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Posted: 7/24/2021 3:47:44 PM EDT
[#1]
The only authentic source for information on angles is the Bible and it doesn't go into great detail about them.
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Posted: 7/24/2021 4:22:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only authentic source for information on angles is the Bible and it doesn't go into great detail about them. I think it's fascinating. Because they're referenced in the bible, they're known in popular culture for hundreds of years but I don't know much about them. I was listening to a Thomistic lecture which mentioned them briefly, but didn't expand on them. Which got me thinking I know Michael is the leader of God's army, but I really didn't know much more about him. I know of Gabriel, but he's only mentioned twice in the bible. |
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Posted: 7/24/2021 5:05:03 PM EDT
[#3]
You can start with Dictionary of Angels by Davidson. It’s considered in some circles to be the definitive source for all things Angels.
He did extensive research and lists them all including the fallen angels. It’s a very hard read because while he was a good researcher he wasn’t able to convey that well in writing, however it is a great source book. I would start small and look at the ArchAngels first in my opinion and experience, sticking with the four main Michael Gabriel Raphiel ( the healer of God) And Uriel Then move on to the other ArchAngels. From my experience you can liken them to a function. They each have a specific function or job they are given to do and they do that function solely. They can be found in other avenues but it won’t be something they are “proficient” at. Also they are a pure Intelligence. You will also have to understand that as you move into the orders of Angels, from Archangels to Angels, Virtues, Principalities,Powers,Dominions,Thrones, Cherubim and Seraphim (9 orders in all) they don’t necessarily look like they are pictured in popular art and culture. Good luck and hope you find what you are looking for. |
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Posted: 7/24/2021 5:09:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can start with Dictionary of Angels by Davidson. It’s considered in some circles to be the definitive source for all things Angels. He did extensive research and lists them all including the fallen angels. It’s a very hard read because while he was a good researcher he wasn’t able to convey that well in writing, however it is a great source book. I would start small and look at the ArchAngels first in my opinion and experience, sticking with the four main Michael Gabriel Raphiel ( the healer of God) And Uriel Then move on to the other ArchAngels. From my experience you can liken them to a function. They each have a specific function or job they are given to do and they do that function solely. They can be found in other avenues but it won’t be something they are “proficient” at. Also they are a pure Intelligence. You will also have to understand that as you move into the orders of Angels, from Archangels to Angels, Virtues, Principalities,Powers,Dominions,Thrones, Cherubim and Seraphim (9 orders in all) they don’t necessarily look like they are pictured in popular art and culture. Good luck and hope you find what you are looking for. Thanks, I'll check it out. Appreciate the response. To your last point, I've read they actually do not have bodies. Because man is in the image of God, that's what made the Resurrection important. But angels are from my limited reading...different. |
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Posted: 7/24/2021 6:47:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks, I'll check it out. Appreciate the response. To your last point, I've read they actually do not have bodies. Because man is in the image of God, that's what made the Resurrection important. But angels are from my limited reading...different. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You can start with Dictionary of Angels by Davidson. It’s considered in some circles to be the definitive source for all things Angels. He did extensive research and lists them all including the fallen angels. It’s a very hard read because while he was a good researcher he wasn’t able to convey that well in writing, however it is a great source book. I would start small and look at the ArchAngels first in my opinion and experience, sticking with the four main Michael Gabriel Raphiel ( the healer of God) And Uriel Then move on to the other ArchAngels. From my experience you can liken them to a function. They each have a specific function or job they are given to do and they do that function solely. They can be found in other avenues but it won’t be something they are “proficient” at. Also they are a pure Intelligence. You will also have to understand that as you move into the orders of Angels, from Archangels to Angels, Virtues, Principalities,Powers,Dominions,Thrones, Cherubim and Seraphim (9 orders in all) they don’t necessarily look like they are pictured in popular art and culture. Good luck and hope you find what you are looking for. Thanks, I'll check it out. Appreciate the response. To your last point, I've read they actually do not have bodies. Because man is in the image of God, that's what made the Resurrection important. But angels are from my limited reading...different. They are. It has also been my experience that they don’t necessarily have bodies. They can and will appear in a form that is easiest for you to relate and understand. Once this has been adjusted to, they can and do show their truer form. |
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Posted: 7/24/2021 9:31:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: So quick run-down of what I'm aware of: - God is the first Mover. He's pure actuality with no potentiality. - Humans are rational animals. - Humans are the lowest of the high, and the highest of the low. Meaning in the animal kingdom, we're the highest animal. In the spiritual kingdom, we're the lowest. So I've read and heard Angels actually do not posses the attribute of reason. Because they are above reason, but are not pure actuality like God is. Any further information on what these guys are either philosophically or any good information about them from study? Both archangels like Michael or even just "plain" ones. Thanks! Great thread. The short answer to your question is that there's a reason they call St. Thomas Aquinas the Angelic Doctor.  Naturally, that will be my recommendation; specificially, the Prima Pars. Also, Peter Kreeft, who reveres St. Thomas greatly, has a book on angels. I would recommend that too.Now, what follows is just my ramblings. Because angels not hylomorphic, act and potency become more difficult to articulate. However, I would agree that angels are not pure actuality (God alone is). I would even argue that potentiality remains at the very least as a matter of will. I would use three examples to support this: 1. The fallen angels. 2. St. Raphael in Tobias. 3. The appointment of angels to guardianship. |
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Posted: 7/24/2021 9:47:26 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great thread. The short answer to your question is that there's a reason they call St. Thomas Aquinas the Angelic Doctor. Naturally, that will be my recommendation; specificially, the Prima Pars. Also, Peter Kreeft, who reveres St. Thomas greatly, has a book on angels. I would recommend that too.Now, what follows is just my ramblings. Because angels not hylomorphic, act and potency become more difficult to articulate. However, I would agree that angels are not pure actuality (God alone is). I would even argue that potentiality remains at the very least as a matter of will. I would use three examples to support this: 1. The fallen angels. 2. St. Raphael in Tobias. 3. The appointment of angels to guardianship. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So quick run-down of what I'm aware of: - God is the first Mover. He's pure actuality with no potentiality. - Humans are rational animals. - Humans are the lowest of the high, and the highest of the low. Meaning in the animal kingdom, we're the highest animal. In the spiritual kingdom, we're the lowest. So I've read and heard Angels actually do not posses the attribute of reason. Because they are above reason, but are not pure actuality like God is. Any further information on what these guys are either philosophically or any good information about them from study? Both archangels like Michael or even just "plain" ones. Thanks! Great thread. The short answer to your question is that there's a reason they call St. Thomas Aquinas the Angelic Doctor. Naturally, that will be my recommendation; specificially, the Prima Pars. Also, Peter Kreeft, who reveres St. Thomas greatly, has a book on angels. I would recommend that too.Now, what follows is just my ramblings. Because angels not hylomorphic, act and potency become more difficult to articulate. However, I would agree that angels are not pure actuality (God alone is). I would even argue that potentiality remains at the very least as a matter of will. I would use three examples to support this: 1. The fallen angels. 2. St. Raphael in Tobias. 3. The appointment of angels to guardianship. Piqued my interest previously, then was listening to a lecture on hylomorphicism from the Thomistic Institute, which started this thread. I get hylomorphicism. I do not fully understand angels. I'll buy that book. Thanks brother. 
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Posted: 7/24/2021 10:37:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Father Ripperger on guardian angels
 Guardian Angels ~ Fr Ripperger |
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Posted: 7/24/2021 11:00:16 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Piqued my interest previously, then was listening to a lecture on hylomorphicism from the Thomistic Institute, which started this thread. I get hylomorphicism. I do not fully understand angels. I'll buy that book. Thanks brother. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: So quick run-down of what I'm aware of: - God is the first Mover. He's pure actuality with no potentiality. - Humans are rational animals. - Humans are the lowest of the high, and the highest of the low. Meaning in the animal kingdom, we're the highest animal. In the spiritual kingdom, we're the lowest. So I've read and heard Angels actually do not posses the attribute of reason. Because they are above reason, but are not pure actuality like God is. Any further information on what these guys are either philosophically or any good information about them from study? Both archangels like Michael or even just "plain" ones. Thanks! Great thread. The short answer to your question is that there's a reason they call St. Thomas Aquinas the Angelic Doctor. Naturally, that will be my recommendation; specificially, the Prima Pars. Also, Peter Kreeft, who reveres St. Thomas greatly, has a book on angels. I would recommend that too.Now, what follows is just my ramblings. Because angels not hylomorphic, act and potency become more difficult to articulate. However, I would agree that angels are not pure actuality (God alone is). I would even argue that potentiality remains at the very least as a matter of will. I would use three examples to support this: 1. The fallen angels. 2. St. Raphael in Tobias. 3. The appointment of angels to guardianship. Piqued my interest previously, then was listening to a lecture on hylomorphicism from the Thomistic Institute, which started this thread. I get hylomorphicism. I do not fully understand angels. I'll buy that book. Thanks brother. My pleasure, brother. I seemed to recall that Garrigou-Lagrange wrote on angels too, but could not remember any titles. After searching, was not disappointed. Here's a very high-level summary from him. |
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Posted: 7/24/2021 11:14:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My pleasure, brother. I seemed to recall that Garrigou-Lagrange wrote on angels too, but could not remember any titles. After searching, was not disappointed. Here's a very high-level summary from him. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So quick run-down of what I'm aware of: - God is the first Mover. He's pure actuality with no potentiality. - Humans are rational animals. - Humans are the lowest of the high, and the highest of the low. Meaning in the animal kingdom, we're the highest animal. In the spiritual kingdom, we're the lowest. So I've read and heard Angels actually do not posses the attribute of reason. Because they are above reason, but are not pure actuality like God is. Any further information on what these guys are either philosophically or any good information about them from study? Both archangels like Michael or even just "plain" ones. Thanks! Great thread. The short answer to your question is that there's a reason they call St. Thomas Aquinas the Angelic Doctor. Naturally, that will be my recommendation; specificially, the Prima Pars. Also, Peter Kreeft, who reveres St. Thomas greatly, has a book on angels. I would recommend that too.Now, what follows is just my ramblings. Because angels not hylomorphic, act and potency become more difficult to articulate. However, I would agree that angels are not pure actuality (God alone is). I would even argue that potentiality remains at the very least as a matter of will. I would use three examples to support this: 1. The fallen angels. 2. St. Raphael in Tobias. 3. The appointment of angels to guardianship. Piqued my interest previously, then was listening to a lecture on hylomorphicism from the Thomistic Institute, which started this thread. I get hylomorphicism. I do not fully understand angels. I'll buy that book. Thanks brother. My pleasure, brother. I seemed to recall that Garrigou-Lagrange wrote on angels too, but could not remember any titles. After searching, was not disappointed. Here's a very high-level summary from him. Great article, thank you. I've read Aquinas on how there's differences between things, being, sensing, etc. I've also read angels are their own species, thanks to Aquinas. But this was a good read. Thank you brother. |
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Posted: 7/24/2021 11:19:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My pleasure, brother. I seemed to recall that Garrigou-Lagrange wrote on angels too, but could not remember any titles. After searching, was not disappointed. Here's a very high-level summary from him. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So quick run-down of what I'm aware of: - God is the first Mover. He's pure actuality with no potentiality. - Humans are rational animals. - Humans are the lowest of the high, and the highest of the low. Meaning in the animal kingdom, we're the highest animal. In the spiritual kingdom, we're the lowest. So I've read and heard Angels actually do not posses the attribute of reason. Because they are above reason, but are not pure actuality like God is. Any further information on what these guys are either philosophically or any good information about them from study? Both archangels like Michael or even just "plain" ones. Thanks! Great thread. The short answer to your question is that there's a reason they call St. Thomas Aquinas the Angelic Doctor. Naturally, that will be my recommendation; specificially, the Prima Pars. Also, Peter Kreeft, who reveres St. Thomas greatly, has a book on angels. I would recommend that too.Now, what follows is just my ramblings. Because angels not hylomorphic, act and potency become more difficult to articulate. However, I would agree that angels are not pure actuality (God alone is). I would even argue that potentiality remains at the very least as a matter of will. I would use three examples to support this: 1. The fallen angels. 2. St. Raphael in Tobias. 3. The appointment of angels to guardianship. Piqued my interest previously, then was listening to a lecture on hylomorphicism from the Thomistic Institute, which started this thread. I get hylomorphicism. I do not fully understand angels. I'll buy that book. Thanks brother. My pleasure, brother. I seemed to recall that Garrigou-Lagrange wrote on angels too, but could not remember any titles. After searching, was not disappointed. Here's a very high-level summary from him. I read this again and am happy to report I get it more but I don't get it entirely. Which is right where I am. |
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Posted: 7/24/2021 11:46:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only authentic source for information on angles is the Bible and it doesn't go into great detail about them. This |
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Posted: 7/25/2021 1:27:15 AM EDT
[#13]
I would stick to the Bible for an accurate picture of their attributes. I think it’s inaccurate that humans are the lowest level spiritual beings. We are made in the image of God, God became a man in Christ Jesus, he saved us, and those who believe in Jesus were chosen before creation.
Angels don’t seem to be to different from us, and Jesus says we will be like them after the resurrection. I don’t see where they would not have reason. |
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Posted: 7/27/2021 12:34:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would stick to the Bible for an accurate picture of their attributes. I think it’s inaccurate that humans are the lowest level spiritual beings. We are made in the image of God, God became a man in Christ Jesus, he saved us, and those who believe in Jesus were chosen before creation. Angels don’t seem to be to different from us, and Jesus says we will be like them after the resurrection. I don’t see where they would not have reason. This is a good thread, so I'll answer in the interest of keeping the good discussion going. I'll work this from the bottom up. Theologians have deduced that angels do not have reason because they have no need for it. Man learns analogically through sense input. For example, as a child, I learned that (1) my hand burned when I touched the stove; (2) the stove is hot; (3) therefore, I should be careful when interacting with hot things. As we grow in knowledge, we began to connect dots in more complex and even abstract ideas. We connect these dots through reason. In contrast, angels do not need reason because they were infused with full knowledge at their creation. Jesus saying that we will become like angels presupposes the premise that we are not like angels. Further, if Christ promises us that we will become like angels, He would certainly promise elevation. This seems to support that angels are at least spiritually higher. Aside from that particular quote, I cannot recall any examples in Holy Scripture where angels appear less powerful than men. |
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Posted: 7/27/2021 12:59:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is a good thread, so I'll answer in the interest of keeping the good discussion going. I'll work this from the bottom up. Theologians have deduced that angels do not have reason because they have no need for it. Man learns analogically through sense input. For example, as a child, I learned that (1) my hand burned when I touched the stove; (2) the stove is hot; (3) therefore, I should be careful when interacting with hot things. As we grow in knowledge, we began to connect dots in more complex and even abstract ideas. We connect these dots through reason. In contrast, angels do not need reason because they were infused with full knowledge at their creation. Jesus saying that we will become like angels presupposes the premise that we are not like angels. Further, if Christ promises us that we will become like angels, He would certainly promise elevation. This seems to support that angels are at least spiritually higher. Aside from that particular quote, I cannot recall any examples in Holy Scripture where angels appear less powerful than men. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would stick to the Bible for an accurate picture of their attributes. I think it’s inaccurate that humans are the lowest level spiritual beings. We are made in the image of God, God became a man in Christ Jesus, he saved us, and those who believe in Jesus were chosen before creation. Angels don’t seem to be to different from us, and Jesus says we will be like them after the resurrection. I don’t see where they would not have reason. This is a good thread, so I'll answer in the interest of keeping the good discussion going. I'll work this from the bottom up. Theologians have deduced that angels do not have reason because they have no need for it. Man learns analogically through sense input. For example, as a child, I learned that (1) my hand burned when I touched the stove; (2) the stove is hot; (3) therefore, I should be careful when interacting with hot things. As we grow in knowledge, we began to connect dots in more complex and even abstract ideas. We connect these dots through reason. In contrast, angels do not need reason because they were infused with full knowledge at their creation. Jesus saying that we will become like angels presupposes the premise that we are not like angels. Further, if Christ promises us that we will become like angels, He would certainly promise elevation. This seems to support that angels are at least spiritually higher. Aside from that particular quote, I cannot recall any examples in Holy Scripture where angels appear less powerful than men. I was just reading about this, but then why would the angels turn from God with preloaded knowledge? |
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Posted: 7/27/2021 1:04:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was just reading about this, but then why would the angels turn from God with preloaded knowledge? Their knowledge may not be (probably is not) omniscient. Pride. It is the deadliest sin for a reason. |
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Posted: 7/27/2021 1:31:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their knowledge may not be (probably is not) omniscient. Pride. It is the deadliest sin for a reason. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was just reading about this, but then why would the angels turn from God with preloaded knowledge? Their knowledge may not be (probably is not) omniscient. Pride. It is the deadliest sin for a reason. Humans need reason because we're animals. So through reason we can find God. Through reason we can enjoy God. Both in the sense we can prove God like Aquinas' first Mover or we can simply see God's creation by being near a beautiful river outside and enjoying nature. But Angels were aware of God and his omniscience. I was driving and listening to a podcast explain it, and the Friar basically said maybe they just chose to rest in the natural joy God gave them. This guy agrees with you it's either pride or envy.  Angelic Knowledge and Choice (Aquinas 101) |
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Posted: 7/27/2021 1:44:07 PM EDT
[#18]
 Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 7/27/2021 1:53:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was just reading about this, but then why would the angels turn from God with preloaded knowledge? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would stick to the Bible for an accurate picture of their attributes. I think it’s inaccurate that humans are the lowest level spiritual beings. We are made in the image of God, God became a man in Christ Jesus, he saved us, and those who believe in Jesus were chosen before creation. Angels don’t seem to be to different from us, and Jesus says we will be like them after the resurrection. I don’t see where they would not have reason. This is a good thread, so I'll answer in the interest of keeping the good discussion going. I'll work this from the bottom up. Theologians have deduced that angels do not have reason because they have no need for it. Man learns analogically through sense input. For example, as a child, I learned that (1) my hand burned when I touched the stove; (2) the stove is hot; (3) therefore, I should be careful when interacting with hot things. As we grow in knowledge, we began to connect dots in more complex and even abstract ideas. We connect these dots through reason. In contrast, angels do not need reason because they were infused with full knowledge at their creation. Jesus saying that we will become like angels presupposes the premise that we are not like angels. Further, if Christ promises us that we will become like angels, He would certainly promise elevation. This seems to support that angels are at least spiritually higher. Aside from that particular quote, I cannot recall any examples in Holy Scripture where angels appear less powerful than men. I was just reading about this, but then why would the angels turn from God with preloaded knowledge? Not terribly unlike men. It's not a issue of the intellect, but one of the will. That is why we believe that their fall is eternal (I'm sure some universalists would probably disagree with me, but I'll stick with St. Thomas Aquinas  ).
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Posted: 7/27/2021 1:57:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their knowledge may not be (probably is not) omniscient. Pride. It is the deadliest sin for a reason. I would speculate that it’s possible at one time the angels or at least some of them didn’t fully understand God or his power ( possibly still don’t). Satan did think that he could become God so it’s possible he didn’t have a full understanding of God. Or perhaps his pride made him extremely delusional. This should make us take pause and recognize how powerful the enemy is. |
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Posted: 7/27/2021 1:59:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not terribly unlike men. It's not a issue of the intellect, but one of the will. That is why we believe that their fall is eternal (I'm sure some universalists would probably disagree with me, but I'll stick with St. Thomas Aquinas ).They’re disagreeing with the scripture. Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. |
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Posted: 7/27/2021 6:49:32 PM EDT
[#22]
 Conversation of Constantine with Lucifer. Constantine |
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Posted: 7/28/2021 2:20:20 AM EDT
[#23]
rando anecdote i been poohhhhndering:
angels typically appear in dreams and not when you awake? conversely, demons do the opposite? thats kinda interesting if i am right |
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Posted: 7/28/2021 9:12:23 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: rando anecdote i been poohhhhndering: angels typically appear in dreams and not when you awake? conversely, demons do the opposite? thats kinda interesting if i am right Well that kinda dispels the guardian angel. The Irish had a prayer you could say every night and basically asked for the guardian angel's name so you could thank them directly. The guardian angel concept is a rabbit hole in itself |
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Posted: 7/28/2021 9:59:47 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: rando anecdote i been poohhhhndering: angels typically appear in dreams and not when you awake? conversely, demons do the opposite? thats kinda interesting if i am right I wouldn’t necessarily say this is the case. From my experience, it can and does happen the other way around. On another note, just like many assume demons are the only entity that can and will “possess” an individual, angels and similar can as well. It’s not called possession in the case of Angels etc though, but the psychological mechanics are pretty much the same. |
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Posted: 7/28/2021 11:19:09 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: rando anecdote i been poohhhhndering: angels typically appear in dreams and not when you awake? conversely, demons do the opposite? thats kinda interesting if i am right Except for St Gabriel at the Annunciation.... St Raphael journey with Tobias.... the angels that protected Lot..... etc.. ETA: Fr Ripperger (who is a Thomist & an experienced Exorcist, who runs an order of Exorcists) sts that you can speak mentally with uour Guardian Angel and others... but not demons. He says that they can not read your thoughts. But due to their vastly greater intelligence, they deduce things about someone, from actions, things you've said. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 9:55:44 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except for St Gabriel at the Annunciation.... St Raphael journey with Tobias.... the angels that protected Lot..... etc.. ETA: Fr Ripperger (who is a Thomist & an experienced Exorcist, who runs an order of Exorcists) sts that you can speak mentally with uour Guardian Angel and others... but not demons. He says that they can not read your thoughts. But due to their vastly greater intelligence, they deduce things about someone, from actions, things you've said. I've heard a couple priests say that you should never talk "to" a demon, even to say no to something...that that interaction can become an invitation to possession. They said that when confronted with something demonic the safer action is to pray to God/Jesus/guardian angel(s) for protection. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 11:10:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've heard a couple priests say that you should never talk "to" a demon, even to say no to something...that that interaction can become an invitation to possession. They said that when confronted with something demonic the safer action is to pray to God/Jesus/guardian angel(s) for protection. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Except for St Gabriel at the Annunciation.... St Raphael journey with Tobias.... the angels that protected Lot..... etc.. ETA: Fr Ripperger (who is a Thomist & an experienced Exorcist, who runs an order of Exorcists) sts that you can speak mentally with uour Guardian Angel and others... but not demons. He says that they can not read your thoughts. But due to their vastly greater intelligence, they deduce things about someone, from actions, things you've said. I've heard a couple priests say that you should never talk "to" a demon, even to say no to something...that that interaction can become an invitation to possession. They said that when confronted with something demonic the safer action is to pray to God/Jesus/guardian angel(s) for protection. I agree to a point. But why would you then say, "Begon satan!" or "get behind me demon!".... I have also been told to say a Hail Mary due to their complete hate of the Woman Clothed with the Sun. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 12:24:59 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree to a point. But why would you then say, "Begon satan!" or "get behind me demon!".... I have also been told to say a Hail Mary due to their complete hate of the Woman Clothed with the Sun. According to the Vatican's leading exorcist, FATHER GABRIELE AMORTH, the Lord's Prayer, followed by any plea to the Blessed Mother (not necessarily the Hail Mary) are the most potent prayers. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 12:29:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to the Vatican's leading exorcist, FATHER GABRIELE AMORTH, the Lord's Prayer, followed by any plea to the Blessed Mother (not necessarily the Hail Mary) are the most potent prayers. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I agree to a point. But why would you then say, "Begon satan!" or "get behind me demon!".... I have also been told to say a Hail Mary due to their complete hate of the Woman Clothed with the Sun. According to the Vatican's leading exorcist, FATHER GABRIELE AMORTH, the Lord's Prayer, followed by any plea to the Blessed Mother (not necessarily the Hail Mary) are the most potent prayers. I was watching an interview and apparently demons really hate Latin |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 12:42:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was watching an interview and apparently demons really hate Latin I read Father Amorth's, Memories of An Exorcist, but I don't recall him bringing that up. I don't see how or why that would be the case. It's no different than any other language. Who knows...? |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 12:49:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: - God is the first Mover. He's pure actuality with no potentiality. I knew an ex-priest turned philosopher. His personal theory on how we have freewill and a all knowing God was that time moving forward is being created at the same moment for us and God. God knows every detail of every moment back since creation, since the future has not happened yet for us or God then there's nothing to know, hence freewill. My thoughts to him on this were if God knew everything going back to creation then God could very accurately predict what's going to happen next at each moment. Almost like God knows what your going to do without mandating your actions. A very interesting philosophical theory that's stuck with me for years. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 1:15:47 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read Father Amorth's, Memories of An Exorcist, but I don't recall him bringing that up. I don't see how or why that would be the case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was watching an interview and apparently demons really hate Latin I read Father Amorth's, Memories of An Exorcist, but I don't recall him bringing that up. I don't see how or why that would be the case. I have no direct experience--and I like to keep that way--but there are many accounts that Latin does make a difference. Jesse Romero, who wrote The Devil in the City of Angels, is one name that comes in mind. It's no different than any other language.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 1:35:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryYes, it is. I don't see why this would be some odd statement. I mean, Jesus primarily spoke Aramaic and Hebrew, the Apostles did the same but added Greek. The first Churches were in local languages, the first unified Church was led in Greek, etc. Latin is the language of the Church for most of its history, and is still used for its theological statements today, but everyday business, its masses, etc. are in the vernaculars. That's all I'm saying. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 1:36:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no direct experience--and I like to keep that way--but there are many accounts that Latin does make a difference. Jesse Romero, who wrote The Devil in the City of Angels, is one name that comes in mind. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/59617/iu_jpeg-2042221.JPG What was crazy to me is some of the church prayers to get demons out are from before Christ's time |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 1:43:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What was crazy to me is some of the church prayers to get demons out are from before Christ's time Really? Do you have any examples? This is interesting to me. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 1:50:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read Father Amorth's, Memories of An Exorcist, but I don't recall him bringing that up. I don't see how or why that would be the case. It's no different than any other language. Who knows...? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was watching an interview and apparently demons really hate Latin I read Father Amorth's, Memories of An Exorcist, but I don't recall him bringing that up. I don't see how or why that would be the case. It's no different than any other language. Who knows...? Exorcusts say 2 reasons. One, it's the language of the Church. Two, it is purer than most languages since no one is swearing with now. That's their theory. Eitherway, Hebrew/Greek/Latin are the Sacred Languages due to being the ones written on the Cross. That could be another reason. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 1:56:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree to a point. But why would you then say, "Begon satan!" or "get behind me demon!".... I have also been told to say a Hail Mary due to their complete hate of the Woman Clothed with the Sun. I wouldn't think to say that. Maybe that's just me. I have also heard that the Hail Mary actually hurts the devil, so I'm on board with this. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 2:01:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really? Do you have any examples? This is interesting to me. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What was crazy to me is some of the church prayers to get demons out are from before Christ's time Really? Do you have any examples? This is interesting to me. He mentions it in this podcast I think.... If not still a good listen.  Interview with an Exorcist (Fr Vincent Lampert) |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 2:44:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, it is. I don't see why this would be some odd statement. I mean, Jesus primarily spoke Aramaic and Hebrew, the Apostles did the same but added Greek. The first Churches were in local languages, the first unified Church was led in Greek, etc. Latin is the language of the Church for most of its history, and is still used for its theological statements today, but everyday business, its masses, etc. are in the vernaculars. That's all I'm saying. Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, it is. I don't see why this would be some odd statement. I mean, Jesus primarily spoke Aramaic and Hebrew, the Apostles did the same but added Greek. The first Churches were in local languages, the first unified Church was led in Greek, etc. Latin is the language of the Church for most of its history, and is still used for its theological statements today, but everyday business, its masses, etc. are in the vernaculars. That's all I'm saying. Why Latin is special deserves its own thread, but as it pertains to this topic: "[Fr. Amorth] prefers to use Latin when he conducts exorcisms [...] because it is most effective in challenging the devil." https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1842528/posts |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 2:48:26 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He mentions it in this podcast I think.... If not still a good listen.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6YTz-B24FAFr. Lampert is a good dude. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 3:31:10 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fr. Lampert is a good dude. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He mentions it in this podcast I think.... If not still a good listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6YTz-B24FAFr. Lampert is a good dude. Yeah he seems really down to earth and a solid guy for sure |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 3:57:57 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah he seems really down to earth and a solid guy for sure Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: He mentions it in this podcast I think.... If not still a good listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6YTz-B24FAFr. Lampert is a good dude. Yeah he seems really down to earth and a solid guy for sure "After a hard day fighting demons. I went a d had a milk shake at Dairy Queen."
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Posted: 8/6/2021 4:57:33 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exorcusts say 2 reasons. One, it's the language of the Church. Two, it is purer than most languages since no one is swearing with now. That's their theory. Eitherway, Hebrew/Greek/Latin are the Sacred Languages due to being the ones written on the Cross. That could be another reason. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was watching an interview and apparently demons really hate Latin I read Father Amorth's, Memories of An Exorcist, but I don't recall him bringing that up. I don't see how or why that would be the case. It's no different than any other language. Who knows...? Exorcusts say 2 reasons. One, it's the language of the Church. Two, it is purer than most languages since no one is swearing with now. That's their theory. Eitherway, Hebrew/Greek/Latin are the Sacred Languages due to being the ones written on the Cross. That could be another reason. No direct experience with Latin, so can’t comment on that, but I know from direct experience Hebrew carries a much heavier weight in these things than English. We were taught that the angels respond more directly to Hebrew than anything else owing to how old the language is and because to them it’s a more “universal” language. No idea of the validity of that, but owing to how much the Hebrew alphabet has been concentrated on, and the symbols associated with each individual letter, as well as how long it’s been used, it definitely has a distinct difference in effect. Granted I understand your were discussing demons, Latin and exorcism , which I won’t comment on, but figured I’d throw that out there as a different perspective of what’s taught in relation to Angels in a similar manner. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 5:54:05 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why Latin is special deserves its own thread, but as it pertains to this topic: "[Fr. Amorth] prefers to use Latin when he conducts exorcisms [...] because it is most effective in challenging the devil." https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1842528/posts Well, I guess it must be the case then. Fr. Amorth definitely has the credentials to make a statement like that. Why this is the case I could not say, but if he, as someone who is in the trenches says it then I believe it. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 5:56:56 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I guess it must be the case then. Fr. Amorth definitely has the credentials to make a statement like that. Why this is the case I could not say, but if he, as someone who is in the trenches says it then I believe it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why Latin is special deserves its own thread, but as it pertains to this topic: "[Fr. Amorth] prefers to use Latin when he conducts exorcisms [...] because it is most effective in challenging the devil." https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1842528/posts Well, I guess it must be the case then. Fr. Amorth definitely has the credentials to make a statement like that. Why this is the case I could not say, but if he, as someone who is in the trenches says it then I believe it. In the interview I posted the Fr. mentions they authorized another prayer in 1998 but sometimes the old Latin one is still better. He uses both. |
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Posted: 8/6/2021 6:03:56 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the interview I posted the Fr. mentions they authorized another prayer in 1998 but sometimes the old Latin one is still better. He uses both. I think this is the prayer you are thinking of. He specifically writes this one down in his book: My Lord, you are all powerful, you are God, you are Father. We beg you through the intercession and help of the archangels Michael, Raphael and Gabriel, for the deliverance of our brothers and sisters who are enslaved by the evil one. All saints of Heaven, come to our aid. From anxiety, sadness and obsessions, we beg You. Free us, O Lord. From hatred, fornication, envy, we beg You, Free us, O Lord. From thoughts of jealousy, rage, and death, we beg You, Free us, O Lord. From every thought of suicide and abortion, we beg You, Free us, O Lord. From every form of sinful sexuality, we beg You, Free us, O Lord. From every division in our family, and every harmful friendship, we beg You, Free us, O Lord. From every sort of spell, malefic, witchcraft, and every form of the occult, we beg You, Free us, O Lord. Lord, You Who said, “I leave you peace, My peace I give you,” grant that, through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, we may be liberated from every evil spell and enjoy your peace always. In the name of Christ, our Lord. Amen. |
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Posted: 8/8/2021 1:18:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I guess it must be the case then. Fr. Amorth definitely has the credentials to make a statement like that. Why this is the case I could not say, but if he, as someone who is in the trenches says it then I believe it. General hypothesis includes that 1) Latin is the official language of the Roman Catholic Church and 2) Latin is one of the languages made sacred by being inscribed on the cross of Jesus. |
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