only make a decision there at the scene with what I know. The problem is, I'm also thinking about congruence: This person seems calm and rational, but is he calm and rational under circumstances where a normal person would be panicking? Is he calm and rational while surrounded by two dozen people who are running around like headless chickens? Calm or polite is great when it fits into context. Calm or polite when it doesn't fit, just doesn't fit. "Doesn't fit" isn't evidence of guilt by itself but it does bring out my inner skeptic and cynic. Which doesn't invalidate any of the other advice in this thread. If I've just shot someone, fully justified, the very most I'll give at the scene is "He tried to attack me. There were a few other people with him, who took off running that way and were wearing whatever they were wearing. One of them dropped something over there. I don't want to say anything else without my lawyer." I personally also keep "I have crushing substernal chest pain and need an ambulance" in my pocket, since the two hours that a medical clearance will take will at least get me the hell off of the scene. At that point, a night in jail until my consult with my lawyer is an investment that pays off in not having the consequences of saying something stupid and easily misunderstood. Disclaimer: I'm a has-been and not currently serving, and can't speak for anybody else. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A question for the cops on the post. I have been told that when the police are investigating a scenario and talking with multiple parties, perhaps at odds with each other, the cops will almost always side with or believe the person that speaks calmly, rationally and politely. While I'm not suggesting that this is all the cops go on, does this seem somewhat accurate? Yes and no. I'm generally going to listen to whoever talks to me. If one person wants to tell me things and the other one goes straight to "f*** you, I want my lawyer," I can only make a decision there at the scene with what I know. The problem is, I'm also thinking about congruence: This person seems calm and rational, but is he calm and rational under circumstances where a normal person would be panicking? Is he calm and rational while surrounded by two dozen people who are running around like headless chickens? Calm or polite is great when it fits into context. Calm or polite when it doesn't fit, just doesn't fit. "Doesn't fit" isn't evidence of guilt by itself but it does bring out my inner skeptic and cynic. Which doesn't invalidate any of the other advice in this thread. If I've just shot someone, fully justified, the very most I'll give at the scene is "He tried to attack me. There were a few other people with him, who took off running that way and were wearing whatever they were wearing. One of them dropped something over there. I don't want to say anything else without my lawyer." I personally also keep "I have crushing substernal chest pain and need an ambulance" in my pocket, since the two hours that a medical clearance will take will at least get me the hell off of the scene. At that point, a night in jail until my consult with my lawyer is an investment that pays off in not having the consequences of saying something stupid and easily misunderstood. Disclaimer: I'm a has-been and not currently serving, and can't speak for anybody else. It's important to remember that regardless of who the cops side with they don't ultimately make the big decisions involved. Lots of people trying to be helpful/cooperative have talked themselves into trouble that their lawyer has to attempt to fix later. Nobody wants to go to jail but I would contend that it's better to go to jail initially and not give them info/statements to use against you than it is to say the wrong thing at the time trying to clear things up and have it used against you in a court of law. Short term discomfort beats longer term incarceration. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 3:22:33 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is only true if you're operating under the faulty assumption that your only interactions with police are as a suspect or person of interest. However, that ISN'T true, and what you said ISN'T what he said. He said: Which is an extravagantly ignorant statement. But it is on-par with the poster that posted it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The concept is: Police are never able to grant you additional freedom or liberty in any possible/suspected criminal activity. They can either leave you alone, detain you, or arrest you. They'll never hand you an extra helping of freedom, they can only leave you alone or fuck with you. That is only true if you're operating under the faulty assumption that your only interactions with police are as a suspect or person of interest. However, that ISN'T true, and what you said ISN'T what he said. He said: Quoted: The police are NEVER on YOUR side. Which is an extravagantly ignorant statement. But it is on-par with the poster that posted it. You have the right to remain silent. Exercise it. The police are their to catch someone. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 10:14:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is only true if you're operating under the faulty assumption that your only interactions with police are as a suspect or person of interest. However, that ISN'T true, and what you said ISN'T what he said. He said: Which is an extravagantly ignorant statement. But it is on-par with the poster that posted it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The concept is: Police are never able to grant you additional freedom or liberty in any possible/suspected criminal activity. They can either leave you alone, detain you, or arrest you. They'll never hand you an extra helping of freedom, they can only leave you alone or fuck with you. That is only true if you're operating under the faulty assumption that your only interactions with police are as a suspect or person of interest. However, that ISN'T true, and what you said ISN'T what he said. He said: Quoted: The police are NEVER on YOUR side. Which is an extravagantly ignorant statement. But it is on-par with the poster that posted it. I did qualify my original statement to exclude situations where you want the police to help when you are the clear victim of a criminal act. Even then, there is some risk that the police will come up with some reason to arrest you for a real or imagined crime. |
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Posted: 7/11/2021 8:32:11 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm still tryin' to figure out they can take your DNA and it is not protected under the 5th Amendment. But what do I know. It’s evidence, not testimony. |
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Posted: 7/17/2021 8:06:47 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP should consider reading this book. It's by James Duane, the attorney famous for the "Don't talk to the police video." It's a quick read, not very expensive and very understandable. https://www.amazon.com/You-Have-Right-Remain-Innocent/dp/1503933393 I have that book on audible. He talks so fast, and I even speed up the playback a bit, I can listen to the whole thing in like 2.5 hours while driving around, which I do every couple months. I strongly support the police and their mission, but everyone needs to understand the way the legal system is built, and just how precious and rare the rights our founders passed down to us are. |
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