We have discussed GA (in multiple threads) and now helicopter flight in challenging conditions.

So what about commercial?  The pilots have the ultimate get-there-itis (dispatch, flow times, flight schedules, 100-200 passengers some of whom need to make connecting flights).

How do you commercial pilots factor all of that in with the go/no go decision?  Or is that largely driven by dispatch?

I have watched the crosswind landing and go-around videos on YouTube.  I have heard commercial pilots go-around at Madison and even divert.  I have seen the holds for thunderstorms and snow removal.

Is the average commercial pilot simply absolutely proficient to shoot a mins IFR approach in gusty crosswinds such that most bad weather days are within limits?  I thought I read recently in a thread that a lot of pilots can go a long time between hand flown approaches and landings.

Or is there a lot of pressure to fly and a nervous FO and cautiously confident captain ready to take to the sky?

It just seems that for the most part commercial aviation is pretty reliable.  Your jets have high gust factors, solid FIKI, two plus jet engines, etc.

But from a human perspective what is it like as a new captain to strap in with a new FO on what is going to be a challenging flight.  Knowing that you are going to fly it.

Is there some stress and anxiety involved with that?  Or is it just another day on the job?  (I can't imagine that any day in the air is just like the other.)

And I don't know the point at which you say "no" or the career repercussions.  Talk about get-there-itis....

Maybe those big jets are just so capable that those conditions are not a factor?

Thanks for the thread. Now I’m stuck in a wormhole watching landing videos
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If you are within limits, you go flying.  The rest is up to things like ATC putting out a ground stop, or delay for traffic, weather, closed airport, etc.

Often a new captain will be flying with a very experienced FO.  I've flown with new captains who had basically zero time on the plane (except for IOE), when I had over 8000 hours on it as a FO.  I've also flown with new captains who spent almost their entire FO career flying international, and were not familiar with many of the domestic airports.  Of course, it works the other way around too.

Nowadays (and back when I got hired) you could end up with a new captain and a new FO.  Experience is important, but  they are all trained to the same standard, and should be fine.

Basically, Yes.   You shouldn’t be there if you aren’t proficient.

The Cpt and Dispatcher have to agree, but if everything’s legal and within limits, you’re pretty much going.  
If the weather changes for the worse enroute, then you divert.

If an approach or landing gets ugly, you go around.
It’s challenging.  Big airplanes are harder to fly than small ones.  The inertia and the spool up time, means you can’t count on a last minute burst of power to save a landing.
People usually handfly the approaches.

Handflying skills differ, but good flying is largely a mental, pre-planning game.   Most are very good at it.  You can’t afford not to be.  
The funny thing about airline flying, is that it’s usually with people you’ve never before.    It’s a testament to the mutual professionalism, that it works so well.

One could always call in sick with little, or no repercussions, (why we have unions)  but that hardly ever happens.
Its not as stressful as being a gate agent, but if you have multiple complications on multiple legs, at high intensity airports, it can wear you down.

Yep as said above, if it’s legal for the approach and within aircraft and company limits then you’re going. We have exemptions allowing us to depart if we have an additional alternate and the wx at alternate is above higher minimums.

Enroute wx such as large thunder storms, captain and dispatcher must agree on the flight plan to navigate around it.

Always check wx and notams at your alternates as well. I had one recently for an international flight that when I checked, the alternate was not legal and the dispatcher missed it.

I spoke with one of our F-4 pilots who is also a SW captain, yesterday. We had crappy weather all over Texas last week. He told me that he had to shoot a CAT 3 into Hobby, turn around and fly a CAT 2 into Austin and then he had to fight company minimums into Lubbock ! All in a days work !

Thanks for the responses. Glad to hear there is such widespread proficiency throughout the industry.  And it probably helps tremendously having a second pilot to help spread out the workload.

No, the point is by the time you get there, you have the experience and training to make these operations safe and routine.

Capability helps...TCAS, EGPWS, very reliable and powerful engines, better simulators, etc. are all awesome and have proven safety benefits.

But that's all hardware that needs to be multiplied against human software. For now, our human software is very, very good for the most part.

I've been in the corporate/135 world my entire career (23 years same company) and I have always thought that the 121 pilots have it easy with regards to get-there-itis.

It seems that having proper dispatchers, backup aircraft and crews, maintenance available anywhere, as well as unions and perhaps corporate on ones side, it would be easier to go to plan B.

More than once, I have wished that I could just swap an aircraft with a problem while a boss taps his foot with his arms crossed. To him, it's "somebodies" fault that something broke.

Speaking as a non-commercial Instrument rated airplane driver I can tell you that just because you CAN make the flight doesn't mean you SHOULD take the flight. When I flew I started watching the weather along my route DAYS ahead of time. It, to me, was mandatory rather than just calling flight watch for a briefing and then blasting off. Over 3000 hours in SEL many of which were on instrument flight plans. "SOFT" weather never bothered me but when you get into spring time in Texas and start crossing fronts you better have your A game on.

Having done more than little of both, I'd say its a hard comparison to make.

I've seen many 91/135 operators that do a terrible job of owner education, which creates problems down the road.

A year ago, I was flying United through O'hare and lots of delays, not a great recipe for success. They got me on a flight that got delayed on the previous leg and getting this one out at all seemed almost accidental. Our FO timed out so we were waiting for a fresh one. I was sitting in the front row of the CRJ watching the Capt getting the cockpit ready for about 40 minutes prior to FO boarding. It was obvious they had never met let alone ever worked together. As soon as he sat down, it was like finely polished gears meshing. Both of them working through the check list like they sat next to each other for years. I've been in general aviation, fixed wing and helicopter maintenance, since I was 15 years of age (45 years ago) and know a lot of pilots but not flight crews. I wished I could continue watching, but they shut the door. I was quite impressed, especially in spite of what is said about United.

Working at an FBO for 4 years cured me of wanting to fly 91/135 for a career.

As was said above, generally  if it's legal weather, we will be going.  However, there are some different limitations that are there to enhance safety.

There are crew pairing requirements.  Most of the time, one of the pilots has to have at least 75 hours in their seat, in that make and model of airplane.  So you wouldn't see a brand new captain, and a band new first officer flying together.  Only when an airline introduces a brand new airplane type, and everyone is new to the type, will the FAA issue a waiver for that.

A new captain is "restricted" or "high minimums" for their first 100 hours of revenue flying.  So they have to use higher approach minimums (as always, some exceptions apply here, with proper ops specs and auto land or a HUD to touchdown).

When the first officer has less than 100 hours in type, they cant land in a crosswind over 15 knots, or when the visibility is less than 3/4 mile or 4000 RVR, when the runway is contaminated, special qualification airports, etc.

We also reduce our crosswind limits when the visibility is low, the runway is wet/contaminated, braking action is compromised, or the runway is less than 150' wide.

Even with all that, I've spent plenty of nights in a hotel, when I was supposed to be in my own bed.  Sometimes you have to say no, we're not going until it gets better.  I've never gotten any pushback from management, as long as I could back up my decision with something reasonable, and not just "I don't want to".  As the captain, I cant cancel a flight, that decision is made way above my pay grade, but I can defer the flight until I feel the conditions are safe and reasonable.

Thats the beauty of SOP's.  I can sit down next to a first officer I've never met before, and we both know how the other pilot is going to do things.

There is a quality spread of 91/91k operations. One could certainly do worse than EJA for a career. Certain corporate operators are just truly outstanding.

The vast majority of 135 operations live on razor thin margins in a highly competitive environment, not just with each other but the 134.5 and 91.135 operations that do exist.

Landing on a blue-ice glacier looks like fun.

Very true.  I've worked for 91 and 135 places that make me cringe, knowing what I know now vs my younger "naive" self.  I'm fortunate to be in a 91 department that has both a great SMS and Standards program, with well-defined SOPs.

There are countless stories of professional pilots who didn’t say no when they should have, 91/121/135 all, and body counts because of it. The PIC has all authority to manage the flight as best as they see fit, and may have a ton of pressure to overcome. No boss, passenger, dispatcher etc. can force you to make a bad decision, though they try! In my years in this crazy business I’ve found there are pilots who can do that, and pilots that can’t. You have to be able to say no, knowing that doing so may cost you your job. Not doing so at times may cost lives. For what it’s worth I’ve been fired for saying no at my very first jet job. Having gone through that experience, it’s probably one of the best things that’s happened in my flying career. Be a pilot who can make the right call in spite of all the pressure. The spineless types have no business in a cockpit.

Thanks for your reply.  This has been a very interesting thread and I'm glad that I asked the question.

I don't think a pilot can base his or her decisions on sayings.  But a couple have struck me.  One being "A pilot's most important job is to say 'no we can't do that.'"

I'd add crosswinds are also easier in a transport category aircraft.   Aside from having a good bit of rudder authority, the higher approach speeds mean higher crosswind capability (generally).   Doing the vector math, for example, a 40kt crosswind in a  is about the same as a 20kt crosswind in a 172 when your Vref is 140 instead of 70.  Technique differs though due to ground clearance requirements from engines or wingtips (looking at you, CRJ200).

I was once at the FBO at MCO and waiting to use the phone (it was before everyone had a cell), and the pilot of a 737 was explaining to his dispatcher why he couldn't get into MLB and had to divert to MCO where they didn't have gate  privlives and were ate the FBO where they handled charters on the West side of the airport. The 1st officer was standing at the counter beside me and we were both listening to the captain getting grief and I said I had just tried 3 timed to get into MLB and even broke minimums a little and could never see the runway light. He asked me if I would be willing to tell that to the dispatcher on the phone! I said sure.He whispered in the pilot's ear and then the pilot said something to the dispatcher and handed me the phone. I told him I had just tried in a prop twin several times and even cheated on minimums and couldn't get in, he said thanks , got back on with his 737 captain and let him off the hook!. He believed some low time commercial pilot he didn't know more than his own ATP!
I've been on commercial flights that had to divert too, or had to wait for weather before departing. Plus most big airports have runways that can be used if the wind is strong out of another direction so they don't have to land with a 90 deg crosswind iftha's the issue. RWY 4 instead of RWY 11 for instance.

My first 91/135 job was with a slime ball operator. When I had a whopping 1200 hours the owner told me to fly a plane I considered to be unsafe or find a new job. You should have seen the look on his face when I came back from lunch with a large plastic bin and collected my stuff.

From that point on I have been either lucky, or very good, at picking employers. The two 135s and the 91 outfit I’ve worked for have backed my play each and every time.

With my current outfit I’m in a strange position of not having to worry about passengers but have to consider the unique limitations of the aircraft since our configurations usually prohibit us from flying in ice, near storms and all approaches must be hand flown.

Forecasting weather has become far more important than “can we legally shoot the approach”. If we don’t have the weather to do the work, we don’t take off.

My company, our prime and our customer are all on the same page. The one time someone up the chain complained I had a whole host of people in my corner who supported my decision.

That and the fact that our land gear are certified to be able to touch down in max crosswind conditions without any rudder correction. I've never actually seen anyone land in a full, uncorrected crab other than the test pilots doing proving runs. But I suppose if one were to just say "fuck it, I'm not up for using rudder today" then you really don't have to. So goonga-galoonga, we've got that goin' for us.

Saying no has never been a problem for me.

The short time I worked for a 135 check hauler, I said no twice and on the second time, I was fired.

Since the plane and me were in Atlanta (PDK), I asked the genius who fired me how he was gonna get his plane home since there was no one there to bring it home.

He said I was going to fly it home after the wx cleared.

He was wrong.

I hitched a ride to ATL, got on a Delta flight and came home and went to the office to tell him to get fucked up close and personal.

I dunno if he ever got that fucking Cherokee-6 back.

Classic!  

We're paid to say no when everyone else is telling us go.

Yes I know, but that being said you all manage to do a great job in minimum and extremely gusty days!  The proficiency across the board seems to be outstanding.

And I too am impressed with the SOP's that two pilots who never met each other and could have a 20 year age difference can sit down together and flow right into flying the airplane.

A former boss looked at a passenger once and said: “Do you really want to be flying on a plane your pilots don’t want to fly?”

During training I’m Alaska for my first “real” job I asked my CP about the winds and he said:
“The airplane doesn’t know it’s windy, only the pilot does.”

It’s funny the way we keep little nuggets with us as we progress.

Yes I know that "nugget."  But the airplane doesn't know that the wind is not aligned with the runway, gusty, and bumpy.  That's for the pilot to worry about.  

Thanks to all you commercial pilots. While inconvenienced several times, I’ve never bitched about delays or cancelations. I appreciate professionals putting safety first. Mechanical, weather, pilot hours, whatever. It is a lot of responsibilities and very complex timing and dependencies. Appreciate your experience and discipline!

I worked at a business jet FBO and nobody ever had a problem with the pilots’ decision. Not passengers, boss man (who is also one of the pilots) or anyone. Follow the rules and make a judgement and that is it. A coffin is the slowest way home.

Yup. It cost a lot of lives in lessons learned to get to where we are today with standardization and proficiency.

I fly 135 private charters,  I have no problem telling passengers we aren't  going. I'll offer other options, but no passenger is going to push me into something that I feel is unsafe.

Got fired twice early in my career for refusing to fly illegal/unsafe ops, both weather related. In the long run it was good for me because I didn’t die or get violated by the feds. Either of which would’ve ended my career. Just a bummer not having a paycheck for awhile. The last outfit I worked for got told no on a number of occasions. Must not of hurt their feelings too much cause they keep sending me a retirement check.

Stories like this and the others posted above are what I love to hear about if I interview a pilot. I would take a pilot who's been fired for having the stones to make the right calls regardless of consequences, over everyone else. Every time. When I look over a resume and see a short term job, I view that favorably and look forward to the story, though most interviewers would probably see a short term job as a huge negative and pass on the pilot without digging any further.

Flying out to a small island in the Bahamas. Not a cloud in the sky except the one over that island. 40 miles out it opens up and by the time we get there the runway looks like a mirror. Ungrooved, contaminated, standing water. We can't make the numbers so back to West Palm Beach. I can relay that the passengers were not very happy. Sunshine and beautiful turquoise water was all they saw.