User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
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Posted: 11/22/2020 8:24:56 PM EDT
[#1]
May have it figured out. Will update when I'm able to reinstall the BLTouch tomorrow night.
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Posted: 11/23/2020 10:42:24 AM EDT
[#2]
One issue I had with the BLTouch on a Wanhao D6/MMU was interference. It was working fine with the 1.5m extension I got for it for a couple of weeks. Then one day while going to a .6 nozzle it just stopped working. It always came back as Z_min: triggered. After checking the wiring 20 times and trying out a new bltouch I deciced to use cat6 cable as the extension.
No issues so far. Just putting this here in case anybody runs into mysterious bltouch issues. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 11:23:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Wow, what a POS!
Got the firmware stuff to load (gotta remove all the Chinese letters in ANY file folder that holds the progisp file). Got everything installed (you can't put the cover back on the board with the 27 pin thing in there  ). Did the z-axis offset. I'd select auto home and SOMETIMES would deploy the probe tip. Seems like it was binding, so I removed one screw from the base and it seemed to work every time. Then I did bed leveling and it would probe the front 3, the middle 3 would raise the extruder about halfway up the gantry, the rear 3 MIGHT get probed. I tired a single layer print, but it would zero out several inches above the bed. Tried to remove everything and put it back to stock. The screen makes a very rapid beeping without the 27 pin thing in there. Now, it still wants to do the auto home routine like it has the probe installed and bottoms out the z-axis switch instead of stopping at the switch point. It drove the tip into the bed pretty hard a few times. Anyone have an idea on how to flash back to the stock firmware? It's essentially made my printer useless. 
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Posted: 11/23/2020 11:31:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Sounds like you ran out of RAM on the upgrade.
I would upgrade the board. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 11:39:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like you ran out of RAM on the upgrade. I would upgrade the board.  I just want it to work as stock, it printed great and I really didn't need the ABL. I just HAD to fucking fiddle with shit. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 11:54:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/330CC6C3-704D-4020-B3D5-C91D11232EB1-475.gif I just want it to work as stock, it printed great and I really didn't need the ABL. I just HAD to fucking fiddle with shit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sounds like you ran out of RAM on the upgrade. I would upgrade the board. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/330CC6C3-704D-4020-B3D5-C91D11232EB1-475.gif I just want it to work as stock, it printed great and I really didn't need the ABL. I just HAD to fucking fiddle with shit. I'm sure one of the creality folks will be along with flashing those machines, otherwise Chep on YT probably has instructions. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:49:58 AM EDT
[#7]
there are alot of facebook groups or check on redit somebody may have compiled a firmware for your printer to make it work or found a work around
I found a precompiled firmware on redit somebody wrote adding bltouch for the cr 10 v3 and it works great |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 10:29:59 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: there are alot of facebook groups or check on redit somebody may have compiled a firmware for your printer to make it work or found a work around I found a precompiled firmware on redit somebody wrote adding bltouch for the cr 10 v3 and it works great Dont have FB anymore. Scoured reddit alot and everyone says "just remove everything, it will work fine". No, no it doesnt. Tried contacting Creality when I first couldnt get it to flash the new firmware but they never responded. Should've taken that as a sign and returned it.  I'm pretty sure if I had the hex file for the original firmware, I could flash it back using their burner thing. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 11:46:18 AM EDT
[#9]
See if this blog posting provides any useful insight:
https://kevin-douglas.com/2020/09/21/installing-the-creality-bltouch-auto-bed-leveling-kit-on-my-ender-3/ it references this blog entry which describes another user's experiences : https://medium.com/@jethro_20307/creality-ender-3-pro-bltouch-v3-1-marlin-1-1-9-1-e3512ed9c81a My own experience was on an original ender 3 (1.1.3 board), first using an Arduino Uno as an in-line programmer to burn the boot loader, then the direct USB connection between printer & PC to actually install an ender 3 version of marlin, using the example configuration files from marlin and the Arduino IDE for compiling & uploading. I have never tried to reinstall stock software. There was adequate memory on the 1.1.3 to include mesh leveling in marlin & later to add BLtouch support. I used the 10 pin BLtouch breakout adapter (aka pin 27 adapter) for the BLtouch connection rather than modifying a cable. FWIW, I currently run an MKS Gen L board with marlin 2.0.7 (now using Visual Studio & Platform IO for compiling & uploading) & feel the board upgrade was worth the effort. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 12:05:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dont have FB anymore. Scoured reddit alot and everyone says "just remove everything, it will work fine". No, no it doesnt. Tried contacting Creality when I first couldnt get it to flash the new firmware but they never responded. Should've taken that as a sign and returned it. I'm pretty sure if I had the hex file for the original firmware, I could flash it back using their burner thing. Marlin gives default configs for a lot of printers, Creality included. Compile and flash that. Or, go to the creality github, and flash their pre-compiled firmware. https://github.com/Creality3DPrinting/Ender-3/tree/master/Ender-3%20Firmware%20 |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 1:40:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Marlin gives default configs for a lot of printers, Creality included. Compile and flash that. Or, go to the creality github, and flash their pre-compiled firmware. https://github.com/Creality3DPrinting/Ender-3/tree/master/Ender-3%20Firmware%20 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Dont have FB anymore. Scoured reddit alot and everyone says "just remove everything, it will work fine". No, no it doesnt. Tried contacting Creality when I first couldnt get it to flash the new firmware but they never responded. Should've taken that as a sign and returned it. I'm pretty sure if I had the hex file for the original firmware, I could flash it back using their burner thing. Marlin gives default configs for a lot of printers, Creality included. Compile and flash that. Or, go to the creality github, and flash their pre-compiled firmware. https://github.com/Creality3DPrinting/Ender-3/tree/master/Ender-3%20Firmware%20 I found that last night while troubleshooting. Problem is, I dont know what to do with that wall o' text. Do I copy and paste it to word and save it as a .hex file? I'm well out in the weeds on that kind of stuff. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 1:53:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I found that last night while troubleshooting. Problem is, I dont know what to do with that wall o' text. Do I copy and paste it to word and save it as a .hex file? I'm well out in the weeds on that kind of stuff. there's your problem Squirell needs to be in a tree |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 1:57:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: there's your problem Squirell needs to be in a tree Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I found that last night while troubleshooting. Problem is, I dont know what to do with that wall o' text. Do I copy and paste it to word and save it as a .hex file? I'm well out in the weeds on that kind of stuff. there's your problem Squirell needs to be in a tree Fuck that, its snowing outside. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 2:39:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I found that last night while troubleshooting. Problem is, I dont know what to do with that wall o' text. Do I copy and paste it to word and save it as a .hex file? I'm well out in the weeds on that kind of stuff. What did you do to compile support for the BL Touch? Do the same thing with the default files on the Marlin Github. Or, just flash the .hex file provided by creality. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 2:44:26 PM EDT
[#15]
Look, just dump the POS Creality board.
Buy the BIGTREETECH DIRECT BTT SKR Mini E3 V2.0 Control Board 32Bit +TFT35 E3 V3.0 Integrated with TMC2209 UART https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B089DBS62S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s01?ie=UTF8&th=1 It is so much better than the super cheap OEM board and gives you thermal runaway protection. Then burn the BTT software for the configuration you want. (No BLT, BLT without Z, BLT with Z stop) And the TFT takes SD cards so you don't have to mess with the microcards or extender cable flopping around. TYCOM |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 2:47:46 PM EDT
[#16]
I tried the Firmware from Creality for two days and could not get it to work. Mostly it would run the probe off the print bed. Finally found a Reddit thread with a link to a different file. Works ok now except one corner on my bed doesn't adhere well, even with purple glue. Not sure if the BL touch is goofy or I have another issue.
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Posted: 11/24/2020 3:35:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What did you do to compile support for the BL Touch? Do the same thing with the default files on the Marlin Github. Or, just flash the .hex file provided by creality. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I found that last night while troubleshooting. Problem is, I dont know what to do with that wall o' text. Do I copy and paste it to word and save it as a .hex file? I'm well out in the weeds on that kind of stuff. What did you do to compile support for the BL Touch? Do the same thing with the default files on the Marlin Github. Or, just flash the .hex file provided by creality. Theres a program that comes with the BLTouch that loads and flashes the hex file. I didnt compile anything. The only hex files I could find are the newest version with bed leveling. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 3:37:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look, just dump the POS Creality board. Buy the BIGTREETECH DIRECT BTT SKR Mini E3 V2.0 Control Board 32Bit +TFT35 E3 V3.0 Integrated with TMC2209 UART https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B089DBS62S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s01?ie=UTF8&th=1 It is so much better than the super cheap OEM board and gives you thermal runaway protection. Then burn the BTT software for the configuration you want. (No BLT, BLT without Z, BLT with Z stop) And the TFT takes SD cards so you don't have to mess with the microcards or extender cable flopping around. TYCOM What all do I need to make that happen? Just what is at the link? Plug and play kinda thing? |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 4:51:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What all do I need to make that happen? Just what is at the link? Plug and play kinda thing? If you want you don't even have to get the screen. You can just do the board. SKR mini 1.2 or 2.0 Prices are around $35. Might even be a better this coming friday? Yes they are plug and play (you can do firmware upgrades once you are more comfortable) but they function right out of the box as is. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 6:15:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want you don't even have to get the screen. You can just do the board. SKR mini 1.2 or 2.0 Prices are around $35. Might even be a better this coming friday? Yes they are plug and play (you can do firmware upgrades once you are more comfortable) but they function right out of the box as is. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What all do I need to make that happen? Just what is at the link? Plug and play kinda thing? If you want you don't even have to get the screen. You can just do the board. SKR mini 1.2 or 2.0 Prices are around $35. Might even be a better this coming friday? Yes they are plug and play (you can do firmware upgrades once you are more comfortable) but they function right out of the box as is. Might give it a go then if I dont get this thing fingered out. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 7:35:33 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want you don't even have to get the screen. You can just do the board. SKR mini 1.2 or 2.0 Prices are around $35. Might even be a better this coming friday? Yes they are plug and play (you can do firmware upgrades once you are more comfortable) but they function right out of the box as is. Can confirm this is true. I just did this (HUGE) upgrade to my Ender 3. It can run your printer straught out of the box. Be sure to take pictures before disconnecting anything or tape & label your wires. But, I like to screw with things and am running this board with a BL Touch. Though to make it work, I had to swap my power and ground wires in the connector going to the board. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 7:53:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can confirm this is true. I just did this (HUGE) upgrade to my Ender 3. It can run your printer straught out of the box. Be sure to take pictures before disconnecting anything or tape & label your wires. But, I like to screw with things and am running this board with a BL Touch. Though to make it work, I had to swap my power and ground wires in the connector going to the board. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you want you don't even have to get the screen. You can just do the board. SKR mini 1.2 or 2.0 Prices are around $35. Might even be a better this coming friday? Yes they are plug and play (you can do firmware upgrades once you are more comfortable) but they function right out of the box as is. Can confirm this is true. I just did this (HUGE) upgrade to my Ender 3. It can run your printer straught out of the box. Be sure to take pictures before disconnecting anything or tape & label your wires. But, I like to screw with things and am running this board with a BL Touch. Though to make it work, I had to swap my power and ground wires in the connector going to the board. I think I'll just order the kit tonight and if the price drops for BF, then I'll just order another and return the first one. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 8:01:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think I'll just order the kit tonight and if the price drops for BF, then I'll just order another and return the first one.  
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Posted: 11/24/2020 8:22:49 PM EDT
[#24]
Wait...I can add wifi control with the BTT board!? Damn this hobby!
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Posted: 11/24/2020 8:25:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think I'll just order the kit tonight and if the price drops for BF, then I'll just order another and return the first one. Don't hate the player, hate the game.  Should be here Friday. Hopefully, I can get it running that night. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:35:49 PM EDT
[#26]
I have the same issue other than I can’t get to the point of updating the firmware. I don’t mind getting a new board, where is a good place to get a new board that all I have to do is plug the damn thing in?
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:36:49 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want you don't even have to get the screen. You can just do the board. SKR mini 1.2 or 2.0 Prices are around $35. Might even be a better this coming friday? Yes they are plug and play (you can do firmware upgrades once you are more comfortable) but they function right out of the box as is. @tnertb will those accommodate the BLTouch out of the box or do they need the software upgrade? |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:41:46 PM EDT
[#28]
On the SKR Mini E3, skip the TFT35 screen and forget about the Wifi. The screen doesn't work when you have a filament runout sensor and the Wifi is too slow. I went all out with an upgrade to an original CR-10. The SKR Mini E3 is the best upgrade I've ever done. It's amazing how quiet it is. I can finally run long prints overnight without being driven mad with the stepper noise. It also allowed me to add a BLTouch, filament runout sensor and neopixel LEDs. I did custom firmware in stages to first get the printer working, then one by one added the other components and running it for a while. Everything was great including the TFT35 until I added the filament runout sensor. Hopefully they'll update the TFT35 firmware one of these days to allow it to respond to the runout event.
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:44:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait...I can add wifi control with the BTT board!? Damn this hobby! I think there are some quirks with that module. So research it more before you get too excited. Don't forget the best part of that board will be the silent drivers. Soon you'll be wanting silent fans.
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:46:52 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have the same issue other than I can’t get to the point of updating the firmware. I don’t mind getting a new board, where is a good place to get a new board that all I have to do is plug the damn thing in? Amazon SKR Mini 1.2 or the 2.0 I have 1.2 in both of my machines so I can't comment on the 2.0's There was a slight upgrade but nothing real dramatic so i never looked into them. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:47:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @tnertb will those accommodate the BLTouch out of the box or do they need the software upgrade? I don't run the BL touch so I'm not 100% as to what's needed. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:49:52 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On the SKR Mini E3, skip the TFT35 screen and forget about the Wifi. The screen doesn't work when you have a filament runout sensor and the Wifi is too slow. I went all out with an upgrade to an original CR-10. The SKR Mini E3 is the best upgrade I've ever done. It's amazing how quiet it is. I can finally run long prints overnight without being driven mad with the stepper noise. It also allowed me to add a BLTouch, filament runout sensor and neopixel LEDs. I did custom firmware in stages to first get the printer working, then one by one added the other components and running it for a while. Everything was great including the TFT35 until I added the filament runout sensor. Hopefully they'll update the TFT35 firmware one of these days to allow it to respond to the runout event. Yeah I have the tft35 on one of my machines and after getting it am not thrilled with it. I run it in standard marlin mode. Glad I only paid $10 for it. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:52:43 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think there are some quirks with that module. So research it more before you get too excited. Don't forget the best part of that board will be the silent drivers. Soon you'll be wanting silent fans. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wait...I can add wifi control with the BTT board!? Damn this hobby! I think there are some quirks with that module. So research it more before you get too excited. Don't forget the best part of that board will be the silent drivers. Soon you'll be wanting silent fans. Yeah, the reviews are either "this thing isn't worth the postage" or "best thing invented this century". Would be cool for some of the other monitoring and configuration stuff. The printer lives in the basement, so the sounds are what I use to let me know if it's done printing or not.
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Posted: 11/24/2020 9:59:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't run the BL touch so I'm not 100% as to what's needed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @tnertb will those accommodate the BLTouch out of the box or do they need the software upgrade? I don't run the BL touch so I'm not 100% as to what's needed. What probe do you run? The BLTouch seems a bit "clunky". We'll see how/if it runs with the BTT board. @medicmandan BTT has the firmware on their github for running the BLTouch. Looks like it's all been added within the last month, so who knows if boards are shipping with it already flashed. Link |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 10:02:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What probe do you run? The BLTouch seems a bit "clunky". We'll see how/if it runs with the BTT board. @medicmandan BTT has the firmware on their github for running the BLTouch. Looks like it's all been added within the last month, so who knows if boards are shipping with it already flashed. Link I don't use anything. Just manual mesh bed leveling with paper. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 10:06:56 PM EDT
[#36]
For anyone interested in attempting to do custom firmware for an Ender 3 or CR-10 (with a few adjustments) on an SKR Mini E3 this guide walks you through it: https://www.reddit.com/r/ender3/comments/h8y1ia/marlin_20x_guide_skr_mini_e3_v20_ender_3/
This video is also helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtCz_-2zvZo |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 10:30:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't use anything. Just manual mesh bed leveling with paper. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What probe do you run? The BLTouch seems a bit "clunky". We'll see how/if it runs with the BTT board. @medicmandan BTT has the firmware on their github for running the BLTouch. Looks like it's all been added within the last month, so who knows if boards are shipping with it already flashed. Link I don't use anything. Just manual mesh bed leveling with paper. I may just forgo the ABL stuff. I never had any issues printing with a manual check of level whenever I pulled the bed off. |
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Posted: 11/25/2020 12:20:15 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @tnertb will those accommodate the BLTouch out of the box or do they need the software upgrade? I run a BL touch on the SKR board on my Ender 3 and that setup will not work properly out of the box. But, flashing the firmware is as easy as dragging and dropping a .bin file to your SD card. Edit to add: I also had to swap the power and ground wires on the three-pin connector going to the board to make it work properly. It's a 30 second fix that took me about two frustrating hours to troubleshoot. |
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Posted: 11/27/2020 6:45:28 PM EDT
[#39]
Got the BTT in this morning and have spent nearly all day tweaking this thing. Definitely not "plug-n-play" but 95%. Of course, my BLT has different wire colors than 99% of all the references out of there from people that have done them before, so I had to take a swing and move pins around until they did work. Every tutorial/review/how-to said to flip the hot end fan connectors on the board so it will be PWM controlled instead of 24/7. When I did that, the fan NEVER turned on. Flipped them back to normal, now it just runs whenever the power is on. Guess that's better than not running and risking melting things.
M-fing thing is quiet as shit now though. I have no idea if it's still running unless I go downstairs and check it.
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Posted: 11/27/2020 6:56:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got the BTT in this morning and have spent nearly all day tweaking this thing. Definitely not "plug-n-play" but 95%. Of course, my BLT has different wire colors than 99% of all the references out of there from people that have done them before, so I had to take a swing and move pins around until they did work. Every tutorial/review/how-to said to flip the hot end fan connectors on the board so it will be PWM controlled instead of 24/7. When I did that, the fan NEVER turned on. Flipped them back to normal, now it just runs whenever the power is on. Guess that's better than not running and risking melting things. M-fing thing is quiet as shit now though. I have no idea if it's still running unless I go downstairs and check it. Now we gotta talk you into compiling your own custom firmware.
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Posted: 11/27/2020 7:11:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now we gotta talk you into compiling your own custom firmware. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Got the BTT in this morning and have spent nearly all day tweaking this thing. Definitely not "plug-n-play" but 95%. Of course, my BLT has different wire colors than 99% of all the references out of there from people that have done them before, so I had to take a swing and move pins around until they did work. Every tutorial/review/how-to said to flip the hot end fan connectors on the board so it will be PWM controlled instead of 24/7. When I did that, the fan NEVER turned on. Flipped them back to normal, now it just runs whenever the power is on. Guess that's better than not running and risking melting things. M-fing thing is quiet as shit now though. I have no idea if it's still running unless I go downstairs and check it. Now we gotta talk you into compiling your own custom firmware. Easy now, Hoss. Baby steps here. Gotta get it dialed in first. It's mostly there and is making dimensionally accurate prints. The extruder, during infill ops, will very occasionally skip like it's feeding more than the tip can use/dispense. While I was running the last test piece, I went into the speed menu and dialed it back about 5% but I don't know if it did any good. Like I said, it's a very occasional occurrence and not always in the same place every time. |
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Posted: 11/27/2020 7:21:23 PM EDT
[#42]
Increase nozzle temp 5 degrees
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Posted: 11/27/2020 8:01:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Increase nozzle temp 5 degrees  Another weird observation: I'm going through each color I have and just making a small sample cube. First one ran at the speed it was programmed. The next one, I saw it was like 138%. Next one was 180-something%. The one running now is going 281%. Everything is printing fine, but it's weird that it's increasing its speed by itself. Running the exact same print file as the others. |
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Posted: 11/27/2020 9:43:10 PM EDT
[#44]
Re: nozzle temps and extruder skipping. I installed PrusaSlicer last night just to play around with another program. It is what I've been using all day and noticed that the temps are 10C higher using its default settings compared to Cura. Same extruder feed rate. May have to run a few of the same print but sliced by Cura and see what it does.
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Posted: 11/29/2020 7:07:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, the reviews are either "this thing isn't worth the postage" or "best thing invented this century". Would be cool for some of the other monitoring and configuration stuff. The printer lives in the basement, so the sounds are what I use to let me know if it's done printing or not. You can program your printer to beep when it's done ;) |
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Posted: 11/29/2020 7:18:05 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can program your printer to beep when it's done ;) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah, the reviews are either "this thing isn't worth the postage" or "best thing invented this century". Would be cool for some of the other monitoring and configuration stuff. The printer lives in the basement, so the sounds are what I use to let me know if it's done printing or not. You can program your printer to beep when it's done ;) Go on... Is the beep volume adjustable? Cuz if it's only as loud as the beep I heard while messing around with it, I'm not going to hear it unless I'm standing within 5 feet of it. |
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Posted: 11/29/2020 7:25:45 PM EDT
[#47]
To loud for me to sleep through in the same room so I got rid of it.
 Ender 3 playing music at print start and print end |
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Posted: 11/29/2020 7:57:24 PM EDT
[#48]
Intersting. May give it a try, though I don't have the stock Ender screen anymore and the beeper on the BTT TFT is pretty soft.
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