Last year we raised the first ever black Master Mason in our lodge's 169 year history.  The Newest MM, is a fine man, works hard to raise his family, and is 'on fire' when it comes to Freemasonry.

I was informed yesterday that we have 4 members who are demitting specifically because of his colour.

I am the Master this Masonic year, and honestly don't know who they are, as in I haven't seen them in Lodge since my Raising in 2013.

Explains a lot why they really weren't 'Members' but just 'numbers' on the roles.

Still disappointed that in 2019 there are still people who think this way

I think a lot of it lies in the "tradition" aspect. The order is based off centuries of "traditions" handed down through the generations and if these start getting changed where does it stop? PH is in itself a long standing tradition that serves a particular subset of society in much the same way as the BL does. I am of the opinion if these two organizations want to work together in a more open manner and participate as a guest in each others activities then go for it. But as far as changing set traditions to be more "inclusive" and "diverse" just for the sack of change then I say no, as I view that as a slippery slope. Once you change one thing then where does it stop? Transgender Atheist Omni sexual female/male WM's?

There is no tradition other than no black people have petitioned before. There is no PH lodge within 30 miles of here, and he lives in our small city.

What slippery slope are you talking about?

Honestly if those who demitted ever showed up to meetings, they could have black balled him, but they don't and didn't

Its a tradition in much the same way as you have black universities and black sororities and fraternities on college campuses. Not knowing where you are from makes it hard to relate but around here 30 miles is not a really big deal? I know in other parts of the country 30 miles seems like the other side of the planet though! However, if the PH lodge there is open to uphold the proper values then they should take him in and work with him.

This brings me to my second point. I have had very few interactions with PH members that I would say were "productive". That could be from my living locations or the fact of how the PH lodge works among the military ranks. Even with that I know that every group has their shitbags and the whole group shouldnt be judged off those who choose to act in certain ways. It is becasue of this that I can actually say the last couple of years in my last town, the PH lodge and the Blue Lodge actually had a very good relationship and would visit each others lodges at times.

As far as slippery slope you can just look at society and their attempts to out feel good each other to the point it is detrimental. It starts with a decent well intentioned act and then gets hijacked and taken off the deep end. I may not view PH as clandestine but I am long way off from wanting to associate centuries of my family tradition with the majority of my experiences dealing with PH members. I have actually had this discussion with PH members themselves who feel that they do have a problem with "show Masons" going around broadcasting that they are a Mason and then acting like shitbags to a much higher extent than the Blue Lodge.

I 'm not saying the BL doesnt have its own set of idiots either but these two organizations exist as they do for a reason. Granted most may not agree with the reason, but that in and of itself is part of the history and tradition that makes the two groups what they are today. I have no doubt the guy you raised is a great dude otherwise he wouldnt have made it as far as he did, and I also agree that it is a shitty thing to do by nonexistent members to do what they did when they could have actually showed up and voted if that is how they felt.

On a curiousity note did he say why he wanted to joing the BL instead of PH?

ETA I don't want you to think that I am greeing with thim as far as trying to remove him becasue of his color. I am looking at it from where it will go from a society standpoint (hence slippery slope and tradition). I look at it in much the same way I think jobs should be applied for. No names, race or any of that crap just based on content and abilities and in the case of the BL the content of the character of the man.

He wanted to join our lodge because his Grandfather was a Mason, and he liked the idea of bettering himself as a man. He is a very dedicated father, and husband
(he didn't know his father, and was named after his Grandfather), and works his butt off providing for them.

There are Blue lodges up near the closest PH lodge, that have black members in them, they chose those lodges, and not the PH lodge nearby.

Not really sure why it matters, a good man is a good man regardless of his colour.  This coming from a fairly stodgy 51 year old

I agree with this! This is a good example though of how past interactions affect outlooks on certain situations. I am curious if those that chose the BL over PH have the same perception of PH as I do? If I was in their spot I know I would make the same decision. My main point from this is that I don't believe in forceful integration (scary racisit word ) of the two groups. PH has a tradition that they scan be proud of and a standard that they should try and live up to. Its the same with the BL and my fear is that the do gooders will get ahold of it and screw it up. I just don't want to see the history destroyed (civil war statues) or twisted and rewritten (school history) to the point that the truth is lost.  History is what it is, and is what tradition is born from. It should not be changed for the sake of change but respected and learned from, which is why I fear for our current society. A person shoud be proud of their history whether it be family, state, nation , religion etc .

On a side not it doesnt sound like yall lost much from those 4 members leaving and are probably better off for it and your new guy is better off for them not showing up to vote as well.

Ironically after discovering this thread today I went to Lodge tonight and found out we have a Black brother.

Hadn't seen him before tonight.

I called him brother just like any other Mason.

I can see why a Black man might choose a Blue lodge over Prince Hall.  As a few others have said some of the Prince Hall lodges seem a bit sketchy, and there seem to be a lot of fake ones, and as a non-Mason looking for a lodge you'd have no way of knowing which was which.

Often times, men have experienced bad events and seek to be around same/same culture.

To understand humanity, you have to first understand tribalism as it is the basis for establishing society and culture.  One of the cornerstones of tribalism is that my own tribe is less likely to kill/rape/rob me and is more likely to support and empathize with me.  Nature teaches animals like us to define their tribe visually by appearance first, then by sound, and eventually via interaction.  The first level is literally "do they look like me" followed by "do they talk like me" and eventually "do they think like me".

That's the basis of groupings and tribalism in evolutionary history.

Today, we find the concept distasteful as we live in times where the Police have taken over the mission of the tribe...but society still teaches us via examples, that there are very much still tribes and that tribalism is as relevant today as it was for cave men.  We prefer to be voluntarily myopic but patterns of crime, voting, religious views, behavior, and similar...all prove that tribalism is still real.

The people that quit have likely seen tribalism first hand, possibly experiencing the violent side of the wrong tribe.  You can sanctimoniously judge them...but evolution indicates that they aren't totally wrong in the big picture.

I get that, but I submit that in 2019 tribes don't exist solely along racial lines.  It can be very subtle. There are millions of people in the metro area where I live (although my lodge is in a small town of a few thousand).  They aren't all the same just because of skin color. No more than I'm the same as all the White people or would claim them all as tribe/family.

I don't think he is saying they exist solely along racial lines but more so that race or color is just a possible indicator that combined with other factors creates the tribal perception. For instance if you saw a black guy in a donk with a giant grill bumping some shitty music or meth billy with sores in ratted out Chevy acting paranoid you would form an initial assesment about that individual based soley off of your history and perceptions. That is just human nature and where most people will stop in their assesment of the individual and go ahead establish their judgement of that person based on that small bit. We should be able to look at the whole person concept where it might be revealed person A is youth minister at his church and that is how he is able to reach and relate to his kids and shows them how to grow up and be responsible in society and that person 2 might just well be a total shitshow

ETA Like I mentioned before my first ana only interaction with PH for years was in th emilitary, and as most others can tell you PH in the .mil is not what I would consider to be a good indication of what Masonry is about. It wasn't until recently that I actually had a good experience with PH and if I wasn't open to the individuals and based my actions and perceptions soley on a few factors those would not have happened.

I'm in Detroit several days a week. No illusions about ghetto culture, crime, violence, or the way some people choose to live.  But again, just a subset and not, in my mind, a reason to deny a good man membership to my lodge.

That said, I'm not here to argue. I do that in GD. Every Mason is my brother and everyone here is entitled to his opinion and to post it here. I enjoy the civil discussion.

Have a great day!

Sounds like we are in agreement!

I agree with you. The Blue Lodge degrees attempt to make all men equal on how they look entering the Lodge.

We have some very nice Brothers who just happen to be Black in my Blue Lodge. I'm proud to break bread with any one of them.

When I worked for DEC was the first time I heard about PH and it was from a Veteran who occasionally worked in our product safety lab. He was Black and a very nice gentleman. When he told me about PH (he joined in the Military) and that we couldn't ever sit together (today MA allows PH to sit with us and vice versa) I was terribly embarrassed and it seemed to me then (and still does) to be contrary to the principles of Masonry. I don't see "color", I judge everyone I meet by their character and interactions. Being Jewish, as a kid I suffered considerable antisemitism, so perhaps that is why I can empathize with my Black brethren?

If you agree that race is not a reason to deny membership, we are in agreement. Can't tell from the way you quoted it.   Either way you are entitled to your opinion and we are brothers.

We are.

My worry is with trying to forcefully(in the future) merge the BL with PH basically from my largely negative experineces with PH memebers. The bad have definately outweighed the good in my life and if somebody chooses the the BL over PH then I'm good with it as long he is a good dude.

I wouldn't be into that either. From the little I know about PH the culture is very different and probably best kept separate because neither group would want to do things the same way that the other group does. Now there's a place for everyone. The two can visit or do things together anytime they want in most places now, Whites can join PH, Black men can join the Blue Lodge, so no need to mix them.

The only thing that changes Freemasonry is a Masonic Funeral. Remember that.

Maryland granted official recognition of PH back when I was WM in 2005 or 2006. GM asked me if I would be interested in hosting PH Brothers to visit. I had no problem with that and we were the first in the history of the state to have a meeting with PH and Blue Lodge. Since that time, I've Entered, Passed and Raised several black members and signed the petition for others to join the Shrine. I believe as I was taught, that Masonry regards the internal, not the external.

I couldn't consider myself a true Freemason if I stopped any good man from crossing the threshold based on his skin color.

As for the guys leaving? Don't worry about the chaff. They've spent years wondering why they reluctantly still pay dues when they never go. They make excuses to themselves...

"I'm too busy"
"I don't remember anything"
"Nobody knows me there"

This is just their out. They use it as an excuse to save face and convince themselves they're standing on principle by leaving when in reality it's over a few bucks every year come dues time.

These men never learned the true meaning of Freemasonry nor what we teach. They'll still keep the emblems on their cars and wear their rings and tell everyone the Lodge left them.

You sleep peacefully.

There will always be people who hate others.  You're lucky to be rid of them.  The brotherhood is stronger for it.

That sucks. Sorry to hear that.

Seems that one active, eager MM is worth 4 inactive ones, regardless of the rest of the story. Both are Masons but the new guy will contribute a lot more to the lodge.

No doubt. As one poster said they were looking for the excuse to demit and they found it.

My lodge went the other way . At my lodge years ago we had a candidate get black balled. They held a special meeting and voted him in the lodge. Very few could attend the special meeting on short notice .He became a mason because he thought it would help with his employer. He has never attended lodge since he was raised. Sounds like you lost members that will not be missed.

Wow!

Fortunately our Code is very detailed on how to ballot Petitioners and such shenanigans aren't possible.

I thought ours covered this as well

Well they didn't 'demit'  from the fraternity in the conventional way, they transferred to a lodge in the next town over. By plural membership, then a demit from ours

BUT THE JOKE'S ON THEM, if they actually attend, as I have been told they have 2 black members on the roles in that lodge

We vote three times. To accept the petition, and after the EA, and FC degree proficiency is returned. I assume to prevent "special meetings" like that. Although I have been told we had a blackballed guy brought in anyway through an unusual process because he was friends with a lot of the guys and a couple of years later they told him to leave.

Guess who's coming to dinner!

My grandfather and father were Masons in lodges there were exclusively white.  While exploring lodges near me, I discovered that a black coworker of mine was involved in one of them, and when I called him to ask him about it, the first thing he said to me was "We're a mixed race lodge, you know that, right?"   At the time, I didn't quite understand why he said it.  I ended up getting raised with a black man who had demitted from the PH lodge, and he told me that PH was crazy expensive.   Years later, when my coworker/brother found out that my long time girlfriend is black, he was surprised, as he thought I was (to some degree, unknown how much) a racist.  I was strongly disappointed in this man, both as a coworker and as a brother in my own lodge.

We have a brother lodge in the Bahamas, and when we began not just allowing, but encouraging all races to join us, many of our old timers demitted.  Frankly, I think we are better off without them.

We have recognition for visitation with Prince Hall.  This year there's a resolution for Grand Lodge for full recognition.  I anticipate that it won't have any trouble passing.  We'll see on Friday.

Update -

The resolution passed unanimously.  PH is going to have the same resolution at their annual communication next month.  When it passes we have full recognition.  A Brother can have a Plural Membership in the other, transfer Primary Membership, the whole thing.  Just like any other foreign jurisdiction.

Outstanding!

Well, it got knocked flat.  Wisconsin Prince Hall Masons aren't allowed to have a plural membership in any other PH Lodge.  They can only be members of one Lodge.  Enough of the young members want to see that change before membership can be taken out in our jurisdiction.  So, the Grand Master tabled it for next year.

I seriously doubt PH is going to change to allow plural membership within their own system.  It prevents the monopoly Lodges have within their geographic areas.  Being able to petition our Lodges for plural membership, as well as primary membership, is a real threat to their jurisdiction.

Next year there won't be the same energy from our resolution just passing; even though unanimously.  I'd guess that from their end it's dead.

Sorry to hear that ??

Sounds like you made a good trade.  One good man and got rid of some men that need some work

Black members compared to transgender mentally disturbed?

Does Texas allow blacks to join the Blue Lodge? I know Hispanics join.

Yellowhouse 841 here.

We’ve had exactly one black man since I’ve been there. Unfortunately he was not able to stay with us as he had to move for business.

Seemed like a really great dude. I’d of liked to get to know him better.

I was told a story about Seminole lodge that happened a few years back. They were voting on a petition, the man was black.

An ordinary meeting at that lodge may be 30 people. Over 100 attended. And black balled.

It almost tore that lodge apart.

At the end of the day I will respect those that came before me. Even if I disagree.

I for one don’t have a problem with it at all.

Just don’t look at me funny when I call you brother in front of your friends

I live in one of the few states where PH and the GL do not recognize each other. There's no visitation. Nothing. I think it's quite sad to be honest.

It's been tried numerous times. In fact, to my understanding, PH is the one not willing to enter talks with the GL.

I agree ??