User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 7:41:53 PM EDT
Boeing's moves to automate its manufacturing processes and streamline the quality assurance process for its airplanes has sparked discussions with union officials over the effect on jobs.
The controversy came to light in the current issue of Aero Mechanic the newspaper published by the International Association of Machinists' District 751, which represents Boeing assembly workers and in The Seattle Times. Union leaders are concerned about a Boeing campaign known as "Quality Transformation," which relies on automated processes such as robotic riveting and precision machining to cut down on manufacturing defects. Boeing says such processes make airplane assembly more "mistake-proof."  Aero Mechanic said Boeing laid out its plans and their potential effect on quality-assurance jobs in November. "Per the PowerPoint Boeing presented to our union, Boeing estimates their plan will impact 451 QA jobs next year and potentially a similar amount in 2020," the newspaper reported. "This will not only place a heavier burden on our mechanics but will also eliminate the second set of eyes on thousands of work packages." Boeing currently has more than 3,000 quality inspectors, The Seattle Times said.  Mechanic and Machine: Boeing's Advanced Manufacturing Improves 777 Assembly During a series of meetings last month, Machinists Union District 751 asked its members to document occasions when they were discouraged from reporting problems on the assembly floor. "The company is taking advantage of QA and manufacturing working together essentially masking defects and coming back later with a 'risk assessment process' to eliminate inspections where there were no documented defects," the Aero Mechanic report claimed. The union calls its counter-campaign "Not OK to Cut QA." More of the story at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/boeing-machinists-union-tussle-over-223245244.html |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 7:49:30 PM EDT
[#1]
you mean people are surprised that robotics are advancing and taking more and more jobs?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:05:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Another lifetime I was IAM and did inspection work on small engines.
Tough union. This will be difficult to say the least. They will strike. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:07:38 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another lifetime I was IAM and did inspection work on small engines. Tough union. This will be difficult to say the least. They will strike. Go get another job |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:09:16 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you mean people are surprised that robotics are advancing and taking more and more jobs? But yeah, obviously some operators stick around, but every time its half machine/half human labor, the human portion gets swallowed up in due time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:12:03 PM EDT
[#5]
...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:14:50 PM EDT
[#6]
I guess nobody told the union that automation doesn't replace jobs. I've been told that here over and over again, these huge companies invest assloads of money in automation and don't intend to get rid of anyone. Totally true.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:19:28 PM EDT
[#7]
... gonna get some flack for this but, quality control inspections are a non value added process
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:21:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Go learn robotics on the companies dime (assuming they offer money for training). Then your job will still be there when others are phased out.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:22:39 PM EDT
[#9]
why are they sticking with rivits?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:24:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Go learn robotics on the companies dime (assuming they offer money for training). Then your job will still be there when others are phased out. Perhaps the defining feature of American blue collar work in the last 40 years is companies avoiding assuming training costs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:25:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... gonna get some flack for this but, quality control inspections are a non value added process < Has worked in Field Issues/Product Assurance - a position that literally should not exist. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:26:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... gonna get some flack for this but, quality control inspections are a non value added process I’m a QE btw 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:26:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Are these the same unions that support Democrats that want open borders to let more illegal aliens in to take American's jobs?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:27:38 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Go learn robotics on the companies dime (assuming they offer money for training). Then your job will still be there when others are phased out. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:29:11 PM EDT
[#15]
In just about any serious discussion about quality, it always comes back to it being faster, cheaper, and more fool proof to build quality in vs. trying to catch defects during inspection. It doesn't matter what industry you are talking about, that universally applies. In some operations robots can significantly reduce variation in assembly which can lead to quality issues.
I think manufacturing jobs are of huge importance to our society and economy, but to keep pace with market expectations for quality, price, etc. our labor has to adapt as well. Simply doing it the way we've always done it to protect jobs that we've always had is not a sustainable position to take. If our manufacturing industry doesn't do it, someone else will and then all of the jobs, not just certain departments like QA could be at risk. For anyone thinking of going into a manufacturing career, it is a great way to make a living but do yourself a favor and make sure you have skills that make you irreplaceable. Simply being someone to put tab A into slob B and tighten to spec won't cut it anymore. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:31:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Robots are not perfect either. Parts wear out, they can forget their position, crash etc.
Automation is nothing new, you either adapt or become obsolete. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:37:55 PM EDT
[#17]
Unions still think that businesses exist to provide jobs instead of make money.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:38:05 PM EDT
[#18]
Hopefully the robots will eventually replace all of the union employees.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:42:26 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is why unions are terrible. Go get another job |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:46:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Use this one simple trick
1-800-ROBOTUNION Support the right for Robots to strike. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:47:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are these the same unions that support Democrats that want open borders to let more illegal aliens in to take American's jobs? |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:48:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unions still think that businesses exist to provide jobs instead of make money. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:55:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt Boeing (and its competitors) are going to build their own robotics. Those robots are German. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 8:58:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wrong. Kuka is now Chinese. Bought by Midea a couple of years ago. That was a sad day, much outrage in Deutschland. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I doubt Boeing (and its competitors) are going to build their own robotics. Those robots are German. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 9:03:43 PM EDT
[#25]
This is the company that farmed out everything to overseas contractors and couldn't bring the 787 in anywhere near on time because it couldn't buy rivets in the US.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 9:05:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hopefully the robots will eventually replace all of the union employees. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 9:11:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
why are they sticking with rivits? |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 9:15:54 PM EDT
[#28]
This has serious implications for union bosses. There won't be enormous pensions for them to "manage".
j/k. It's hard to see a downside if its bad for unions.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 9:24:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah I should totally lose my job because you don’t like unions, I’m not a big union supporter but I happen to work somewhere with a union. I work on the 777x wings, gantries or robots do most of the drilling but there is plenty of manual work to do. Also getting rid of QA is retarded. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hopefully the robots will eventually replace all of the union employees. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 9:29:51 PM EDT
[#30]
Perfect example of unions being an anchor on American manufacturing.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 9:46:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Making processes capable and getting rid of inspectors is a good idea. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hopefully the robots will eventually replace all of the union employees. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2019 10:22:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn right, except if we shipped every defect our techs find to the customer I’m not sure we’d still be in business. Technically not “value added” but without QA many facilities would fall flat. I’m a QE btw |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2019 1:19:05 AM EDT
[#33]
This was handwriting on the wall 20 years ago.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2019 2:06:01 AM EDT
[#34]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2019 2:47:11 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... gonna get some flack for this but, quality control inspections are a non value added process |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2019 4:03:51 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Leeches think like that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Unions still think that businesses exist to provide jobs instead of make money. Quoted:
This is the company that farmed out everything to overseas contractors and couldn't bring the 787 in anywhere near on time because it couldn't buy rivets in the US. Never mind that the 787 has far fewer rivets than any of the legacy designs. Certainly had nothing to do with planning & rosey presumptions about outsource mfg outcomes. Quoted:
This has serious implications for union bosses. There won't be enormous pensions for them to "manage". j/k. It's hard to see a downside if its bad for unions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2019 12:48:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck getting customers to buy your $100 million product that hasn't been inspected. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
... gonna get some flack for this but, quality control inspections are a non value added process 
Welcome to 1950.... |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2019 12:52:53 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck getting customers to buy your $100 million product that hasn't been inspected. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
... gonna get some flack for this but, quality control inspections are a non value added process |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2019 1:23:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Boeing doesn't even use drawings anymore, at least not for Aerospace. Their CAD models have layers for dimensions and tolerancing. The shop uses that to directly program the mills. Not having a drawing with 3 traditional views to be used when making and inspecting parts freaks me out.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 4:34:21 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pension went away in 2016. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This has serious implications for union bosses. There won't be enormous pensions for them to "manage". j/k. It's hard to see a downside if its bad for unions. He basically stuck both feet in his mouth. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 4:43:59 AM EDT
[#41]
You can't "Inspect In" Quality.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 5:10:51 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can't "Inspect In" Quality. Granted, all my QA experience is in Army aviation. However, the corollary is there. Just yesterday I caught one of the Joes performing a task without even looking at it in the manual...he had been shown how to do it, or assisted in performing the task before. When I asked about the torque required on the force gauge to close the clamp on the shroud he was installing, I got the "deer in the headlights" look, with the line "there is no torque, I've NEVER used a force gauge when installing this part!". My reply: "that just tells me that you haven't even looked at the task in the IETM." 
To say that QA is completely unnecessary is disingenuous, even if we are talking about robotics. One misplaced decimal point in the manufacturing program and you have an end product that does not meet tolerances. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 5:56:52 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's not how quality control works. QA is the line between Joe having a bad day and not paying attention to his work, or Jim who has 30 years' experience and "knows how to do his job like the back of his hand" and dosen't think he needs to follow the manual, and the airplane that you are riding in falling out of the sky. Granted, all my QA experience is in Army aviation. However, the corollary is there. Just yesterday I caught one of the Joes performing a task without even looking at it in the manual...he had been shown how to do it, or assisted in performing the task before. When I asked about the torque required on the force gauge to close the clamp on the shroud he was installing, I got the "deer in the headlights" look, with the line "there is no torque, I've NEVER used a force gauge when installing this part!". My reply: "that just tells me that you haven't even looked at the task in the IETM."
To say that QA is completely unnecessary is disingenuous, even if we are talking about robotics. One misplaced decimal point in the manufacturing program and you have an end product that does not meet tolerances. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You can't "Inspect In" Quality. Granted, all my QA experience is in Army aviation. However, the corollary is there. Just yesterday I caught one of the Joes performing a task without even looking at it in the manual...he had been shown how to do it, or assisted in performing the task before. When I asked about the torque required on the force gauge to close the clamp on the shroud he was installing, I got the "deer in the headlights" look, with the line "there is no torque, I've NEVER used a force gauge when installing this part!". My reply: "that just tells me that you haven't even looked at the task in the IETM."
To say that QA is completely unnecessary is disingenuous, even if we are talking about robotics. One misplaced decimal point in the manufacturing program and you have an end product that does not meet tolerances. Just suffice it to say that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, and I have a WHOLE lot more Quality experience than you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 5:57:01 AM EDT
[#44]
What some here do not seem to understand is robots do not go to work out of the box. They need specialized tooling/fixtures made for their 'heads' for each operation, then they need to be programed for every movement (the robot manufactures cannot provide this). So the repetitive jobs they replace still need new hires (people) for programing and fixture designing and making. Then they need lots of maintenance along with constant adjustments to program...but can look really cool on a 30 second video
 . But anyone who works with daily knows the other side of the coin.
When you are using a robot to put a part on a pin on a Mori Seki CNC mill for example 1/1000 of an inch if off location can mean it drops the part and causes a 'fault' that someone has to come over and reset. Things like temperature can effect them as things like the floor can move a few thousandths when temps change outside or a large door in the shop is opened, again throwing them off, so factories must have climate control including A/C when doing precision placing of precision parts. So it's not always practical for companies that don't have deep pockets to use them in every instance (sometimes you'll never get your investment back) and you don't just buy one, unbox it and let it go to work as there is a lot more involved in their use then some might think. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 6:08:26 AM EDT
[#45]
Fuck the unions. Im currently sitting on a job with union pipefitters and ironworkers 6 months behind schedule. Laziest pieces of trash ive ever had to work with in my life. All they do is bitch and steal tools.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 6:45:43 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess nobody told the union that automation doesn't replace jobs. I've been told that here over and over again, these huge companies invest assloads of money in automation and don't intend to get rid of anyone. Totally true. what dumb Luddites always forget is that it’s people that create jobs, not robots, soon these people will be finding and creating new avaneues for making money off other people. Take a look at the service sector for where people have been going to in the last several decades, we are all switching away to a service sector (aka first world problem solving jobs) more and more as automation frees us from more and more physical and mundane jobs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 7:05:00 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
why are they sticking with rivits? Kharn |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 7:26:59 AM EDT
[#48]
I would like to know about the QA program for the company that designed and manufactured these robots. You know, for program comparisons.
If a robot manufacturing company finds QA is important in their process why wouldn't the end user/customer? That is an assumption that the robot company uses a QA program for it's own manufacturing and then uses it as a selling point for customers to reduce their inspection points cause like, it's a robot so... Jeep JL frames were welded by a robot and they are breaking the front track bar brackets. At least you can pull over in a Jeep. An aircraft? not so much. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 8:08:32 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another lifetime I was IAM and did inspection work on small engines. Tough union. This will be difficult to say the least. They will strike. When a machine screws up a hole, it's 100 holes, either wrong size or wrong location. Both of which are because the person operating the machine did not follow procedures. I'd rather have machines drilling. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2019 8:08:53 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would like to know about the QA program for the company that designed and manufactured these robots. You know, for program comparisons. If a robot manufacturing company finds QA is important in their process why wouldn't the end user/customer? That is an assumption that the robot company uses a QA program for it's own manufacturing and then uses it as a selling point for customers to reduce their inspection points cause like, it's a robot so... Jeep JL frames were welded by a robot and they are breaking the front track bar brackets. At least you can pull over in a Jeep. An aircraft? not so much. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
