Seems like a good excuse to buy an MP5SD

They took my money.  Waiting on shipping notice.

Mike

GTDist appears to have the cheapest 147 HST currently ($19.99/box), 124+P has sold out since I looked at it yesterday. Unclear if they do anything to verify the "I'm a sworn LEO" checkbox after ordering. For those who live in TX and GA where GTDist has stores and charges sales tax for online orders, the next cheapest looks to be Streicher's, who has 147 in stock for $21.99 and 124+P is "reserve now - we won't charge you until it ships, usually 1-2 weeks." I ordered a case of the 147 HST from Streicher's yesterday to top off my supply. Shipping was free, and I got the UPS notification a few hours ago. No LE checkbox, form, or follow up request for creds.

Apparently that's going to be the official line. I received that same message in reply to a message on their FB page, and so did another poster above. I replied back to get verification that the "packaging configuration" they're referring to is 50rd boxes and that "class of trade" means LE only. Also asked if this applies to Gold Dot as well.

Double post deleted.

I've sent Federal a message stating I won't be purchasing their HST with a "civilian tax".

I've also sent polite messages to my go to online ammo suppliers stating I'll continue to patronize them, but not for Federal ammo.

Bitching on a forum means nothing to them.

Contacting them may get some attention.

If the sales of HST drop by a noticeable amount, that might really get some attention.  I can't imagine in the current salad days any ammunition dealers are rolling in money and can laugh off lost sales.

Are most you guys getting the standard 147’s over the 147+p for any particular reason? Have some of the 147 +p already and would like to keep it the same but will consider the standard 147 or the 124+p if there a performance difference.

I thought we liked capitalism?! Lol...you guys!

Don't worry fellas, I'll get it for you, but I've gotta make a decent profit on it, maybe $10 per box or so, because capitalism. And freedom.

I think you’re just seeing the credit card hold which happens when you place the order.

Exactly the point. Those of us who refuse to buy 20rds for the same price as 50rds are going to be voting with our wallets, and making our reasoning plain to Vista/Federal. That's fundamental to capitalism...

Outside of these forums, LEO and shooting groups I wouldn't be able to find 3 gun owners who even know these rounds are available in 50 round boxes.

The masses have been able to take advantage of the law enforcement pricing on this ammo for a long time by obtaining it from distributors who weren't well regulated by the company supplying the ammo. That time is now over and everyone is losing their minds.

The idea that there are so many comparable options for SD ammo that are sold by the 50 round box for the same price is hilarious.

Buy a couple of boxes of your desired weight of HST.

Shoot over chrono.

Load that weight in cheap ball projectiles to the same velocity you recorded on the chrono.

Train with your handloads.

There.  Now you don't need to buy a bunch of HST.   Unless you're getting into gunfights on a regular basis.

I just cant believe business can be so good to go and piss off a large portion of your customers

thanks for the heads up, snagged some 147 cheap while I could from GTD, curious to see if they actually ask for verification.  I'll keep you posted on it

Large portion?   Outside of ARFCOM, how many people do you know buys HST in large quantities?

500- 124’s on the way.

Email sent to Vista Outdoors, I guess I need to start looking for other brands of ammo.

CCI SV 22LR is my go to .22 ammo.

Gold Dots and HST are my hand gun defense ammo.

Speer Lawman is my go factory load for 9mm practice ammo.

Federal Fusion, is a great 5.56 and 6.8SPC ammo.

This BS pisses me off, I guess more S&B for me.

Anyone who carries a gun seriously

I know tons of people who aren't on this site, huge into guns and carry HST

that may be debatable

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

How many of those people train extensively with their duty ammo versus ball ammo?
And I don't mean periodically burning up their old carry ammo on an annual or semi-annual basis.

I think they make way more selling to the industry than us

Availability, mainly. The 147+P has been less consistently available than any other 9mm HST load, and the tests I've seen show very small differences in performance that weren't worth the hassle to me. For example (from DocGKR):

9 mm 147 gr +P HST (P9HST4) at 1069 fps:
BG: Pen = 14.4, RD = 0.64, RL = 0.41, RW = 147.5
4LD: Pen = 16.3, RD = 0.59, RL = 0.43, RW = 147.8

9 mm Fed 147 gr HST (P9HST2) at 1005 fps:
BG: Pen = 14.0, RD = 0.65, RL = 0.41, RW = 147.6
4LD: Pen = 16.5, RD = 0.60, RL = 0.53, RW = 147.5

Really all the HST varieties perform very well, even their vanilla 124 grain standard pressure. The differences in terminal performance at this level aren't really worth getting too wound up about. Flip a coin or make a decision based on what shoots the best for you, what most closely matches your preferred practice ammo, and availability/what you can afford to shoot enough of to verify reliability.

Does believing in capitalism mean that the customer has to bend over and take it when a company changes prices or policies? Other than a couple guys saying Vista is a monopoly, I don't think anyone has said the government needs to step in and do something. We're talking about voting with our wallets, voicing our complaints to the company, and evaluating the other choices available for less money or with fewer BS policies. Sounds like the essence of the free market to me.

"The masses" were paying what the free market decided HST was worth, which recently was $350-$400 a case. Now it looks like Vista is going to artificially restrict the supply of 50rd boxes based on whether or not you're one of the king's men so that our only choices are going to be significantly more expensive 50rd boxes from grey market sources willing to risk Vista's ire, or the absurdly priced 20rd boxes (a bit under $1/round at the cheapest places I found online). They're free to conduct their business as they choose, and I'm free to tell them to fuck off.

And as far as comparable options in 50rd boxes, Bone Frog had Critical Duty 135+P for $23/box until yesterday when it sold out because of the mini-panic on SD ammo this news has apparently caused. I expect it will be back unless Hornady get froggy too. At TargetSports, Golden Saber 147gr is $16.99/box and 124gr+P bonded is $19.99/box .

True, but I bet the people that knew about it shoot volume. Occasional shooters will buy 1 or 2 20 round boxes at ridiculous prices and never shoot it. It sits in the nightstand drawer with the gun, and they are not repeat customers. Those that actually shoot it buy by the case in 50 rd boxes. Cut off our supply at reasonable prices, and watch sales drop. Or I could be wrong. We'll see if they stick with the policy after a few quarters of earnings are in for their comparison.

Yes they do, I just got an email from GT asking for credentials for an order placed yesterday. Attached File

The problem is the profit for Vista in HST has never been in civilian sales, it is from agency contracts. Ultimately the only people that run a chance of being hurt financially here, aside from customers that insist on buying the best, are the online sellers like SG Ammo.

Standard 147gr is subsonic.

+P isn't.

I think I have it figured out how to cut Federal out of my life altogether:

9mm--I'll continue to buy IMI 158.  I have some Fiocchi 158 and have been meaning to try the Prvi Partizan.
.45 ACP---I think I'll switch to S&B, I hear good things about their 230gr ball

5.56---I'll move to IMI for M193 and M855
7.62---I was already using Fiocchi 308A for blasting ammo but when my stash of M118LR and 762FGMM runs out I'll move to the slightly cheaper IMI 175gr Razorcore
300 Blackout---I'm already using Fiocchi and S&B only, no change needed

While not impossible for a stray round to go supersonic unless it is a really cold day or your barrel is really long it isn't likely.  In a PCC yeah, I'd avoid it.

But even from a 5" barrel the highest "flyer" I've seen velocity wise was like 1102 fps.  It was a 95 degree day though so even that didn't go supersonic on me.

Honestly I think a full boycott of all their brands is the only way to make them take notice. It would have to be very widespread and very public. Unfortunately at that point it will also get media attention and “LE Only” ammo will be the new “cop killer” bullets.

This is a prime example of why offering discounts to one particular group, be they military, cops, senior citizens, or whatever, can actually turn out to be a bad business decision. Because, eventually, those customers not entitled to the offered discount get pissed either when they are denied it initially or when they've been getting it for awhile and are told they're not going to get it any longer.

That's all this is, people.

Vista has been making available two different sized packages of certain products: 20 round boxes and 50 round boxes. The 20-round boxes are intended to be offered to the general public at one price and the 50-round boxes are intended to be sold to LE for a price discounted heavily from the price of the 20-round boxes as a way to get their ammo into more LE duty guns and as a way to make it a bit more affordable for those cops who may have to buy their own ammo or who want to practice using the same rounds as they use on duty.

For years, however, many retailers have ignored Vista's policies and have been selling the 50-round boxes to whomever has had the money. Why not? The retailer is still making a profit, obviously, or they wouldn't do it. Now, however, Vista is calling their hole cards. They have contracts with those distributors and retailers in which the distributors and retailers have agreed to not sell the heavily discounted boxes to people not included in the parameters of the discount program. Failure to abide by those contracts could mean loss of wholesale access for those distributors and retailers-at least loss of access to the size boxes for sale to LE clients.

It's no different than any of the other companies, such as Surefire, Glock, L3, or others, who have a MAP program. If Glock catches dealers selling Blue Label guns to non-qualified people, Glock will pull the dealer's Blue Label privileges.

Remember one of ARFCOM's favorite mantras: Their business, their rules.

And, no, I'm not a cop. I am someone who has in the past (as recently as this week, in fact) enjoyed taking advantage of retailers who ignored their contractual obligations and sold me ammo at a deeply discounted price. I ordered a box of 50 Speer 124gr +p from BFGC on Tuesday night. I got the shipping confirmation yesterday. I guess I'll have to decide what to do in the future. I can either live with what I have already, buy 20 round boxes, or lie and tell a retailer that I'm entitled to the discount (I wonder if that constitutes impersonating a LEO?).

I stick with the standard pressure to keep it subsonic through MP5s.

Makes sense for your application.

If I had a 7" or longer barrel you can bet I'd be sticking to standard pressure 147s too.

Those who buy the 20rd boxes won't know anything changed.

Police and those who have credentials, if they care enough to deal with paperwork then nothing much changed probably.  Prices do seem to be at 40cpr vs. 35cpr from better times in the past year or two.

People like me who buy a case of good defensive hollow point stuff will make that case last a very very long time.  I agree with the person who said to work up a handload using ball ammo similar in bullet weight and velocity to your carry ammo and practice with it.

There are work arounds for this as the thread shows.  I am wondering how many ammo dealers on the net surf arfcom and caught this thread though.

I have enough on hand it really does not matter much to me in my personal picture of the expected future.

Thing is, people should be looking at things with the consideration that this is vista saying your life is going to cost more to protect with their ammo.

So who has the cheapest 147 hst in stock right now?

Attached File
6

So "yes" is what they meant to say.

I dont have the time or the brain power to argue the point with them.  Feel free to dogpile.

I'm sure those 20rd boxes just sit and sit and sit in their warehouses (only dipshits who only buy things at gunstores are probably buying them) compared to the massive shipments of 50rd boxes that they do so they thought they'd do something about it.

SGA has really jacked up their SD loadings this week since I last bought some this summer. I used to stick with them due to them keeping prices reasonable during panics but may look elsewhere now

I may become a Golden Saber from Target Sports guy now

Streicher's unless I've missed a better source. Ordered yesterday, UPS shipping confirmation today, nothing on the page or in any followup asking for LE creds. Shipping for orders over $100 is free, under $100 it was $5.

GT is out of stock on 147gr HST at $19.99/50

Honestly, after a year of "a panic is coming!" emails from SGA and now this price hike (oh, by the way they listed a box of 50 147 gr HST at $29.95 as a "Great Deal!") I think I'm switching to TargetSports.

Great deals, they ship promptly, not constantly trying to convince me of a panic and they'll sell Golden Saber at a reasonable price.

Maybe I'll send them a thank you note for increasing the value of my HST stash by 50%.

This right here. Everyone commenting should be made to read it.

There's a third option in there - buy something else.

I'm sure no one has been losing money for the years 50 round boxes were sold at competitive prices.  I'm also guessing quite a bit fewer 50 round boxes are going to be sold at the new "pick up that can" prices.

It's really no different than McDonald's giving senior citizens a small coffee for a quarter, rather than the usual price. Some minimum wage counter jockey may have hooked up non-seniors for years by ringing up their coffee as senior coffees, letting them get a really cheap cup of joe. Once the GM finds out, though, he's going to tell the counter jockey to start charging proper pricing or the counter jockey is going to lose their job.

Is the manager wrong for expecting the cashier to start following the rules, or is the cashier wrong for disobeying the rules for years?

The young customers might be pissed because they now have to pay more for their coffee, but they shouldn't be mad at the manager. Instead, they ought to be happy they got away with it for as long as they did.

They require credentials.

No one is saying they can't do whatever they want.

I can afford all the HST I could ever need at the new 100% price increase.

However, as a matter of principle I refuse.  Don't piss down my neck and tell me it is raining.

If you had used a different example I might have argued about comparing concessions to life saving devices but coffee IS life!

You aren’t wrong and they have the right to market their product however they like but some backlash is to be expected, it will be interesting  to see how they and the online sellers react to it, I’m guessing the ammo companies will just ignore it and the online retailers will start pushing other products. Maybe Lucky Gunner will do a special series on non-LE hollowpoint ammunition.

Or, we can take our business elsewhere and tell the manager to go fuck himself.  See how that works?  Hurray for capitalism!!

Register your account and use code WELCOME for 10% off.

I haven't seen anywhere that a retailer wasn't being upfront and honest about it being a requirement from Vista due to special LE pricing on certain quantity sized packaging. They're pissing down your neck and telling you it's urine.

If they were trying to pass it off as some sort of government regulation regarding LE-only ammunition, that would be pissing down your neck and telling you it's raining.