User Panel
Posted: 3/8/2021 11:31:08 AM EDT
A sarcastic question really. I know things have changed since I retired 15 years ago but the general rule was 2 times. After the second time you were passed over you either resigned or retired cause you were done. I guess there is always that one special case, 3rd times a charm for this colonel.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/03/05/marine-colonel-gets-1-star-nomination-after-being-passed-over-promotion-3-times.html?ESRC=eb_210308.nl Marine Colonel Gets 1-Star Nomination After Being Passed Over for Promotion 3 Times "Nominated for appointment to the rank of brigadier general, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin." |
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Captain to Major in the Army is 3 times non select and you’re separated. Not sure what it is for generals, but there’s definitely more to this story than they’re saying.
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As the article states
“A Black Marine officer” Instead of “Marine Officer” He very well may be qualified, plenty of politics in the military as anywhere, but they make it about something other than his ability, which isn’t his fault, unless he’s a shitbag... |
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That’s insane. The competition for flag is beyond harsh. I’ve never heard of someone making flag without having an impeccable record and certainly never passed up for promotion. I wonder how many more qualified dudes were passed over for this?
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Can only speak to the AF side, but generally after you’re passed over the second time that was game over. You can be ”continued” to get to retirement, but you’d be very unlikely to progress after that. To make 1-star after getting passed over? That’s unheard of from my limited experience.
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Used to be twice and then you were shuffled off into the retirement (or reserves if you wanted to stay in). I've met guys who couldn't reach lt. col. All it takes is one bad evaluation and it's over.
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The thing is, this guy knows damn well he got an undeserved promotion over other people with better records and he still took the promotion. That tells me all I need to know about this “leader”.
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The AF has recently gone to a 5-year promotion opportunity window.
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Colonels can stay to 30 years for full retirement regardless of the number of times a non-select to BG.
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In my case its been 5 times passed over. Been non-selected more times than I've been promoted.
In the AF they have something called "selective continuation". Basically I wasn't selected for promotion but selected to stay in to retire. There also was an option to stay in to 24 years, which I declined. Any second active duty past 20 you're working for half pay. |
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Quoted: The thing is, this guy knows damn well he got an undeserved promotion over other people with better records and he still took the promotion. That tells me all I need to know about this “leader”. View Quote |
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I was wondering why. I opened the thread. I'm not wondering anymore.
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Quoted: Perhaps he believes that he was passed over unfairly and that he deserves this? View Quote Could be. And just because someone at the O6 level doesn’t make flag certainly does not mean they are a bad leader. It’s a numbers thing. But any even perceived bad mark will stop any O6 from flag. This guy may be a great leader but my guess instead is he will be a great and loyal progressive soldier for the dementia potus |
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So question from someone with no military background. It sounds like if you are passed over for promotion a few times that you are forced out of the military. So if you have 12 years in and want to make a career out of it, you get shown the door if you do not advance? What if you are good at your current job? Just curious because that seems like it could suck bad if you were close to retiring and got fired with no pension or benefits.
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Quoted: Could be. And just because someone at the O6 level doesn’t make flag certainly does not mean they are a bad leader. It’s a numbers thing. But any even perceived bad mark will stop any O6 from flag. This guy may be a great leader but my guess instead is he will be a great and loyal progressive soldier for the dementia potus View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Perhaps he believes that he was passed over unfairly and that he deserves this? Could be. And just because someone at the O6 level doesn’t make flag certainly does not mean they are a bad leader. It’s a numbers thing. But any even perceived bad mark will stop any O6 from flag. This guy may be a great leader but my guess instead is he will be a great and loyal progressive soldier for the dementia potus |
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Quoted: Could be. And just because someone at the O6 level doesn’t make flag certainly does not mean they are a bad leader. It’s a numbers thing. But any even perceived bad mark will stop any O6 from flag. This guy may be a great leader but my guess instead is he will be a great and loyal progressive soldier for the dementia potus View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Perhaps he believes that he was passed over unfairly and that he deserves this? Could be. And just because someone at the O6 level doesn’t make flag certainly does not mean they are a bad leader. It’s a numbers thing. But any even perceived bad mark will stop any O6 from flag. This guy may be a great leader but my guess instead is he will be a great and loyal progressive soldier for the dementia potus I think there was an article about this guy before, IIRC his record is pretty much “this is a guy who gets a star” but whether that was a manufactured thing or not I have no idea (and wouldn’t be qualified to speculate on). |
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Quoted: So question from someone with no military background. It sounds like if you are passed over for promotion a few times that you are forced out of the military. So if you have 12 years in and want to make a career out of it, you get shown the door if you do not advance? What if you are good at your current job? Just curious because that seems like it could suck bad if you were close to retiring and got fired with no pension or benefits. View Quote Non mil guy here too, but sounds like they're put on a retirement track if they're close enough. I don't know if there is a sort of age thing going on, like captain by age 25 or 30, major by 35, etc. ETA: I suspect it's harsher for enlisted. Passed over enough times, you are forced out, I'm guessing. |
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Quoted: Non mil guy here too, but sounds like they're put on a retirement track if they're close enough. I don't know if there is a sort of age thing going on, like captain by age 25 or 30, major by 35, etc. ETA: I suspect it's harsher for enlisted. Passed over enough times, you are forced out, I'm guessing. View Quote O6 is forced retired at 30. There may be an exception here or there like previous enlisted service |
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Quoted: Colonels can stay to 30 years for full retirement regardless of the number of times a non-select to BG. View Quote Col Henderson's initial commission date is 1989, so he has run out of time to stay in service without this appointment. The current time to promote to Colonel in the USMC is 22 years. The mean years of service at which an appointment for BG is granted to Colonels is 27 years. The passed over language is typically ascribed to mid-career field grade officers looking to earn their O-5 and O-6 promotions. The strength of experience of each COL is weighed against each other for the appointment nominations. The NY Times has profiled Col Henderson twice, and neither the authors or field of commentators grasp the field of Colonels. Twenty years ago, I was the HQ Co XO for a squadron which was producing 30 year Colonels, so I am familiar with the process these Marines go through. Further, my TBS squad has produced 2 full birds. |
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Quoted: So question from someone with no military background. It sounds like if you are passed over for promotion a few times that you are forced out of the military. So if you have 12 years in and want to make a career out of it, you get shown the door if you do not advance? What if you are good at your current job? Just curious because that seems like it could suck bad if you were close to retiring and got fired with no pension or benefits. View Quote That is the way it is. Depending on when you are in, promotions are slow and difficult, or fast as long as you are not stupid. |
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Bear in mind the selection rate for BG's is something like 2%, so most good guys don't make it past Colonel, even if they had O-6 command.
That being said, most of them get one chance and get the "you aren't getting promoted" call. Rarely do you see guys with that many non-selects get pulled from the above zone though. |
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Quoted: That is the way it is. Depending on when you are in, promotions are slow and difficult, or fast as long as you are not stupid. View Quote I did a single hitch as a navy MA and saw my rate go from “can’t make Chief? Got a pulse? Crossrate!” to kicking out E5s in like 3ish years. Such is military personnel management. |
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The pool of full bird Colonels in the USMC is fairly small. I believe they all get looked at annually for promotion. As long as your age and years in service don't push you out the door I don't see getting passed over for General to be the deciding factor in when a Colonels career is over. They have an expiration date. And when they hit that date they get shown the door. Becoming a General in the USMC is exceedingly rare just because the Corps is relatively small. Making Colonel in the USMC is quite an achievement.
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Quoted: As the article states “A Black Marine officer” Instead of “Marine Officer” He very well may be qualified, plenty of politics in the military as anywhere, but they make it about something other than his ability, which isn’t his fault, unless he’s a shitbag... View Quote Thought the Marines were one of the first to integrate their troops? |
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You get 3 looks. But after the second fail to promote, the statutory 3rd look is administrative and unlikely to produce results.
IF you are vested, you may remain on active duty until your high - year tenure point. (In the Navy - I don't know if other services have different cut points I suspect they are the same because Congress controls the Officer Numbers in the budget). O-4 Promotion window to O-5 is generally at 16 years - High Year tenure is 20 years (Retirement eligible - was 16 years until the late 90s which caused a lot of Officers not to stay for their Department Head tours - risk getting to 16 years, not getting promoted and no retirement to show for it) O-5 Promotion window to O-6 is generally at 19 years - High Year tenure is 26 years O-6 High Year tenure is 30 years Failing to promote to O-4 is...bad New retirement system will likely change all of this |
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Quoted: That’s insane. The competition for flag is beyond harsh. I’ve never heard of someone making flag without having an impeccable record and certainly never passed up for promotion. I wonder how many more qualified dudes were passed over for this? View Quote Especially in the Marine Corps. They have a very small number of flag billets. |
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Quoted: The pool of full bird Colonels in the USMC is fairly small. I believe they all get looked at annually for promotion. As long as your age and years in service don't push you out the door I don't see getting passed over for General to be the deciding factor in when a Colonels career is over. They have an expiration date. And when they hit that date they get shown the door. Becoming a General in the USMC is exceedingly rare just because the Corps is relatively small. Making Colonel in the USMC is quite an achievement. View Quote Being retained in the USMC to any retirement age is an achievement. For all of the Corps' flaws, their pool of field grades is the best pound for pound in the DOD by a wide margin. |
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Quoted: In my case its been 5 times passed over. Been non-selected more times than I've been promoted. In the AF they have something called "selective continuation". Basically I wasn't selected for promotion but selected to stay in to retire. There also was an option to stay in to 24 years, which I declined. Any second active duty past 20 you're working for half pay. View Quote I was taught this early in my career. Ended up doing 21 just cause thats the way the clock worked. |
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Quoted: A rare officer that understands marginal cost! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Any second active duty past 20 you're working for half pay. A rare officer that understands marginal cost! I'm not so sure about that. My first post service job I was making 2/3 of what I did in uniform, without the tax benefits. But maybe I'm an unmarketable schlub. The extra 2.5% per year of service beyond 20 was a nice bump to the pension. |
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Quoted: Thought the Marines were one of the first to integrate their troops? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: As the article states “A Black Marine officer” Instead of “Marine Officer” He very well may be qualified, plenty of politics in the military as anywhere, but they make it about something other than his ability, which isn’t his fault, unless he’s a shitbag... Thought the Marines were one of the first to integrate their troops? Read which way the wind is blowing in this country recently. |
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Quoted: I was taught this early in my career. Ended up doing 21 just cause thats the way the clock worked. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: In my case its been 5 times passed over. Been non-selected more times than I've been promoted. In the AF they have something called "selective continuation". Basically I wasn't selected for promotion but selected to stay in to retire. There also was an option to stay in to 24 years, which I declined. Any second active duty past 20 you're working for half pay. I was taught this early in my career. Ended up doing 21 just cause thats the way the clock worked. And whoever taught you that is wrong. If you go ten years without at least one promotion, you are probably garbage. |
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Quoted: Can only speak to the AF side, but generally after you’re passed over the second time that was game over. You can be ”continued” to get to retirement, but you’d be very unlikely to progress after that. To make 1-star after getting passed over? That’s unheard of from my limited experience. View Quote I personally know of an Air Force O5 who was passed over three times, then made O6. White as the pure driven snow. Just a good guy who did great work, and didn't have the right guardian angel until right up against his retirement date. Working directly for a 2-star can bring back any career, apparently. ETA: Then, once you make the next rank, it resets all the counters (time in grade, etc.) So I could see it. BTW, I think you know who I'm talking about, I think he was at the same base we were at, same time. |
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Quoted: I personally know of an Air Force O5 who was passed over three times, then made O6. White as the pure driven snow. Just a good guy who did great work, and didn't have the right guardian angel until right up against his retirement date. Working directly for a 2-star can bring back any career, apparently. ETA: Then, once you make the next rank, it resets all the counters (time in grade, etc.) So I could see it. BTW, I think you know who I'm talking about, I think he was at the same base we were at, same time. View Quote A lot of Officers fail to promote on Active Duty. Get out, remain in the reserves, and get promoted. |
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Quoted: So question from someone with no military background. It sounds like if you are passed over for promotion a few times that you are forced out of the military. So if you have 12 years in and want to make a career out of it, you get shown the door if you do not advance? What if you are good at your current job? Just curious because that seems like it could suck bad if you were close to retiring and got fired with no pension or benefits. View Quote For EM it's Up or Out. If you do not Continuously get promoted every so often you are Gone. E-5 after 10 years, E-6 after 20, I don't know what the cutoffs are now. I can only guess what the numbers for officers are. |
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Quoted: Non mil guy here too, but sounds like they're put on a retirement track if they're close enough. I don't know if there is a sort of age thing going on, like captain by age 25 or 30, major by 35, etc. ETA: I suspect it's harsher for enlisted. Passed over enough times, you are forced out, I'm guessing. View Quote In the Marines it was “up or out” for both officer and enlisted. If you make Major (O-4) or Staff Sergeant (E-6) you could basically stay for 20, as long as you did not commit a crime. |
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Quoted: And whoever taught you that is wrong. If you go ten years without at least one promotion, you are probably garbage. View Quote Not sure what you are talking about referring to promotion but I think you missed the point. Staying in beyond 20 equals working for half pay when you can retire and start another job there by collecting 2 paychecks. For me, I lined up a consulting gig about 6 months shy of retiring. It pays significantly more than I was making as a CPO. That's the theory of working for half pay. |
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Quoted: In my case its been 5 times passed over. Been non-selected more times than I've been promoted. In the AF they have something called "selective continuation". Basically I wasn't selected for promotion but selected to stay in to retire. There also was an option to stay in to 24 years, which I declined. Any second active duty past 20 you're working for half pay. View Quote For me it was 4 times in the secondary zone. |
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