Preaching starts @ 29:45

Wait until he figures out that he is an "open theist".

And that is a good thing.

I made it from 29 min to 32 min.  He needs to actually study history and the Bible.  I don’t care if someone is reformed or not.  That doesn’t matter in the big scheme of things.  TheGospel of Christ is what matters. Calvin , right or wrong didnt invent anything.

It seems he invented double predestination, which ultimately makes the "good news" (gospel), well, pretty crappy for anyone not elect. Turns God into a tyrant, and makes Jesus' parables and other teachings in the Gospels rather... odd?

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock, and I am not allowing you to get up and answer the door..." kinda doesn't have the same hopeful ring to it.

" if any man hear my voice"


14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f

16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? 25As He says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”

26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,‘You are not My people, ’they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’?”

So this is a King James Version only church

And then he calls Calvinism satanic....yea...not going well

So preaching total depravity (which Jesus preached) is being prideful and full of it...

And this guy thinks Calvin came up with the term TULIP

The man was French. Dépravation totale would be how to say it in French. TULIP was an acronym decided by the Second Synod of Dort.

It would seem you should at least know what you're talking about before talking about it.

Calvin didn’t invent that stuff. If God predestines people for salvation, the others obviously are not predestined for salvation.  

If God knows all and knows before you are born if you will choose Him, and still let’s people be born whom He knows will not accept Him, and will be lost, isn’t that a form of predestination?  

Those are two different theologies that can both be labeled as God deciding.

It’s easy to cast stones if you disagree.  However, neither of these beliefs is a damnable herecy. Christ died so that sinners could be reconciled with God because we can’t do it.  Whatever your “label” if you accept that, you believe the gospel.

Other ignorant statements in this thing:
"if you don't have a KJV you don't even have a Bible"

So what did the early Apostles have and every other believer from Jesus' time until the 1600s?

The reason he made the statement was that this verse could only be found in the KJV per him
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Compare that with the NASB
And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
HCSB
And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart you may.” And he replied, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

I know let's examine the "damnable" Geneva Bible that Calvin used and even help translate
37 [a]And Philip said unto him, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. Then he answered, and said, [b]I believe that that Jesus Christ is that Son of God.



Oh if ignorance wasn't so widely and loudly made available

48:56 as he's making fun of God "sitting around and choosing" before the beginning of time those who were going to be his elect....

How does a supposed man of God not know the verses
"4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

It is a big leap from to take the word "us" to mean God has exhaustively chosen each particular individual rather than "us" meaning God has chosen the corporate body and the specific individuals choose to be part of that corporate body.  

Calvinism requires a very specific meaning of the word "us" in this instance in order to use the word to support its doctrine.

I'll use the KJV to stay within the parameters of this guy

John 6:37-39

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:65
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Romans 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Proverbs 16:4
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

1 Peter
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Galatians 1:15
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (this one does read quite differently in the KJV than other translations so to better display this here is the ESV and NASB
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Colossians 3:12
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Titus 1:1
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

How many verses do we need before we acknowledge election?

You've shotgunned a bunch of verses, and I can write a 10,000 word response. I propose something different. Let's evaluate this single verse in its context. This verse is the conclusion from the parable of the Wedding Banquet. Jesus take his time to define who is "called" and  who is "chosen". These are very specific groups of people.

Let's read:

Matthew 22
1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Those that "did not deserve to come" were those that "refused" "paid no attention", and mistreated the servants. That isn't predestination from eternity past, they chose to not come in the most strident of ways while being fully informed of the importance of coming. In contrast, those that did choose to come was "anybody they could find, the bad as well as the good".

Even those that chose to come were not all "chosen". For final acceptance, you also had to be wearing the garment that the king provided (as was custom) rather than your own garments, because it is the king that bestows honor on the guests in his house, not the guests bestowing honor on themselves. It is at this point somebody is considered to be "chosen" and accepted to stay at the wedding banquet.

Whatever you want to use this verse for, its context is about the kingdom and who is chosen. The specific individual chosen weren't chosen in eternity past, and they weren't known before the process began, but they were chosen after they made their own choices.

Then they weren’t chosen. God is all knowing.  So before He created them, He knew they would not choose Him.  And He created them anyway, knowing they would not be saved…with no purpose?

This passage only further shows my point.

He invited those he had known previously (presumably the Jewish people who had lost interest for lack of better term). They had no use for the man or his party. So they still fall under the banner of the invited. So the servants go out among the other people (presumably gentiles, etc) and invite them in and all but one apparently are chosen and allowed to stay. Someone though chose on his own to come to the party and wasn't wearing wedding clothes. He came into the party, so why wasn't he allowed to stay? Because he wasn't chosen. "Many are invited, few are chosen"

I have a hard time wondering why you would want to write a 10,000 word document refuting that mountain of scripture. The majority is perfectly clear as to what it says. Why we had to ignore all of that and rather move on to another portion of scripture I'm also not sure about. Feel free to address the ones I posted and then we can go from there.

I think "all" needs to be defined in "all knowing". Omniscience is a very burdensome concept and leads to lots of contradictions. I don't think it is necessary for God to know where every quark in the universe is and what it is doing at all times. God may just have a plan and purpose and tools to make it happen. Like any king, he just needs to know enough and have smart and capable servants to get it done.

In the space between God having "omniscience" and God knowing "know[ing] enough" lies free will.

You're making a lot of assumptions there and ones that are in contrast (again) to Scripture

Psalm 147 says
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

Psalm 8
When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place

Deut 4
And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

Amos 5
He who made the Pleiades and Orion, and turns deep darkness into the morning and darkens the day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the surface of the earth, the Lord is his name

The passage demolishes you point. If the first group "lost interest", they made a choice. In the moment, they chose not to be there. Them being potentially chosen or not chosen was determined by them in that moment, not in eternity past. The king did not know their choice until the servants reported it.

In the last group, they made a choice. They chose to be there. Them being potentially chosen or not chosen was determined by them in that moment, not in eternity past.

If the king chose to put garments on the last guy or not, the choice was made in that moment. The king did not previously know the man was coming, but noticed him there.




A "mountain" of half truths doesn't amount to a truth.


In contrast I submit that God answers prayers and changes what is to transpire based on your prayers.

You are citing great slabs of scripture, all of which say that God created, and most of which say that mankind will rule that creation. You are going to have to bridge the part between the scriptures you cite to the point you are contesting. None of these passages state or imply that God knows where each and every molecule in a star is, or that he is in control of each and every sunspot or knows the destiny of each and every single person. The passages  say that he created (and I agree) and they say that man will rule that creation (and I agree). You've related the passage to the point you are contesting.

Do you understand the point you are contesting?

Because I don’t think it is relevant to the conversation, I will not ask about you personally, but would you tell me what sect of Christianity or denomination believes that God does not know everything? I am not familiar with that thought.

I haven’t the slightest idea what you’re trying to get at. I believe God is omnipresent and omniscient, made all, knows all. Scripture seems to say this as well.

The particular train of thought is Open Theism.

https://www.opentheism.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism

I know you believe that, however we differ over the idea that scripture says that. It says specific things that shouldn't be extrapolated into omni-doctrines. Where the bible speaks, let it speak. Where it is silent, resist the urge to fill in the void.

And the reason why they wouldn't choose him?

The bible answers that.

They won't choose him because they are under the headship of adam, and suffered corruption because of that. Meaning they hate God and cannot please him. Because they don't want to. The gospel is the stench of death to them.

The ability to believe the gospel is a gift. It is not something we can force ourselves to believe.

I tried, and I couldn't. Neither can you. Nobody else can either.

Those who God does not choose to give the gift of the ability to believe the gospel do serve a purpose. They serve the purpose of showing that God is just, giving people what  they deserve, not more, not less. They are examples.

I'd bet that progress theologians and the more consistent molinists (Eh, not so much the molinists) believe there are all sorts of things God doesn't and can't know.

I don't disagree on the last sentence, that's why I provided all of the verses showing that God did indeed put everything in its place even down to us "But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered." It's very much not silent on these matters.

@CountofMonteCristo89 you just going to drop this unbiblical and illogical video and scoot?

Happens far too often.

You have actually disagreed with the last sentence within the same post you said you agreed with it.

The phrase "But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered" is from Matthew 10 where Jesus is in a private meeting with the 12 apostles. In this meeting he tells the 12 apostles (and them alone) that the hairs of their heads are numbered (not everybody else's). He said that for a very specific purpose, he was sending them out as sheep among the wolves.  These are the 12 closest people to Jesus and Jesus telling them that God is taking special care of them, shouldn't be extrapolated to the idea that God is taking special care of each and every person ever.

You didn't post a lot of "verses showing that God did indeed put everything in its place even down to us", you posted a lot of verses that you extrapolated to say things they did not.

“What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.”
??Matthew? ?10:27-31?

Context always matters, they were to proclaim this same thing to everyone (first bold)

and not even a tiny sparrow falls to the ground without God knowing it. (Second bold)

I’m not sure why your theology seeks to limit Gods knowledge but it has no bearing in scripture

I agree that the context does matter. For example, in context the message they were to speak from the rooftops is that "The kingdom of heaven has come near.", not that the hairs on people's heads were numbered.



Yes, sparrows do not fall to the ground without God knowing. That is a far far cry from God knowing it would happen in eternity past.  Let's not go extrapolating scripture into some doctrine we wish was there.




The line of thought doesn't seek to limit God's knowledge, rather it seeks to accurately understand what God has revealed about himself. For example, I believe that God answers prayers and changes what would transpire. This means that God did not know what we would pray until we pray it unless it is rather obvious, and he decides how he would respond in real time rather than eternity past. I believe God is still working.


Here is an example of how God makes decisions and an example of what he knows, and when he knows it:

1 Kings 22
19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

From this example of how God behaves in heaven, we can discern the following
-God didn't know how he was going to destroy Ahab and sought input from his servants
-God decided how to do it in real time (not in eternity past)
-God executed his decision by the means of a skilled and capable servant.


The example provided in scripture should trump human hypothesizing on the matter.

Are you a parent, by chance?

I ask this because, as a parent, I would often ask my children questions that I had already decided.

"What should we have for dinner, kids?"

"Order pizza!"

"Well, we could do that, but I have some ground beef I need to use up. What could we make with that?"

"Spaghetti!"

And I say okay, knowing full well we were having Spaghetti regardless. And this is just me as an earthly father. Surely our heavenly Father isn't showing a lack of knowledge by simply asking a question.

I am a parent. This interaction is most unlike a parent child interaction. The interaction described is a king on his throne seeking suggestions from his advisors.

Are you a supervisor...?

And yet it says this
Attached File


For the record what we were arguing prior to last comment was that you said God didn’t know the such and such of every star, which is why I said he knows every sparrow that falls and every hair that we have. So we’ve changed subjects here a little from the change of subject we were already on.

If God didn’t already have the future predestined according to his will then how could the prophets prophesy? I’m not convinced that God doesn’t have an infinite number of ways for things to play out but they all are known by him and set in place by him. But I don’t know. What I do know is that without foreknowledge then what are all the Old Testament prophecies, those of Israel or more importantly those foretelling Christ?

Rev 13:8 and its cousin, Rev 17:8.

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8  . . . And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world . . . [/i]

The question is: what existed before the foundation of the world, the book, the names, or Christ crucified.

I think we both agree that the book existed. I would say the names in the book were filled in over time, as the names can also be blotted out (Rev 3:5) which means the names aren't permanent based on on people's actions. And we both believe Christ was crucified in approximately AD 30.




I believe God makes the future according to his will, and we can act in concert with his will, are we can oppose him. His plan is to fill the earth with his glory as he has sworn (Num 14:21). I think he does have a plan, and he can complete his plan in a multitude of ways (as you say), and he has revealed specific details to the prophets. As to the infinitesimal details, such as you being destined for the kingdom in eternity past, and somebody else not destined, I think that remains open. I believe you have free will, and so also does God.

@ghengiskhabb

While doing some reading yesterday and mulling over this conversation at the same time I had a few thoughts

How does Open Theism approach these issues
- Figures such as Abraham, Isaac, Moses, David, Solomon, and more specifically what came to mind was Mary and Joseph were very much singled out for a purpose and fate by God, why not everyone else as well? It seems they had no free will as to these matters at least not entirely

- In the Lord's prayer, it's often prayed as "may your kingdom come, your will be done..." but that's not what the prayer says. It says
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

It seems God's will is very active and alive vs. our own as we acknowledge this in prayer

I suspect these people were selected based on characteristics they possessed, and were molded and shaped as necessary to complete the mission for which they have been assigned. I think any of them could have bowed out, but I suspect an angel can be very persuasive. Of your list, the ones fated by birth were Isaac, Moses, and Joseph, and the ones selected from many available candidates were Abraham, Solomon, and Mary. I do think some people were fated to get the task done, and those people were very very few across the sweep of history.

So yes, some (very few) had fewer and different choices available to them and were specifically trained up in order to bring about God's plan. However, this isn't unusual in human kingdoms and human families.




That is quite right. God is working on the earth. He has a goal, that is to fill the earth with his glory, and as the prayer acknowledges, the earth is his, the power is his, and the glory is his. His constant working means the earth isn't a windup clock that is fated to reach a destination where every little thing was exhaustively fated to happen. What we see is that God constantly work to bring about his goal.

However, as a worker within God's plan, you have a creative spark (like the creator) and can help to shape it. You have the king's ear in prayer and can influence details within your scope of responsibility.

This is no different than a loving parent to his multitude of children, and Christ describes God as "our father". Children get limited freedom and responsibility and those freedoms and responsibilities change with time. Some children are fated to do specific things (i.e. firstborns), and others have the freedom/responsibility to make their own way.

To me, the Bible is too full of obviously conditional language that implies a choice on our part for that kind of predestination to be possible. That being said, I don’t think believing in it rises to the level of heresy or a salvific issue.

This guys tickle me... the world view that God seeks and saves the lost has had a almost immeasurable impact on human history.

America was settled by people who risked everything based on reformed theology.

To shove it aside as damnable is just ignorant.

So basically you don't have a real answer from a biblical perspective. How many generations for Mary and Joseph were shown all convening where it did? She is prophesied in Isaiah, she is favored by God, the genealogies lead to her, if she's singled out and chosen why not everyone else?

I find no basis for the creative spark being one of free will. When Jesus speaks of what he was doing he says "“Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [h]the Father does, these things the Son also does in the same way. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

It's neither here nor there, you wont' change my mind and I wont' change yours. Certainly as I've said it seems choices are a part of life, but to me, and I find biblical basis for it, God's will is what is followed in this world. There may be different branches of decisions that lead to the same conclusion but they are still His will and His alone.

But why would God only do limited predestination? How does everyone else escape his will?

You asked me how I approached it, not "show me scripture". If you wanted a biblical perspective, that would be a different question.

To answer your question, Matthew has 41 generations from Abraham to Mary, and I think Luke is in the 50s.

I don't know where you think Mary is prophesied in Isaiah (it isn't Isaiah 7 as verses 15 and 16 were fulfilled approximately 700bc). To answer your question of why everybody is not singled out and chosen, the answer to your question is to reverse the question: Why would everybody be "singled out and chosen"? There is no good reason for everybody to be "singled out and chosen" and there is a fantastic reason for Mary to be singled out and chosen: the reason is that the time had fully come (Gal 4:4).


Jesus tells you what he had to do to his own will to accomplish that:

Luke 22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

Jesus wasn't doing his will, but submitted his free will to somebody else's will.


Your question begs another question: Why would he not do limited predestination?  The biblical record indicates that there are certain people assigned certain missions. Not everybody is called to be a prophet. Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc... had specific missions assigned to them and were specifically prepared for them and they knew what the mission was. Everybody else doesn't get that treatment. One of the problems with coming from America is that we are individualistic and think we are all special and attempt to read that back onto an ancient near eastern text. At the global level you won't escape his will, you will die just like everybody else. At the specific level, you would have to be in a relationship with God for him to have a will for you before you can attempt to escape it.

Predestination is Biblical as can be.  Some Christians don't like it, they refuse to accept we are all sinners that deserve hell, but God chooses some of us to save.





I could go on, but this is more than enough proof.

so did anyone actually watch the video this thread is about?  i havent seen it yet but have seen hundreds of fundamental baptist sermons.  calvinism teaches that JESUS did not die for everyone but that its only for a select few. john calvin popped up teaching it.

one last invitation in the bible is here. Revelation 22:17, KJV: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

we are bought with a price and that is the blood but if you do not accept the free gift and reject it then its of your own free will to reject it.

heres some more preaching pertaining to fundamental baptists. this right here is everything you need to know to truly be saved. im not posting links here due to what happened to some of my previous links but its on youtube called '' the bible way to heaven by pastor roger jimenez''.

my favorite documentaries by independent fundamental baptists your going to have no good luck at debunking...these are all still on youtube even though taken down by youtube staff that hate truth.  its tough to snub something when you have endless armies of youtube christians reuploading stuff 24/7 365.

''new world order bible versions'' proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the king james bible is the written and inspired word or GOD handed down thru the centuries. also disproves all forgeries in the most perfect court of law way your ever going to find. its a smack down. go watch it.

heres the one my sensors hate. ''marching to zion'' yes the one with pastors aaron thompson and steven anderson not the fake ones put out by the opposition and promoted in the search results by the zionist homo owner of youtube susan woljiki. proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that we, the believers in JESUS CHRIST are the elect of GOD and chosen few not judaism or zionism.

a couple others to check out later or debunk / attack me over next would be ''after the tribulation'' again featuring the same pastors our zionist sensors lose their nuts and bolts over.

and the documentary about how christians were fed to lions and hunted thru time evolving from the early anabaptists until today is called ''being baptist''.

the sad fact is the most hated pastor on youtube is the most hated and hidden by youtube sensors and the most reuploaded pastor on youtube period. haters gonna hate. his name is pastor steven l. andserson and id still be lost without chancing upon his sermons. my wife would too. i grew up in false churches and it was sick so by the grace of GOD i found truth being preached.

this pastor patrick boyle you mention used to go soul winning alongside all the pastors that i just mentioned so hes no stranger to me. hes actually a very successful soul winner in florida and stands up for CHRIST. hope he continues to do so. ive not heard any sermons from him in years.

Steven Anderson? the guy who says homosexuals should be killed via death penalty? The man who denies the holocaust? You're not making much of a case here with that and I would encourage you to see out better teachers. I can't understand calling someone a great teacher when they outright and publicly go against statements of Jesus' such as " But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” He got in hot water (rightfully so biblically) for praying for the death of Obama and whatever Bruce Jenner's name is now. Paul says in Romans "12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." I don't believe these men have read and studied the Bible outside of what fits their own biases and desires.

Yes Revelations 22:17 says what it says but John also says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." and "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." So can people "thirst" on their own or is it something God puts in the hearts of those He's chosen?

To be honest I feel with a lot of things in general the answer to questions are generally somewhere in between black and white (not all questions but many) so do I believe 100% in predestination? Not really. Do I believe 100% in free-will? No but far less than I do pre-destination. However things such as I what I read in my reading this morning like "24 The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:" and "26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations." as I read through Isaiah 14 certainly seem to point toward an over-arching purpose and plan of God not just free will all willy nilly.

I have thought about this for decades, and my relationship with my own son made me look at this in a different light. Forgive me in advance for using something personal to attempt to make a point.

My son is my firstborn, and when he was born it seemed as if I was born at the same time. Nothing was the same for me, and it was great seeing the world through his eyes as he grew up.

Believing as I did that my role as a father to him and my daughters took precedence over my personal interests, I put my energy into raising them up to be strong, confident, and Christian, but somewhere along the way my son decided that I was a terrible father and has almost cut off contact with me except for very special occasions. He has never said why, he never accused me of anything, he just has little to no desire for any relationship with me. My daughters have no idea why he feels this way either.

For years I made attempts to re-establish a relationship with him with no success. As I thought about this, I wondered if I could do something to make him come back, but as I was thinking about it, I decided that I would rather him stay away by his own choice than make him spend time with me. What joy would I receive if someone was forced to endure my company, or forced to tell me that they love me? None. The joy comes from a relationship that is freely chosen by the other person because that person wants to spend time with you.

I believe our relationship with God is the same way. He loves each of us very much, and some will freely accept that love and give that love back to Him. Others will ignore the love offered, and God will not make them love Him. What joy would God get from being loved by what would be essentially automatons with no free will, who are not capable of doing anything other than simply saying what has been put into them to say. That would be as joyless and empty for Him as would us commanding Siri to tell us it loves us.

Even the angels have free will as Satan and the fallen angels have clearly demonstrated.

Regarding the verses that give proof to predestination and other verses which say "let all who hears come", I don't know the meeting point between them but there is one. I accept both points as presented in the Bible to be true, regardless of how opposite they seem even after years of study. I have no problem with that stance, because after being a Christian for almost 50 years, I continually realize how little I have learned in that time. God shows me something new pretty much every day.

What I know for sure is, I am His, He is mine. And one other thing I know to be true, my son and I will be reconciled either in this life or the life to come, and for me that has to be enough.

Finally got around to listening to this. This guy thinks he knows more than he does. A dose of humility is needed about an issue that has been debated by Bible scholars for longer than he has been alive. There are strong arguments for both sides and for them.to somehow coexist in a way that we don't fully understand. I know that my faith is in Jesus Christ and I'm told that will be sufficient. I'm also told to spread the Gospel and that God will sort out who is saved and who is not.

This preacher assumes he "knows" the right answer on how God deals with His creation and that a Calvin's view of predestination is damnable heresy, despite the brilliant minds on both sides of the argument.  He presumes to much about his own wisdom.

I agree.

It’s one thing to say “I’m not sure about this” and another to judge and damn another hell, ignoring all of the grace shown in the Bible and that clearly having bad theology if you deem it so is certainly not sending a man to hell.

Pride and hate can. Prayerfully and thankfully grace covers many sins.