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Posted: 11/24/2022 1:52:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: Random_Pickle]
The impetus for this post isn't really the prevalence of cheap guns, but rather a related attitude that their advocates tend to adopt. In discussions about the relative desirability of different guns, it's common for "budget option" advocates to accuse other interlocutors of being "elitist" or "gatekeeping" certain areas, and that the cheap guns are necessary since real working men can't reasonably afford the "name brands." In many cases, however, I don't think this is true. It's often the case that cheap gun collectors spend more on their arsenals than their "elitist" counterparts. The smaller individual transactions necessary to amass such an arsenal are more mentally palatable, but one can get nickel-and-dimed to death very easily. To be clear, there's nothing wrong with buying cheap guns if you want to, but don't pretend you couldn't have done otherwise.

Before I continue, I should define what I mean by "cheap guns." For the purposes of this post, they'll fall into two categories:

1) Used, obsolete guns available for low prices. These may be of high quality, but they're of little value for social work. Milsurp bolt actions and old hunting shotguns are the most prolific. These can be worth owning, but owners often complain of being unable to afford modern combat weapons despite having already spent substantial funds on these. It should go without saying that guns for social work must be prioritized over toys.

2) Modern guns that exist purely as cheaper alternatives to preexisting designs. "Cheap" EBRs and pistols are distinguished by not offering any unique or innovative features, and they wouldn't be made if not for their price points. Bargain bin semi atuo shotguns also fall into this category. The process for buying one of these essentially involves finding a name brand with a feature set one likes, and then finding the closest budget alternative. For example, it's reasonable to expect to pay north of $1100 for a quality AR-15, but a distinct class of significantly cheaper alternatives with similar features exist for those unwilling to make such an investment. Let the "just paying for a name" coping commence!

When it comes to "anti-elitist" elocutionists, it's rare for them to own just one or two cheap guns. More often, the cheap guns serve as a means of entry to "gun collecting." One can only get so many "great deals" before they start to add up. It's interesting to examine just how quickly one can cross over the threshold of having spent enough money to afford some very nice guns.'

Here's an example of an archetypical budget collection of four guns:

Milsurp Bolt Action: $150

Cheap EBR: $500

Cheap Pistol or Revolver: $250

Used Hunting Shotgun: $250

The total cost of these guns is $1150. It's important to note that the various types of ammunition and accessories necessary to use these guns means that, in practice, the cost of owning this collection for a couple years should be around $2000 assuming the owner shoots very little. If the owner actually shoots a lot, the need to replace frequently broken parts will further drain his finances.

Assuming, however, that this person only needed to spend $1150, they're still getting very little for their money. Police trade-in Glicks and M&Ps were historically around $350 in the most desirable calibers of 9mm and .45 ACP, meaning that one could have purchased one and outfitted it with a high quality weapon light and holster for little more than the cost of the cheap EBR alone. Even with used Glizzies in the $400 range, a respectable iron-sighted carry setup with spare mags can easily be assembled for under $700, with the option of installing an optic later. One decent pistol is worth more than all the milsurps in the world in terms of practical utility.

EBRs, however, are still important. A quality AR-15 setup isn't cheap, being at least $1500 before the costs of magazines, load bearing gear and combat ammunition are even considered. In my opinion, an EBR needs to have these features to be truly optimal:

Unmagnified aiming capability
Flashlight
Sling
3x or greater magnified aiming capability (lowest priority by far)

With the advent of high quality but relatively inexpensive dot sights, however, one can more easily achieve all the other categories before adding a magnifier later.

It seems surprisingly rare for cheap EBR owners to have just one. Unlike many cheap handgun owners who merely buy a gun and enough ammo to fill the magazine before leaving it somewhere for their kid to find, cheap rifle shooters usually display some level of gun enthusiasm. The usual Walmart version of a standard fighting EBR is often accompanied by a pseudo-retro rifle and another normally configured rifle distinguished only by the owner's belief that it constitutes some kind of sniping weapon thanks to the "Recce" trend. (Seriously guys, what the fuck is a recce rifle? Every mid length AR with magnification seems to qualify.) It's especially worth noting that the cheap "Recce" gun's LPVO and mount usually cost more than a high quality dot/magnifier combo. Furthermore, cheap short stroke piston EBRs often meet or exceed the costs of high quality AR-15s and AKs. Maybe Tokarev was an "elitist."

I think I've rambled long enough to make my position vaguely understandable. Can you afford to miss months of precious live and dry training with the high quality handgun you'll always want just to get some geriatric guns that'll languish in your closet for want of ammo? I'd say "No!" and I know this because I've fallen victim to it myself. Instead of buying a brace of milsurps years ago, I should have bought a soulless Glick and some extendoes. I did later.


APPENDIX A- The AK Platform

The value proposition of cheap USA-made AKs is probably the worst out of any category. These things were never that much cheaper than quality kit builds or decent imports like un-converted Saigas, MAK-90s and WASR 10s, even factoring in the increasing need to replace the latter rifle's trigger group as Century switched from the sometimes problematic TAPCO G2 to the absolutely piss-poor RAK-1. I wouldn't buy the latest generation of WASR due to the absolutely hideous cast gas block, but used WASR 10s still come up for sale around $800 regularly, even the most desirable (imo) 10/63 model. $800 is a fairly typical price for today's "value brand" AKs. The most important aspect of AK buying has always been patience, so don't think you need to spend what most gunbroker boomers are asking. Prices on unconverted Saigas actually seem to have come down a bit in recently years, probably thanks to many prospective buyers refusing to overpay.

If you want a smallbore AK, however, I'm sorry to say that you're facing a difficult situation. The SLR-106 was the most sensible way to scratch this itch in the latter half of Trump's term, but it's been discontinued and replaced with a more expensive, heavier milled model. Arsenal SAMs are some of the smoothest operating rifles on the planet but they're not cost or weight efficient. The Polish Beryls have a 1:9 twist


APPENDIX B- Rifles and Guns

Anyone thinking I've committed some offense by referring to various rifles as "guns" should consider that, since the latter word and its ancestors entered English, it's referred to firearms in general. A handgun can indisputably be called a "gun." A machine gun can indisputably be called a "gun." A shotgun can indisputably be called a "gun." Why would a rifle be any different? The military can tell me how to speak about guns when they stop mounting ACOGs so far forward that they'll never see the full field of view.


This is not an isolated incident.

God Bless you and yours this thanksgiving!
missing
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:13:33 AM EST
[#1]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:20:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: _LandCruiser_] [#2]
Your post in one sentence: have a few outfitted, quality guns instead of a owning a large number of cheap guns.

You don't give any technical details comparing cheap vs. expensive guns, or even talk about value per dollar. Your metric seems solely based on the dollar amount and brand names.

Please don't, though, as I don't want to read another verbose novel written by a poor sesquipedalian.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:23:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: Beretta_Jerry] [#3]
Glock 19 clones are sub 300 bucks.

The People rest, your Honor.

Eta: 3x or greater magnified aiming capability (lowest priority by far)

Are Pacific frogmen jumping the shore? Hey-sus crees-toh
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:25:18 AM EST
[#4]
Mostly right.

Dudes will have 5 or 6 of the same cheap AR15 and complain that they can’t afford a quality optic.  

I remember setting a little aside from every minimum wage paycheck, and it may have taken awhile, but I was able to save up enough to build a quality ar15 after awhile.

Patience is key.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:29:50 AM EST
[#5]
Tldr
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:37:20 AM EST
[#6]
Milsurps are no longer that cheap unless they're the really beat to shit and undesirable models. Go price a K98, Mosin, or Lee Enfield. This isn't the early 2000s anymore.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 2:42:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: MisterPX] [#7]
I have hi points that work 100%...

Zigana $220 guns that run as well as a Springfiled XD...
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:05:00 AM EST
[#8]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:08:19 AM EST
[#9]
I'm too cheap to read all that.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:13:32 AM EST
[#10]
tldr
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:14:30 AM EST
[#11]
Meh, I paid $79 for my K31 and It would work just fine for defense if necessary. The straight pull action is quick and smooth.

I ran an intruder out of my house in the middle of the night using a beat to hell 10/22 and butler creek 25 round mag while I was in high school. It worked just fine.

The gun you have is a hell of a lot more useful than the gun you want.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:14:59 AM EST
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:
Tldr
View Quote
FPNI (again)
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:22:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: Random_Pickle] [#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By _LandCruiser_:
Your post in one sentence: have a few outfitted, quality guns instead of a owning a large number of cheap guns.

You don't give any technical details comparing cheap vs. expensive guns, or even talk about value per dollar. Your metric seems solely based on the dollar amount and brand names.

Please don't, though, as I don't want to read another verbose novel written by a poor sesquipedalian.
View Quote


The record regarding budget bin ARs and Glock clones is pretty clear. If they worked, nobody would buy the expensive ones.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 3:25:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: Random_Pickle] [#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Beretta_Jerry:
Glock 19 clones are sub 300 bucks.

The People rest, your Honor.

Eta: 3x or greater magnified aiming capability (lowest priority by far)

Are Pacific frogmen jumping the shore? Hey-sus crees-toh
View Quote


Is $100 really substantial when it makes the difference between something that'll serve you indefinitely and something shitty?
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 4:00:18 AM EST
[#15]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 4:18:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: shotar] [#16]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 4:25:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: Random_Pickle] [#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shotar:


That's not really true. I mean, people buy, use and have few problems with remingtons, mossbergs, berettas or browning. Holland and Holland still has a two and a half year backlog to buy one of their shotguns.

Some of the cheap guns work fine, some are crap. The trick is to figure out which is what.
View Quote


None of the cheap (sub $900 in today's money) ARs have anything approaching a good track record. Most of the reports that they "work fine" involve someone firing fewer than 5000 rounds and deciding that they're justasgood since they managed to make some arbitrary milestone without breaking. Many don't even make it that far.

If any of the cheap brands were good, nobody in their right mind would pay for the name brands.

A custom built H&H double shotgun is comparable to a full custom 1911. They're far above the baseline in their envelope. Budget ARs don't even meet the baseline of functionality. One doesn't buy a Beretta 686 because they can't afford an H&H, they buy the Beretta because it's a good gun that stands on its own merits, but the H&H still has some specialized benefits over it. A PSA AR only exists as a poor imitation of a better rifle.

Spending $1200 on a good AR isn't remotely comparable to spending $50,000 on an H&H shotgun. It's frankly absurd to suggest otherwise.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 4:39:18 AM EST
[#18]
I have one dude who transfers in a new pistol every week. But he only buys pistols under $400. We often take them out and try them and many seem serviceable. Some of them are evem nice. Two problems will still arise. 1. these are usually guns that will be made in short runs so when something breaks they are a paperweight. There are no mags, holsters or repair support for them. 2. this guy or his next of kin is going to get like $100 a gun for these things when he decides to sell the 600+ cheap handguns. Hes put the cost of two transferable M240s into his collection since ive known him and if he had to sell them all today held get pennys for them. So he has this lame boring collection and he could have been a little more patient and owned a tank with a working gun. To each their own.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 4:54:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: shotar] [#19]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 5:16:00 AM EST
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Random_Pickle:


The record regarding budget bin ARs and Glock clones is pretty clear. If they worked, nobody would buy the expensive ones.
View Quote
I mean that's the very argument you're purporting to be countering.

The "'cheap gun" crowd thinks that since budget ARs and Glock clones work, the only reason anyone buys the expensive ones are just buying the name.

I have to say - you didn't really do much to counter this argument.

You just stated that anything below an arbitrary dollar amount is junk without any evidence or even explanation.

And then you use circular logic that requires your subjective assumptions to be accepted because if not, then no one would accept those subjective assumptions.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 7:50:42 AM EST
[#21]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 7:50:45 AM EST
[#22]
I see some problems here.  The cheapest gun I ever bought now sells for a respectable amount of money.  

It is still the same gun though, with the same capabilities and features, both good and bad, that it always had.

Inflation accounts for part, but not all, of the difference.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 7:59:40 AM EST
[#23]
What milsurps are going for $150?
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 7:59:52 AM EST
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Random_Pickle:


None of the cheap (sub $900 in today's money) ARs have anything approaching a good track record. Most of the reports that they "work fine" involve someone firing fewer than 5000 rounds and deciding that they're justasgood since they managed to make some arbitrary milestone without breaking. Many don't even make it that far.

If any of the cheap brands were good, nobody in their right mind would pay for the name brands.

A custom built H&H double shotgun is comparable to a full custom 1911. They're far above the baseline in their envelope. Budget ARs don't even meet the baseline of functionality. One doesn't buy a Beretta 686 because they can't afford an H&H, they buy the Beretta because it's a good gun that stands on its own merits, but the H&H still has some specialized benefits over it. A PSA AR only exists as a poor imitation of a better rifle.

Spending $1200 on a good AR isn't remotely comparable to spending $50,000 on an H&H shotgun. It's frankly absurd to suggest otherwise.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Random_Pickle:
Originally Posted By shotar:


That's not really true. I mean, people buy, use and have few problems with remingtons, mossbergs, berettas or browning. Holland and Holland still has a two and a half year backlog to buy one of their shotguns.

Some of the cheap guns work fine, some are crap. The trick is to figure out which is what.


None of the cheap (sub $900 in today's money) ARs have anything approaching a good track record. Most of the reports that they "work fine" involve someone firing fewer than 5000 rounds and deciding that they're justasgood since they managed to make some arbitrary milestone without breaking. Many don't even make it that far.

If any of the cheap brands were good, nobody in their right mind would pay for the name brands.

A custom built H&H double shotgun is comparable to a full custom 1911. They're far above the baseline in their envelope. Budget ARs don't even meet the baseline of functionality. One doesn't buy a Beretta 686 because they can't afford an H&H, they buy the Beretta because it's a good gun that stands on its own merits, but the H&H still has some specialized benefits over it. A PSA AR only exists as a poor imitation of a better rifle.

Spending $1200 on a good AR isn't remotely comparable to spending $50,000 on an H&H shotgun. It's frankly absurd to suggest otherwise.

Hypocrite.  You set an arbitrary milestone then decry others for doing the same.

Plenty of cheaper rifles are "good enough" for the vast majority of their expected use cases.  You're not wrong on the amassing an arsenal of cheaper guns, but getting a single cheap AR and cheap Glock copy work well enough for someone who doesn't have a large budget. These rifles aren't being bought for use by special forces. They're hunting and target rifles mostly.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:05:41 AM EST
[#25]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:06:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6winchester2] [#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Smashy:
I'm too cheap to read all that.
View Quote


This.

I'm leaving to go read up more on the "what store brands do you like?" thread.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:10:14 AM EST
[#27]
Something happens and your tier1 grail gun is lost, now you’re screwed.
More cheaper stuff, some off paper in hand spread around so one bad event will not take out everything is smarter where we don’t control all aspects of are life.
I think this a better plan, same with survival supplies and ammo.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:18:07 AM EST
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shotar:
That's not really true. I mean, people buy, use and have few problems with remingtons, mossbergs, berettas or browning. Holland and Holland still has a two and a half year backlog to buy one of their shotguns.

Some of the cheap guns work fine, some are crap. The trick is to figure out which is what.
View Quote

Agreed. I have everything else covered, but on a whim, picked up an inexpensive clone of the Beretta 84. The Turkish Tisas Faith 13, .380.  It's an incredibly well made copy, excellent fit and finish, and 100% reliable thru the first few hundred roumds.

I got it mostly as a DA/SA trainer for young and novice shooters....perfect value.

ROCK6
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:18:32 AM EST
[#29]
OP, while you aren't necessarily wrong, the way you said it sounds super elitist.

That being said, over the years I've owned a decent quantity of OK guns, but during the most recent panic I decided to offload a bunch of my cheaper / spare / backup ARs and consolidate those funds towards a personal grail rifle, which was a much higher quality Sako hunting rifle and quality Steiner glass.  I don't regret it.

But generally, I view the cheaper guns as a stepping stone for many.  Something > nothing for most uses, and a budget alternative works fine for the vast majority of people.  It's the same reason Ford works as well as a Ferrari for most use cases.  And many people decide that firearms and training and knowledge aren't that much of a priority in their lives, which is their judgement to make.  But as long as they vote pro-RKBA, I don't care if they stick with a PSA budget rifle their whole life.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:23:07 AM EST
[#30]
The record regarding budget bin ARs and Glock clones is pretty clear. If they worked, nobody would buy the expensive ones.

I bet to differ
Quality budget is different from cheap
If you test and run a PSA budget AR for regular practice and it is good then it passed the test
The Army.gov shoots low bid M16/M4 and they are fine if broke in and maintained.
Most of the internal parts are made by just a few companies anyway so PSA and other tier1 suppliers have more in common than most will admit
Stay above the made in China/airsoft stuff and test it regularly you will ok.
Tier1 folks have a bigger budget and that is fine, is it big enough for tier1 backups?
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:28:18 AM EST
[#31]
Yawn
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:37:38 AM EST
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By _LandCruiser_:
Your post in one sentence: have a few outfitted, quality guns instead of a owning a large number of cheap guns.

You don't give any technical details comparing cheap vs. expensive guns, or even talk about value per dollar. Your metric seems solely based on the dollar amount and brand names.

Please don't, though, as I don't want to read another verbose novel written by a poor sesquipedalian.
View Quote

I learned a new word today
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:42:51 AM EST
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AbleArcher:
What milsurps are going for $150?
View Quote


Italian Carcano's are about the only thing in that range now, I paid less for mine.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:44:58 AM EST
[#34]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:46:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: Miles_Urbanus] [#35]
I would never dismiss a bolt action combat style rifle like a Mauser or Lee-Enfield as obsolete. They are potent self defense weapons in hard hitting rifle calibers. Outclassed by self loading rifles to be sure but hardly obsolete unless perhaps facing another small unit with more rpm firepower. I’m biased an Irish Contract Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 2 is one of my favorite rifles afield or for plinking.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:52:25 AM EST
[#36]
OP reminds me of my mother. If someone did something she wouldn’t have done, or had an opinion she didn’t share, they were wrong.

Insecure people will go to great lengths to justify why their decision to spend a lot of money (or very little money) on an item they wanted was “the only right decision” and to “prove” that anyone who made a different decision, or had a different opinion, was wrong.

Believing something must be intrinsically good or high quality because it is expensive, and that something must be intrinsically bad or low quality because higher-priced items of the same type exist, is simply not logical. There are a lot of reasons why one product might be inferior or superior to another, and some of those reasons are entirely subjective based on the needs and desires of the people buying it, but MSRP is certainly not a guaranteed indicator of quality.

OP will be starting a new thread shortly, explaining why his $15,000 Taylor Swift tickets were “totally worth it” and that anyone who has ever paid less than that to attend a concert just wasted their money.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:54:36 AM EST
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:
Tldr
View Quote


Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:58:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: LeadBreakfast] [#38]
Originally Posted By Random_Pickle:
The impetus for this post isn't really the prevalence of cheap guns, but rather a related attitude that their advocates tend to adopt. In discussions about the relative desirability of different guns, it's common for "budget option" advocates to accuse other interlocutors of being "elitist" or "gatekeeping" certain areas, and that the cheap guns are necessary since real working men can't reasonably afford the "name brands." In many cases, however, I don't think this is true. It's often the case that cheap gun collectors spend more on their arsenals than their "elitist" counterparts. The smaller individual transactions necessary to amass such an arsenal are more mentally palatable, but one can get nickel-and-dimed to death very easily. To be clear, there's nothing wrong with buying cheap guns if you want to, but don't pretend you couldn't have done otherwise.

Before I continue, I should define what I mean by "cheap guns." For the purposes of this post, they'll fall into two categories:

1) Used, obsolete guns available for low prices. These may be of high quality, but they're of little value for social work. Milsurp bolt actions and old hunting shotguns are the most prolific. These can be worth owning, but owners often complain of being unable to afford modern combat weapons despite having already spent substantial funds on these. It should go without saying that guns for social work must be prioritized over toys.

2) Modern guns that exist purely as cheaper alternatives to preexisting designs. "Cheap" EBRs and pistols are distinguished by not offering any unique or innovative features, and they wouldn't be made if not for their price points. Bargain bin semi atuo shotguns also fall into this category. The process for buying one of these essentially involves finding a name brand with a feature set one likes, and then finding the closest budget alternative. For example, it's reasonable to expect to pay north of $1100 for a quality AR-15, but a distinct class of significantly cheaper alternatives with similar features exist for those unwilling to make such an investment. Let the "just paying for a name" coping commence!

When it comes to "anti-elitist" elocutionists, it's rare for them to own just one or two cheap guns. More often, the cheap guns serve as a means of entry to "gun collecting." One can only get so many "great deals" before they start to add up. It's interesting to examine just how quickly one can cross over the threshold of having spent enough money to afford some very nice guns.'

Here's an example of an archetypical budget collection of four guns:

Milsurp Bolt Action: $150

Cheap EBR: $500

Cheap Pistol or Revolver: $250

Used Hunting Shotgun: $250

The total cost of these guns is $1150. It's important to note that the various types of ammunition and accessories necessary to use these guns means that, in practice, the cost of owning this collection for a couple years should be around $2000 assuming the owner shoots very little. If the owner actually shoots a lot, the need to replace frequently broken parts will further drain his finances.

Assuming, however, that this person only needed to spend $1150, they're still getting very little for their money. Police trade-in Glicks and M&Ps were historically around $350 in the most desirable calibers of 9mm and .45 ACP, meaning that one could have purchased one and outfitted it with a high quality weapon light and holster for little more than the cost of the cheap EBR alone. Even with used Glizzies in the $400 range, a respectable iron-sighted carry setup with spare mags can easily be assembled for under $700, with the option of installing an optic later. One decent pistol is worth more than all the milsurps in the world in terms of practical utility.

EBRs, however, are still important. A quality AR-15 setup isn't cheap, being at least $1500 before the costs of magazines, load bearing gear and combat ammunition are even considered. In my opinion, an EBR needs to have these features to be truly optimal:

Unmagnified aiming capability
Flashlight
Sling
3x or greater magnified aiming capability (lowest priority by far)

With the advent of high quality but relatively inexpensive dot sights, however, one can more easily achieve all the other categories before adding a magnifier later.

It seems surprisingly rare for cheap EBR owners to have just one. Unlike many cheap handgun owners who merely buy a gun and enough ammo to fill the magazine before leaving it somewhere for their kid to find, cheap rifle shooters usually display some level of gun enthusiasm. The usual Walmart version of a standard fighting EBR is often accompanied by a pseudo-retro rifle and another normally configured rifle distinguished only by the owner's belief that it constitutes some kind of sniping weapon thanks to the "Recce" trend. (Seriously guys, what the fuck is a recce rifle? Every mid length AR with magnification seems to qualify.) It's especially worth noting that the cheap "Recce" gun's LPVO and mount usually cost more than a high quality dot/magnifier combo. Furthermore, cheap short stroke piston EBRs often meet or exceed the costs of high quality AR-15s and AKs. Maybe Tokarev was an "elitist."

I think I've rambled long enough to make my position vaguely understandable. Can you afford to miss months of precious live and dry training with the high quality handgun you'll always want just to get some geriatric guns that'll languish in your closet for want of ammo? I'd say "No!" and I know this because I've fallen victim to it myself. Instead of buying a brace of milsurps years ago, I should have bought a soulless Glick and some extendoes. I did later.


APPENDIX A- The AK Platform

The value proposition of cheap USA-made AKs is probably the worst out of any category. These things were never that much cheaper than quality kit builds or decent imports like un-converted Saigas, MAK-90s and WASR 10s, even factoring in the increasing need to replace the latter rifle's trigger group as Century switched from the sometimes problematic TAPCO G2 to the absolutely piss-poor RAK-1. I wouldn't buy the latest generation of WASR due to the absolutely hideous cast gas block, but used WASR 10s still come up for sale around $800 regularly, even the most desirable (imo) 10/63 model. $800 is a fairly typical price for today's "value brand" AKs. The most important aspect of AK buying has always been patience, so don't think you need to spend what most gunbroker boomers are asking. Prices on unconverted Saigas actually seem to have come down a bit in recently years, probably thanks to many prospective buyers refusing to overpay.

If you want a smallbore AK, however, I'm sorry to say that you're facing a difficult situation. The SLR-106 was the most sensible way to scratch this itch in the latter half of Trump's term, but it's been discontinued and replaced with a more expensive, heavier milled model. Arsenal SAMs are some of the smoothest operating rifles on the planet but they're not cost or weight efficient. The Polish Beryls have a 1:9 twist


APPENDIX B- Rifles and Guns

Anyone thinking I've committed some offense by referring to various rifles as "guns" should consider that, since the latter word and its ancestors entered English, it's referred to firearms in general. A handgun can indisputably be called a "gun." A machine gun can indisputably be called a "gun." A shotgun can indisputably be called a "gun." Why would a rifle be any different? The military can tell me how to speak about guns when they stop mounting ACOGs so far forward that they'll never see the full field of view.

https://i0.wp.com/cms.sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Soldier-United-States-Army-Army-M4a1-Carbine-2540213.jpg?fit=960%2C640&ssl=1
This is not an isolated incident.


Buy what you want and stop being so insecure that you base your life choices on what everyone else thinks.

God Bless you and yours this thanksgiving!
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FIFY.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 8:59:06 AM EST
[#39]
When it comes to money, I am more concerned about what I am willing to spend on a thing than what I can afford. I am not willing to spend the money on a so-called "upper tier" AR, even ehough I know I could afford one if I wanted, especially considering how much I have spent on ARs in general over the last 20 years.

I bought my first one 22 years ago as  factory rifle - a Bushmaster I bought from friend - but since then I have assembled 40 of them (and still have 33).  I did that, usually starting with a stripped lower and upper receiver, not looking for the "utimate save my life rifle, when shit goes bad", but because I enjoy assembling ARs from parts, I enjoy taking them to the range and shooting the hell out of them, and I even enjoy figuring things out when something does not work right (which has been rare, but has happened occassionally).

Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:10:08 AM EST
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Seven-Shooter:
OP, while you aren't necessarily wrong, the way you said it sounds super elitist.

That being said, over the years I've owned a decent quantity of OK guns, but during the most recent panic I decided to offload a bunch of my cheaper / spare / backup ARs and consolidate those funds towards a personal grail rifle, which was a much higher quality Sako hunting rifle and quality Steiner glass.  I don't regret it.

But generally, I view the cheaper guns as a stepping stone for many.  Something > nothing for most uses, and a budget alternative works fine for the vast majority of people.  It's the same reason Ford works as well as a Ferrari for most use cases.  And many people decide that firearms and training and knowledge aren't that much of a priority in their lives, which is their judgement to make.  But as long as they vote pro-RKBA, I don't care if they stick with a PSA budget rifle their whole life.
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That's the main thing I heard. I've mostly built my AR's with mid-range parts and can count the number major failures on one hand. These guns could largely be had for under 1k with only my competition guns going beyond. The only thing that comes to mind is a poorly staked bolt that was easily fixed and a no name barrel which had a chamber cut too deep which went in the trash though I'm sure there's a few other minor things. Now I own gauges to check things like that. Just for reference I've actually shot them enough to wear out an old Bushmaster chrome lined barrel and compete in 3-Gun.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:24:03 AM EST
[#41]
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:39:09 AM EST
[#42]
That is a lot of words to pontificate about stuff that only you believe.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:44:12 AM EST
[#43]
I tried to read it and then realized that wall of text never ends.
I on the other hand love cheap guns,expensive guns,broke guns,toy guns,etc.
When I walk into my FFL and he’s like I got some cheap old guns just in I don’t say how much. I say how many?
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:49:42 AM EST
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Naporter:

Hypocrite.  You set an arbitrary milestone then decry others for doing the same.

Plenty of cheaper rifles are "good enough" for the vast majority of their expected use cases.  You're not wrong on the amassing an arsenal of cheaper guns, but getting a single cheap AR and cheap Glock copy work well enough for someone who doesn't have a large budget. These rifles aren't being bought for use by special forces. They're hunting and target rifles mostly.
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I didn't say that 5000 rounds was a good milestone. I said most of those testimonials seem to be below 5000. That's just a statement of what I've seen, not an alleged milestone.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:49:44 AM EST
[#45]
Milsurp Bolt Action: $150

Cheap EBR: $500

Cheap Pistol or Revolver: $250

Used Hunting Shotgun: $250
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1.  Surplus bolt.

Some people like history and they are not being made any more.  Also they are generally high quality

2.  Cheap Modern Sporting Rifle.

Most people won't fire more than 200-1000 rounds through them and then keep 100-500 rounds for "emergencies".

$50 in mags, $20 sling and $90 SIG red-dot will cover everything they want.  Spare mag can go in back pocket or $5 mag pouch in belt.

3.  Cheap pistol or revolver.

No cheap revolvers around unless you get a heritage .22 or the like.  I carried a Ruger EC-9s for a few years and I only paid about $230.  Nothing wrong with that for concealed carry.

4.  Hunting shotgun.

Some people hunt.

In fact I just bought a 20 gauge Maverick 88 youth for about $200 new.  Short enough for home defense, but still has adjustable chokes for hunting.  It will do everything Iight need it for.

5.  Not mentioned:. Cheap hunting rifle.

I have a old Remington 660 in .243 that I bought many moons ago as a SHTF hunting rifle.  Has a decent scope on it and will work pretty good as a mid-range sniper rifle.  Light weight/light recoil will be appreciated as I get older.  Can still hunt everything in my area.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:51:45 AM EST
[#46]
JFC, I hope I can buy a Cliff Notes of that novel.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:54:35 AM EST
[#47]
Yawn
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:55:15 AM EST
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Daggertt:
I mean that's the very argument you're purporting to be countering.

The "'cheap gun" crowd thinks that since budget ARs and Glock clones work, the only reason anyone buys the expensive ones are just buying the name.

I have to say - you didn't really do much to counter this argument.

You just stated that anything below an arbitrary dollar amount is junk without any evidence or even explanation.

And then you use circular logic that requires your subjective assumptions to be accepted because if not, then no one would accept those subjective assumptions.
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The record is very clear that they don't work when they're actually subjected to high round counts. If they did work, the "just buying the name" argument would be true.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:55:52 AM EST
[#49]
That is long.....still

I have 2 Taurus G2C's at $170 that shoot very well. Those I will unload first in a barter society.

Breaking into the dagger market with 3 now at around $270 with is a G19 knockoff

I'm a glock guy with 5. Tired of paying double for name.
Link Posted: 11/24/2022 9:57:41 AM EST
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kychas:
The record regarding budget bin ARs and Glock clones is pretty clear. If they worked, nobody would buy the expensive ones.

I bet to differ
Quality budget is different from cheap
If you test and run a PSA budget AR for regular practice and it is good then it passed the test
The Army.gov shoots low bid M16/M4 and they are fine if broke in and maintained.
Most of the internal parts are made by just a few companies anyway so PSA and other tier1 suppliers have more in common than most will admit
Stay above the made in China/airsoft stuff and test it regularly you will ok.
Tier1 folks have a bigger budget and that is fine, is it big enough for tier1 backups?
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The general issue military rifles are from Colt and FN, built to the pre-CR Colt TDP which is much better than FN's commercial rifles. They're comparable to commercial ARs in the $1000-1500 range. If you think their records prove something about a $500 PSA, I have a bridge to sell you.
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