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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:17:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were never really formidable, just numerous. Numbers don't equal formidable. Someone needs to tell China that. 
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:17:53 PM EDT
[#2]
F18 got the first A2A kill I know that. It was getting the same "never gonna work this plane sucks" you see guys post about the F35 now
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:22:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Should have never taken out Saddam.
He was a much needed counterpoint to Iran in that region, and kept the retards that make up that country in check. Sometimes, you need a brutal dictator. Freedom doesn't apply the whole world over - that's what makes it so special. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:24:44 PM EDT
[#4]
Good enough to conquer Kuwait but not good enough to take down Iran.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:29:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone needs to tell China that. Well there is quantity and then there is quantity... Problem is eventually you do run out of meat shields at some point... The Chinese military is really not all that sophisticated or capable when compared to what amounts to the world's only 1st world military .. At this point and time you can't really call the British or French armed forces first world militaries and let's be honest the Royal Navy hasn't ruled the seas about 4 generations and some change. I am not saying they do not have a very capable military but neither of them are going to be flexing global muscle like we do. Hell I am not even certain how long we can continue to flex that muscle if we keep traveling the path we are on culturally and economically. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:30:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Should have never taken out Saddam. He was a much needed counterpoint to Iran in that region, and kept the retards that make up that country in check. Sometimes, you need a brutal dictator. Freedom doesn't apply the whole world over - that's what makes it so special. I agree and have said this for a long time now. We seriously created our problems in the middle east starting with the Shah and keeping him in power. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:37:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good enough to conquer Kuwait but not good enough to take down Iran. Two large middle eastern armies with similar equipment and similar doctrines. They best they could manage was fighting to a stalemate in the end though and they even resorted to chemical warfare. If you think about it they re fought WWI for a lot of intents and purposes ... Lots of static lines very few of either sides offensive actions produced any tangible results . The Iran / Iraq war also led Saddam to try the invasion of Kuwait when he could not bully his way to a diplomatic ending that worked for him. Iraq owed Kuwait $14 Billion thanks to the war that went nowhere and Kuwait wanted their money , Iraq couldn't pay accused Kuwait of stealing oil via slant drilling .. All of it ended up leading to the invasion of Kuwait and the 1990 oil price shock.. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:38:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Should have never taken out Saddam. He was a much needed counterpoint to Iran in that region, and kept the retards that make up that country in check. Sometimes, you need a brutal dictator. Freedom doesn't apply the whole world over - that's what makes it so special. The Iraq-Iran war was a collision of assholes, and neither side really looks all that competent in retrospect. The Iranians had purged their military of a great deal of their best, secular, officers, and lost the tech support they needed for their toys. Iraq had a shitty leadership structure, mostly because Saddam had an unstable internal political situation. Saddam was basically the Tito of the middle east. Liberals always want to give socialism another chance, to get it right. Neoconservatives always want to play interventionalist games in the Middle East, and think they'll get it right this time. Link removed: Do not link or embed to Amazon or other retail sites. DV8 |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:43:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's amazing how fragmented and tribal the muslim people are despite having the same religion, if they actually united into a modern day caliphate they'd be incredibly dangerous. Meh... they’d be incredibly dangerous to themselves. They’d puff their chests and get bitch slapped again. They have no means to project power past their sand box and would be decimated if they tried. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:44:08 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Saddam was basically the Tito of the middle east. Liberals always want to give socialism another chance, to get it right. Neoconservatives always want to play interventionalist games in the Middle East, and think they'll get it right this time. Link removed: Do not link or embed to Amazon or other retail sites. DV8 You are right about Saddam love or hate the guy he was the glue that kept Iraq mostly a functional state as he was a secular dictator doing what dictators do . I will say this we seriously fucked up by not keeping the Shah in power , most of our woes in the middle east are because when did not intervene and support the Shah when we should have thanks to fuckstick Jimmy Carter. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:02:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are right about Saddam love or hate the guy he was the glue that kept Iraq mostly a functional state as he was a secular dictator doing what dictators do . I will say this we seriously fucked up by not keeping the Shah in power , most of our woes in the middle east are because when did not intervene and support the Shah when we should have thanks to fuckstick Jimmy Carter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Saddam was basically the Tito of the middle east. Liberals always want to give socialism another chance, to get it right. Neoconservatives always want to play interventionalist games in the Middle East, and think they'll get it right this time. www.amazon.com/dp/B07KKLSMJH You are right about Saddam love or hate the guy he was the glue that kept Iraq mostly a functional state as he was a secular dictator doing what dictators do . I will say this we seriously fucked up by not keeping the Shah in power , most of our woes in the middle east are because when did not intervene and support the Shah when we should have thanks to fuckstick Jimmy Carter. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:16:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm honestly not sure that we could have headed off the 1979 revolution. If we had whacked Khomeini in 1977 or so, it might have delayed things a little. Jimmy Carter is still a fuckstick though. There was still support within Iran for the Shah in the right places, I think we could have steered it off. It really wasn't about democracy it was about having our guy in which ultimately what you want in a place like that. Iran , Iraq , Jordan all countries ruled by a strong man. You just want the strong man to be the guy you have influence with. I have said many time I do not give one fuck about whether other nations ever democracy in fact I will go so far as to say democracy is a very bad thing ... Democracy is a breeding ground for the worst kind of totalitarians as a rule. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:37:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There was still support within Iran for the Shah in the right places, I think we could have steered it off. It really wasn't about democracy it was about having our guy in which ultimately what you want in a place like that. Iran , Iraq , Jordan all countries ruled by a strong man. You just want the strong man to be the guy you have influence with. I have said many time I do not give one fuck about whether other nations ever democracy in fact I will go so far as to say democracy is a very bad thing ... Democracy is a breeding ground for the worst kind of totalitarians as a rule. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm honestly not sure that we could have headed off the 1979 revolution. If we had whacked Khomeini in 1977 or so, it might have delayed things a little. Jimmy Carter is still a fuckstick though. There was still support within Iran for the Shah in the right places, I think we could have steered it off. It really wasn't about democracy it was about having our guy in which ultimately what you want in a place like that. Iran , Iraq , Jordan all countries ruled by a strong man. You just want the strong man to be the guy you have influence with. I have said many time I do not give one fuck about whether other nations ever democracy in fact I will go so far as to say democracy is a very bad thing ... Democracy is a breeding ground for the worst kind of totalitarians as a rule. When did we stop getting to put links to books in? Armies of Sand is a pretty good analysis of why the Iran-Iraq war was such a disaster of leadership. I don't see a stickied thread or a change to the CoC, and I would think disabling the amazon tool would be sort of a first step there? |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:38:22 PM EDT
[#14]
We expected losses in the 10s of thousands.
Obviously that didn't happen. There was an Egyptian general that was asked how they got annihilated by the Israelis. He said something like, "We trained to look good on the streets of Cairo. They trained to fight in the desert." Seems to be a the thing for the Arabs. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 3:11:54 PM EDT
[#15]
We honestly didn't know how much we overmatched their army, so IRR officers were getting letters alerting them to the possibility of being recalled to duty (my Dad got one, he'd retired three or four years previously, his company had enough retired service members that they established a policy that they would pay the differential between their company salary and military pay if they got recalled). There wasn't a lot of knowledge on how weak Arab armies were at the time, most military members had never dealt with them. Plus, there were all sorts of claims about our equipment failing due to the fine dust over there overwhelming the air filters on tanks and helicopters. Of course, the MSM trumpeted any such claims to push the idea that we were going to suffer casualties not seen since World War II.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 3:29:57 PM EDT
[#16]
edit: Beat
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Posted: 2/26/2021 3:37:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rate #4 in the coaches poll. Their strength-of-schedule sucked thoufht |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 3:40:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Numbers never equaled capability. This is what happened when Saddam's troops met a capable military. Highway of Death https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HqxoAj2DsHc/VyoL7WzV83I/AAAAAAABNRU/DOpwjP5xFK4/highway-of-death-iraq-116.jpg?imgmax=1600 I drive 80 everyday to work. They're building a giant industrial park and a rail system up near Camp Behuring. The old highway is also being ripped up and repaved. There are still LOTS of UXO out in the sand dunes, and we're told to not go out there, but the Kuwaitis go camping out there for weeks during the winter months with no issues. The burned out husks of vehicles have also been cleaned up. The ones that are up there now are just from the fuckhead kuwaitis driving like jackasses and crashing into shit at 110 mph. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 4:34:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm honestly not sure either way on it. The shah was old and weak, and had spent a lot of time cutting down the possible secular competition. I'm not sure we could have kept him in power. When did we stop getting to put links to books in? Armies of Sand is a pretty good analysis of why the Iran-Iraq war was such a disaster of leadership. I don't see a stickied thread or a change to the CoC, and I would think disabling the amazon tool would be sort of a first step there? No kidding. I realize Amazon sucks but this will put a serious dent in some of the deal threads. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 4:38:58 PM EDT
[#20]
They had a lot of men and a lot of toys from foreign governments. So about as good as a large, shithole military can be.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 5:34:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When your army consists of poor conscripts that hate you, who are starving but smart enough to know they don't have a prayer to win a battle, that's what happens. A couple Kurdish boys used to work for me. Pawan said they forced his dad and neighbors to join the army. Not long after they all ran back home and kept their weapons. It sounded like they had a belt fed machine gun in their closet. 
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Posted: 2/26/2021 5:58:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No kidding. I realize Amazon sucks but this will put a serious dent in some of the deal threads. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm honestly not sure either way on it. The shah was old and weak, and had spent a lot of time cutting down the possible secular competition. I'm not sure we could have kept him in power. When did we stop getting to put links to books in? Armies of Sand is a pretty good analysis of why the Iran-Iraq war was such a disaster of leadership. I don't see a stickied thread or a change to the CoC, and I would think disabling the amazon tool would be sort of a first step there? No kidding. I realize Amazon sucks but this will put a serious dent in some of the deal threads. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 6:00:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @DV8 can you give us some guidance here? I did use the admittedly somewhat poor site search function to look for more info on the 3rd party/amazon link ban. My apologies for missing it, but I don't think I'm the only one. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 7:40:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @DV8 can you give us some guidance here? I did use the admittedly somewhat poor site search function to look for more info on the 3rd party/amazon link ban. My apologies for missing it, but I don't think I'm the only one. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm honestly not sure either way on it. The shah was old and weak, and had spent a lot of time cutting down the possible secular competition. I'm not sure we could have kept him in power. When did we stop getting to put links to books in? Armies of Sand is a pretty good analysis of why the Iran-Iraq war was such a disaster of leadership. I don't see a stickied thread or a change to the CoC, and I would think disabling the amazon tool would be sort of a first step there? No kidding. I realize Amazon sucks but this will put a serious dent in some of the deal threads. The link was non working, couldn’t tell where the link went. Feel free to post a working link to the book. My bad. - DV8 |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 7:45:21 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I'm confused on what happened Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @DV8 can you give us some guidance here? I did use the admittedly somewhat poor site search function to look for more info on the 3rd party/amazon link ban. My apologies for missing it, but I don't think I'm the only one. Here's a link to Armies of Sand, which goes into great detail about why both sides of the Iraq-Iran war sucked, as well as explaining parts of why arab militaries tend to punch below their on paper weight class: |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 7:48:26 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Apparently the link didn't come through for DV8, and this was just a one off where I hadn't explained what the link was and it could have been spam, etc. We're good, everything is cool. Here's a link to Armies of Sand, which goes into great detail about why both sides of the Iraq-Iran war sucked, as well as explaining parts of why arab militaries tend to punch below their on paper weight class: www.amazon.com/dp/B07KKLSMJH Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: @DV8 can you give us some guidance here? I did use the admittedly somewhat poor site search function to look for more info on the 3rd party/amazon link ban. My apologies for missing it, but I don't think I'm the only one. Here's a link to Armies of Sand, which goes into great detail about why both sides of the Iraq-Iran war sucked, as well as explaining parts of why arab militaries tend to punch below their on paper weight class: www.amazon.com/dp/B07KKLSMJH 
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Posted: 2/26/2021 8:06:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The link was non working, couldn't tell where the link went. Feel free to post a working link to the book. My bad. - DV8 |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 8:07:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Apparently the link didn't come through for DV8, and this was just a one off where I hadn't explained what the link was and it could have been spam, etc. We're good, everything is cool. Here's a link to Armies of Sand, which goes into great detail about why both sides of the Iraq-Iran war sucked, as well as explaining parts of why arab militaries tend to punch below their on paper weight class: www.amazon.com/dp/B07KKLSMJH |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 8:11:33 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see now. I thought there was some strange rule change I missed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Apparently the link didn't come through for DV8, and this was just a one off where I hadn't explained what the link was and it could have been spam, etc. We're good, everything is cool. Here's a link to Armies of Sand, which goes into great detail about why both sides of the Iraq-Iran war sucked, as well as explaining parts of why arab militaries tend to punch below their on paper weight class: www.amazon.com/dp/B07KKLSMJH
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Posted: 2/26/2021 8:13:04 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would probably save me a non-significant amount of money if links to stuff for sale were banned. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 9:04:17 PM EDT
[#31]
Yep, way back then my coworkers were gloom and doom, 'I heard on the news that 100,000 body bags were ordered, Saddam has 100,000 plus troops Super Troops entrenched in the desert'.
My reply was, 'That's Great', time to load up the B-52's and carpet bomb the shit out of them, first we send in Special Forces to take out their radar systems, I was laughed at. That was well executed, both main radar sites were destroyed simultaneously, leading Iraq to think it was a spontaneous outage. There is nowhere to his in the desert. Still wish Bush would have fired a rifle from the balcony of the White House, couldn't trust Dick with one! |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 10:31:03 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were never really formidable, just numerous. Numbers don't equal formidable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Was his military still pretty formidable even after the war with Iran? They were never really formidable, just numerous. Numbers don't equal formidable. That’s what Hilter thought... |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 10:39:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The MSM built them up telling us that the "elite" Republican Guard was going to be the most formidable opponent we have ever faced. US troops were in for a long protracted battle taking casualties in the thousands. Of course they were lying as when we started driving into Iraq at the start of the war they were surrendering enmass. The news media wanted lots of US casualties. Yep. I remember reading all that bs as a teenager. At the time, it did make me wonder if there could be truth to it. We all know what happened and from then on I have never believed the “news” or under estimated just how much the press hates the USA. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:01:18 PM EDT
[#34]
Saddam's army was an example of what we would gave faced from the Warsaw Pact. Half trained conscripts that didn't want to be there. The entire doctrine, mindset, and operational structure of the Iraqi military was what the ComBloc was. It showed that if WWIII kicked off, Ivan and his Eastern Bloc Commie Cronies would have had the floor wiped with 'em due to the West's better trained professional military. You had officers in the Red Army and in the Iraqi Army doing what E4s did in the US Military. This was because conscription meant you didn't have motivated people in uniform. They were all short timing it until release day.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:14:48 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it also helps to keep in mind that the Iraqis had that the “lesser tier” “monkey models”, and not the full capability Soviet/Warsaw Pact stuff. T-72 fire control is already pretty primitive, so M1s were always going to tear ass through Iraqi formations in ways that they wouldn’t be able to vs the Soviet/WP forces. I remember more recent Russian (trying to downplay the Abrams tanks a bit) media stating that the Iraqis were using export-model tank ammo from the early 70s. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:17:29 PM EDT
[#36]
 I had that poster hanging in my room. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:18:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was stationed at NAS Sigonella during DS/DS. We were a stopping point for a lot of forces heading to the Gulf. The amount of air power that passed through our airfield was awe inspiring. The Berlin Wall was down and Bush Sr. was getting ready to pull the trigger on force reductions in Europe about the time Sadam decided to get froggy. Equipment that had been stockpiled and forces designated to stop the Soviets suddenly were available and we unleashed it on the Iraqi military. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:  Fucking AI had just come off Active Duty (Army) and was in graduate school, teaching. A lot of my students were NG or Reserve and were panicking over the bloodbath/draft everyone predictions the press was trumpeting. So I got a bunch of them together, went to the pub and we got beer, then watched the news. You could see the equipment being loaded for airlift. I asked them "do you see any equipment like you use? No? They're not taking your busted ass shit to war. Relax. I prevented about a dozen desertions that evening.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:20:47 PM EDT
[#38]
The Leftist media kept warning us that the "Elite Republican Guard" were going to send our pathetic troops home in thousands of body bags.
Yeah, that didn't happen. We pushed their shit in on camera for the world to watch. The MSM were salivating over our potential defeat. Traitorous snakes. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:21:02 PM EDT
[#39]
They were huge, I think easily the biggest in the Middle East.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:24:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From what I remember, it was pretty well prepared because we armed them. I believe the Reagan Administration made sure Saddam was armed to the teeth. Good Article This is nothing new... I had a very good paperback named 'The Death Lobby' about the Iraq trade. European countries were big suppliers, specifically France. The USSR was obviously a big player but Saddam did not want ything to do with the geopolitical strings (which came with any deals) and so they had to shop with hard cash. He saw Iraq as an independent country with its own ambitions, hence the kit built T-72s & various home-grown civil engineering projects. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:26:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember more recent Russian (trying to downplay the Abrams tanks a bit) media stating that the Iraqis were using export-model tank ammo from the early 70s. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:31:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a very good paperback named 'The Death Lobby' about the Iraq trade. European countries were big suppliers, specifically France. The USSR was obviously a big player but Saddam did not want ything to do with the geopolitical strings (which came with any deals) and so they had to shop with hard cash. He saw Iraq as an independent country with its own ambitions, hence the kit built T-72s & various home-grown civil engineering projects. Saddam also tried to create another Union of Arab Republics which he of course would have been the leader of. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:33:52 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a very good paperback named 'The Death Lobby' about the Iraq trade. European countries were big suppliers, specifically France. The USSR was obviously a big player but Saddam did not want ything to do with the geopolitical strings (which came with any deals) and so they had to shop with hard cash. He saw Iraq as an independent country with its own ambitions, hence the kit built T-72s & various home-grown civil engineering projects. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: From what I remember, it was pretty well prepared because we armed them. I believe the Reagan Administration made sure Saddam was armed to the teeth. Good Article This is nothing new... I had a very good paperback named 'The Death Lobby' about the Iraq trade. European countries were big suppliers, specifically France. The USSR was obviously a big player but Saddam did not want ything to do with the geopolitical strings (which came with any deals) and so they had to shop with hard cash. He saw Iraq as an independent country with its own ambitions, hence the kit built T-72s & various home-grown civil engineering projects. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:35:19 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Saddam also tried to create another Union of Arab Republics which he of course would have been the leader of. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 11:42:36 PM EDT
[#45]
The buddy of a friend of mine at the time was a navigator on an Intruder that was shot down over the Persian Gulf. His body washed up on the shore a few weeks after the end of the war. That was half a lifetime ago--30 years.
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Posted: 2/27/2021 12:00:59 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Should have never taken out Saddam. He was a much needed counterpoint to Iran in that region, and kept the retards that make up that country in check. Sometimes, you need a brutal dictator. Freedom doesn't apply the whole world over - that's what makes it so special. Bush Jr.: But he disrespected my daddy, and Dick told me we had to do to it. |
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Posted: 2/27/2021 7:32:59 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Saddam's army was an example of what we would gave faced from the Warsaw Pact. Half trained conscripts that didn't want to be there. The entire doctrine, mindset, and operational structure of the Iraqi military was what the ComBloc was. It showed that if WWIII kicked off, Ivan and his Eastern Bloc Commie Cronies would have had the floor wiped with 'em due to the West's better trained professional military. You had officers in the Red Army and in the Iraqi Army doing what E4s did in the US Military. This was because conscription meant you didn't have motivated people in uniform. They were all short timing it until release day. Add in the class differences between officers. A lower ranking officer DID NOT do anything to point out his superiors failures/oversights. They and their families would be destroyed socially and economically if they did. |
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Posted: 2/27/2021 11:10:40 AM EDT
[#48]
The non Republican Guard soldiers conscripted and poorly trained.
Republican Guard slightly better and overrated. He may have the numbers but equipment, tactics and training are left to be desired. One of the biggest failures of the Iran-iraq war, couldn't capitalize the early advancement into Iran and turned into a long war of attrition. |
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Posted: 2/27/2021 11:20:07 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The non Republican Guard soldiers conscripted and poorly trained. Republican Guard slightly better and overrated. He may have the numbers but equipment, tactics and training are left to be desired. One of the biggest failures of the Iran-iraq war, couldn't capitalize the early advancement into Iran and turned into a long war of attrition. Back in 2004 during my first contract in Iraq , we had an Iraqi on the payroll who had been an officer in the Iraqi Army . He told me interesting stories about their procurement. Basically he had said that they had minister of machine guns for instance or rifles who was responsible for buying said weapons, if they did not buy all the weapons they were supposed to then they would be punished. It was also one of the reasons there is such a mix of weaponry , they purchased from whom and where they could. |
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Posted: 2/27/2021 11:27:55 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty much every Arab nation |
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