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Posted: 12/10/2018 11:03:47 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
contact ground when the airplane was clear of the runway, no part of the airplane was on the runway side of the hold short line. |
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Posted: 12/10/2018 11:36:00 AM EDT
[#2]
I’m not ATC, or even a fixed wing guy, but for over 30 years I’ve understood it the same way you have and never had an issue.
I think 7110.65X 3-10-9 is as close to a reference as you’re going to find. Whenever one of my students tries to rush to flip to Ground while I’m still over the runway I say “Ground don’t own the runway, hoss.” |
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Posted: 12/10/2018 6:54:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not an ATC'er, but a meat servo like you, and this is what I've always done as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
contact ground when the airplane was clear of the runway, no part of the airplane was on the runway side of the hold short line. |
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Posted: 12/10/2018 7:15:06 PM EDT
[#4]
I ain't a high paid perfeshunul, but I'm of the opinion that I don't talk to the ground controller until I'm in their turf- all of me- on the other side of the line.
If the ground controller is calling me before then, he's gonna have to wait for an answer. |
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Posted: 12/10/2018 7:23:02 PM EDT
[#5]
All I have to add is a queep instruction that Tinker AFB has, or at least used to have in the operating instructions. Aircrew were NOT supposed to say “clear the active” but rather “off the active”. The rationale was something about not confusing a clearance or something. So it was beat into all of us AWACS guys not to say “clear the active” and now it triggers me when I hear people say it that way.
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Posted: 12/10/2018 7:30:43 PM EDT
[#6]
I agree with all of you guys. Recently, I've had more than one fo give me that "don't be captain asshole" look, and some long time fo friends have said I'm being too hardass about the whole thing. At the major hub airports, they will cross multiple airplanes at once, and I think these guys think they have to be first to contact ground, less we end up at the end of the line or something. I could care less where I am in line, since I get paid by the minute.
I will continue to do it the way I always have, and ask the fo's not to switch until we are clear, captain Bligh or not. Just a side observation, it's 99% the regional guys doing this, generally the military pilots wait till we are clear. Now, the guy that argued with me, about my insisting we leave the strobes on, at night, above FL180, and then tried to tell me my manuals weren't right was a different story. |
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Posted: 12/10/2018 8:33:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Are these argumentative millenial asshole pilots?
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Posted: 12/10/2018 9:20:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are these argumentative millenial asshole pilots? |
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Posted: 12/10/2018 10:52:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Isn’t the phraseology used by ATC after landing pretty close to “callsign switch to ground point nine when off”?
If so, I’d default to that for crossing a runway. Switch to ground when you are off the runway. But I understand you are asking for a written reference so I can’t help you with that. |
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Posted: 12/10/2018 10:59:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Honestly, everywhere may be a little different. I prefer pilots switch when told. When I make a transmission, but I don't get a response, i need to make sure the pilot is talking to ground, and it just upped our work load. It's also annoying playing 20 questions! Other facilities may have the mentality and expectation that the pilot automatically go to ground.
If you are going to switch on your own, I would highly recommend not doing it until you are clear of the runway. I think that is a very good practice. |
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Posted: 12/10/2018 11:32:54 PM EDT
[#11]
I'd say 98%+ of the FOs I fly with wait and make the switch/call when we're clear of the runway. I always thought that was the correct procedure, but what the fuck do I knowm I'm just a shitty regional pilot.
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Posted: 12/11/2018 12:51:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Tower controller here, are you asking about exiting a runway onto a taxiway or landing on a runway, being told to exit the runway and cross an adjacent runway by tower then switch to ground?
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Posted: 12/11/2018 12:54:01 AM EDT
[#13]
How many radios do you have?
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Posted: 12/11/2018 12:00:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tower controller here, are you asking about exiting a runway onto a taxiway or landing on a runway, being told to exit the runway and cross an adjacent runway by tower then switch to ground? If there is no runway crossing then as soon as clear or if I'm sure everything is clear when I give the switch. If you're exiting one runway and need to cross another then stay with tower. |
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Posted: 12/11/2018 12:43:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tower controller here, are you asking about exiting a runway onto a taxiway or landing on a runway, being told to exit the runway and cross an adjacent runway by tower then switch to ground? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tower controller here, are you asking about exiting a runway onto a taxiway or landing on a runway, being told to exit the runway and cross an adjacent runway by tower then switch to ground? Quoted:
How many radios do you have? Quoted:
I'd say 98%+ of the FOs I fly with wait and make the switch/call when we're clear of the runway. I always thought that was the correct procedure, but what the fuck do I knowm I'm just a shitty regional pilot. |
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Posted: 12/11/2018 3:45:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Another window licker/tower puke/goof-on-the-roof chiming-in:
It is up to the controller to specify when to contact GC, especially when it comes to an A/C crossing an active rwy. Having said that... A good technique/best practice (IMHO...based upon a very lengthy career) is to NOT switch the guy to GC until the A/C has completed the crossing, or, to specify contacting GC after completing the crossing: An example of the former: "ASH2237, at Whiskey 2, Cross Rwy 1C and turn right on Yankee 7, hold short of Yankee." A/C completes rwy crossing and then is instructed to contact GC. An example of the latter: "UAL339, at Whiskey 4, Cross Rwy 1C, hold short of Yankee; holding short of Yankee, contact ground .62..." Again, I have experienced situations where aircrews will question when to contact GC when performing a Rwy crossing. In my opinion, rightly so. Rwy crossings are a real potential for a fuck up. Thus, I like to keep it simple; while some others like to combine instructions and tell folks to contact GC while performing the crossing. Bottom line for the flight crews/pilots: When in doubt, ask/question. Because if there's a doubt, there is no doubt (that something is probably amiss). You have the front row seat to whatever goes wrong. |
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Posted: 12/11/2018 7:17:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Well said, Mo4.
Mofo-- ha |
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Posted: 12/12/2018 12:47:49 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We have two comm radios. It's company policy that ATC stays on comm 1 (antenna is on top of the airplane), and I don't want anyone in the cockpit off the primary ATC frequency while we are in the middle of crossing an active runway. Or Tower? I assume your second radio has to be on your company freq so you can't switch it to ground while up with tower on radio 1? |
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Posted: 12/13/2018 3:25:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another window licker/tower puke/goof-on-the-roof chiming-in: It is up to the controller to specify when to contact GC, especially when it comes to an A/C crossing an active rwy. Having said that... A good technique/best practice (IMHO...based upon a very lengthy career) is to NOT switch the guy to GC until the A/C has completed the crossing, or, to specify contacting GC after completing the crossing: An example of the former: "ASH2237, at Whiskey 2, Cross Rwy 1C and turn right on Yankee 7, hold short of Yankee." A/C completes rwy crossing and then is instructed to contact GC. An example of the latter: "UAL339, at Whiskey 4, Cross Rwy 1C, hold short of Yankee; holding short of Yankee, contact ground .62..." Again, I have experienced situations where aircrews will question when to contact GC when performing a Rwy crossing. In my opinion, rightly so. Rwy crossings are a real potential for a fuck up. Thus, I like to keep it simple; while some others like to combine instructions and tell folks to contact GC while performing the crossing. Bottom line for the flight crews/pilots: When in doubt, ask/question. Because if there's a doubt, there is no doubt (that something is probably amiss). You have the front row seat to whatever goes wrong. It's all very situational. In one configuration ground is an absolute zoo and the earlier they can talk to you the better so if I'm not running things tight I'll switch the aircraft early so you can get instructions and traffic early that'll keep thing moving. "Right turn at C3 contact ground now on .65" With crossing runways I like to combine the instructions for frequency efficiency but let you know to remain with me "Cross runway 16 at Mike, then holding short of Papa contact ground on .65" |
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Posted: 12/13/2018 4:13:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATC as in Center or Approach? Or Tower? I assume your second radio has to be on your company freq so you can't switch it to ground while up with tower on radio 1? I will never understand why people want to be in a hurry to talk on the ground, wether it's switching off tower, or calling ramp control the minute we clear the runway. We used to put an emphasis on this stuff in training, and it's still covered, but not like it used to be. Both these happened in the 90's, but reenforce in my mind, why we need everyone heads up, and giving surface operations their undivided attention. This happened while I was a lowly commuter first officer just a few decades ago. UsAir/Sky West at LAX And then this.  Runway Incursion Providence, Rhode Island NTSB Animation |
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Posted: 12/14/2018 3:06:07 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whatever ATC frequency we are currently using will be on comm 1, comm 2 is either company freq, ramp control or guard, depending on whats going on. We could use comm 2 to call ground, but that would bring other issues into play. Listening to two potentially busy frequencies at the same time, and then back to someone would be messing with ground, while we were still crossing the runway. I will never understand why people want to be in a hurry to talk on the ground, wether it's switching off tower, or calling ramp control the minute we clear the runway. We used to put an emphasis on this stuff in training, and it's still covered, but not like it used to be. Both these happened in the 90's, but reenforce in my mind, why we need everyone heads up, and giving surface operations their undivided attention. This happened while I was a lowly commuter first officer just a few decades ago. UsAir/Sky West at LAX And then this.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtfFFcjuvn4You're only under control of one entity at a time. I only asked the question initially because I was under the impression there was some urgency to the switch over. |
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Posted: 12/14/2018 3:28:59 AM EDT
[#22]
What exactly are you worried about? That the tower will tell you to stop half way across the runway? Are you not clearing the runway yourself? I just don't see any reason to get bent around the axle about the small things. If you're cleared and told to contact ground, that's all you have to do. Fast, slow, you decide. I'll have over 40 years by the time I retire. I'd rather not worry about certain things. I'm not that high strung I suppose.
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Posted: 12/14/2018 5:18:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What exactly are you worried about? That the tower will tell you to stop half way across the runway? Are you not clearing the runway yourself? I just don't see any reason to get bent around the axle about the small things. If you're cleared and told to contact ground, that's all you have to do. Fast, slow, you decide. I'll have over 40 years by the time I retire. I'd rather not worry about certain things. I'm not that high strung I suppose. I've been flying 121 for 31 years, and if I go to 65, that will make 43 years total. I intend to do everything in my power to finish that time without bending any metal, or having a pilot deviation. I'd argue that history has proven time and time again that you should be concerned with the "small" things, because thats whats probably going to kill you. My dad, a professional pilot himself, gave me one of these right after my first solo, on my 16th birthday. It's framed above my desk, because as long as airplanes have pilots, it's always going to be true. 
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Posted: 12/14/2018 9:05:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is a great post. It's all very situational. In one configuration ground is an absolute zoo and the earlier they can talk to you the better so if I'm not running things tight I'll switch the aircraft early so you can get instructions and traffic early that'll keep thing moving. "Right turn at C3 contact ground now on .65" With crossing runways I like to combine the instructions for frequency efficiency but let you know to remain with me "Cross runway 16 at Mike, then holding short of Papa contact ground on .65" |
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Posted: 12/14/2018 11:57:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Realistically any of us who have been doing this long enough already know that if there is no hard set rule on something, we have to use our best judgement. Certain situations would behoove one to wait until fully clear of the runway to switch frequencies and other times not necessarily so. I've taxied all the way to my gate without ever speaking to ground in ORD and in LGA i'm running multiple frequencies simultaneously. Getting the job done while being safe means adapting at times. Rules are rules at the end of the day, no one is arguing that. I can argue switching early is safer than not and vice versa depending on the situation.
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Posted: 12/14/2018 7:00:07 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whatever ATC frequency we are currently using will be on comm 1, comm 2 is either company freq, ramp control or guard, depending on whats going on. We could use comm 2 to call ground, but that would bring other issues into play. Listening to two potentially busy frequencies at the same time, and then back to someone would be messing with ground, while we were still crossing the runway. I will never understand why people want to be in a hurry to talk on the ground, wether it's switching off tower, or calling ramp control the minute we clear the runway. We used to put an emphasis on this stuff in training, and it's still covered, but not like it used to be. Both these happened in the 90's, but reenforce in my mind, why we need everyone heads up, and giving surface operations their undivided attention. This happened while I was a lowly commuter first officer just a few decades ago. UsAir/Sky West at LAX And then this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtfFFcjuvn4Every time I see that video, I cringe. I also say "attaboy" to that US Air flight crew. |
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Posted: 12/14/2018 7:10:04 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just as a side comment: That Rhode Island rwy incursion is my #1 example to the 'kids' at work of what a fuck-up in the biggest magnitude (that did not result in fatalities) looks like. Every time I see that video, I cringe. I also say "attaboy" to that US Air flight crew. |
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Posted: 12/14/2018 7:41:48 PM EDT
[#28]
I'm with the majority. Runway belongs to Tower. I'll stay with them until cleared of the runway.
The one stipulation is this: I'm a helicopter guy, so I'm rarely landing on a runway to begin with, and it's pretty rare for me to be asked to switched to ground, since controllers like us to keep our hands on the controls when we hover. Most of the time, if I'm not landing to a non-movement area, Tower will give me taxi instructions and tell me to stay with them. Really, I prefer to just be cleared to land at a specific intersection abeam my destination. Some places though will give a clearance like such: "Clear to land taxiway Alpha at Delta, contact ground .7 when landing assured". BAF was like that, where we would land to the hammerhead, and I would get taxi instructions while on short final. This initially drove my command pilots nuts when I would switch at 100-200' agl, until they saw how efficient it made us to get the clearance ahead of time to taxi to the pax terminal. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 12:03:55 PM EDT
[#29]
While working tower, I would generally tell you if I wanted you to stay on my frequency, and had given you crossing instructions. Assuming to contact ground once clear of the runway is the right thing to do when in doubt.
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Posted: 12/16/2018 4:45:33 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree, it’s all situational and should be considered for each location. If you land 24R in LAX, ground will be calling you as you’re crossing 24L as you will jam up the northbound traffic coming from the south side if you make the reverse on 24R. |
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Posted: 12/22/2018 3:05:40 AM EDT
[#31]
I actually had a captain that was so twitchy-quirky, that he Thought I switched it over, when I hadn’t.
 .(It was his thing, you see.) So, He switched it (accidentally) over to ground, thinking He was switching Back to tower, so that when I did switch, I was actually switching back to tower.
All that confusion for nothing. Don’t wanna be that guy. You remember from your time in the right seat, It’s not so much what the Cpt says, it’s how (or when) he says it. 98% of pilots just want to complete the trip without a hassle or a NASA report. Then, there’s the 2% that just make a big deal out of everything. Those are exhausting to fly with. |
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Posted: 12/22/2018 10:57:26 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I actually had a captain that was so twitchy-quirky, that he Thought I switched it over, when I hadn’t. .(It was his thing, you see.) So, He switched it (accidentally) over to ground, thinking He was switching Back to tower, so that when I did switch, I was actually switching back to tower.
All that confusion for nothing. Don’t wanna be that guy. You remember from your time in the right seat, It’s not so much what the Cpt says, it’s how (or when) he says it. 98% of pilots just want to complete the trip without a hassle or a NASA report. Then, there’s the 2% that just make a big deal out of everything. Those are exhausting to fly with. 
But it was that screwed up on the ground, you have to wonder what it would be like in event of an emergency. |
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