Hi all.

I have an opportunity to buy 10 acres at a good price to build a house on. Problem is that it is land locked. I asked the neighbor to discuss an easement and he said he would trade me an easement for 10 acres....yeah.

The tip of his land, about 15 acres, is right off a city street and  where I would need a driveway is where his is, just branch off to the left a little and right onto my land. Probably 150 feet extra of driveway. He would barely even notice a change to the living experience or anything on his driveway since it's a ways away from his house. Stupid simple, he just doesn't want anyone to build on the 10 acres behind him. I understand his mindset actually, just frustrating. Lol.

The other side of this 10 acres has an easement but no approved way to build a driveway. It's 27 acres and long. Met with the engineer today and he said it would cost $60k minimim to build a driveway. Besides that, we have a denial on a proposed driveway from 2012 that has multiple reasons; not enough line of sight, storm water design lacking, grade percent, etc... Basically no way of legally getting a driveway accross the 27 acres unless you have money to burn and pay off the city employees.

What are my options? This is great land to build on. I find it hard to believe that there is no legal way to get a driveway there to use it.

Thanks!

Move on.

The reason it is a good price is the struggle to obtain access, it is not worth it. If the State does not have a legal remedy for land locked property that is efficient and beyond contest you will spend more money gaining an easement than the property is worth AND have a neighbor who hates your fucking guts.

Move on.

Helicopter.


Like previously stated best to move on. There is still more land with less problems.

Buy.
Build.
Tunnel.

Walk away.

Interesting.

The reason it is cheap is because is it a family friend that inherited the land, is too old/settled to rebuild on it and wants to keep it in the family or with me, and close acquaintance. The land is cleared and currently being partially farmed and only need to clear a few woods for the driveway.

Another family member wants to build on another 10 acres that is landlocked and has the same easement issues.

Really no way around this huh?

We are discussing possibly offering to trade him two acres for one or something to work a deal.... not sure how to approach it and get him to open his mind.

If it's in use, how is it being accessed now?

There is a very old house at the bottom of the 27 acres with parking right beside it and a seperate access road the farmer uses. Neither are city approved and basically grandfathered since they were established so long ago. If anything happened to them and they needed rebuilt it would not get approved.

Also, I know the person on the 27 acres and he lets me drive to the 10 acre plots around the crop field. There is an easement through this land established but the driveway will not be approved for earlier mentioned reasons and besides those you could not fit a properly sloped/grade driveway within the easement boundaries.

Basically, if I bought the 10 acres, there is an easement that no possible driveway could be built on. I would only have foot access throught the easement to the 10 acres and that arguably makes the land useless.

You're not going to force access across someone else when access currently exists. A real estate attorney is what you need to secure permanent access using the existing road.

Sorry, I added details to my post after you responded. The existing easement is useless for vehicle access.

I guess to clarify, it is useless for new vehicle access and building permits will be denied due to improper or nonlegal driveway.

I am also guessing at all this. Lol.

What's needed is a right of way. Easements and right of ways are not the same thing.

Hmmm...A right of way would not allow me to put the necessary driveway through his land though correct? That driveway would already have to be established.....

The guy doesn’t want you there.  He isn’t going to make a fair trade to have you in his backyard and it sounds like your other options suck.

Look for something else.  Or start hog farming up there since you cannot get a new driveway.  . Oh get some chickens too.  A couple nice big roosters to guard your hens.




I can kind of relate.   The guy that owns the farm field next to me and alongside my driveway sold a chunk next to my driveway.  The buyer intends to build there in five years which sucks for me as it is right in my foreground of a beautiful Mountain View which they tax me the F on.  The seller, who recently inherited the farm, seemed to think I only had a ROW or Easement for my driveway.  He was selling this guy on the idea of making a circle driveway with part of my driveway.  I looked up my deed to be sure.  I own my driveway, deeded land, bought from the seller’s old man by the party that built my house.  

I have informed the seller that he is mistaken, my driveway is mine.  The sold lot doesn’t touch the town road.  They need about fifty yards more of the farm field to reach the end of the dead end road.  Better write in an easement across the farm for the buyer as I am not encumbering my deed.  I bet dollars to donuts that info didn’t get to the buyer.   They did their deal on a legal pad in the car.

It’s my problem, but it’s not my problem.  I like the buyer, nice guy, but his plans will decrease my home value which I will never get the assessor to concede and lower my taxes.  

And yes I tried to buy the whole field a couple times before but the seller isn’t there yet.  He is selling chunks to stay afloat.  He has a dream of building a house on the top of that field.  He I doubt will ever financially achieve that goal.  He also plans on using my driveway and building his access along my stone wall., T ing in to mine.


He also owns to the end end of the road so legally he needs nothing on me.

Lol.

Id go to court house and pull deeds for that property and properties surrounding it.

Don't rely on anyone,  seller or neighbor to know what's what.

Useless because it lacks improvements?

If you are guessing at any of this, that is your first step. Eliminate the guesswork. Hire a real estate attorney to pull the deeds and review them,  and then you'll need a surveyor is there is in fact an existing easement.

I know a guy who used an oil road tat went to a pumping unit on his property,  that crossed a neighbor (they were not friendly, all parties were assholes). One day after using the road for almost 30 years he came home to a fence across the road. It's a very long story, but $35k in lawyers later he lost and had to build another road to his house for another $35k.

Shit gets ugly and expensive fast, don't guess unless you can afford to guess

I have the drawings from the current owners last updated in 2012 and it is landlocked. I also have the denial letter from the city about the driveway (2012 also) and other original documents/deeds going back to like 1850.

My guess is the land was split before all the regulations and permits and parcels intended for kids but they never did anything with them. Access would not have been an issue back in the day.

I think the last owner wanted to build and that explains the updated 2012 documents but they passed away and the two sons now have the property. They don't want to do anything with it but they don't want to just sell it to anyone. Me and the son in law want to use it but need road access.

Find another spot. Could potentially end up being a nightmare

Dang, shitty turnout for him.

The current access road lacks improvements and city approval so building permits will get denied. We can and do use it to drive to the property though. It's basically the edge of a farm field.

He deserved every bit of it, he assumed he couldn't be denied access, because he assumed he couldn't, so he acted like an uppity prick. Neighbor was a bigger prick.

I'm going to return to my original post on this one, move on, it isn't worth it.

Unless you’re getting it for pennies on the dollar dealing with an easement is going to be a long term pain in the ass.

Every time you drive in he’s gonna get pissed. Any little thing that happens is going to be major problems.

Walk away

Attached File

If there already is an easement then stop pestering the other neighbor; building a driveway to the property using the current access easement is not his problem.

You said the driveway permit was denied but the reasons look like design flaws not problems with the easement.  So, what would it take to put in a properly designed driveway?  Does the easement have to be wider?  Or did the proposed driveway design not use the full width of the easement because the prior homeowner only had so much $$$ to spend?

The engineer looked at the driveway denial yesterday while at the property with us and said that the way the road is that it is not physically possible to meet the requirements of line of sight due to the 55mph speed limit. Also, if you could get the speed limit dropped to 45 or 35 you still would not be able to meet the requirements so it is basically impossible to get an approval for a driveway. He also had to topographic maps and said even if you could the excavation to meet the 12% grade requirement would be massive and unrealistic due to the length of cutting through 27 acres.

Interesting. I will look into that.

I am going to get the owner to pull the most recent parcel details to be sure of what is actually on file with the county. I spoke to him again this evening and he mentioned that it may not be an easement through the 27 acres and instead be a "right of way". That may change some of the legal arguments for a easement of necessity I believe...?

This, not worth the squeeze. Find somewhere else with an easement.

I understand this is possible and seems likely, however I am not ready to give up yet. I would like to get a solid answer from a lawyer about easement of necessity and also talk to the neighbor to reopen negotiations.

Any tips on negotiating a easement?

Not trying to be all GDish, but would you really want to live on a piece of property that starts out with a neighbor constantly pissed off ?

Might wanna watch "neighbors from hell" videos.

Unless that neighbor has some legal obligations to allow you thru their property, what benefit would it be for them ?

I might have missed it but how are ppl getting on the property now ?

Re-read the OP. You said his drive way right off city road. Most driveways/properties aren't owned touching the road  , meaning most has a set back or right of way along road way for utilities. Find our where his property actually ends close to the road. He may not own 20-30 feet of his driveway and you might legally be able to branch off without needing his permission in the first place.

Thanks for the follow up.

My goal is to make this work without pissing him off. I understand him not wanting someone to build there though.

I have called 4 lawyers with no return calls yet. If I can legally get across his land then he is prolly better off with me doing it than someone else as I am pretty reasonable in life.

That's a good point about the city road possibly already having an easement or right of way. I just have not been able to talk to someone who actually know what is possible, only speculators.

I am going to get the most updated plot details through the owner to know for sure what is legally documented with the county and go from there.

There is mention on some paperwork about the existing easement through the 27 acres being abolished when the two 10 acre lots were created. That doesn't make sense because I was told that an easement will always stay once established so it may actually be a right of way since it can be abolished..... again.... fuzzy details but makes sense.

Another avenue , check with your Dept of Highway and see if they have a "right of way" division. This will help you know where the properties actually end, I doubt its right at the road.

We have one here and I've dealt with them trying to get an old country road abandoned.

Here in Tennessee, once the land owner grants a right of way you can build whatever kind of road you want (dirt, gravel, paved, etc.) as long as it's on the right of way. It's up to you to maintain it though.

YMMV but pretty much all rural roads in my state the property is owned right to the middle of the road and there is a road & utility right of way. That doesn't entitle the neighbor to use the right of way, just the roadway utility (often the county highway dept) and the utilities. IE, I own the land underneath the county road right out to the center of the road on my road frontage.

Ok. So this should help out as you all bring up some good points.

Lot 1 is the neighbors lot
Lot 2 is the lot I want
Lot 3 is the son in law wants to build on (my friend and partner is getting this to work)

Above lot 1 is the incoming road I want to use to access my lot (#2 hopefully)
Below lot 3 is another road that is part of an HOA neighborhood and we have not even entertained getting access to the plots through there.
The yellow line is the supposed current driveway proposal that was denied by the city. It carries on to the left a little more. Unsure if that is an easement or right of way and my current understanding is those are different legally.

Looking at it like this, it seems to me that it makes the most sense easement and utility wise to get to lot 2 and 3 by using the closest roads....

Bumping for the day crew.

Appreciate the input.

Lot #2 was likely subdivided from the lot with the yellow line on it, which is why the access easement is there.

Owners of lots #1 and #3 can tell you to pound sand, and if you sue they will correctly point out that your access should be across the other lot, this is not their problem, and you purchased the lot knowing that it had an issue.   Your problem, not theirs, don't make it theirs.

How wide is the current easement?

Also consider having everything surveyed.   Property lines might not actually be where the different parties claim....

The current easement is not able to legally have a driveway installed so no building permits could be obtained. Couldn't a court say that I need other "reasonable" access and grant me a easement of necessity around the edge of his property to get to the corner of lot #2?

Everything was surveyed when the lots were split in 2012. I am waiting to find out the actual on file drawing with the township.

What makes sense to you and what is legally appropriate are 2 very different things. As already pointed out, it's not anybody else's problem. They can tell you to go pound sand and that's exactly what you have to do... your best chances are to buy it and befriend the neighbor you want an easement on, or buy it, wait for him to sell or die, buy his place, grant yourself an easement, then sell his place. You're very likely going to have to play the long-game on this one if you're that attached to THIS plot of land.


That being said, your picture is only marginally helpful without showing more of the roads and neighboring properties, why did you cut them out? Can you provide a picture with the roads shown and possibly a scale for size reference?

From what I can see of the picture it's obvious why the neighbor doesn't want to grant an easement, the road in the blue circle at the top comes near his property somewhat centered, to continue that across his property to yours will dissect his property or will consume a significant perimeter of his property. I would tell you to pound sand too. I wouldn't trade even-up acreage either, if your driveway uses up 1 acre of my land I'm going to want at least 3 acres of yours in return for all the hassle. I don't have to do anything, I can just enjoy my life as-is, I need an incentive to want to deal with you.

The only other thing I can think of is to threaten that if you can't get a driveway back in there to build you're going to have to buy up more land to get an easement and that's going to force you to do something like a subdivision to recoup your expenses. Neighbor probably likes his privacy so isn't too excited to help you out, but a subdivision would ruin that. If you play your cards right he may not know you're bluffing. Who owns the property the current easement/ROR crosses?

Thank you for your feedback.

Lot 1 is 13 acres, Lot 2 is about 10 acres, and lot 3 is 10 acres. The large lot to the left with the yellow easement is about 26 acres. There are no other roads near and all other plots have houses on them. There are only two roads that make sense and those are in blue. The other road that is near the bottom of the yellow line that represents the current easement (possible actually a right of way) is the road that a drive way will not be approved for. I kept the info small and detailed as to not reveal to much information about someplace I am hoping to live.

Lot 2, lot 3 and the 26 acres are all owned by the same family friend that I am trying to buy lot 2 from and my friend is trying to buy lot 3 from. The 26 acre lot is going to stay his for now.

I understand that it will cut across his property and I understand that he doesn't want people living near him, he built there so that he could be alone. But he also built against a 47 acre lot and had to know that something was going to come of it. I understand him telling me to pound sand. I have tried to talk with him. He said he wants 10 acres or nothing. He wont even meet with me to discuss trading some land. I am willing to widen his whole lot line by 5 acres if he will cut off the tip near the road which is about 1 acre to get a driveway. Of course, I was going to start low like just an easement around the property line that would basically be non intrusive in exchange for 2 acres. A pretty good deal.

I texted him again today asking to meet and negotiate and he said that I know what he wants and if I'm not willing than to forget it. Again, I understand he is in the position of power, but I am extending the offer to meet and negotiate. He said that the land is worth $25k since it is landlocked and that the cost of me to get a drive way up through the other direction will easily cost double that so I am getting a deal by giving him 10 acres for an easement. He doesn't know that a driveway has already been denied by the city. Also, if I were to give him the 10 acres, he could immediately put an easement to it and it be worth minimum $150k because of the unobstructed mountain view.

What I do not understand is how a "easement of necessity" could not apply to this situation. It seems to be specifically for landlocked properties like this; properties that are divided off of large plots and need legal access. Again, I am not a lawyer and have not been able to talk to one yet, but it seems to me that the requirements for a landlocked property are pretty simple. The affected person has to show that no other "reasonable" means of access to the property are possible for the court to grant an easement of necessity across another's land. I have no other "reasonable" means of making that land usable. I cannot legally get a driveway up the current easement (possible not an easement, may be only a right of way) and the neighbor has literally said that in order to make the land usable for myself via an easement with him I have to give him the whole 10 acre plot which is impossible because then the land is not usable for me, it is his and usable for him.

What I cannot figure out is the technicalities of a easement of necessity and how that may make it not applicable to my situation. Again, I am not a lawyer, I have done a bunch of google searches and reading. I read about the Private Road Act of 1836 and how it was ruled unconstitutional in 2013 by a PA common court and I do not understand how that is different from a easement of necessity. It is like most other legal stuff, you can read multiple reputable opinions about how they work or don't work and how they are legal or not legal. lol. Pretty frustrating.

One thought is that since these lots were broke off around 2012 that the initiator intended to access them via the Private Road Act....? Might be unfortunate.

I don’t think a court will give you a second row or easement.  You have one even if it unworkable.  You can reach your land you just can’t get cars in or out.  

Not a lawyer, but you seem intent on making this problem yours.

I get that and also see it as a sensible thought process but my understanding is that the current easement does not allow the land to be "usable".

I am not intent on making this problem mine. I am intent on figuring out if this is legally possible so I can have a nice property to build a house on before I give up easily just for someone else to figure out it is legally possible to build a house on and enjoy it.  I have tried to negotiate with him and he wants to be an ass so I am not going to just give up on it.

How does the family friend access the 26 acres? Is there an existing driveway/entrance?



Yes, he likely knew something may eventually happen with it, but he also knew that access to it wouldn't be his responsibility and he still knows that. It's no different anywhere else. I'm very secluded, but at any moment any of the neighboring properties could become subdivisions; I will do everything possible to stop that from happening. But I realize I'm limited on what I can do. My only realistic option is to buy the neighbor's land before he subdivides it and sells to a builder...


Sounds to me like he knows the situation very well. He knows the land is unbuildable without him giving something up. He's not going to roll over for you.

Best options are to figure out a way to get access from the other side, give up, or wait for him to die. There's always a chance you can force an easement but I don't know the legalities and you're certainly going to incur some big legal expenses. There is NO cheap way about this.

There is a old driveway and a farm access road right near the end of the yellow easement line. They are extremely old and completely unapproved. Basically even if some were to build a house on the road frontage at at the tip of the 26 acres they couldn't have a driveway because it would not get approved for the same reasons our driveway was denied.

It really just baffles me how there are two 10 acre lots that are unusable.

They city agreed to subdivide and create two residential lots that have no legal access? Doesn't make sense to me.

They had legal access at the time the properties were subdivided and the easements were created.  The current owners back then didn't immediately proceed with building driveways, which is now their problem not yours.

Also you don't own the property so the neighbor has zero need to talk to you; you're just a prospective purchaser not the actual owner.  If you really think this is legally feasible then you will need to buy the property first, otherwise you have no standing or even right to start the conversation.

Your only option is to purchase the property and then sue the neighbor for the easement you want.  If you fail you have unbuildable and unsellable property.

I understand the legal access was there when the lots were divided but my uncertainty is on the technicalities. I was able to see new drawings this morning, not the most recent (still working on getting those), but drawings from 2012. First, it is a 50ft "right of way" along the property edge which is different than a "easement" to my understanding.  Second, I notice that lots 2 and 3 are actually labeled as "parcels" which seems to have a different legal meaning from "lot". Parcels are meant for tax purposes and lots for zoning...? Not understanding that one right now.

I am assuming there was a presumption by the city and the owners at the time that a driveway would be able to be built on that right of way and be shared. Turns out the city denied the later proposed driveway and it is supposedly impossible to get a driveway approved due to line of sight, drainage, etc. That now makes the land not legally accessible, "reasonably" accessible or usable correct? Basically every time we enter the land we are using a unapproved driveway that already exists but is grandfathered for the current dwelling at the bottom of the hill or having to trespass on others land (we do not do this, just an example).

Also, I understand he is of no obligation to talk to me since I do not own the land. I have not tried to force anything upon him. I have instead only conveyed intent to negotiate and he has conveyed intent on making that land only usable to him. Again, this has eliminated another "reasonable" means of making the land usable. Part of wanting to negotiate before I bought the land was to include the necessary work, fees, etc. that stem from any agreement between us to be included in the sale of the property. That way it is done faster and more efficient for both of us; all in one shot.

It baffles me how a lot can be approved by the city as a new residential lot (the parcel/lot discrepancy mentioned earlier still stands and needs clarification), approve it for sale, approve it for purchase, then turn around and say O' you have no legal way of getting to your land without trespassing or using a unapproved path on a right of way that is dangerous for pedestrians and motorists on the road...? Doesn't add up.

Buying it so I can have legal power does make sense and has been discussed, but seems like there might be some technicalities in that if I bought landlocked property with the purpose to sue... seems like the current owner or person who split the land would need to do that... but why wasn't that issue addressed during the split up by the county...? Maybe because the didn't know a driveway would be denied.. seems like something to basic to not be included...? again, doesn't add up.

Something seems off and I wonder if the family "friend" knows something he is not disclosing hoping we buy the lots and chase this thing....

It all just doesn't make sense and I don't understand how a situation like this comes about.

It is just getting really frustrating that I cannot find anyone who knows for sure what the hell is possible here and no lawyers called me back this week.

It may boil down to us needing to buy all of the land, rezone it and give him 10 acres, I just want to know for sure that is the only path. Not keep speculating over a beer what is possible and makes sense because in legal stuff like this terms and verbiage matter; such as lot/parcel and right of way/easement.

The bottom line is he knows the situation is and he is under no obligation to help you out.  He doesn’t want anyone back there.  You know how much you want that land?  Guess what, he wants you (or anyone else) to NOT have it just as bad.   He’s in a great situation and you want him to simply give that up?  Why would he want two of “your” acres for one of his?  He basically has all 10 of those acres now.  

You want it, pony up and buy his place, or come up with a big chunk of cash so large he’s willing to sell you access.  If it were me, There wouldn’t be a number large enough that a sane person would pay.  Bother the guy enough and he might just buy it himself.

What are you going to sue the guy for if you buy the land behind him?  You have no standing or even a cause of action that I can think of.  You bought land you knew you couldn’t access.  Would be kinda funny if you lost and had to pay his legal fees.

Again, I understand his position and don't blame him, but I do think he is being unreasonable. Jumping to giving the whole lot up for an easement is extreme, why not just half or something? Or be a man and say no instead of being a pussy and saying no without saying "no".

I am trying to find out if the current land owner or I have standing to get a legal "reasonable" easement to the land. Why would the city just allow properties to be broken off and landlocked willy nilly. It doesn't make sense. Maybe it just doesn't make sense to me because there is benefit of it I am not aware of. I am trying to find out though.

Sometimes stuff might just be worth walking away from, and this could be one of them. I just want to fully understand everything first. It seems likely that the people who split the land screwed this up which is unfortunate.

You're not going to like this but the vast majority of people are likely to say he's being completely reasonable and you're the one being unreasonable. I'm not saying that as a jab at you or anything, just giving you the view from the other side of the fence. He is under no obligation to accept the crappy situation someone else made or inconvenience himself or change his life to improve the situation for someone else. He worked hard to buy his land and he likes it just the way it is. The sooner you accept this the better off you will be.


So FPNI? Seriously, many have already told you this. If this land us so great without any "gotchas" it wouldn't be cheap, even if it IS from a family member or family friend.




Does the ROR in yellow align with the existing farm drive at all? That could give you a little better legal standing to improve the driveway to reach more of the property.

IANAL, but you may be able to put an unimproved drive in and give it some time and point out that the drive is existing and they don't find record if the denied drive. It's a big gamble, one with high stakes, but it's what I would do. But then again, I don't live under a draconian government that tells me that I can or cannot build or even create a driveway.