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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:15:14 PM EDT
[#1]
Disadvantage 5 was a myth, AAR found glider pilots were well received and held in high regard than transport pilots.
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:17:14 PM EDT
[#2]
British glider pilots were part of the landing unit and fought with them after the landing.
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:17:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Extra $50 month jump pay for US Paratrooper.
I'll jump rather than take my chances in an engineless bird. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:18:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: British glider pilots were part of the landing unit and fought with them after the landing. A lot of American glider pilots did the same. No choice because they were behind the enemy lines and had no where to go. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:18:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Extra $50 month jump pay for US Paratrooper. I'll jump rather than take my chances in an engineless bird. Back then, or today? |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:19:22 PM EDT
[#6]
I think their relatively noiseless flight was strongly in their favor
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:19:40 PM EDT
[#7]
Cost and limited transport planes. Also, Gliders were used more than para troops.
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:22:17 PM EDT
[#8]
No jump/extra pay for glider troops = More money for the military industrial complex.
 I believe less training requirements and the ability to quickly assemble/land units intact were the biggest draw of gliders. Look at the capture of the Pegasus/Bnouville Bridge when things go right. Unfortunately most glider operations in WW2 didn't go as well ETA: Operation Husky (invasion of Sicily) was a good example of when things go (very) wrong with gliders |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:25:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Easier to get large chunks of men close to a target, relatively quietly. Can bring much more gear, the would be unsafe to jump with also.
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:26:38 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot of American glider pilots did the same. No choice because they were behind the enemy lines and had no where to go. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: British glider pilots were part of the landing unit and fought with them after the landing. A lot of American glider pilots did the same. No choice because they were behind the enemy lines and had no where to go. I read somewhere, but cannot find the reference, of a group of glider pilots that had the task of holding an intersection until relieved. First and only time in history that USAAF pilots conducted an infantry routine. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:27:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Back then, or today? WW II. It was a huge sum, double the regular private's salary. These were depression era kids who were now adults. That money could be sent home to help mom 'n dad (or wife if married). |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:30:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read somewhere, but cannot find the reference, of a group of glider pilots that had the task of holding an intersection until relieved. First and only time in history that USAAF pilots conducted an infantry routine. operation Varsity, the gliders for the 17th AB plan came up short a company so the pilots/co-pilots were told to assemble and take the objective, which they did. they fought as regular infantry for the day |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:31:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read somewhere, but cannot find the reference, of a group of glider pilots that had the task of holding an intersection until relieved. First and only time in history that USAAF pilots conducted an infantry routine. Haven't read that but it could have happened. Generally they armed themselves with whatever was available and tailed along with the paratroopers. For glider men, they could be assembled easier than shot down DC-3 pilots. They were Air Corps men and wouldn't have had much in the way of infantry training except for Basic. I wouldn't ask them to hold anything but they would be good as asst. machine gunners (feed belt into pew-pew-pew or carry boxes of boolits). |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:32:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No jump/extra pay for glider troops = More money for the military industrial complex. I believe less training requirements and the ability to quickly assemble/land units intact were the biggest draw of gliders. Look at the capture of the Pegasus/Bnouville Bridge when things go right. Unfortunately most glider operations in WW2 didn't go as well ETA: Operation Husky (invasion of Sicily) was a good example of when things go (very) wrong with gliders After Normandy, US glider troops received the same pay as paratroopers. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:32:33 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: operation Varsity, the gliders for the 17th AB plan came up short a company so the pilots/co-pilots were told to assemble and take the objective, which they did. they fought as regular infantry for the day Thanks. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:34:05 PM EDT
[#16]
The Germans shocked the world when they took Eben-Emael with apparent ease in 1940 with glider borne Fallschirmjager = instant street cred.
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:38:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Landing Zone for Paratroopers is reusable - can do multiple drops, as opposed to having a limited number of gliders you can get in a LZ before something has to be done with the gliders on the ground.
Post war, the helicopter was the solution to the glider drawbacks, and now the Osprey extends the helicopter concept by being "better" at what the helicopter was doing. Parachute drops tend to have a wide dispersion, with 25% to 35% of the troops injured in the drop, or so far off the LZ as to be out of the operation for 24 hours or more. The dispersion also leads to the challenge in putting ground units together after the drop; much WWII airborne action was conducted by LGOPs (little groups of paratroopers) rather than functioning platoons and companies. Delivering intact squads / sections on the ground make it faster to assemble platoons and companies. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:42:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: operation Varsity, the gliders for the 17th AB plan came up short a company so the pilots/co-pilots were told to assemble and take the objective, which they did. they fought as regular infantry for the day I worked with a guy that was a glider pilot during Varsity. He crashed and was injured during the landing. Really unassuming guy. He had some stories to tell. I'm lucky I had the opportunity to learn about his experience. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:49:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Look at the 1st Air Commando Group glider operations in support of Wingate and the Chindits in the CBI (Burma).
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:49:36 PM EDT
[#20]
A bit tangential, but this is a glider pilot's jacket on display at the USAF museum. The owner was a pilot who volunteered for service in the 1st Air Commando and flew in operation Thursday, a dangerous landing
behind enemy lines in Burma. His name was Jackie Coogan, better remembered as a child movie star and Uncle Fester on the Addams Family tv show. 
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Posted: 8/1/2021 9:54:22 PM EDT
[#21]
Gliders allowed rapid concentration of force at landing with decent precision, something airborne were incapable of. Helicopters fill a similar role today.
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:00:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Gliders allowed larger equipment that we can now air drop or move with a helicopter.
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:04:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gliders allowed larger equipment that we can now air drop or move with a helicopter. Like belt-fed heavy pew pews? |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:04:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Some of the German parachute drops on Greece and North Africa were complete fiascos, with helpless parachutists shot like clay pigeons and units blown out to sea or deep desert. The Allies were aware of that, and I suppose it would have encouraged development of the glider alternative.
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:08:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like belt-fed heavy pew pews? |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:11:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of the German parachute drops on Greece and North Africa were complete fiascos, with helpless parachutists shot like clay pigeons and units blown out to sea or deep desert. The Allies were aware of that, and I suppose it would have encouraged development of the glider alternative. @Mal_means_bad - what fallschirmjager jump in N. Afrika? I know Ramke's Fallschirmjager Brigade was in Panzer Gruppe Afrika, but no jump. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:12:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gliders allowed larger equipment that we can now air drop or move with a helicopter. Like jeeps and such . . .   |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:13:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like belt-fed heavy pew pews? Paratroopers jumped with light belt fed pew-pews (Guy Whidden of the 101 was a MG man). Heavy machine guns were the water cooled ones in D company of regular leg or armored infantry. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:21:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those came down in cargo canisters under chutes, but gliders could handle Jeeps and towed anti-tank guns that couldn't be tossed out of the side of a cargo plane. Heavy cargo dropped with chutes didn't happen until rear cargo ramps were a thing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Like belt-fed heavy pew pews? IIRC a 75mm pack howitzer could be dropped from a C-47, but it had to be broken down into 5 separate assemblies plus ammo. A CG-4 glider could land it fully assembled with crew and an initial supply of ammo. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:22:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Mal_means_bad - what fallschirmjager jump in N. Afrika? I know Ramke's Fallschirmjager Brigade was in Panzer Gruppe Afrika, but no jump. Edit: I see that gliders were used as well, didn't realize |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:26:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Thanks!
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:34:44 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of the German parachute drops on Greece and North Africa were complete fiascos, with helpless parachutists shot like clay pigeons and units blown out to sea or deep desert. The Allies were aware of that, and I suppose it would have encouraged development of the glider alternative. Successful use of gliders predates the North African campaign. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Eben-Emael |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:48:00 PM EDT
[#33]
I don't know about other airborne units but can say without a doubt some men in the 17th Airborne became both paratrooper AND glider infantry qualified.
My uncle was James D. Crisp a 19 year old member of the 194th GI who was KIA during the battle of the bulge. He was killed Jan 7th on Dead Man Ridge. He was a bazooka man who had just achieved a mobility kill on a tank and trying to get a reload only to find out his ast. gunner had took off leaving James alone. A machine gun on the tank spotted him and open fire hitting and damaging his tube putting it out of action. James made his way back to another position, found another bazooka and some rockets. He then made his way again under fire back to his original position and opened fire on another tank. His next shot ricochet off but his second shot knocked the track off, another mobility kill. His action by stopping the 2 tanks on a narrow front blocked others from steam rolling over the Americans position. He had reloaded and was trying to get a better position for another shot when the 88 on the first tank fired taking James head off at the shoulders. We know this because his best friend witnessed this and once he returned homeside after the war he visited my family and told the story. Thankfully, he left off the "decapitation," part when telling James mother. For that action he was awarded a Silver Star. Another family member is in possession of all of James military certificates, commendations and medals. As I said, there are 2 certificates, one for paratrooper qualification and the other for glider infantry! The bottom photo was James mother and a member of the honor guard who accompanied his body home for permanent burial. Look closely and you can almost feel the unbearable grief many a parents have shared on those horrid occasions! He was initially buried in Belgium then returned stateside to the US. Several male family members were named James in his honor.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 10:52:14 PM EDT
[#34]
If you ever find yourself in Lubbock, TX, with a couple of hours to kill (after you've been to the Buddy Holly museum downtown), drive out to the Lubbock International Air Port (LBB) which is the former site of South Plains Army Air Field where WWII glider pilots were trained between 1942 and 1945.
The former Army Air Field is now the home of the Silent Wings Museum dedicated to preserving the history of the WWII glider program. It's a fascinating place with great exhibits of aircraft made primarily from plywood and canvas. Well worth the time spent.         |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 11:24:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like belt-fed heavy pew pews? Like 75mm pack howitzers &: ammunition, 57mm (later 6 pdr) AT guns & ammunition, 1/4 ton trucks (jeeps) both as prime movers & as ambulances, medical surgical teams, etc. Parachute Infantry units didn't use water-cooled M1917 .30s and I believe that .50 M2HBs were only found in the divisional glider-borne airborne anti-aircraft battalions. And British Tetrarch light tanks were landed by British Horsa gliders on D-Day & the US M22 'Locust' light tank was designed to be delivered by British Hamilcar gliders (but never was). |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 11:44:17 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 8/1/2021 11:46:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IIRC a 75mm pack howitzer could be dropped from a C-47, but it had to be broken down into 5 separate assemblies plus ammo. A CG-4 glider could land it fully assembled with crew and an initial supply of ammo. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 11:50:32 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gliders allowed rapid concentration of force at landing with decent precision, something airborne were incapable of. Helicopters fill a similar role today. This. They brought the ass to the airborne assault. The goal of a lot of the early war parachute drops was to seize airfields so that gliders could land immediately afterwards. In theory with a large safe landing area the glider troops could land in large organized groups with heavy weapons ready to roll and can head out quickly to take an objective. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 11:52:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know about other airborne units but can say without a doubt some men in the 17th Airborne became both paratrooper AND glider infantry qualified. My uncle was James D. Crisp a 19 year old member of the 194th GI who was KIA during the battle of the bulge. He was killed Jan 7th on Dead Man Ridge. He was a bazooka man who had just achieved a mobility kill on a tank and trying to get a reload only to find out his ast. gunner had took off leaving James alone. A machine gun on the tank spotted him and open fire hitting and damaging his tube putting it out of action. James made his way back to another position, found another bazooka and some rockets. He then made his way again under fire back to his original position and opened fire on another tank. His next shot ricochet off but his second shot knocked the track off, another mobility kill. His action by stopping the 2 tanks on a narrow front blocked others from steam rolling over the Americans position. He had reloaded and was trying to get a better position for another shot when the 88 on the first tank fired taking James head off at the shoulders. We know this because his best friend witnessed this and once he returned homeside after the war he visited my family and told the story. Thankfully, he left off the "decapitation," part when telling James mother. For that action he was awarded a Silver Star. Another family member is in possession of all of James military certificates, commendations and medals. As I said, there are 2 certificates, one for paratrooper qualification and the other for glider infantry! The bottom photo was James mother and a member of the honor guard who accompanied his body home for permanent burial. Look closely and you can almost feel the unbearable grief many a parents have shared on those horrid occasions! He was initially buried in Belgium then returned stateside to the US. Several male family members were named James in his honor. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/220317/194689648_10225682154380614_243817763045-2036696.JPG It was seen as critical for morale. Early on, the 'perks' of the paratroopers (jump pay, jump boots, parachutist uniforms) really upset glidermen. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 11:52:37 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: I believe WWII was the only war in which gliders were sometimes used to deploy troops behind enemy lines. How was the decision to use gliders versus paratroops arrived at? The way I see it, the advantages and disadvantages of a glider are as follows: Advantages: 1. The unit lands together with at least some of its command structure. 2. The unit lands with its heavy gear. 3. Nobody has to be cut out of a tree. 4. Nobody breaks an ankle. 5. The unit does not have to be trained as paratroopers, which is something that not everybody can do. Disadvantages: 1. If the glider gets shot down or has a bad enough landing, ~30 guys are dead just like that. 2. The chance of the enemy killing ~30 individual paratroopers before they hit the ground is likely much lower than the chance of losing an entire glider. 3. The gliders, while theoretically recoverable, are consumables. 4. After landing, two high-value assets (the pilots) are then stuck with the unit in harm's way. 5. The pilots likely did not assimilate well with the grunts and were likely more of a liability than a help in combat. Any insight or other opinions on this one? Thanks for any replies. Got to talk to a few of the original old timers. Glider’s only advantage was that it was cheap and like helicopter troops in the modern era requires absolutely no additional training. It almost matched airborne in speed of deployment and was much much cheaper since the glider troops were all Leg (Non-Airborne) infantry who received none of the additional physical conditioning or foreign weapons training the paratroopers did. They were the cheap option. And in every book about the WWII airborne you read, everyone felt that being a Paratrooper at least gave you a good chance of hitting the ground alive. Gliders functioned just as poorly as you’d expect. Entire squads dying at once. Horrible idea. |
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Posted: 8/1/2021 11:55:09 PM EDT
[#41]
While it was always cool when the old timers came in to talk to us during All American Week, most of the guys really liked talking to the glider guys since they were less common.
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Posted: 8/2/2021 6:13:14 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look at the 1st Air Commando Group glider operations in support of Wingate and the Chindits in the CBI (Burma). My Grandfather was in that unit. They had it down to a science leapfrogging across the CBI. |
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Posted: 8/2/2021 6:53:11 AM EDT
[#43]
In one of Stephen Ambroses books (D-Day maybe?) he talk about the glider infantry not receiving the jump pay like paratroopers so a high ranking General was taken for a ride in glider. The landing was rough enough that the General walked away all banged up and a broken arm. They got the jump pay.
I forget the names of the people involved. It’s been awhile since I read that book. |
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Posted: 8/2/2021 6:57:49 AM EDT
[#44]
Gliders we’re best used for point raids like Eben Emael, Pegasus bridge, and Gran Sasso. They were also used well for AT weapons and field artillery.
Glider troops required less training and in the US were not volunteers. Original plan was an airborne division to be one PIR and two GIR. That was flipped. I do think it was a decision so much as they were in the organization. Generally if the lead wave was at night they came in the next day. In some units there was a lot of parochialism as the glider men weren’t volunteers. At the La Fiere Causeway the lead wave of the 325th took the far bank and the LT in charge received the silver star. Gavin was so convinced they would fail that he had a company from the 507th as a reserve, and gave their CO the DSC. for being in the second wave. Generally, gliders for regimental drops were not good ideas. I’m somewhat surprised some sort of ranger or commando unit wasn’t trained for them as Eben Emael and Pegasus bridge were brilliantly executed. In both cases a small number of glider pilots justified the expense. As the numbers went up and you had lots of gliders and mass produced pilots it became a hot mess and frankly paratroopers were better. |
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Posted: 8/2/2021 7:08:52 AM EDT
[#45]
#1 if the paratroopers transport plane is shot down it’s the same issue as I’d the glider is shot down.
#3 the gliders themselves were built to be expendable. Everyone knew this. The glider pilots walked back to the beach. They didn’t stay with the infantry and fight. So #4 and #5 are moot points. |
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Posted: 8/2/2021 7:15:10 AM EDT
[#46]
 Leland Orser in Saving Private Ryan (1998) |
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Posted: 8/2/2021 7:22:29 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In one of Stephen Ambroses books (D-Day maybe?) he talk about the glider infantry not receiving the jump pay like paratroopers so a high ranking General was taken for a ride in glider. The landing was rough enough that the General walked away all banged up and a broken arm. They got the jump pay. I forget the names of the people involved. It’s been awhile since I read that book. The glider badges were authorized for wear 4 days before D-Day. Jump pay for gliderborne troops was authorized in July 1944 after D-Day. |
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Posted: 8/2/2021 7:23:45 AM EDT
[#48]
Gliders took less training for everyone. You didn’t need school or practice to go for a ride and training glider pilots is so relatively easy compared to powered flight that the only way Germany was able to have anything approaching sufficient pilots is that so many had learned to fly gliders at 14. Just think about everything that isn’t necessary for a glider pilot to have proficiency. There was a pretty big difference between training German teenagers and American glider pilots though,the former learned soaring and aircraft maneuvering. A Waco wasn’t soaring anywhere and only maneuvering to a field. America did originally teach glider pilots in sailplanes but realized it was a waste of time as they really didn’t need to know how to fly that well,just land the thing.
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Posted: 8/2/2021 7:25:07 AM EDT
[#49]
The pilots are not just “pilots” they are indeed trained infantry.
The more valuable C47 and pilots don’t have to fly through the landing zone and aren’t as susceptible to flak and being shot down. |
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Posted: 8/2/2021 7:26:21 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know about other airborne units but can say without a doubt some men in the 17th Airborne became both paratrooper AND glider infantry qualified. My uncle was James D. Crisp a 19 year old member of the 194th GI who was KIA during the battle of the bulge. He was killed Jan 7th on Dead Man Ridge. He was a bazooka man who had just achieved a mobility kill on a tank and trying to get a reload only to find out his ast. gunner had took off leaving James alone. A machine gun on the tank spotted him and open fire hitting and damaging his tube putting it out of action. James made his way back to another position, found another bazooka and some rockets. He then made his way again under fire back to his original position and opened fire on another tank. His next shot ricochet off but his second shot knocked the track off, another mobility kill. His action by stopping the 2 tanks on a narrow front blocked others from steam rolling over the Americans position. He had reloaded and was trying to get a better position for another shot when the 88 on the first tank fired taking James head off at the shoulders. We know this because his best friend witnessed this and once he returned homeside after the war he visited my family and told the story. Thankfully, he left off the "decapitation," part when telling James mother. For that action he was awarded a Silver Star. Another family member is in possession of all of James military certificates, commendations and medals. As I said, there are 2 certificates, one for paratrooper qualification and the other for glider infantry! The bottom photo was James mother and a member of the honor guard who accompanied his body home for permanent burial. Look closely and you can almost feel the unbearable grief many a parents have shared on those horrid occasions! He was initially buried in Belgium then returned stateside to the US. Several male family members were named James in his honor. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/220317/194689648_10225682154380614_243817763045-2036696.JPG Thanks for posting this... |
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