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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:35:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Never considered that but seems like a huge no go
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:36:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Generally, you can use BP in place of SP if you are in a real pinch.
You should never use SP in place of BP, unless it is a BP substitute, like pyrodex. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:36:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Watch your cornhole bud
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:37:09 PM EDT
[#4]
You can safely shoot black powder 12ga shells out of a manual action modern shotgun
I have seen a .45 acp 1911 run with black powder loads |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:37:53 PM EDT
[#5]
I’ve wondered about this myself. Interested in replies.
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:38:34 PM EDT
[#6]
His name was 01ZULU...
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:38:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never considered that but seems like a huge no go There has to be a balance point where it could be done safely Smaller explosion equals less force thought process I don’t know what that point would be though I’m not one that has reloaded for two decades like some round here. But put in a shitty situation I’d damn sure start light and work up a load before I’d give you the homestead or starve to death |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:42:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Black powder in shotgun and low pressure pistol/rifle rounds is easy. Pistol/rifle fill case from drop tube compress with dowel to base of bullet location then seat bullet. Shotgun shells just follow guidelines for black powder Shotgun in same gauge.
Unless the black powder firearm is designed for it don't touch off modern powder in one! Most aren't designed for the pressure. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:43:31 PM EDT
[#9]
45/70 predates smokeless powder.
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:45:42 PM EDT
[#10]
I strongly suggest you don’t.
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:46:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally, you can use BP in place of SP if you are in a real pinch. You should never use SP in place of BP, unless it is a BP substitute, like pyrodex. To use BP in place of SP is it a 1 to 1 ratio |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:46:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally, you can use BP in place of SP if you are in a real pinch. You should never use SP in place of BP, unless it is a BP substitute, like pyrodex. This. MOST cases, a case full of black will be safe(research first). Most likely won't cycle a semiauto. Smokeless in a blackpowder is a wonderful way to wind up missing a face. Yes, you can math out the burn rates and pressure and come up with a "safe" load of certain smokeless, but the vast majority of people who would use smokeless instead of black, are the type of people who would substitute 75 grains of 4895 for 75 grains of black, because they're both "black", and both gunpowder. The lucky ones go directly to the hospital and receive a very large bill. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:47:04 PM EDT
[#13]
BP cannot have air gaps, so you load based on case volume. It's doable in straight walled stuff like revolver ammo. I have a bunch of .45 Colt loaded with BP. Shoots well and fairly hot out of my Cimarron SAA.
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:48:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Watch your cornhole bud Always This whole thought came up as I was thinking about a potential non regulated firearm project. Black powder toy Figured it’d be a good one to get info on from all angles as any rate |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:51:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Black powder in shotgun and low pressure pistol/rifle rounds is easy. Pistol/rifle fill case from drop tube compress with dowel to base of bullet location then seat bullet. Shotgun shells just follow guidelines for black powder Shotgun in same gauge. Unless the black powder firearm is designed for it don't touch off modern powder in one! Most aren't designed for the pressure. Would that be due mostly to chamber wall thickness |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:53:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. MOST cases, a case full of black will be safe(research first). Most likely won't cycle a semiauto. Smokeless in a blackpowder is a wonderful way to wind up missing a face. Yes, you can math out the burn rates and pressure and come up with a "safe" load of certain smokeless, but the vast majority of people who would use smokeless instead of black, are the type of people who would substitute 75 grains of 4895 for 75 grains of black, because they're both "black", and both gunpowder. The lucky ones go directly to the hospital and receive a very large bill. Highlighted. Sounds like black powder wouldn’t cycle an AR in a pinch scenario Or would it |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:54:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Highlighted. Sounds like black powder wouldn't cycle an AR in a pinch scenario Or would it Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This. MOST cases, a case full of black will be safe(research first). Most likely won't cycle a semiauto. Smokeless in a blackpowder is a wonderful way to wind up missing a face. Yes, you can math out the burn rates and pressure and come up with a "safe" load of certain smokeless, but the vast majority of people who would use smokeless instead of black, are the type of people who would substitute 75 grains of 4895 for 75 grains of black, because they're both "black", and both gunpowder. The lucky ones go directly to the hospital and receive a very large bill. Highlighted. Sounds like black powder wouldn't cycle an AR in a pinch scenario Or would it |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:54:24 PM EDT
[#18]
In the late 70's I was out of powder, and broke. 30-06 loaded with black powder worked great.
Would not hesitate if that's all I had. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:55:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Biggest problem with substituting smokeless for black is case volume(or in this case, chamber volume) makes a big difference in pressure. Since .45-70 was originally a BP round, you can use 70 grains of black powder.
A level 1(trapdoor safe) load with smokeless is 46.5 grains of IMR4064 over a cast 405 grain bullet, according to the IMR website. This load is safe if the bullet is seated to the proper depth. Seating the bullet deeper compresses the powder and increases the pressure when it ignites. Too much compression turns a safe load into a pipe bomb. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:55:30 PM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:58:22 PM EDT
[#21]
I met someone who shot modern propellant in his damascus steel smoothbores. He kept the charge very very low.
He's either braver or more foolhardy that I. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:58:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Highlighted. Sounds like black powder wouldn’t cycle an AR in a pinch scenario Or would it Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This. MOST cases, a case full of black will be safe(research first). Most likely won't cycle a semiauto. Smokeless in a blackpowder is a wonderful way to wind up missing a face. Yes, you can math out the burn rates and pressure and come up with a "safe" load of certain smokeless, but the vast majority of people who would use smokeless instead of black, are the type of people who would substitute 75 grains of 4895 for 75 grains of black, because they're both "black", and both gunpowder. The lucky ones go directly to the hospital and receive a very large bill. Highlighted. Sounds like black powder wouldn’t cycle an AR in a pinch scenario Or would it Highly unlikely. A recoil operated semi would have a better chance. There was an article in SAR, probably about 2 decades ago, where the author got a 1911 to function on BP loads for a couple mags before the BP fouling locked it up. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 9:59:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 45/70 predates smokeless powder. Yep, I have a M1894 trap door, it was black powder, I load smokeless powder loads. Can't fire modern smokeless full loads but down loaded smokeless is safe. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 10:03:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think you can fit enough powder in a .223 case to do it. Even if you could, it would probably clog up in less than a mag. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: This. MOST cases, a case full of black will be safe(research first). Most likely won't cycle a semiauto. Smokeless in a blackpowder is a wonderful way to wind up missing a face. Yes, you can math out the burn rates and pressure and come up with a "safe" load of certain smokeless, but the vast majority of people who would use smokeless instead of black, are the type of people who would substitute 75 grains of 4895 for 75 grains of black, because they're both "black", and both gunpowder. The lucky ones go directly to the hospital and receive a very large bill. Highlighted. Sounds like black powder wouldn't cycle an AR in a pinch scenario Or would it Well damn |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 10:03:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Cartridges labeled “Special” were designed to be capable of being loaded with either. Shoot the factory smokeless powders loaded ammo, and then reload the case with black powder.
.38 Special mostly provides the same ballistics with either powder. Same goes for .44 Special. .32 Winchester Special was developed to have a cartridge similar to .30/30, but that would perform well when loaded with black powder. Any cartridge developed for black powder will of course still work with black powder. Think .45 Colt and .45/70. .357 and .44 magnum will provide .38 and .44 Special ballistics when loaded with black. Rifle cartridges like .30/06 can be loaded with black, but will be ballistically inferior. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 10:05:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Biggest problem with substituting smokeless for black is case volume(or in this case, chamber volume) makes a big difference in pressure. Since .45-70 was originally a BP round, you can use 70 grains of black powder. A level 1(trapdoor safe) load with smokeless is 46.5 grains of IMR4064 over a cast 405 grain bullet, according to the IMR website. This load is safe if the bullet is seated to the proper depth. Seating the bullet deeper compresses the powder and increases the pressure when it ignites. Too much compression turns a safe load into a pipe bomb. That’s good info Yup blowing shit up isn’t desirable |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 10:08:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, I have a M1894 trap door, it was black powder, I load smokeless powder loads. Can't fire modern smokeless full loads but down loaded smokeless is safe. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 45/70 predates smokeless powder. Yep, I have a M1894 trap door, it was black powder, I load smokeless powder loads. Can't fire modern smokeless full loads but down loaded smokeless is safe. Your black powder-spec loads are "full power" loads. Seriously. They are what the caliber was designed to do. Marlin and Ruger level loads can be seen as +P and +P+ IMO. With modern powder, in the right gun, you can hotrod .45-70 enough to safely outperform .45-110. But your shoulder will hate you. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 10:10:36 PM EDT
[#28]
There are still a few BP cartridges still around and kicking. I would imagine taking an old cartridge back to it;s roots would be fine.
No SP in a BP with a few exceptions (cartridge conversion cylinders in old BP revolvers as an example). |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 10:12:38 PM EDT
[#29]
Those who are saying that a bottle necked rifle cartridge is dangerous if loaded with black powder must not know about the first .303 British cartridges.
They were loaded with black powder. Now ballistics will be poor, and fouling will be a serious problem, but they won’t be dangerous to fire. Look at the .32/20, .38/40, and .44/40. All bottle neck cases. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 10:13:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 45/70 predates smokeless powder. Yeah, there are a few old black powder cartridges that never died and transitioned to smokeless. I've heard that the pressure curve is different, even in equivalent power levels though. It is suggested to not use it in originals with suspect metallurgy. Who knows how valid that is in reality? |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 10:28:46 PM EDT
[#31]
It's been done (blackpowder in modern firearms).
 AK 47 with blackpowder loads.  Black Powder AR-15!  Glock Torture Test with Black Powder I can't imagine a scenario where I have a supply of smokeless powder but no firearms to shoot it in. |
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Posted: 5/20/2022 10:38:10 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 5/20/2022 11:08:23 PM EDT
[#33]
I think with most cartridges you could load them safely with black powder. The pressure curves would be pretty stable if done right, performance would be the biggest casualty.
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Posted: 5/20/2022 11:12:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To use BP in place of SP is it a 1 to 1 ratio NO NO NO There must be no airspace in a cartridge case loaded with black powder. Best if it's slightly compressed. Some old loads were extremely compressed. With airspace between the powder and bullet then the bullet can act like an obstruction and give an unpleasant surprise. |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 12:59:57 AM EDT
[#35]
I have reloaded 30-30 with black powder.
40 grains fills the case and slightly compresses it in the case. Gets about 1400 fps in a 20" model 94 Winchester. 8mm Mauser with a full case about 70 grains got 1700 fps with a 154gr bullet. Just did it out of curiosity to see what would happen. |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 1:11:03 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 45/70 predates smokeless powder. Yep |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 1:15:18 AM EDT
[#37]
If you're to the point of substituting black powder in a modern semi auto, you'd probably be better served with some sneaking skills and a polearm.
Or a bow/crossbow. |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 1:57:40 AM EDT
[#38]
I bought a Rem 700 muzzle loader and had it built to shoot smokeless powder. The load I use sends a 40 cal 190gr bullet at 2900 fps. I can load it hotter but this good.
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Posted: 5/21/2022 2:11:37 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally, you can use BP in place of SP if you are in a real pinch. You should never use SP in place of BP, unless it is a BP substitute, like pyrodex. |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 2:14:36 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote History |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 3:05:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is my understanding as well, at least in straight wall cartridges my understanding is you can fill it to the brim and then compact black powder and be fine. I loaded up some .357 mag that way for a blackhawk for a smokey good time once. Worked fine, but cleanup is a PITA. Why does everyone insist that it’s a PITA to clean BP soot? Literally just wash it out and hose it down with WD-40, wipe that off and wipe with gun oil. And that’s the more complicated method. |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 3:39:30 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Yea yea I know. Black powder is black powder. Smokeless powder is smokeless powder. They don't mix But What if you couldn't get the proper smokeless powered and all you have available is black powder. Or you need black powder and only have modern smokeless powder Is there a ratio that can be used as substitute. Pick whichever scenario or as many scenarios that you have knowledge with. Take into consideration primers. Using modern primers with black powder. Or using percussion caps with modern powder. Even as far as reloading your own primers either corrosive or non corrosive type Let's pool some knowledge and not get anyone blown the fuck up. With the current and future ammo situation this could help one hell of a lot of people be able to eat and defend their homestead Say SHTF and there's zero rifle powder available. But you can make you own black powder How about for a shotgun. Use black powder in modern shotgun Or use black powder in modern pistol Use modern powder in a black powder rifle Use modern powder in black powder shotgun Use modern powder in black powder handgun (ETA changed title to BP substitutes SP. fits more in line with what folks may need to do if SHTF) |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 3:48:51 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those who are saying that a bottle necked rifle cartridge is dangerous if loaded with black powder must not know about the first .303 British cartridges. They were loaded with black powder. Now ballistics will be poor, and fouling will be a serious problem, but they won’t be dangerous to fire. Look at the .32/20, .38/40, and .44/40. All bottle neck cases. I kinda want to load an enfield with BP now |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 3:57:30 AM EDT
[#44]
Phill Sharpe's original reloading manuals, the 1950's(?) addition, 900 page addition has bp loads for many modern( at that time) cartridges. One being 30-06. Good reading.
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Posted: 5/21/2022 4:18:10 AM EDT
[#45]
Here is a guy that did it with a 9mm Glock. Looks like one of the long barrel ones. Glock 35 or 17L, I cannot tell which. Worked just fine with 3F and 2F both.
 BLACK POWDER Glock! 9mm, This shouldn't work. |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 4:27:40 AM EDT
[#46]
I have load data for BP 38Spcl. Messy, but works fine.
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Posted: 5/21/2022 5:24:51 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To use BP in place of SP is it a 1 to 1 ratio No, typically in a rifle with black powder you want a slightly compressed load Your older cartridges actually have how much black powder it uses right in the name 30-30 45-70 44-40 |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 5:56:14 AM EDT
[#48]
One time I had a misfire with my smoke pole. After waiting for a hang fire, and popping three more caps on it, I pulled down a 22lr and poured the powder down the nipple. Packed it in a bit with the nipple pick.
Sumbitch went bang that time. Would not recommend anyone do it for obvious reasons, but it worked. I was also shooting mild charges of black that day. Probably wouldn’t do that with a max charge. |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 6:26:05 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can safely shoot black powder 12ga shells out of a manual action modern shotgun I have seen a .45 acp 1911 run with black powder loads One of those survivalist gurus on YT had a video of him field loading a single shot 12. He punched out the old primer with a nail, cut the plastic shell off, popped the brass in the breach, then loaded it smokepole fashion. He used real BP. I thought about trying it, but douching the thing out after using real BP afterwards is a pain. Also saw a Hickok45 video where he loaded some .45 ACP using real BP, but it barely had enough juice to work the action of a 1911. |
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Posted: 5/21/2022 6:47:19 AM EDT
[#50]
Black powder is pretty dirty. I doubt it would take many rounds to brick a modern semi-auto.
Stick with break action or revolvers for this. There are even revolvers made to be used with BP! 
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