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Posted: 7/6/2020 9:46:35 PM EST
Things have gone pretty crazy this year. A lot of violence and rioting. Also a lot of firearm sales and I would imagine a lot of firearm carrying by people who usually don't carry. I have seen a lot of videos of encounters where people are not handling their firearms in the best way. Remember, survival is a triangle. The three sides are Physical, Legal, and Mental survival. A failure in any of the categories is a total failure.

So lets talk about gun handling in potentially lethal encounters. Most people will never amass enough experience in potentially deadly encounters to get good at it. A normal person may be in one or two potentially deadly situations in a lifetime. Many will never be in one at all. They happen all the time to someone  though and there have been lessons learned. What we are seeing now is mostly failure in Legal and Mental areas.

Lets talk about how to apply your gun as weapon in a way that will give you the best chance of surviving Physically, Legally, and Mentally.

First, know the laws in your area. They vary widely from state to state. If you don't understand when deadly force is justified in your jurisdiction your chance of legally surviving is low. Don't guess. Don't listen to gun store lawyers. Find the people in your area who know the law and learn it even if you have to pay for it. Most concealed carry classes cover that stuff but some of them are better than others. Remember this though, most of the time no fight means you win. Don't be baited into trouble by shit talkers, etc. Don't let your emotions get the better of you if you are confronted with hostile individuals. Your only concern is if they pose a deadly threat to you. No one is going to change anyone's mind any more and who needs a bunch of hassle.

Lets talk about the couple in Missouri who defended their home with a rifle and handgun. Their tactics have been roundly criticized because they sucked. Now they are in a bunch of shit because of their gun waving. While they physically survived and seem to be legally surviving, they are mentally and financially suffering because of the incident. They confronted the mob and stirred up stuff when they didn't have to. The man could have maintained a position of advantage from which he could have watched the mob with his rifle and himself out of sight. If someone lit a Molotov cocktail in front of his house, he could have dropped him just as easily from a position of advantage as he could have out in front of his house. Plus he had no cover where he was and could have easily been shot by someone in the crowd.  Think the prosecutor would have been OK with that? I bet she would have been. An AR shoots flat out to 300 yards no problem. You don't have to close with people if you have a rifle and can see them. They went out there with guns as a warning to the mob. Guns are not an instrument of warning. They are a tool of killing. Do not use your gun to warn people. That is almost always a mistake.

This brings me to an important point about gun handling in the street. That is keep your gun out of sight. That is what fast draw is all about. If you can not make fast hits from the leather your pistol is of little use to you. You must be able to place 2 fast hits into the sternum area of a target in 1.0-1.5 seconds to be effective. This is what gives you the ability to seem non threatening and maybe deescalate while still being able to conclude the encounter at the moment of your choosing in your favor if necessary. If you can't do this start working on it. It is the main skill you need.

If you are at home or a place of business and there is not a full blown riot going on don't showboat with your rifle. Have it slung at your side or back low key while you maintain a position of advantage. It only takes a second to bring it into play. If a shit talker singles you out and starts giving you a hard time just smile, wink, and blow him a little kiss. Don't say a word. There is nothing to be gained by it. But ideally he will never see you.

I saw the guy in Philly today pointing his gun at a guy with a bike lock. I'm not sure exactly what happened in that situation but it appears it started with some shit talking and dude ended up taking the bait. Most of the stuff I am seeing is not worthy of drawing, but people are pulling their gun because they either have no draw so they have to get their gun out way ahead of time, or they are warning the person. That guy may have legal survival problems due to the hostile climate he is in. That is not going to be good for him mentally and probably financially either.

I also saw the video of a guy on a motorcycle having an AR pointed at him in Michigan. That is a clear shoot situation. The rifle wielder has no legal justification for threatening to kill the rider. However, that is a classic no fight/ you win situation. The rider is not suffering from physical, legal, or mental failure to survive even though he was justified in handling that guy.

These are turbulent times no doubt. All the more reason to be careful.  So do your best to stay out of trouble. Do not allow yourself to be baited into a no win situation. If streets are blocked just go around. There is nothing to be gained by giving the leftists what they want which is conflict and martyrs. They don't have widespread support and that is why they are trying to use fear to attain their goals.

Do not draw until it is time to shoot. And remember just because you can shoot doesn't mean you have to shoot. If you are truly forced to fire then so be it. It is a lot easier to articulate a situation in which you are forced to fire than a grayer situation esp if you live in an area where you may be politically prosecuted. It is a fine line when it comes to the moment to fire. Most of the time though if you have a lot of time to think about whether or not you should shoot you don't have to.

Do not draw on people and then have conversations with them. That is a loser for you. Maintain advantage at all times. Do not be baited into mess. Do not warn/threaten people or tell them to drop their weapon. Do not be a gun waver. I can not stress that enough.

Hopefully things will get better and we will be able to live in peace. As an American I do not see how shooting each other is going to solve our problems, and there does seem to be a faction who are all about creating the "why don't you and him fight" scenario in America. It may not get better and we may find ourselves in increasingly difficult times. But whatever happens make sure you are not manipulated into making a bad decision with a gun.





Link Posted: 7/6/2020 9:49:37 PM EST
[#1]
In on another epic BurnedOutLEO thread!
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 9:49:54 PM EST
[#2]
Damn OP.

When you are to shoot - shoot, don't talk.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 9:56:52 PM EST
[#3]
he could have dropped him just as easily from a position of advantage as he could have out in front of his house
View Quote


Wrong. The mob could have easily gone around the other side and broken in. The home owner had Zero coverage of the front door.

I have seen pictures of the woman out front by herself so evidently, she went out front first and he had to follow to keep her from being overrun.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 9:58:35 PM EST
[#4]
In
Very in
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:00:26 PM EST
[#5]
Now they are in a bunch of shit because of their gun waving.
View Quote


Wrong again. They are in trouble because Liberals don't like the Constitution that allows them to protest.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:02:14 PM EST
[#6]
Using a gun as a form of intimidation to hopefully prevent the situation where killing is necessary does have some merit.   Don’t completely discount that possibility.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:03:33 PM EST
[#7]
I love OP.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:08:36 PM EST
[#8]
Yes in!  And thanks for sharing again.  Your threads are always well thought out.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:09:33 PM EST
[#9]
IN.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:18:23 PM EST
[#10]
OP, presenting a gun can be a form of de escalation and is a well used technique in both law enforcement and self defense classes.  In many cases merely presenting a gun or making an attacker aware you are armed can prevent or end an attack without using it.  Of course in many situations a biased DA could play the other side of that card and say that the presence of the gun is an escalation or evidence of intent to harm.  It depends on the circumstances and in this case the couple would have been even more screwed if they had taken your advice and just laid in wait to start shooting into a crowd at the first perceived threat.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:31:15 PM EST
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OP, presenting a gun can be a form of de escalation and is a well used technique in both law enforcement and self defense classes.  In many cases merely presenting a gun or making an attacker aware you are armed can prevent or end an attack without using it.  Of course in many situations a biased DA could play the other side of that card and say that the presence of the gun is an escalation or evidence of intent to harm.  It depends on the circumstances and in this case the couple would have been even more screwed if they had taken your advice and just laid in wait to start shooting into a crowd at the first perceived threat.
View Quote


Lick your finger and hold it to the wind.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:41:16 PM EST
[#12]
Okay, I'll play.

I tell my wife, "If you see my gun come out of the holster, it's probably going to go off." I will not display my firearm to try to intimidate someone. If I am justified in drawing, I'm justified in shooting because at that time my life or someone else's life is in danger!

If I'm wrong I'll listen to your reasons and just maybe I'm wrong.(But I don't think so.) I'll not get in a dick measuring contest. Now is he time to discuss this not after you have shot someone.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:42:10 PM EST
[#13]
Once again, some sound advice and food for thought.  Thanks for sharing this!
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:42:36 PM EST
[#14]
I appreciate your insight. You're absolutely right in your assertion of not letting the shit talkers rile you up.

Continuing education, training, maintaining situational awareness, employing proper tactics, and quite simply exercising avoidance all prove to be prudent courses of action.

I don't expect any of this to end anytime soon.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 10:52:34 PM EST
[#15]
Lots of very good advice there. Well worth the read.

My only contention would be if I draw and actually aim the weapon at you, it is not a last ditch effort to make you stop what you are doing. I have at that point, in my mind, concluded that you are an imminent threat to my life and intend to shoot you. You have that 1-1.5s window to try and do something amazing to dissuade me otherwise.

I get it for LE and the like. I can even understand the desire to point a gun at someone to try to make them stop. A weapon at low ready, or just in view is a deterrent to most people. Those it doesn't deter will likely not give a shit whether it's pointed at them anyhow.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 11:16:34 PM EST
[#16]
When OP Hutton talks, people should listen.
Link Posted: 7/6/2020 11:29:36 PM EST
[#17]
In.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 2:53:32 AM EST
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
When OP Hutton talks, people should listen.
View Quote


This OST
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 3:20:29 AM EST
[#19]
Sounds like good advice. I'd think there would have to be times when the usual best practices for a given situation aren't the best thing to do due to extenuating circumstances. I'll take this as an incentive for me to gain more knowledge and practice to be prepared for the possibility of life threatening situations.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 3:24:02 AM EST
[#20]
200 posts
Join date 2007
in
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 3:29:57 AM EST
[#21]
Did you to the “street robberies and you” thread?   This feels like that kind of info from a solid source.  

Thanks for posting.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 3:47:34 AM EST
[#22]
Fantastic, as we’ve come to expect.

I’m reminded of this- “on the street weapons are felt, not seen”.  Incorporating your concepts from “Street Robberies”, someone who speaks the language can whisper instead of shout, and the ignorant observer doesn’t know what’s being said.

And you don’t end up on the news.  
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 7:31:14 AM EST
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Did you to the “street robberies and you” thread?   This feels like that kind of info from a solid source.  

Thanks for posting.
View Quote


It's the same author
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 7:35:39 AM EST
[#24]
Yo homie, is that my briefcase?
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 7:37:04 AM EST
[#25]
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 8:37:16 AM EST
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
When OP Hutton talks, people should listen.
View Quote

LoL


Wonder how many will get that one

Link Posted: 7/7/2020 8:52:13 AM EST
[#27]
NI!

ETA sage advice OP
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 8:55:35 AM EST
[#28]
Quoted:
Things have gone pretty crazy this year. A lot of violence and rioting. Also a lot of firearm sales and I would imagine a lot of firearm carrying by people who usually don't carry. I have seen a lot of videos of encounters where people are not handling their firearms in the best way. Remember, survival is a triangle. The three sides are Physical, Legal, and Mental survival. A failure in any of the categories is a total failure.

So lets talk about gun handling in potentially lethal encounters. Most people will never amass enough experience in potentially deadly encounters to get good at it. A normal person may be in one or two potentially deadly situations in a lifetime. Many will never be in one at all. They happen all the time to someone  though and there have been lessons learned. What we are seeing now is mostly failure in Legal and Mental areas.

Lets talk about how to apply your gun as weapon in a way that will give you the best chance of surviving Physically, Legally, and Mentally.

First, know the laws in your area. They vary widely from state to state. If you don't understand when deadly force is justified in your jurisdiction your chance of legally surviving is low. Don't guess. Don't listen to gun store lawyers. Find the people in your area who know the law and learn it even if you have to pay for it. Most concealed carry classes cover that stuff but some of them are better than others. Remember this though, most of the time no fight means you win. Don't be baited into trouble by shit talkers, etc. Don't let your emotions get the better of you if you are confronted with hostile individuals. Your only concern is if they pose a deadly threat to you. No one is going to change anyone's mind any more and who needs a bunch of hassle.

Lets talk about the couple in Missouri who defended their home with a rifle and handgun. Their tactics have been roundly criticized because they sucked. Now they are in a bunch of shit because of their gun waving. While they physically survived and seem to be legally surviving, they are mentally and financially suffering because of the incident. They confronted the mob and stirred up stuff when they didn't have to. The man could have maintained a position of advantage from which he could have watched the mob with his rifle and himself out of sight. If someone lit a Molotov cocktail in front of his house, he could have dropped him just as easily from a position of advantage as he could have out in front of his house. Plus he had no cover where he was and could have easily been shot by someone in the crowd.  Think the prosecutor would have been OK with that? I bet she would have been. An AR shoots flat out to 300 yards no problem. You don't have to close with people if you have a rifle and can see them. They went out there with guns as a warning to the mob. Guns are not an instrument of warning. They are a tool of killing. Do not use your gun to warn people. That is almost always a mistake.

This brings me to an important point about gun handling in the street. That is keep your gun out of sight. That is what fast draw is all about. If you can not make fast hits from the leather your pistol is of little use to you. You must be able to place 2 fast hits into the sternum area of a target in 1.0-1.5 seconds to be effective. This is what gives you the ability to seem non threatening and maybe deescalate while still being able to conclude the encounter at the moment of your choosing in your favor if necessary. If you can't do this start working on it. It is the main skill you need.

If you are at home or a place of business and there is not a full blown riot going on don't showboat with your rifle. Have it slung at your side or back low key while you maintain a position of advantage. It only takes a second to bring it into play. If a shit talker singles you out and starts giving you a hard time just smile, wink, and blow him a little kiss. Don't say a word. There is nothing to be gained by it. But ideally he will never see you.

I saw the guy in Philly today pointing his gun at a guy with a bike lock. I'm not sure exactly what happened in that situation but it appears it started with some shit talking and dude ended up taking the bait. Most of the stuff I am seeing is not worthy of drawing, but people are pulling their gun because they either have no draw so they have to get their gun out way ahead of time, or they are warning the person. That guy may have legal survival problems due to the hostile climate he is in. That is not going to be good for him mentally and probably financially either.

I also saw the video of a guy on a motorcycle having an AR pointed at him in Michigan. That is a clear shoot situation. The rifle wielder has no legal justification for threatening to kill the rider. However, that is a classic no fight/ you win situation. The rider is not suffering from physical, legal, or mental failure to survive even though he was justified in handling that guy.

These are turbulent times no doubt. All the more reason to be careful.  So do your best to stay out of trouble. Do not allow yourself to be baited into a no win situation. If streets are blocked just go around. There is nothing to be gained by giving the leftists what they want which is conflict and martyrs. They don't have widespread support and that is why they are trying to use fear to attain their goals.

Do not draw until it is time to shoot. And remember just because you can shoot doesn't mean you have to shoot. If you are truly forced to fire then so be it. It is a lot easier to articulate a situation in which you are forced to fire than a grayer situation esp if you live in an area where you may be politically prosecuted. It is a fine line when it comes to the moment to fire. Most of the time though if you have a lot of time to think about whether or not you should shoot you don't have to.

Do not draw on people and then have conversations with them. That is a loser for you. Maintain advantage at all times. Do not be baited into mess. Do not warn/threaten people or tell them to drop their weapon. Do not be a gun waver. I can not stress that enough.

Hopefully things will get better and we will be able to live in peace. As an American I do not see how shooting each other is going to solve our problems, and there does seem to be a faction who are all about creating the "why don't you and him fight" scenario in America. It may not get better and we may find ourselves in increasingly difficult times. But whatever happens make sure you are not manipulated into making a bad decision with a gun.





View Quote
too much caffeine today op?
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 9:25:28 AM EST
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
200 posts
Join date 2007
in
View Quote

1120 posts
Join date 2020


OP is responsible for the Street robberies and you - The Basics thread. One of the most valuable things ever posted to GD.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Street-robberies-and-you-The-Basics/5-1285487/
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 9:27:03 AM EST
[#30]
I didn't notice who the OP was, but as I read, I went back and looked, and I was right

Good to see you again
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 9:29:45 AM EST
[#31]
I like OP
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 9:35:28 AM EST
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
200 posts
Join date 2007
in
View Quote

Hush, the adults are talking.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 9:53:02 AM EST
[#33]
Like much of life there is a difference in the way things are and the way they should be.

People should be allowed to brandish in an attempt to de escalate situations.  And in fact that is what happens in millions of documented “defensive gun uses” where no shots are fired.  

And in most of those cases nothing ever happens. There are two reasons for that.  1. Bad guys don’t call cops to report you defended yourself.  2. People with guns often live in jurisdictions that wouldn’t prosecute you.

However as OP points out, in most jurisdictions if it’s not legal for you to shoot someone it’s not legal for you to brandish or point or wave your gun either.  So in this climate, especially if race and video is involved, the OPs advice is sound.

If we’re talking street robberies or home invasions a few years ago then waving your gun might make up for your lack of skill and presence enough to stop the incident without having to shoot.  

Link Posted: 7/7/2020 10:00:00 AM EST
[#34]
Very different approach compared to Street Robberies and You, where projecting that you are armed is often called for.

I'm guessing a lot of people struggle with the nuances between different situations and the appropriate responses.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 10:01:53 AM EST
[#35]
If anyone has the link to the video of the guy pulling the trailer, where a group of protesters gets ip close and he draws after the thug punches him in the head, it would be great to post it here to get the OP's take on that scenario.

BTW OP, I fully concur that your 'Street Robberies and you' thread is one of the best things ever posted in GD. I've sent that to friends to read, many a time.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 10:11:44 AM EST
[#36]
I disagree that a firearm should not be used to de-escalate, but there's no guarantee it will work.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 4:50:39 PM EST
[#37]
Bumping this

Really been working on my draw from concealed AIWB recently, for reasons that OP clarified. Specifically, working on the draw from "fence," hands up palms-out in an "I don't want trouble" gesture.

Need a shot timer...
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 4:59:29 PM EST
[#38]
Oh shit I’m on the ground floor of this one.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 5:05:43 PM EST
[#39]
Quoted:
Do not draw until it is time to shoot.
View Quote


This is a good point. I've seen a lot of situations escalate after a gun comes into play on either side.

Link Posted: 7/7/2020 5:07:38 PM EST
[#40]
We had several HUNDRED armed individuals a couple weeks ago in a nearby town “de-escalate” a situation where some Godless communists wanted to party.

I like the survival triangle concept though.

Carry On.

Link Posted: 7/7/2020 5:10:10 PM EST
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

1120 posts
Join date 2020


OP is responsible for the Street robberies and you - The Basics thread. One of the most valuable things ever posted to GD.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Street-robberies-and-you-The-Basics/5-1285487/
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
200 posts
Join date 2007
in

1120 posts
Join date 2020


OP is responsible for the Street robberies and you - The Basics thread. One of the most valuable things ever posted to GD.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Street-robberies-and-you-The-Basics/5-1285487/

It’s still in my subscribed folder.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 5:10:17 PM EST
[#42]
I saw who created this thread and had to jump in.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 5:17:21 PM EST
[#43]
Intresting read
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 5:24:16 PM EST
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Did you to the “street robberies and you” thread?   This feels like that kind of info from a solid source.  

Thanks for posting.
View Quote


Yes, he did. And this one is worth subscribing to as well.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 5:46:11 PM EST
[#45]
In.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 10:38:31 PM EST
[#46]
if anyone knows of the videos he mentions please post.  i know about the pinkshirt/ar15 dude and wife, but the bike lock i am not aware of.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 10:39:40 PM EST
[#47]
Ost.  Subscribed.  In.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 10:50:02 PM EST
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

LoL


Wonder how many will get that one

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
When OP Hutton talks, people should listen.

LoL


Wonder how many will get that one







The street robberies post has been copied and sent to a number of friends and family. Thank you.
Link Posted: 7/7/2020 11:05:35 PM EST
[#49]
Rooftop Koreans and Storefront Sikhs would disagree with not displaying a firearm.  There are times when a visible, well-armed defender(s) will deter bad behavior.  In terms of street encounters or potential mob encounters with one or two defenders, then the advice of not displaying until it's fo time is sound.
Link Posted: 7/9/2020 7:33:41 AM EST
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Bumping this

Really been working on my draw from concealed AIWB recently, for reasons that OP clarified. Specifically, working on the draw from "fence," hands up palms-out in an "I don't want trouble" gesture.

Need a shot timer...
View Quote

Why would you put your hands up like that to begin with @porchdog ?
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