Not gonna lie I chose the worst last few classes to take as part of my bachelors program. Not sure why chemistry is a part of the curriculum but it is and I have been getting punched in the dick for the last 4 weeks. I do not envy any of you who are chemistry majors. I also realized just like my python scripting class I have no friends that are proficient in this area..

That's why you bang out Calculus 101/102, Physics 101/102 and Chemistry 101/102 in your Freshman year if your major is anything in STEM. Cry once.  

Good luck!  

Daughter graduated last year with a degree in Biochemistry.  She loves that shit.

Maniac son #1 decided that since he got AP credit for basic chemistry, that he'd take Orgo Chemistry a year early.  

Need to pick your demons and pad your schedule with easy classes around them.

Taking a programming class, Physics, and foreign language in the same quarter was killing me... Dropped the foreign language class and everything else was good to go because I could devote enough time to each subject as needed.

Was kinda sad to drop that class as Michael Gross was in it and I could make small talk practicing my meager language skills.

How’s that working out for him

Good luck to him……..

I'll take, "Classes I can take pass/fail for $500, Alex!"

Chemistry and math major in college.

Decided that didn't kick my ass hard enough so I went to grad school in chem E. Entire math classes were just random combinations of Greek letters (looking at you chemical process modeling). Half the difficulty with the problems was figuring out if you actually had the answer or if there were more steps to simplify the 87 character answer.

Also, fuck LaPlace.


Now I do intellectual property related mostly to electrochemistry and its what I'm most interested in so I'm happy.

I freaking love chemistry though. I just love how straightforward it is. If you mix a with b it will always yield c. Not like biology where shit just randomly dies or your rat you've been studying contracts a random virus and shits it intestines out and screws up a months worth of work.

You can literally go in the lab, mix up a new chemical, write a paper on it, and get published or patents. Pretty fascinating if you ask me.

Freshman Chem or organic chem?

Imagine chemistry being your worst subject and the Navy making it your job ( typical mil thinking )

I got a lot better at it, but I never did like it

Im just taking fundamentals of CHM with a Lab. I have never done Chemistry before and this isnt fun at all.

Same here, except stayed in chemistry for grad school. I never used mathematics higher than arithmetic ever again. Don’t remember shit.

Man, this spikes some serious memories of undergrad.  

A huge lecture auditorium of a year of general chemistry and some attrition and a bunch of people realizing they were not going to be getting As.
A huge lecture auditorium of a year of organic and a lot more attrition of people realizing they were not going to pass and be doctors, veterinarians, etc.
While crushing it.
I was using my GI Bill and from the socioeconomically challenged rural portion of life.  
and the schadenfreude of seeing some of the socially and financially elite getting crushed was a not guilty pleasure.
I really liked college.


To this day I can remember the midterm and final exams of my most brutal undergrad course.

Maybe it’s not the most brutal to everyone depending on when and where they took it.

I actually thought it was a cool course  and actually enjoyed putting the first few years of general and organic chemistry together with Calc and physics in ways that could apply to research, engineering, construction, materials science, etc.

It’s just that when your professor is a brutal old Swiss German emeritus status type  resentfully relegated to teaching a few courses a semester for his paycheck, his days of research, department chief, stays, etc. all past,
And always kind of hated weak sissy little American undergrads anyway,

PCHEM was a brutal course.

I went into college with one major related to health and sciences,
Had a love of a life science I considered getting a doctorate in, discovered a world of other fields in the life sciences that would be cool to research, learn, and get a doctorate in.
Discovered a whole new world that was fascinating in undergrad in physical sciences - a Ph.D. And work in the field of Physical Chemistry or Materials Science would have been cool, but there would have been cool stuff in Chemical Physics and Chemical Engineering  as well.
But I also soaked up lit, history, classics, Psyc, etc.
I ended up with a B.A. in Biology/Chemistry, and met or near met minors in Math, Physics, English, Classics, and A&P with 150 semester hours instead of 120 when I graduated.
And the combination of future jobs, finances, etc. lead to ending up a different Doctorate and other adventures.


I was also a not ugly, not unfit young man.  And the era kicked ass compared to now in many ways.

If you had a time machine that could take you back to your yourself - I have to admit-

Being on a college campus over and over again around the 1985 to 1995 timeframe, doing different undergrad majors and Ph.D.s on a campus full of young, healthy women finding themselves, escaping their boundaries of adolescence to adulthood,  partying, etc. again and again as a young man would be awesome.

Think about it.
You already have undergrad and graduate knowledge in other fields.  Have a future knowledge of the world’s bio, engineering, medicine, tech, etc.
Academically you’re going to cruise in cheat mode.
And you are in your young studly self with decades of knowledge and understanding of women.
Sexually you’re going to be living in God mode.

I think your experience of college chemistry would have a lot to do with where you took it. I’m surprised that anyone would really have many problems with Gen Chem, which is mostly high school chemistry review (as one now world famous organometallic chemist put it, “what the fuck is a general chemist?”).

Organic chemistry is a completely different matter….I’ve always considered it a form of engineering rather than science, so I could see why undergrads in a pre-med mindset might have issues with it.

There are basically two kinds of subjects.

Those that don’t take anything more than average intelligence to learn, say History, basic Biology, fundamentals of General Chemistry, English, Psychology, etc.
And those that take beyond average intelligence to “get.”  Say organic, physics, math beyond basic arithmetic, statistics, algebra, geometry, and trig, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, being brilliant helps learn the basic stuff faster, recall it better, make associations, etc. but when all is said and done it’s like grasping some basic concepts and memorizing a list.
But the learner does not have to be brilliant to “get it.”

It’s not just pre-med that takes organic.  Chemistry majors, biology majors, bio chem, etc. all take it.  Traditionally, they all took the same year of Organic.  And as noted, lots of young men and women that planned on being MDs, veterinarians, biology majors, etc. found themselves on a different path because of it.  More recently, as part of the democratization of higher education, some colleges have split the year of organic into a set of courses for pre-professional and biology major types,- of a softer, gentler nature,  and kept the real year of organic for just Chem, bio chem majors. (This is totally different than the basic “semester of general Chem” “semester of organic chem” say a basic health science or ag sciences would have, it’s a deliberate and planned means to allow success for those too stupid to pass the classic organic year.)

Why?

When you look at the more traditional requirements and difficulty of higher education in America, say 1940- about 5% of the population had a four year degree or higher. (A little over 5% of men, a little under 4% of women.)
The average intellectual capability was 1.8 sd above the mean.  A little higher and closer to 2sd if you looked at just the classic, liberal arts type colleges/universities. Slighter lower if you were to look at ag/life sciences types and teacher colleges.  But essentially NONE were less than 1sd above the mean.  College degrees were essentially distributed among the intellectually top 15% of the population, with an average ability at round the 8% smartest.  With only 5% with a degree, a lot of smart people did not have one.  Interestingly, showing even further concentration, about 10-15 % of the graduates had an IQ 2.5 sd above the mean.  Only 0.5% of the population is that bright.  

There were about 130 million Americans in 1940.
6.5 million with degrees.
Essentially all 1sd above the mean bright, averaging 1.5+ sd above the mean,
650,000 of them 2.5 or more above.
We were heavily focused on the bright, and doing a pretty good job educating them.




In 1980, about 20% of men and 14% of women had a degree.  About 17% total.
Out of 230 million Americans.
The average college graduate was about 1.5 sd above the mean.  There were plenty of graduates below 1sd above the mean, about 15% of them.  Some even 0.25 sd below the mean.  Only 5% were 2.5sd above the mean.
Basically, only 85% of college graduates in 1980 were of the same quality as 1940.

Currently, about 36% of mean and 38% of women have a degree.  Using data about five or so years old, college graduates are down to an average intellectual capability 1sd above the mean.  With many 0.5 sd below the mean.  Less than  60% are at or above the minimum from 1940.  Less than 1% are 2.5sd or above.

40% of our college graduates now are dumber than the minimum were  in 1940.
And undergraduate, graduate, and professional education regimens reflect significant changes due to this.

Ive just never taken a chemistry course, I took more earth science and biology when I went through high school. and when I was attending these courses I was still in the I don't care about this shit phase. Let just say myself and my professor are putting in an inordinate amount of work to ensure I pass. I am 6 weeks into this 8 week course and I am still maintaining a GPA in the 90's so I am only complaining because I want to be lazy.

The thing that upsets me the most mainly about having to take this course is I will literally never use this shit again. I have been doing GIS for over 10 years never needed chemistry once. Im sure there are the one off times that you will need chemistry or physics to explain some shit but it is really few and far between..

that Fourier guy is a dickhead too. LOL

Newton and Leibinitz were shitbags too.  DaVinci could grind your gears also....  but EVERYONE loves him...

The only cool one was Archimedes, he even is credited with saying "EUREKA"

The absolute most basic understanding of how the world works comes from about a year of the same Bio a Bio major takes, the year year of general Chem and year of Organic Chem a Chem major takes, a year of Calc, and a year of Physics with Calc.

Keep toughing it out.

I am stoked that I have 7 days left in the course, then I will head into Christmas break period for school, and I will be taking leave from roughly Christmas till the 5th this is gonna be great. Crazy thing about this class is Chemistry felt exponentially harder than Physics was when I took that class.


I just submitted my last assignment for Chemistry, lets fuckin goooo guy!!

I just finished up my first semester of Chemistry and Precalc. Going back to school part time later in life to (hopefully) get an engineering degree.

I thought the math would be challenging since it has been near 20 years since I was exposed to any, but surprisingly it was the chemistry class that was more challenging. Granted math was only precalc, but still surprising. Next semester i have chemistry again, then onto Calculus after that for a few semesters.

I’m only able to take 1 class a semester with working full time, family, kids and our side business. Based on some other friends who went through engineering programs, I’m saving physics for after I complete the calc courses. They are designed to be corequisite, but I was told if you have completed calculus entirely it will make calc based physics that much more intuitive. Also will help that I’m not taking 1 semester breaks between calc courses since I won’t be flip flopping.

Long shot for me to even go to college decades ago. Mom had cancer and passed two weeks after I graduated HS. I had the grades and smarts to go but was unable to finish due to Dads' financial picture. The hospital bills broke him in more ways than one.

I made it through my Junior year and having to work basically full time I had to make a decision. Eat or graduate. I chose to eat. My experience making an "A" in PCHEM was life changing literally for me. It showed me that I could do anything I wanted. It was a brutal class and I watched the "really smart" guys bitching and pulling their hair out. Later on I had started my business and due to my education I was able to retire at 50 and live happily ever after. In a HUGE way NOT graduating was a blessing. Had I graduated I would have gone on to some unrewarding career in food science or shoe polish manufacturing.

Now I get to be my wifes' in home SME about all things organic in her HUGE kitchen and be the beneficiary thereof. Life is good. BTW,,My son came to visit for Xmas and brought his new thermal stuff. I looked through it and immediately started into an uncontrollable fit of laughter. Thank God for PCHEM and it's humble help.

Damn straight.

Life sciences majors, pre-meds, etc. bitch about organic.  Chemistry, physics, and chemical engineering majors bitch about P-Chem.

When the pre-requisites for a course are a year of general chemistry with lab,  year of organic chemistry with lab, real year of calc, year of physics with Calc-and everyone that got A’s in those thinks it has brutal test-
You are really in college.

@usmc_delaware I'm in a similar boat as far as being an older engineering student. Currently a senior at 34.

The crazy thing that I've noticed in my experience as a senior ME student, is that unless you're getting your masters, the classes that use a pre or coreq of a calculus or differential equations, doesn't actually use much or any of it. For example, my physics class that was calculus based, the formulas were straight up given to us. Granted, they were gone over in class from a calculus standpoint to derive the final equation, but we never really had to use calculus for anything, or maybe one homework problem. This isn't true for going from one calculus class to another, as cal 3 and 4 build on the fundamentals you'll learn in cal 1 and 2, AND trig identities (are important for cal 3 and 4, don't forget your pi circle values).  

Being that you're taking 1 class a semester, try to retain as much info as you can from each class. For the most part, they will build on each other, especially later on.

Thanks for the tips!!

I have 4-5 more years in my current job then I should be set to go back full time for a year or two to finish up the degree and transition my career once I graduate.

I already have a BA so all my non engineering stuff (composition, etc) is done and the goal is knocking out all the math (calc I-III & DE) and physics before I leave current job. Then when I go back full time just bang out all the actual engineering coursework.

Hopefully it goes as planned….but part of being a 38 year old student is knowing that life rarely goes according to Plan haha.

Yeah, unfortunately the timing doesn’t quite work out for Calculus and Physics. Ideally students would have Calculus I under their belts and then they would take Calculus II with the first semester of Elementary Physics, and Multivariable Calculus with the second. Instead, the first year of Physics doesn’t rely on Calculus at all, which I think makes it more difficult.

Physical Chemistry should require Calculus, but usually doesn’t, even though Chemistry majors typically take it in their junior year. That makes P Chem II (quantum mechanics) totally ridiculous.

How in the world did you knock out an M.S. or Ph.D. in Chemistry without getting into math or at least stats well beyond basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division?

Yeah, about 30 years ago when I took PChem, and even now at the same university, pre reps are still listed as year of general Chem, year of organic chem, year of calc, year of physics with Calc.  It is worded different than that, basically listing the number of the second semester courses of general Chem for Chem majors, OChem for Chem majors, real second semester of calc, and second semester of Physics with Calc.

Assuming Calc and general Chem the first year, Physics with Calc and OChem the second year, typically a junior year class.  For a ChemE major the equivalent chemical processes/thermodynamics would also be junior year typically.

I guess if you both did AP BC Calc in HS and Gen Chem AP, when you knocked out Physics and Organic freshman year you could do PChem Sophmore year.

Can you say eigenvalues?  I knew you could!  

ChemE here.  For me all the calc/diff eq was taken by end of sophomore year, and we took thermo in two parts with the first being sophomore and the second being junior.  The way it laid out you had all that knocked out by the time we took the 2nd Pchem with all the quantum mechanics stuff.  Not that it really helped, LOL.

I had the same experience.  Except my worst subject was math.  Never even passed algebra I in high school.  Join the Navy and the first three weeks of school was Algebra, Boolean algebra, Calculus and Trig.  Somehow, I passed it too.

The only thing I remember how to do is convert Hex to decimal or binary.

@ramairthree

Organic Chemistry PhD doesn’t require mathematics beyond basic arithmetic to compute the amounts of reagents to add to a reaction. It’s probably closer to being a chef than anything else.

Too funny.

I don’t have to use any math beyond basic arithmetic other than some serious statistics when all is said and done.
It was necessary to learn/understand a lot of the stuff and provided appropriate hurdles and progression points.

I do enjoy applying it on a daily basis and making the younglings (OK, 30ish year old professionals are not younglings but you know what I mean) know understanding things beats just memorizing things.

Personally I loved Chemistry.  I thought the subject was pretty cool, but I had good professors too, which helps.  State of mind is a factor as well.  If you go in thinking "this is stupid, and really hard, and I'm not smart enough", yea I guess that isn't going to go well.

If you go in "This is the study of how things work really, and I want to learn this!" Then it's a lot more interesting.  

Learning shit like pH curves I thought was cool as shit.  So why is that hydrochloric acid is so strong, and citric acid is OK?   Oh!  pKa, and the math of how pH and pKa's work, I thought was neat (and way more simple than you go in thinking).   And learning that water pH is 7, because that's where you have equal concentration of H+ and OH- in equilibrium with the undissociated H2O at that temperature.  And they talk about how evaporation works, and how the water at the surface is always evaporating and condensing at the same time.  And how dissociation is the little mickey-mouse charges of + and - surrounding the ions and carrying them away, and that's how it dissolves salt.  Eventually you'll get to things like osmosis, and RO membranes, and very easy understanding on why does it take high pressure for an RO membrane to work? (It has very little to do with squeezing the water through tiny pores like a strainer, and everything to do with overcome the tendency of water wanting to surround salt ions, more than gather on the other side of the membrane, where it will forced to be pure - called osmotic pressure.)  I thought all that shit was fascinating, because it's the fundamentals of how does shit really work.  I love figuring out how shit really works, that gets me out of bed in the morning.  You aren't expected to go in already knowing this shit, that's why the class is there to teach you - just go in saying "I want to learn how shit works".  That's pretty much the barrier you have to get over.

I think the main reason I had to take Physics and Chemistry is because I am in a STEM degree path. I am in a Geosciences with a concentration in Technology plan. Ultimately I am just trying to add the degree to the amount of geospatial fundamental knowledge that I have and to ensure that I have a piece of paper that shows I can dedicate myself to something for X amount of time and can be trained. I got an A in both classes a lot of it due to me just pestering the faculty advisors and ensuring they earn their paychecks for that semester. I have 4 classes left which should be relatively skate. I have a "perspectives in technology" class Perspectives in History and Humanities and my capstone. It is the small interdisciplinary and GenEd classes I have left, other than the Capstone.

I am also already looking into my Masters Degree program. I am thinking of taking the Masters of Geoscience program through Texas A&M. Looks like a pretty robust program, and will hopefully pay dividends.

Wanted the opinion of a few here, just a curiosity thing for those who finished up degrees in the STEM fields.

I just got back results on my first chemistry exam this semester. Scored an 88, about where I figured I would be because I’ve been consistently nailing the quizzes and homework around 88-92 range.

Anyways, she then shows us the class distribution and the top score ends up being my lab partner with a 95, I came in 2nd at 88. The class avg was 65 if I recall correctly, with the low end of the dist hitting a 25.

My first degree was in sociology….useless degree IMO which is why I’m back to school now, but I don’t recall EVER seeing scores so wildly spread out and overall low. Should I expect this sort of thing in every course?

It really blew me away honestly, wasn’t expecting so many low scores.

Son is a Chemist with a masters, memorize, memorize, memorize, memorize some more. If you can't memorize, it's going to be a hard class.

You can't not study and expect to pass unless you have a useless teacher that passes everyone.

His visits home were mostly spent studying.

In 1st semester calc based physics it was not uncommon to have the MEDIAN score below 20.  Everyone HATED the guy that got an 82 for blowing the curve.....

It’s not totally unusual these days.

The standard first year of general chemistry with lab any bio major, Chem major, pre-med, etc. would take-
Overall had a class that was 0.8sd higher cognitively 40 years ago than now, and a similar delta compared to 40 years before that.


A lot of college students these days have entirely different career plans after some of these courses.

Keep in mind, just about many major filling their science requirement took a semester of one of these courses back then.
Not the tailored to dumbasses semester of a Science requirement courses they have now.

Circling it back around I am now finally done with my bachelors, I received my digital copy of it the other day, I should receive it in the mail shortly and then commencement in November. I am planning on at least registering for my Masters program by the end of the year. I am applying to Texas A&M for their GIS Track..


Attached File

Kiddo got a full ride chem degree from Kettering then worked full time and got his masters at Eastern. If you want to hear more gobbly gook then you will ever be prepared for, just get his ass started on some chemical formula or product and glaze over at all the 30 letter long precursors he'll enunciate on.

He loved that stuff but even he said he had to study a lot in college and you will NOT pass unless you do. He breezed by advanced classes in HS, he'd come home on the weekend and study most of the time in college.

Very nice, good sir!

(Chemistry minor here. I loved OChem. GenChem was okay. Biochem was so-so).

I wasn’t digging chemistry in high school and in fact I remember making the comment, “ I hate chemistry. What am I ever going to need it for?”  I ate my words…  B.S. Chemistry

Congrats!!

Lol, you’re probably the only physician in history to love organic chemistry…