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Posted: 10/18/2019 8:05:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then you have no competence to be directing a fire department of ANY size. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I heard that our local FD will not going into a house if there is ammo cooking off. Can any FD confirm that type of policy? A 3 man engine on scene with 2nd due more than 10 mins out and ammo cooking off? Yeah maybe i would say defensive mode. But you go ahead and do you. |
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Posted: 10/18/2019 8:05:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Can I just ask? Are they 100% sure this guy wasn't sniped by someone in the area of the fire.
We had a police officer killed here in Tallahassee that way. Crazy asshole set fire to his house, deputy arrived and was ambushed and murdered. |
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Posted: 10/18/2019 8:18:32 PM EDT
[#3]
Did he get hit with the bullet or the case?
When I was in the Navy, we had an AO lose an eye from a hot case from a cooked off round hitting him in the eye. |
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Posted: 10/18/2019 8:18:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This, as many rounds have been tossed in fire and just popped and traveled a few inches or even blew out the primer or side of the case and the bullet remained seated in the brass, I’d suspect that the round cooked off inside of the chamber of a firearm, or it could be some complete fluke, it doesn’t take much velocity when you’re talking a small but relatively heavy object to damage an eye. |
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Posted: 10/18/2019 8:19:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is amazing the amount of ignorance even on this firearm site. There is NO danger from ammo cooking off unless it is in a firearm chamber. Look at the posted video. *IF* the ammo is uncontained, single rounds, of common centerfire pistol or rifle calibers...sure...not much risk. But what about .50 BMG or other larger DD rounds? https://youtu.be/vJ9jOGde4ws That accurately replicates what would happen if a .50 were up against a wall or cabinet when it went off. Take it a step further, and assume that debris or other hard objects have fallen onto or around the cartridge. Anything that can act to contain the pressure is going to increase the velocity of whichever part (bullet or casing) is free to ballistically depart. About a decade ago while working at a local range I was asked to go empty the big jug of dud and damaged live rounds, and burn them with the rest of the junk pile. We poured them out with the normal garbage for the burn pit, and lit it. Within a few minutes they started popping off as you'd expect..but every once in a while stuff would depart at a high rate of speed. Metal buildings 25-50 yards away were pinging with stuff hitting them, and we decided to take cover after something moving fast enough to whiz passed between my head and the other guy with me, before pinging off the vehicle behind us. Had one of those hit an eye, it would quite possibly have taken it out. |
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Posted: 10/18/2019 8:19:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If my home was on fire, I would have to in good conscience warn the arriving firemen of the location and approximate round count of my ammo fort. |
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Posted: 10/18/2019 8:19:57 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lots of info missing from article... Was he performing interior attack......yard breathing...etc,etc,etc.. What? I've been to a ton of fires where ammo was cooking off..... Sound of shit in garages and under kitchen sinks was louder and scarier and would cause me more harm than unchambered ammo. The heat alone would cause primer to pop but most brass, shotgun shells etc that ive seen have been melted masses.... I’ve been to lots of fires with ammo cooking off. Firecrackers . The brass usually bursts .This house a few weeks back gd thousands of rounds.  Attached File Attached File What Happens When Ammo Burns? Sporting Ammunition and the Fire Fighter | SAAMI.org |
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Posted: 10/18/2019 8:26:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's amazing how people are willing to trust blindly to a single video, and ignore the existence of other possibilities. *IF* the ammo is uncontained, single rounds, of common centerfire pistol or rifle calibers...sure...not much risk. But what about .50 BMG or other larger DD rounds? https://youtu.be/vJ9jOGde4ws That accurately replicates what would happen if a .50 were up against a wall or cabinet when it went off. Take it a step further, and assume that debris or other hard objects have fallen onto or around the cartridge. Anything that can act to contain the pressure is going to increase the velocity of whichever part (bullet or casing) is free to ballistically depart. About a decade ago while working at a local range I was asked to go empty the big jug of dud and damaged live rounds, and burn them with the rest of the junk pile. We poured them out with the normal garbage for the burn pit, and lit it. Within a few minutes they started popping off as you'd expect..but every once in a while stuff would depart at a high rate of speed. Metal buildings 25-50 yards away were pinging with stuff hitting them, and we decided to take cover after something moving fast enough to whiz passed between my head and the other guy with me, before pinging off the vehicle behind us. Had one of those hit an eye, it would quite possibly have taken it out. |
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Posted: 10/18/2019 8:51:31 PM EDT
[#9]
but everyone in the GD has been saying for years that rounds that cook off can never hurt anyone.
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Posted: 10/18/2019 9:05:54 PM EDT
[#10]
1. Act as if all guns are loaded at all times.
2. Always keep firearms pointed in a safe direction. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 2:12:18 AM EDT
[#11]
Don't have a problem with the firefighters letting it go. They have no idea what else is in the area. Plenty of posts from people with "loaded" firearms around the house so they have it/them handy. Or "It comes off the belt and goes in the "safe." etc.
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Posted: 10/19/2019 2:18:38 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
but everyone in the GD has been saying for years that rounds that cook off can never hurt anyone. As already noted, it's loaded guns that are dangerous, because then the explosion is directed, rather than just have the brass case blow out. This kind of thing happens in neighborhoods where people use ovens as a place to hide their guns and as a cheap option for home heating. Every winter somebody has rounds going through their house because of it. It's the ammo + chamber in the gun, not ammo alone. ETA: Firefighter PPE is pretty durable stuff, too. Homes are full of things that will explode under heat. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 2:18:44 AM EDT
[#13]
Read the article. The way it reads, the only real solution to protect our firefighters is to never, ever store ammunition in your home. Even in firearms.
If it saves just one fireman's eye, it is worth it. 
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Posted: 10/19/2019 2:42:26 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've heard stories of departments watching houses burn down after they were told about an ammo fort. I’m still wondering why the dumb bitch that built this house didn’t put a smoke (wired) alarm in the fricken laundry room. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 4:24:08 AM EDT
[#15]
Was he wearing proper ppe?
If it was a chambered round, he'd have more than an eye injury. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 4:36:36 AM EDT
[#16]
Spray paint cans and other compressed flammables are FAR more dangerous during interior fire attack than even a garage shelf full of small arms ammo. Especially if that ammo is stored in military ammo cans (shocker).
Had a 3 bay garage fire (cause: car fire) with about 2 large shelves full of ammo popping off a couple years back. Was quite the show for the gawkers out front but a 2.5" crosslay through the side door took care of that pretty quick. 
Scariest gun related thing during a fire was actually during overhaul when we found a big ass gun safe hidden on the 2nd floor above us that was a tad overweight for the floor to safely support under normal conditions. Was working below that big bitch for quite a bit during attack. 
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Posted: 10/19/2019 5:31:58 AM EDT
[#17]
this happened in my state.
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Posted: 10/19/2019 6:51:43 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A 3 man engine on scene with 2nd due more than 10 mins out and ammo cooking off? Yeah maybe i would say defensive mode. Quote HistoryQuoted:
A 3 man engine on scene with 2nd due more than 10 mins out and ammo cooking off? Yeah maybe i would say defensive mode. Quoted:
I've been to a ton of fires where ammo was cooking off..... Sound of shit in garages and under kitchen sinks was louder and scarier and would cause me more harm than unchambered ammo. Heavy, heavy fire condition. Good engine job. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 6:59:58 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If my home was on fire, I would have to in good conscience warn the arriving firemen of the location and approximate round count of my ammo fort. I grabbed one and said hey be aware, big ammo stash over there in that room. He was like thanks, we'll watch out for it. 
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Posted: 10/19/2019 7:18:01 AM EDT
[#20]
Getting hurt but loose ammo cooking off may be a freak thing, but it can definitely happen. I picked up a kid a few years ago that lost an eye to a .22 round in a fire in his yard. The case hit his eye just about perfectly and wrecked it. A hit anywhere else would probably have just been a bruise.
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Posted: 10/19/2019 7:57:43 AM EDT
[#21]
My guess is it was a piece of brass. Ammo pops like popcorn when burned but has no real velocity and many times the bullet stays seats as the case erupts.
I've seen tests where they burned a pallet of ammo surrounded by dry wall and none of it penetrated completely through even drywall when burned. But sometimes it in the test it did have case "shrapnel" nearly make it through the drywall and if hit in the naked eye is could be dangerous. Had he worn some sort of eye protection though he would have been fine. Aerosol cans paint, oven cleaner, etc in pressurized can are more dangerous than small arms ammo when burned. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 8:28:54 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In a situation like that, you'd be hard pressed to defend an aggressive interior attack even if ammo wasn't cooking off inside. Had a job in an auto parts store once. We were slipping and sliding down the aisles. Shit was exploding all over the place. Not to mention, our gear was a fucking mess by the time it was out. Heavy, heavy fire condition. Good engine job. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A 3 man engine on scene with 2nd due more than 10 mins out and ammo cooking off? Yeah maybe i would say defensive mode. Quoted:
I've been to a ton of fires where ammo was cooking off..... Sound of shit in garages and under kitchen sinks was louder and scarier and would cause me more harm than unchambered ammo. Heavy, heavy fire condition. Good engine job.
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Posted: 10/19/2019 8:39:27 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because SAAMI and FFs say the same thing. As already noted, it's loaded guns that are dangerous, because then the explosion is directed, rather than just have the brass case blow out. This kind of thing happens in neighborhoods where people use ovens as a place to hide their guns and as a cheap option for home heating. Every winter somebody has rounds going through their house because of it. It's the ammo + chamber in the gun, not ammo alone. ETA: Firefighter PPE is pretty durable stuff, too. Homes are full of things that will explode under heat. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
but everyone in the GD has been saying for years that rounds that cook off can never hurt anyone. As already noted, it's loaded guns that are dangerous, because then the explosion is directed, rather than just have the brass case blow out. This kind of thing happens in neighborhoods where people use ovens as a place to hide their guns and as a cheap option for home heating. Every winter somebody has rounds going through their house because of it. It's the ammo + chamber in the gun, not ammo alone. ETA: Firefighter PPE is pretty durable stuff, too. Homes are full of things that will explode under heat. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 8:56:34 AM EDT
[#24]
I'd still like to know what assignment this guys was doing when hit. Interior attack? Performing salvage and over haul? Or performing task exterior of the structure?
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Posted: 10/19/2019 9:14:50 AM EDT
[#25]
Accident happened while on the job? Wouldn't he be fully covered and not need a GoFundMe?
Ans yes, it would have had to be a loaded gun cooking off and not a box of ammo. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 9:16:56 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interior attack...SCBA mask. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 9:37:26 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Loose ammo in a structure fire is mostly a non event to firefighters in proper PPE. I have used this video many times training our people and new guys at the academy on ammo fires. Now a round in a chamber, no different than pulling the trigger. The fact that it went all the way through his head, had to be in the chamber of a firearm IMHO.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 9:44:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Was he wearing proper ppe? If it was a chambered round, he'd have more than an eye injury. According to an update on a GoFundMe account, Walker-Pugh was hit by the ammo at the corner of his eye and traveled through his head, exiting behind his ear. It also caused a fractured skull and brain bleed |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 9:55:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Getting hurt but loose ammo cooking off may be a freak thing, but it can definitely happen. I picked up a kid a few years ago that lost an eye to a .22 round in a fire in his yard. The case hit his eye just about perfectly and wrecked it. A hit anywhere else would probably have just been a bruise. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 9:58:12 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The heat from the case due to the fire probably caused most of the damage to the eye over the actual impact. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 9:58:34 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Loose ammo in a structure fire is mostly a non event to firefighters in proper PPE. I have used this video many times training our people and new guys at the academy on ammo fires. Now a round in a chamber, no different than pulling the trigger. The fact that it went all the way through his head, had to be in the chamber of a firearm IMHO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4cAll firearms should be stored with a hammer down on an empty chamber. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:01:02 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know that jurisduction, but we don't go interior on trailers. But yeah, even fighting it from outside the dude should be masked up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Interior attack...SCBA mask. These newer constructed mobile homes hold up really well to fire... I guess design change, code and material of construction has changed through the years. Fuckers will hold a ton of heat too.... Gone are the days of 'they burn really quick'... Anyone else in rural areas notice this on newer mobile homes? |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:07:43 AM EDT
[#33]
Cleared all my loaded weapons one night when I woke up thinking I might be smelling smoke. Went out into the hall and could detect a tiny bit of haze. Went outside and sure enough there's the FD, turns out 1st floor unit had their HVAC smoke out. Not sure if there was ever no-shit flames, but it was enough to get smoke all the way up to me on the 3rd floor. In casual talk with one of the firefighters who went into my unit to check, mentioned that I thought I might have smelled real smoke (as opposed to someone burned their dinner) so I went ahead and checked all my firearm chambers clear, to which he grinned and said "very much appreciated". Didn't say anything about the loose ammo being a problem, though I didn't ask.
The CCW class instructor talked about the fire department just letting your house burn down if you didn't store your ammo in a fireproof safe, or at least a metal ammo can. After thinking about it myself for a bit, I mentally called bullshit knowing that a bullet needs a barrel to accelerate it. I live in an apartment, I don't have room for that many ammo cans. Or the patience to break open that many cases and move the ammo over. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:12:35 AM EDT
[#34]
Well we should probably ban ammo now
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:16:02 AM EDT
[#35]
BTDT, sounded like popcorn from outside the house. I told the firefighters about the ammo and they said "As long as it's not chambered it's no big deal if it cooks off. We have this protective gear."
They went in and handled their business like the complete professionals they were/are. 
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:17:36 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cleared all my loaded weapons one night when I woke up thinking I might be smelling smoke. Went out into the hall and could detect a tiny bit of haze. Went outside and sure enough there's the FD, turns out 1st floor unit had their HVAC smoke out. Not sure if there was ever no-shit flames, but it was enough to get smoke all the way up to me on the 3rd floor. In casual talk with one of the firefighters who went into my unit to check, mentioned that I thought I might have smelled real smoke (as opposed to someone burned their dinner) so I went ahead and checked all my firearm chambers clear, to which he grinned and said "very much appreciated". Didn't say anything about the loose ammo being a problem, though I didn't ask. The CCW class instructor talked about the fire department just letting your house burn down if you didn't store your ammo in a fireproof safe, or at least a metal ammo can. After thinking about it myself for a bit, I mentally called bullshit knowing that a bullet needs a barrel to accelerate it. I live in an apartment, I don't have room for that many ammo cans. Or the patience to break open that many cases and move the ammo over. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:20:15 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If my home was on fire, I would have to in good conscience warn the arriving firemen of the location and approximate round count of my ammo fort.
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:23:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not maybe, it had to be. It has nowhere near the velocity to do anywhere near the kind of damage described in the article. Not even .50BMG. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c What Happens When Ammo Burns? Sporting Ammunition and the Fire Fighter | SAAMI.org |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:27:03 AM EDT
[#39]
The brass can sting if it hits you.
The coals sting when thrown on your hand. No chamber not much force. Edit my experience was 5.56 |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:31:55 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've heard stories of departments watching houses burn down after they were told about an ammo fort. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:34:16 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Does this happen often? I figured the round needed to be chambered to have any real velocity. wow.... What Happens When Ammo Burns? Sporting Ammunition and the Fire Fighter | SAAMI.org |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:35:24 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I heard that our local FD will not going into a house if there is ammo cooking off. Can any FD confirm that type of policy? |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:38:41 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh tell me more about how you embrace risk reduction Chief. A 3 man engine on scene with 2nd due more than 10 mins out and ammo cooking off? Yeah maybe i would say defensive mode. But you go ahead and do you. edit : NFPA 1500, 2 in 2 out rule . They would be 1 man short |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:40:28 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Room- contents or working fire in one area we'll go in.... Fully involved or a large precentage of it involved, exterior attack. Exterior we're on air as well. These newer constructed mobile homes hold up really well to fire... I guess design change, code and material of construction has changed through the years. Fuckers will hold a ton of heat too.... Gone are the days of 'they burn really quick'... Anyone else in rural areas notice this on newer mobile homes? Yes, fire codes have changed a lot since the early Airstream days. They have also gotten to the point that if dropped on a permanent foundation, you can't tell them from a stick-build except for the HUD tag on the butt end. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 11:05:11 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's amazing how people are willing to trust blindly to a single video, and ignore the existence of other possibilities. *IF* the ammo is uncontained, single rounds, of common centerfire pistol or rifle calibers...sure...not much risk. But what about .50 BMG or other larger DD rounds? https://youtu.be/vJ9jOGde4ws That accurately replicates what would happen if a .50 were up against a wall or cabinet when it went off. Take it a step further, and assume that debris or other hard objects have fallen onto or around the cartridge. Anything that can act to contain the pressure is going to increase the velocity of whichever part (bullet or casing) is free to ballistically depart. About a decade ago while working at a local range I was asked to go empty the big jug of dud and damaged live rounds, and burn them with the rest of the junk pile. We poured them out with the normal garbage for the burn pit, and lit it. Within a few minutes they started popping off as you'd expect..but every once in a while stuff would depart at a high rate of speed. Metal buildings 25-50 yards away were pinging with stuff hitting them, and we decided to take cover after something moving fast enough to whiz passed between my head and the other guy with me, before pinging off the vehicle behind us. Had one of those hit an eye, it would quite possibly have taken it out. The small slivers of brass ALSO lack the ballistic characteristics to completely penetrate a human skull through and through, as was reported in the article from the OP. If the fireman was REALLY injured/killed by a through and through projectile impact, it had to come from a cartridge in a firearm, and not from loose rounds, even if the rounds were buried in some fire damage debris. Physics (and strength of materials) is what dictates this behavior. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 11:08:58 AM EDT
[#46]
bullshit small arms ammo is harmless laying in a fire
I have literally burned thousands of old rounds. have stood over burn barrels burning hundreds of rounds this is a myth something else did that to him or it was loaded in a rifle and cooked off |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 11:21:14 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not maybe, it had to be. It has nowhere near the velocity to do anywhere near the kind of damage described in the article. Not even .50BMG. As boy scouts, we always used to throw ammo in the campfire for entertainment. It never failed to separate the newbies and sissies real fast. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 11:27:34 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. As boy scouts, we always used to throw ammo in the campfire for entertainment. It never failed to separate the newbies and sissies real fast. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Not maybe, it had to be. It has nowhere near the velocity to do anywhere near the kind of damage described in the article. Not even .50BMG. As boy scouts, we always used to throw ammo in the campfire for entertainment. It never failed to separate the newbies and sissies real fast. 
"Someone" also got their ass beat with a belt after it managed to shoot grandma through the foot and they couldn't hide their guilty face. 
I still feel bad.
No idea how it did it, just really bad luck, but there are no absolutes. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 11:33:04 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If my home was on fire, I would have to in good conscience warn the arriving firemen of the location and approximate round count of my ammo fort. 
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Posted: 10/19/2019 11:47:59 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If my home was on fire, I would have to in good conscience warn the arriving firemen of the location and approximate round count of my ammo fort. I would get out all I could and just tell them to let it burn. No need in endangering someone's well being over stuff. I would just go rent a place until I get the insurance check and build another home. |
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