Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Site Notices
Posted: 10/3/2018 6:45:09 PM EDT
I've heard this is something of a known conundrum and am curious if any experts can chime in. I got opposite answers from two different FFLs.

My brother lives in a neighboring state and wanted to let me hang onto his pistol while he was away at grad school. Under the familiy transfer exeption, you'd think I could just take posession and we each go on our way. However since it's going across state lines that transfer would appear to violate interstate transfer laws which require an FFL be involved.

What say you? Can a family member gift/transfer a firearm to a relative in a neighboring state without an FFL transfer involved, or does that "family transfer" law only apply intrastate. Which one trumps the other?

For the record, we played it safe and met at an FFL, but I'm curious for the future.
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 6:55:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Call the batfe, ask to speak to an agent. My two experiences were great. They are there to answer questions.
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 7:08:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I've heard this is something of a known conundrum and am curious if any experts can chime in. I got opposite answers from two different FFLs.

My brother lives in a neighboring state and wanted to let me hang onto his pistol while he was away at grad school. Under the familiy transfer exeption, you'd think I could just take posession and we each go on our way. However since it's going across state lines that transfer would appear to violate interstate transfer laws which require an FFL be involved.

What say you? Can a family member gift/transfer a firearm to a relative in a neighboring state without an FFL transfer involved, or does that "family transfer" law only apply intrastate. Which one trumps the other?

For the record, we played it safe and met at an FFL, but I'm curious for the future.
View Quote
Under federal law, there is no "family" exemption/exception.  Any transfer between non-licencees that are residents of different states, must go through an FFL in the recipients state.

State laws concerning family transfers have no bearing on federal law.  Federal law takes precedence.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 7:13:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
I've heard this is something of a known conundrum and am curious if any experts can chime in. I got opposite answers from two different FFLs.

My brother lives in a neighboring state and wanted to let me hang onto his pistol while he was away at grad school. Under the familiy transfer exeption, you'd think I could just take posession and we each go on our way. However since it's going across state lines that transfer would appear to violate interstate transfer laws which require an FFL be involved.

What say you? Can a family member gift/transfer a firearm to a relative in a neighboring state without an FFL transfer involved, or does that "family transfer" law only apply intrastate. Which one trumps the other?

For the record, we played it safe and met at an FFL, but I'm curious for the future.
View Quote
No.

From the ATF "Top 10 Frequently Asked Firearms Questions and Answers"

2. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?

Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual
who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully
transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a
Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then
receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background
check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html.

The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for
lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to
go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a
lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of
a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).
View Quote
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 7:29:56 PM EDT
[#4]
D'oh....I totally forgot that the family transfer laws were state laws. Of course federal law trumps them.

Well good, sounds like we did it right. Thanks for the help.
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 7:32:04 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
From the ATF "Top 10 Frequently Asked Firearms Questions and Answers"

2. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?

Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual
who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully
transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a
Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then
receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background
check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html.

The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for
lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to
go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a
lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of
a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).
View Quote
So this is an interesting one as well. A friend said that this meant we technically had to ship the gun. I disagreed, since the above says "generally" and is referring to the modal experience. My brother and I live fairly close to our state's borders, so we just met at an FFL in my state to process the transfer.
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 8:23:19 PM EDT
[#6]
If it's just a temporary "hold on to this for me" I can't see how him just leaving it at your house the next time he visits would be a problem. He's just storing it, not changing ownership.
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 8:51:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If it's just a temporary "hold on to this for me" I can't see how him just leaving it at your house the next time he visits would be a problem. He's just storing it, not changing ownership.
View Quote
That was my initial thought and our initial plan. However I didn't want to play footsie with the ATF over what "posession" or a "transfer" is. It's not well defined, and I don't have any desire to be a test case.

Does "posession" refer to the actual owner of the item, or the one who has control of it? Could I be said to "posess" a weapon that actually belonged to my brother? In the absence of a national registry, I didn't see that going well for me. How am I to prove that it was not an illegal transfer?

Has a firearm been "transferred" if the control is intended to be temporary? Does intent have anything to do with this kind of statute?

There's enough question there, particularly on the issue of transfers, that I didn't think it worth the risk.
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 8:59:17 PM EDT
[#8]
You can lend a person in another state your firearm.
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 11:35:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If it's just a temporary "hold on to this for me" I can't see how him just leaving it at your house the next time he visits would be a problem. He's just storing it, not changing ownership.
View Quote
ATF doesn't give a rats ass about "ownership", it's a transfer of possession no matter who owns it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 11:42:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That was my initial thought and our initial plan. However I didn't want to play footsie with the ATF over what "posession" or a "transfer" is. It's not well defined, and I don't have any desire to be a test case.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That was my initial thought and our initial plan. However I didn't want to play footsie with the ATF over what "posession" or a "transfer" is. It's not well defined, and I don't have any desire to be a test case.
Yeah, it's damn well defined.

Does "posession" refer to the actual owner of the item, or the one who has control of it?
Ownership doesn't mean squat. Possession does.


Could I be said to "posess" a weapon that actually belonged to my brother?
Yes.
<-----FFL who is in possession of hundreds of silencers and a dozen guns that are owned by others.

How am I to prove that it was not an illegal transfer?
Did you do a Form 4473 at a licensed dealer?

Has a firearm been "transferred" if the control is intended to be temporary?
While the temporary loan of a firearm for sporting purposes is legal, that doesn't mean the person using it can take it out of state.

Does intent have anything to do with this kind of statute?
Well intent has a bearing on all laws. But "oops" may not be the best defense.

There's enough question there, particularly on the issue of transfers, that I didn't think it worth the risk.  
Read the FAQ's at ATF.gov
Link Posted: 10/3/2018 11:44:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You can lend a person in another state your firearm.
View Quote
Absolutely not.
You CAN temporarily lend a firearm to a resident of another state while in your state for sporting purposes. They cannot take it across state lines.
Remember, ATF has their own idea of what "sporting purpose" is.
Link Posted: 10/4/2018 12:34:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Thanks, that helps.

That was pretty much my concern. Absent a registry with a clear outline of "ownership," it will have to be defined as "the person in posession." Like you said in the example of an FFL/SOT. Makes sense.

I did the transfer at a local gun shop so I'm good to go, I just wanted to clear up the theoretical in my head.
Link Posted: 10/4/2018 3:19:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Absolutely not.
You CAN temporarily lend a firearm to a resident of another state while in your state for sporting purposes. They cannot take it across state lines.
Remember, ATF has their own idea of what "sporting purpose" is.
View Quote
Missing the in your state part?

A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he or she or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent.
Link Posted: 10/4/2018 3:38:45 PM EDT
[#14]
18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter
Link Posted: 10/4/2018 5:54:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Missing the in your state part?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Absolutely not.
You CAN temporarily lend a firearm to a resident of another state while in your state for sporting purposes. They cannot take it across state lines.
Remember, ATF has their own idea of what "sporting purpose" is.
Missing the in your state part?
But that's not what you wrote: "akethan: You can lend a person in another state your firearm."
You cannot ship a firearm across state lines for the temporary loan, that would be an interstate transfer.
You CAN loan it to a person visiting your state. He just cannot take it back with him.
Link Posted: 10/17/2018 3:24:22 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Under the familiy transfer exeption,
View Quote
There is no such thing.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:56:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Under the familiy transfer exeption, ...
View Quote

tHERE IS no such thing.
iT is not THEIR.

The ONLY exception to FFL use across state lines is the executor of an Estate.
That means the owner of the gun ios DEAD.

The executor may transfer the firearms to heirs without an FFL.
It is because the law considers the heir to OWN the property as soon as the grantor dies.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 7:36:28 AM EDT
[#18]
So let’s say someone from Texas didn’t read the law and gave their brother who lives in Arkansas a pistol. What circumstances would cause the arrest of both parties other than being caught in the act?

ETA; no I never did this, but just curious about how it’s even enforceable. If brother gets  pulled over driving back to Arkansas and leo runs number, is it game over?
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 10:44:34 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So let’s say someone from Texas didn’t read the law and gave their brother who lives in Arkansas a pistol. What circumstances would cause the arrest of both parties other than being caught in the act??
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So let’s say someone from Texas didn’t read the law and gave their brother who lives in Arkansas a pistol. What circumstances would cause the arrest of both parties other than being caught in the act??
Seriously?
The same "circumstances" that would cause a person to be charged with any felony.
Bruce Abramski can tell you why firearms laws are enforced.

ETA; no I never did this, but just curious about how it’s even enforceable.
All laws are "enforcable". Whether the US Attorneys Office chooses to prosecute doesn't mean the law can't/won't be enforced. Violating Federal firearms law means you can still have all your firearms seized by LE until your case is dropped. And that could be years. In the meantime, you can't acquire firearms or possess them.

If brother gets  pulled over driving back to Arkansas and leo runs number, is it game over
Well, being that there is no Federal gun registration, nor any in TX or AR...….what do you think will happen?
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 2:41:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So let’s say someone from Texas didn’t read the law and gave their brother who lives in Arkansas a pistol. What circumstances would cause the arrest of both parties other than being caught in the act?

ETA; no I never did this, but just curious about how it’s even enforceable. If brother gets  pulled over driving back to Arkansas and leo runs number, is it game over?
View Quote
When the current owner of the gun has the gun stolen and reports it and inadvertently volunteers that the gun was given to him by his brother in Texas. The the cop asks if he just handed him the gun.
Boom 2 guys caught a case.
Link Posted: 1/27/2019 7:36:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Seriously?
The same "circumstances" that would cause a person to be charged with any felony.
Bruce Abramski can tell you why firearms laws are enforced.

All laws are "enforcable". Whether the US Attorneys Office chooses to prosecute doesn't mean the law can't/won't be enforced. Violating Federal firearms law means you can still have all your firearms seized by LE until your case is dropped. And that could be years. In the meantime, you can't acquire firearms or possess them.

Well, being that there is no Federal gun registration, nor any in TX or AR...….what do you think will happen?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
So let’s say someone from Texas didn’t read the law and gave their brother who lives in Arkansas a pistol. What circumstances would cause the arrest of both parties other than being caught in the act??
Seriously?
The same "circumstances" that would cause a person to be charged with any felony.
Bruce Abramski can tell you why firearms laws are enforced.

ETA; no I never did this, but just curious about how it’s even enforceable.
All laws are "enforcable". Whether the US Attorneys Office chooses to prosecute doesn't mean the law can't/won't be enforced. Violating Federal firearms law means you can still have all your firearms seized by LE until your case is dropped. And that could be years. In the meantime, you can't acquire firearms or possess them.

If brother gets  pulled over driving back to Arkansas and leo runs number, is it game over
Well, being that there is no Federal gun registration, nor any in TX or AR...….what do you think will happen?
It is often the most picayune thing like a stupid traffic stop that triggers all sorts of problems.

Th Po-po run the serial number. "What are you worried about?"
Bend over and lube up.

Since it may take time for an actual trace to some back they take possession of the gun waiting on the results.

Attorneys cost hundreds of dollars an hour.
You pay them to prepare the case before trial, and then to drive to and represent you at trial.
An hour in the Courtroom can all to easily turn into at least tens of hours (if not hundreds) in preparation.

How much is that gun worth?
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top