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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:13:53 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only thing you will learn with an $800 rifle/scope combo that can't be learned with a decent precision rifle and optic is malfunction drills, and Kentucky windage when your scope fails and loses zero. Wanna know why a hunting rifle with a cheap scope "works"? Because it isn't really being used outside of its design limitations. You aren't banging out several hundred rounds In a few days, or twisting the turrets hundreds of times a day with Grandpa's '06 topped with a Weaver Grand Slam. Anyone that has ever graduated Sniper school, attended a Precision Rifle Course, or shot a Precision Rifle match will tell you that shit equipment will fail you. Everyone of the above could make a cheap rifle and optic work in a limited scope, but that doesn't need to be taught. Cheap rifles and expensive precision rigs have the same mechanics, so why do we need a block of instruction on how to suck it up if aliens invade and I have to make due with a Savage I picked up off of the ground? Is this something I need to learn? Would you not be better served by not having to worry about your equipment and concentrate on the tasks at hand during a training environment? Does Lewis Hamilton need a block of instruction on how to drive your shitbox to Safeway? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well, maybe the instructor just wants to drive home the point that skills and tactics will win over brand names and price tags...every damn time? Maybe he wants to prove to these students that if all they have at hand is an old deer rifle, they don't have to quit the fight and run away? Maybe he wants everyone at a relatively even starting point so they all have a fair shot at "top gun?" Maybe he just wants to run a training class where people come to improve their shooting, not a fashion show where people come to impress one another with their fancy gear? FWIW, if you can't shoot with an $800 rig, a $4,000 rifle ain't gonna make you a sniper. Wanna know why a hunting rifle with a cheap scope "works"? Because it isn't really being used outside of its design limitations. You aren't banging out several hundred rounds In a few days, or twisting the turrets hundreds of times a day with Grandpa's '06 topped with a Weaver Grand Slam. Anyone that has ever graduated Sniper school, attended a Precision Rifle Course, or shot a Precision Rifle match will tell you that shit equipment will fail you. Everyone of the above could make a cheap rifle and optic work in a limited scope, but that doesn't need to be taught. Cheap rifles and expensive precision rigs have the same mechanics, so why do we need a block of instruction on how to suck it up if aliens invade and I have to make due with a Savage I picked up off of the ground? Is this something I need to learn? Would you not be better served by not having to worry about your equipment and concentrate on the tasks at hand during a training environment? Does Lewis Hamilton need a block of instruction on how to drive your shitbox to Safeway? There is a good reason so many people mention the fixed power SWFA scopes. I have a 10x and 16x. They are proven tanks, with great turrets and glass above their price point. There are plenty of $400 rifles out there that can take a beating and keep on going. $800 is perfectly reasonable to get into a rifle that can take a beating and still shoot. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:16:46 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a good reason so many people mention the fixed power SWFA scopes. I have a 10x and 16x. They are proven tanks, with great turrets and glass above their price point. There are plenty of $400 rifles out there that can take a beating and keep on going. $800 is perfectly reasonable to get into a rifle that can take a beating and still shoot. A 10x is fucking retarded in 2021. What 400 dollar rifle? I have seen a shitload of savages fail at matches.. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:18:41 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only thing you will learn with an $800 rifle/scope combo that can't be learned with a decent precision rifle and optic is malfunction drills, and Kentucky windage when your scope fails and loses zero. Wanna know why a hunting rifle with a cheap scope "works"? Because it isn't really being used outside of its design limitations. You aren't banging out several hundred rounds In a few days, or twisting the turrets hundreds of times a day with Grandpa's '06 topped with a Weaver Grand Slam. Anyone that has ever graduated Sniper school, attended a Precision Rifle Course, or shot a Precision Rifle match will tell you that shit equipment will fail you. Everyone of the above could make a cheap rifle and optic work in a limited scope, but that doesn't need to be taught. Cheap rifles and expensive precision rigs have the same mechanics, so why do we need a block of instruction on how to suck it up if aliens invade and I have to make due with a Savage I picked up off of the ground? Is this something I need to learn? Would you not be better served by not having to worry about your equipment and concentrate on the tasks at hand during a training environment? Does Lewis Hamilton need a block of instruction on how to drive your shitbox to Safeway? Look at this way, your main rifle is destroyed. Your buddy Jim Bob has his 308 with a duplex reticle. Can you range and and engage a target at 600 yards with that rifle? No one is arguing that a $800 gun is equivalent to a more expensive rifle with more useful features. This "class" reads more like a challenge of "How well rounded are you as a shooter?" |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:20:30 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look at this way, your main rifle is destroyed. Your buddy Jim Bob has his 308 with a duplex reticle. Can you range and and engage a target at 600 yards with that rifle? 
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:22:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a good reason so many people mention the fixed power SWFA scopes. I have a 10x and 16x. They are proven tanks, with great turrets and glass above their price point. There are plenty of $400 rifles out there that can take a beating and keep on going. $800 is perfectly reasonable to get into a rifle that can take a beating and still shoot. Here's the deal. My two sons have a Savage and Ruger American as their first big game rifles. Are they great rifles for the money? Yeah, although my oldest sons Savage has taken a few hundred dollars to get to run right with a new trigger, stock, etc. I bought those knowing what they would be used for. I bought those knowing, as a competition shooter, that I have seen piles of Savages and cheaper optics fail at matches. I knew that, but I didn't buy them for competition shooting. Every gun has a purpose. I love that little Ruger American I bought my son, but I'm not delueuonal enough to pretend it would hold up for a training class. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:22:10 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look at this way, your main rifle is destroyed. Your buddy Jim Bob has his 308 with a duplex reticle. Can you range and and engage a target at 600 yards with that rifle? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The only thing you will learn with an $800 rifle/scope combo that can't be learned with a decent precision rifle and optic is malfunction drills, and Kentucky windage when your scope fails and loses zero. Wanna know why a hunting rifle with a cheap scope "works"? Because it isn't really being used outside of its design limitations. You aren't banging out several hundred rounds In a few days, or twisting the turrets hundreds of times a day with Grandpa's '06 topped with a Weaver Grand Slam. Anyone that has ever graduated Sniper school, attended a Precision Rifle Course, or shot a Precision Rifle match will tell you that shit equipment will fail you. Everyone of the above could make a cheap rifle and optic work in a limited scope, but that doesn't need to be taught. Cheap rifles and expensive precision rigs have the same mechanics, so why do we need a block of instruction on how to suck it up if aliens invade and I have to make due with a Savage I picked up off of the ground? Is this something I need to learn? Would you not be better served by not having to worry about your equipment and concentrate on the tasks at hand during a training environment? Does Lewis Hamilton need a block of instruction on how to drive your shitbox to Safeway? Look at this way, your main rifle is destroyed. Your buddy Jim Bob has his 308 with a duplex reticle. Can you range and and engage a target at 600 yards with that rifle? Considering Jim Bob hasn't zeroed his rifle in a decade and keeps about 10 different boxes of ammo in his gun cabinet, depending on which brand and load was on sale at Wal Mart that weekend, no. I'm guessing you can't. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:23:24 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look at this way, your main rifle is destroyed. Your buddy Jim Bob has his 308 with a duplex reticle. Can you range and and engage a target at 600 yards with that rifle? |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:24:23 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A 10x is fucking retarded in 2021. What 400 dollar rifle? I have seen a shitload of savages fail at matches.. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is a good reason so many people mention the fixed power SWFA scopes. I have a 10x and 16x. They are proven tanks, with great turrets and glass above their price point. There are plenty of $400 rifles out there that can take a beating and keep on going. $800 is perfectly reasonable to get into a rifle that can take a beating and still shoot. A 10x is fucking retarded in 2021. What 400 dollar rifle? I have seen a shitload of savages fail at matches.. What is more retarded is signing up for an entry level training class and 87% of them dicking with some fancy shit they have never trained with before. I love jumping around 100 to 800 yards with my fixed power 10x SWFA. Don't even think about messing with the power setting. Just dope and parallax. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:26:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. If Jim Bob has quality ammo, I will hit 600 yards by the second round. Good. THAT is what this class is about from what I gather. It really isn't that hard to hit shit with all the tools we have now. That's what this class seems to be about, can you LOSE those tools and still be effective. Of course I could be totally wrong. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:30:28 AM EDT
[#10]
To the folks who don’t get it. Ed Calderon is all about ghetto Macguyver’isms. He is considered by many to be an expert in tactics and “tradecraft” utilized by various Mexican drug cartel (mostly low-mid level) “poors” to outsmart both Mexican federales and US agencies such as border patrol, DEA, and ICE.
Now use that background when thinking of this class. He’s trying to get people to use cheap as shit (relatively) rifles and scopes to accomplish what snipers with custom actions and German glass can do. Maybe not 100% to their level but close enough. The type of person who would take this class knows what Ed is all about I doubt you’d see any bullshit bsa or ncstar scopes in there. You’d definitely see stuff that may be outdated but still solid performers. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:34:05 AM EDT
[#11]
I give up. Y'all gear queens win this one on account of I'm going to bed.
Just consider, no one said this is a training program for US Gyrene HooYah Snipers. Ain't no one said nothin' about no students "deploying" outta this weekend course. If this is aimed at teaching tactics to a wide, general target audience (not seasoned professional long-distance warriors like many of you), the use of commonly-available gear might have value. Also, FWIW, being able to shoot with iron sights when your scope breaks is a valuable skill to learn--even in 2021, and even if you have $3000 glass. (Yes, in a tactical environment, anything can break.) And learning to react to and resolve weapon failures should be a critical part of any firearm training. Going to war? No, I wouldn't grab the cheapest rifle in the house. But that doesn't mean it's not worth taking a class with it, depending on the goals of the class. END MESSAGE |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:34:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only thing you will learn with an $800 rifle/scope combo that can't be learned with a decent precision rifle and optic is malfunction drills, and Kentucky windage when your scope fails and loses zero. Wanna know why a hunting rifle with a cheap scope "works"? Because it isn't really being used outside of its design limitations. You aren't banging out several hundred rounds In a few days, or twisting the turrets hundreds of times a day with Grandpa's '06 topped with a Weaver Grand Slam. Anyone that has ever graduated Sniper school, attended a Precision Rifle Course, or shot a Precision Rifle match will tell you that shit equipment will fail you. Everyone of the above could make a cheap rifle and optic work in a limited scope, but that doesn't need to be taught. Cheap rifles and expensive precision rigs have the same mechanics, so why do we need a block of instruction on how to suck it up if aliens invade and I have to make due with a Savage I picked up off of the ground? Is this something I need to learn? Would you not be better served by not having to worry about your equipment and concentrate on the tasks at hand during a training environment? Does Lewis Hamilton need a block of instruction on how to drive your shitbox to Safeway? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well, maybe the instructor just wants to drive home the point that skills and tactics will win over brand names and price tags...every damn time? Maybe he wants to prove to these students that if all they have at hand is an old deer rifle, they don't have to quit the fight and run away? Maybe he wants everyone at a relatively even starting point so they all have a fair shot at "top gun?" Maybe he just wants to run a training class where people come to improve their shooting, not a fashion show where people come to impress one another with their fancy gear? FWIW, if you can't shoot with an $800 rig, a $4,000 rifle ain't gonna make you a sniper. Wanna know why a hunting rifle with a cheap scope "works"? Because it isn't really being used outside of its design limitations. You aren't banging out several hundred rounds In a few days, or twisting the turrets hundreds of times a day with Grandpa's '06 topped with a Weaver Grand Slam. Anyone that has ever graduated Sniper school, attended a Precision Rifle Course, or shot a Precision Rifle match will tell you that shit equipment will fail you. Everyone of the above could make a cheap rifle and optic work in a limited scope, but that doesn't need to be taught. Cheap rifles and expensive precision rigs have the same mechanics, so why do we need a block of instruction on how to suck it up if aliens invade and I have to make due with a Savage I picked up off of the ground? Is this something I need to learn? Would you not be better served by not having to worry about your equipment and concentrate on the tasks at hand during a training environment? Does Lewis Hamilton need a block of instruction on how to drive your shitbox to Safeway? So you think the purpose of this course is to make the attendee's Military grade trained snipers?? Do you suggest that anyone who wants to get into or "THINKS" they want to get into long range shooting should go out and spend 5K BEFORE they try it? Do you think it a bad thing that this would benefit hunters who want to extend their ranges ethically ? You think the skills that are needed to take long range shots should not be taught to the masses? Would it be a bad thing if Joe's hunting rifle sat in the safe for years but in the event he needed it for some reason or had to take a long range shot he had some training to do so? Could someone say " meh I 'm not into this " and another say" I love this shit time to upgrade my shit". If you were training someone to do a motor rebuild would you insist they have snap-on tools instead of Tekton? Guy building a shed in his back yard only use commercial grade top notch pro contractors tools? Dude you are missing the point of this. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:34:33 AM EDT
[#13]
A Swiss K-31 with a Swiss products clamp on mount and a Nikon 4-16x scope would also fit the bill.
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:41:14 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To the folks who don't get it. Ed Calderon is all about ghetto Macguyver'isms. He is considered by many to be an expert in tactics and "tradecraft" utilized by various Mexican drug cartel (mostly low-mid level) "poors" to outsmart both Mexican federales and US agencies such as border patrol, DEA, and ICE. Now use that background when thinking of this class. He's trying to get people to use cheap as shit (relatively) rifles and scopes to accomplish what snipers with custom actions and German glass can do. Maybe not 100% to their level but close enough. Why put a price limit on the equipment? Does a Ruger American have totally different mechanics than a Curtis or Impact actioned bolt gun? Some dude is going to show up with a Tasco or Nikon Buckmaster and not finish the class. I understand the premise, but we don't train SOTIC students on using a Mosin in case the break their long gun in half, and find one laying on the ground. They'll figure it out. Hell, I think an Iron Sight 22 would have better training value than a budget hunting setup. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:47:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you think the purpose of this course is to make the attendee's Military grade trained snipers?? Do you suggest that anyone who wants to get into or "THINKS" they want to get into long range shooting should go out and spend 5K BEFORE they try it? Do you think it a bad thing that this would benefit hunters who want to extend their ranges ethically ? You think the skills that are needed to take long range shots should not be taught to the masses? Would it be a bad thing if Joe's hunting rifle sat in the safe for years but in the event he needed it for some reason or had to take a long range shot he had some training to do so? Could someone say " meh I 'm not into this " and another say" I love this shit time to upgrade my shit". If you were training someone to do a motor rebuild would you insist they have snap-on tools instead of Tekton? Guy building a shed in his back yard only use commercial grade top notch pro contractors tools? Dude you are missing the point of this. Well, the OP said the class was a Scout Sniper class, so, yes, it crossed my mind. A more realistic approach would be to make equipment requirements a reliable 308 bolt gun, and a fixed 10x optic. Less crap to go wrong with a fixed 10x instead of the goofy crap people are going to show up with shooting on an $800 budget. There are going to be alot of Amazon "Sniper" scopes that are $300 FFP and some type of busy reticle, unless it is a vetted course with prerequisites. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:50:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Interesting concept. Why not just buy a https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/207983
A Savage 110 with kit Lens would probably be fine for your course. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:52:06 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I still have one on an old 308, which is why I mentioned it. Here's the deal. My two sons have a Savage and Ruger American as their first big game rifles. Are they great rifles for the money? Yeah, although my oldest sons Savage has taken a few hundred dollars to get to run right with a new trigger, stock, etc. I bought those knowing what they would be used for. I bought those knowing, as a competition shooter, that I have seen piles of Savages and cheaper optics fail at matches. I knew that, but I didn't buy them for competition shooting. Every gun has a purpose. I love that little Ruger American I bought my son, but I'm not delueuonal enough to pretend it would hold up for a training class. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is a good reason so many people mention the fixed power SWFA scopes. I have a 10x and 16x. They are proven tanks, with great turrets and glass above their price point. There are plenty of $400 rifles out there that can take a beating and keep on going. $800 is perfectly reasonable to get into a rifle that can take a beating and still shoot. Here's the deal. My two sons have a Savage and Ruger American as their first big game rifles. Are they great rifles for the money? Yeah, although my oldest sons Savage has taken a few hundred dollars to get to run right with a new trigger, stock, etc. I bought those knowing what they would be used for. I bought those knowing, as a competition shooter, that I have seen piles of Savages and cheaper optics fail at matches. I knew that, but I didn't buy them for competition shooting. Every gun has a purpose. I love that little Ruger American I bought my son, but I'm not delueuonal enough to pretend it would hold up for a training class. Alright, just how did these piles of Savages fail. Be specific please. Barrels melt? Bolt fell apart? Bolt handle fall off? Chamber shoot itself out of spec? Stock split? Trigger fuck up? Firing pin break? What?? How do you make a bolt action " RUN RIGHT" ?? Never heard that term in reference to a bolt action. Run Right. I have heard and use the term "tune" in reference to a bolt action but never " run right". Did you have problems with the bolt? Would not operate/function ? Would not chamber factory ammo? Did you have to ream the chamber to get it to accept factory ammo and shoot? Did the trigger fail? Or did you want an aftermarket trigger? I'm going to call BS on your Savage statement. Glass? Yeah there is a minimum I would except for glass for constant hard duty. For ONE class? For the Average shooter that wants to get their feet wet? Most modern quality $400.00 scopes are going to survive just fine. I would say ALL of them but everyone makes a turd once in a while. For $400.00 bucks you just can't have the the big number at the end. That's OK, you don't NEED 20x . |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 2:01:35 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alright, just how did these piles of Savages fail. Be specific please. Barrels melt? Bolt fell apart? Bolt handle fall off? Chamber shoot itself out of spec? Stock split? Trigger fuck up? Firing pin break? What?? How do you make a bolt action " RUN RIGHT" ?? Never heard that term in reference to a bolt action. Run Right. I have heard and use the term "tune" in reference to a bolt action but never " run right". Did you have problems with the bolt? Would not operate/function ? Would not chamber factory ammo? Did you have to ream the chamber to get it to accept factory ammo and shoot? Did the trigger fail? Or did you want an aftermarket trigger? I'm going to call BS on your Savage statement. Glass? Yeah there is a minimum I would except for glass for constant hard duty. For ONE class? For the Average shooter that wants to get their feet wet? Most modern quality $400.00 scopes are going to survive just fine. I would say ALL of them but everyone makes a turd once in a while. For $400.00 bucks you just can't have the the big number at the end. That's OK, you don't NEED 20x . Savages are low grade trash. Just working the bolt on one and it feels like it was made in a peasants workshop talk about crude, rough, bolt binds up and has heavy bolt lift. I’ve seen triggers freeze up, casings not eject and bolts lock up using factory ammo. They suck. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 2:02:09 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alright, just how did these piles of Savages fail. Be specific please. Barrels melt? Bolt fell apart? Bolt handle fall off? Chamber shoot itself out of spec? Stock split? Trigger fuck up? Firing pin break? What?? How do you make a bolt action " RUN RIGHT" ?? Never heard that term in reference to a bolt action. Run Right. I have heard and use the term "tune" in reference to a bolt action but never " run right". Did you have problems with the bolt? Would not operate/function ? Would not chamber factory ammo? Did you have to ream the chamber to get it to accept factory ammo and shoot? Did the trigger fail? Or did you want an aftermarket trigger? I'm going to call BS on your Savage statement. Glass? Yeah there is a minimum I would except for glass for constant hard duty. For ONE class? For the Average shooter that wants to get their feet wet? Most modern quality $400.00 scopes are going to survive just fine. I would say ALL of them but everyone makes a turd once in a while. For $400.00 bucks you just can't have the the big number at the end. That's OK, you don't NEED 20x . Failures to feed, failures to fire (damn near every match that has had a Savage in it, and my sons personal savage. A known issue with Accutriggers) are the big ones. Don't take my word for it, hit up Google, precision rifle message groups, Snipershide, etc. Anyone that has shot a match or taken a course has seen every make and model of sub-$1k scopes fail. You will see a Vortex Viper PST fail at damn near every match, Arkens, et al. Twisting turrets and shooting hundreds of rounds at a quick pace will show the weaknesses of any piece of equipment. It may not fail that day, but it's going to. There is a reason competitors and people taking classes bite the bullet and buy quality gear, and it's because they have tried to save money and the equipment failed them at some point. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 2:06:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Ruger American and a SWFA 10x or 12x fixed power. Also a DNZ Gamereaper scope mount, though that might push you a hair over $800.
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Posted: 2/23/2021 2:13:59 AM EDT
[#21]
There is some truth to the anti Savage sentiment. In part due to the design/construction of the extractor, partly because they aren't as "smooth" of action.
The Accutrigger doesn't help either although by now people using it should know better. Which bring us to the second part. The Savage shooters tend to be new guys and they slow down everting a the PRS match and now your lunch is going to be cold. In addition, not knowing what they are doing and trying to it on the clock induces more failures. Mostly I think it pissed people off when the guy with a jumped Savage outshoots them. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 2:15:37 AM EDT
[#22]
I’d think the 280 dollar PA 308 Accs ffp 4-14 scope would work nice doing a urban sniper deal. I mean the reticle is set up for quick ranging of human targets and the bdc is setup so you wouldn’t be crankin turrets all day. I’d go with a Howa rifle but lookin at prices it might put you over budget.
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Posted: 2/23/2021 2:20:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Just a quick "after midnight, can't sleep AGAIN" list of how I'd do this:
Ruger American .308: https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/rifles/ruger-american-black-bolt-action-rifle-308-winchester/p/1291031 Athlon Argos BTR Scope: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0157N4640/?tag=kbp-scopereviews-20&th=1 Warne Rings: https://www.amazon.com/Warne-30mm-Matte-PA-Rings/dp/B07CQ86CM9 $2.07 left over. Shipping/tax not included. Don't know if that factors in or not here. If it does, it's going to get ugly. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 2:26:37 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Failures to feed, failures to fire (damn near every match that has had a Savage in it, and my sons personal savage. A known issue with Accutriggers) are the big ones. Don't take my word for it, hit up Google, precision rifle message groups, Snipershide, etc. Anyone that has shot a match or taken a course has seen every make and model of sub-$1k scopes fail. You will see a Vortex Viper PST fail at damn near every match, Arkens, et al. Twisting turrets and shooting hundreds of rounds at a quick pace will show the weaknesses of any piece of equipment. It may not fail that day, but it's going to. There is a reason competitors and people taking classes bite the bullet and buy quality gear, and it's because they have tried to save money and the equipment failed them at some point. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Alright, just how did these piles of Savages fail. Be specific please. Barrels melt? Bolt fell apart? Bolt handle fall off? Chamber shoot itself out of spec? Stock split? Trigger fuck up? Firing pin break? What?? How do you make a bolt action " RUN RIGHT" ?? Never heard that term in reference to a bolt action. Run Right. I have heard and use the term "tune" in reference to a bolt action but never " run right". Did you have problems with the bolt? Would not operate/function ? Would not chamber factory ammo? Did you have to ream the chamber to get it to accept factory ammo and shoot? Did the trigger fail? Or did you want an aftermarket trigger? I'm going to call BS on your Savage statement. Glass? Yeah there is a minimum I would except for glass for constant hard duty. For ONE class? For the Average shooter that wants to get their feet wet? Most modern quality $400.00 scopes are going to survive just fine. I would say ALL of them but everyone makes a turd once in a while. For $400.00 bucks you just can't have the the big number at the end. That's OK, you don't NEED 20x . Failures to feed, failures to fire (damn near every match that has had a Savage in it, and my sons personal savage. A known issue with Accutriggers) are the big ones. Don't take my word for it, hit up Google, precision rifle message groups, Snipershide, etc. Anyone that has shot a match or taken a course has seen every make and model of sub-$1k scopes fail. You will see a Vortex Viper PST fail at damn near every match, Arkens, et al. Twisting turrets and shooting hundreds of rounds at a quick pace will show the weaknesses of any piece of equipment. It may not fail that day, but it's going to. There is a reason competitors and people taking classes bite the bullet and buy quality gear, and it's because they have tried to save money and the equipment failed them at some point. I know all about the Accutriggers . Not a big deal or costly fix. Personally, If I purchased a savage and am thinking about it, the first thing I would do is change the trigger.Better yet, I would just buy the action only sans trigger. Anyone showing up at a match with an Accutrigger is making a mistake IMO. I wouldn't go hunting with one. I have not seen or heard about failures to feed to any degree. Suppose it probably does happen. Never heard it as a chronic issue. Not arguing about good glass . I like good glass and yes I am well aware of cheap shit failing. My point is, you can purchase decent glass that will make it through a course ( and more ) today for $400.00. Especially if you shop wisely and don't have to have the latest greatest out there. Would I expect such glass to last years of hard use ? No. But, you are correct. Don't expect a scope using plastic gears, etc. to last as long as those using metal. It won't happen. That's what the "muh BSA is just as clear as your XXXX and just as good " crowd miss..... the internals. I am just keeping things in context here and I understand the purpose of this course. I like the idea of it very much. If someone took this course and decided they liked it and the challenge , they would then be wise to upgrade glass that would withstand repeated practice/use. I would not by Nightforce etc. until I decided I like this shit. In the meantime, ALL would benefit from the knowledge gained in the training. As far as rifles go, if you got a good proven well tuned rifle no reason to replace it. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 2:35:36 AM EDT
[#25]
Easy.
I have one of these on a hunting rifle and it's excellent glass for the price: https://www.natchezss.com/burris-veracity-rifle-scope-2-10x42mm-30mm-ballistic-e2-reticle-sfp-black-matte.html $350 Ruger American Predator for around $450. The Rugers seem to be the most consistently accurate cheap rifles on the market. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 2:56:44 AM EDT
[#26]
Scout scope setups are 'tarded. Just get a magazine fed bolt action that has better reload speed and lets you cope with a scope mounted over the action and then throw a scope that has normal eye relief... much more better budget choices for regular scopes vs. scopes with scout eye relief and less weight mounted further out handles nicer, too.
Ruger American Compact 6907 (18", 6LB, CHF barrel, detachable mag fed, $400-$450) SWFA SS 2.5-10x32 (Light 9.5oz, tough, good glass, BDC reticle, Japanese MFG, $350) Leupold VX-Freedom 1.5-4x28 Scout (Light 9.6oz, USA MFG, decent glass, $350) Leupold VX-Freedom 2-7x33 Hunt (11.1oz, USA MFG, decent glass, $300) Vortex Pro Series Rings (Quality, good profile, 1.5oz, $50) If you're lucky, it'll shoot sub-MOA with easily available precision ammo... and if it doesn't, it won't be the optics' fault. Here's a review of a similar action: https://www.snipercentral.com/ruger-american-predator/ |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 5:59:22 AM EDT
[#27]
This has been a great thread. Many great inexpensive rifle & scope combo's have been bundled and recommended. Some of which are currently in stock. Others have done the homework. If you've been on the fence, take the bait and get some skin in game.
$800 for hardware is more than enough to be effective engaging breathing targets of any type. OP, Have a blast at the course. It sounds pretty legit. The basics have never failed. Please report back on your experience. Take care! |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 6:09:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Ruger American and SWFA Ultralight 2.5-10x32 in Burris low rings and 4 or 5 extra magazines and a m1 sling.
Probably cost about 1100.00 |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 8:04:25 AM EDT
[#29]
This thread reminds me of the time I attended an informal precision rifle match with pop-up Ivans at unknown distances.
I show up rocking my fixed 10x Bushnell 3200 on my beater home made AR while everyone else has $3k+ bolt rigs.. The match consisted of Ivans popping up randomly for 5 seconds from 0 to 800+ m. Before the match started it started raining and sleeting and fog moved in and target visibility became a problem. Long story short I didn't touch my turrets, I just used the holdovers I already knew on the reticle. Wind was pretty light so that I just doped based on feel and watching my bullet traces through the scope. I absolutely smoked the rest of the competitors. Like it wasn't even close. I killed so many Ivans they lost track while many of the "tacticalgarand44wtfbbq" Arfcommer types didn't hit a single target because the sleet was fucking up their gear queer crap and their OODA loop got jacked by a little bit of weather. Anyway long story short I'm not a "sniper" but I do have sharp eyes and know the dope on my rifles and inside 1000 m I can have lead in the air so fast it will make your head spin. It's the Indian not the arrow. Are you lugging a 20lb precision rifle and glass with you everywhere you go? The gear queers and the Arfcom "snipers" in this thread crack me up. Get real. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 8:10:00 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This thread reminds me of the time I attended an informal precision rifle match with pop-up Ivans at unknown distances. I show up rocking my fixed 10x Bushnell 3200 on my beater home made AR while everyone else has $3k+ bolt rigs.. The match consisted of Ivans popping up randomly for 5 seconds from 0 to 800+ m. Before the match started it started raining and sleeting and fog moved in and target visibility became a problem. Long story short I didn't touch my turrets, I just used the holdovers I already knew on the reticle. Wind was pretty light so that I just doped based on feel and watching my bullet traces through the scope. I absolutely smoked the rest of the competitors. Like it wasn't even close. I killed so many Ivans they lost track while many of the "tacticalgarand44wtfbbq" Arfcommer types didn't hit a single target because the sleet was fucking up their gear queer crap and their OODA loop got jacked by a little bit of weather. Anyway long story short I'm not a "sniper" but I do have sharp eyes and know the dope on my rifles and inside 1000 m I can have lead in the air so fast it will make your head spin. It's the Indian not the arrow. Are you lugging a 20lb precision rifle and glass with you everywhere you go? The gear queers and the Arfcom "snipers" in this thread crack me up. Get real. I am FAR from a gear queer and I'm not a sniper. Congrats on winning your match. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 8:16:03 AM EDT
[#31]
They should at least let you spend the limit set by the PRS Production division of $8700.
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Posted: 2/23/2021 8:27:14 AM EDT
[#32]
Been using a Leupold 3-9 on a Savage 11 .308 fir many years. Light accurate and reliable. Have a pile of deer to show for it. Low light, running, you name it.
Indian is much more important than the arrow . |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 8:41:51 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Looking at taking an “urban scout” sniper course later on in the year. Not a lot of info on the course yet but preliminary info: rifle and glass must cost or be valued at $800. What do you pick and why? I know prices are higher now, but I think “normal pre-pandemic price” would suffice. It has to mean $800 for the optic and $800 for the rifle. Some of the guys I shoot PRS with just a single rifle barrel sometimes is $800+ let alone the rest of the rifle...and don’t even get me started on Tangent, March and Zero Compromise optics... |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 8:48:56 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is more retarded is signing up for an entry level training class and 87% of them dicking with some fancy shit they have never trained with before. I love jumping around 100 to 800 yards with my fixed power 10x SWFA. Don't even think about messing with the power setting. Just dope and parallax. You won’t be dialing or adjusting parallax on 90% of the cheap ass scopes that show up to that class! “Ok everyone set your dope for 500m or just pick a random holdover and let it rip” |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 8:51:37 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why on Earth would that be a requirement for the class? How much is he charging? Ed Calderon, is the answer to your why, interesting man with an interesting past. He has a minimalist mind set of using that which is available and easy to procure. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 8:55:20 AM EDT
[#36]
What if it is worth $787 or $887? It will be nuts to hit $800 on the mark.
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Posted: 2/23/2021 8:57:36 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I got a 308 Howa bolt (barreled action) for less than 400, a couple years ago.... Howa is a great value for what you get. But still....$800? Really limits a person. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:15:32 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They should at least let you spend the limit set by the PRS Production division of $8700. 
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:24:29 AM EDT
[#39]
TC Compass ~250 ish post rebate
Rings of your pick ~100 450 left for scope of choice. Burris or Vortex likely. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:32:45 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Picking up a neighbor's 1960's deer rifle and making 600 yard shots is well into fantasy land. Even if you're lucky enough to pick one up that's been zeroed in the last decade, odds are there won't be any ammo for it around. If you want to train to do that, nobody's stopping you. I just think it's silly to go to a class to learn things using worse equipment than you already have. I've done exactly that with a few people. Check the scope and.mounts are tight and level. Pull the bolt and sight down the bore. Adjust scope so it's mechanically aligned with the bore. If you've got an obvious circular target to work with I can usually get within a few moa. Check the box of ammo, most have a basic drop table on them. Couple of sighter rounds to confirm zero. This can be done on rocks or dirt clumps if you lack a target. Send a few rounds down towards the plates at 600. Getting hits on the 2/3rds silhouette is usually done inside 10 rounds. Having some sort of subtensions in the reticle makes this a lot easier as most cheap scopes don't track all that well. Will this win a match? Not a Chance. Is this a way to get a partisan fighter effective with minimal time and expense? Yes. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:40:27 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a “unique” course that Ed Calderon and his sniper buddies are doing. May or may not happen, but sounds like a cool challenge. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Meh, I would not have a problem with that . Probably don't want to waste time or have frustration with the guy that shows up with his cheap ass mil surplus rifle and his " good as a Ziess/Luepold /Nightforce " BSA scope. It’s a “unique” course that Ed Calderon and his sniper buddies are doing. May or may not happen, but sounds like a cool challenge. Sounds like a course to show people that simple and cheap kit can be effective and kill you dead. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:45:20 AM EDT
[#42]
I picked up a Ruger American 308 16" threaded barrel used a few years back mostly as a suppressor host not thinking much about it from my LGS. It came with a literal no name 3-9x scope. I put it in a Magpul chassis with a magpul bipod. I think I paid $350 for the rifle/scope and $377 looking at my receipt for the magpul stock, bipod, and sling from primary arms about 2 years ago.
The thing is a fucking tack driver. Out to 200 yards (the farthest I've shot it so far) it is consistently sub-MOA. In fact it shoots considerably better than my 20" larue barrel precision build that has over $2500 in parts in it. I've shot them back to back multiple times using match ammo. It really pissed me the fuck off. Either the tolerance really stacked up in my favor on that ruger or against me something fierce in that AR build.  Since the Ruger wound up being a much more accurate rifle then I was expecting I'm going to replace the scope with a better quality mid-level scope that goes out to about 14x or so. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:53:44 AM EDT
[#43]
I wouldn't buy equipment to attend this class...seems like its geared around what you have in the safe already. Buying "cheap" gear to fit an arbitrary dollar cap is counter productive. If you dont have this already in hand I would look for another class.
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:53:54 AM EDT
[#44]
Mission dictates tactics, tactics dictate gear.
What's your mission? Urban scout/sniper is the course, but what is it training you to do? What mission are you going to utilize with these skills? Are you scouting out and engaging a force in an urban environment? Or are you scouting for supplies during a collapse in a town/city? Are you utilizing these skills during rule of law in the capacity of L/E, Special Forces/hitman? Or is this a chaos End of the World scenario? Failing your one of the above, which Is assume your not because you don't have gear issued to you, I'd assume you are a civilian. I'd also assume you are not looking to break any laws, so that leaves us with End of the World scenario. In a breakdown of society, your far more likely to need to scavenge for supplies then need to scout and dispatch a group of roving motorcycle thugs that are a threat. For this I would recommend a quality AR15 with a 1-6x or 1-8x ACSS reticle. Your primary goal is acquiring food, meds, etc. And break contact and/or eliminate threats. In an urban environment you are far more likely to encounter a threat around a blind corner of a building than at 600 yards. Why? Because the average person can't effectively be a threat at that distance (especially urbanites). Combined with the fact that there is ALOT of shit in cities, your 800 yard views just don't exist. So what will a 16" AR w a 1-6x do? Provide a relatively light weight weapon, effective from about 1 yard, out to 400 yards, possibly more if your spend more money and train, but for argument sake 400. With the ACSS you can make these hits without spending time making calculations. You won't be shooting 1" groups at 400 yards, but you don't need that. You need rounds on target. You get 30 rounds before reloading, and when you do, it's simple. If you think you need a 1MOA .308 bolt gun with a 30" barrel and 20x optic for "urban scouting" you need to seriously rethink what your doing. If you truly do need something beyond the platform I've laid out l, then your mission is probably completely different and your either an SF/LE/hitman, or your preparing for nefarious tactics once rule of law degrades. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 10:06:41 AM EDT
[#45]
I'm using a savage axis 2 and bushnell scope as a cheap-azz Match Rifle. I think the combo cost closer to 600.
Dead reliable and it'll be outshooting my sling hold for a while yet. The action is clunkier than my Mosin, I will admit that. Doesn't actually bother me, though. Accutriggers tend to go wonky if you adjust all the way light. Give it a half turn back up and they usually work great. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 10:23:49 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This thread reminds me of the time I attended an informal precision rifle match with pop-up Ivans at unknown distances. I show up rocking my fixed 10x Bushnell 3200 on my beater home made AR while everyone else has $3k+ bolt rigs.. The match consisted of Ivans popping up randomly for 5 seconds from 0 to 800+ m. Before the match started it started raining and sleeting and fog moved in and target visibility became a problem. Long story short I didn't touch my turrets, I just used the holdovers I already knew on the reticle. Wind was pretty light so that I just doped based on feel and watching my bullet traces through the scope. I absolutely smoked the rest of the competitors. Like it wasn't even close. I killed so many Ivans they lost track while many of the "tacticalgarand44wtfbbq" Arfcommer types didn't hit a single target because the sleet was fucking up their gear queer crap and their OODA loop got jacked by a little bit of weather. Anyway long story short I'm not a "sniper" but I do have sharp eyes and know the dope on my rifles and inside 1000 m I can have lead in the air so fast it will make your head spin. It's the Indian not the arrow. Are you lugging a 20lb precision rifle and glass with you everywhere you go? The gear queers and the Arfcom "snipers" in this thread crack me up. Get real. Seriously you must have shot against some atrocious shooters if they couldn’t engage targets that large with such a shitload of time. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 10:43:18 AM EDT
[#47]
I've seen Savage extractors fail. I've seen short-action cartridges jam in the long-action savages, in the field. I'll never forget many years ago, sitting with a buddy and he held for 300 yards on a 225-yard deer and shot over its back and proceeded to jam his Savage 7-08. When I saw that it was going to take more time to clear than the deer was going to give us, I asked him to stop shaking our stand, and shot the deer.
This doesn't mean I'd never own a Savage. I have one and like it, but, yeah, it got a Rifle Basix trigger on day one. As for cheap optics - if you can zero it, and it will hold zero, if it has a decent holdover reticle (BDC, MOA hashes, mildots, whatever), a guy with a basic 1" tube hunting scope (again, with a decent reticle that allows for holdovers) can do pretty well, at least out to 600 yards, maybe 800. Maybe further. I have a very old Remington Sportsman 78, a budget-stocked model 700 (that I restocked with a 700 ADL walnut stock, glass bedded) that I have a whopping total of $175 in (stock and rifle) and I added a set of Talley rings and a refurbished(!) Vortex Diamondback HP 3-12 with the BDC reticle. With good ammo it's a capable 300-400 yard hunting rifle. I have engaged steel out to 600 yards with the BDC reticle (again, not touching the turrets). Not counting the cleaning supplies it took to remove 20 years of gunk from the bore, I have $400 in the whole setup. Would I take that rifle to a class as described in the OP and manage to keep up? Yes. Is it ever my first choice, or would it ever be? No. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 11:13:44 AM EDT
[#48]
I was in law enforcement in the early/mid eighties in a small rural sheriff’s department. Four counties banded together and formed what they called SERT (Sheriff’s Emergency Responce Teams) basically rudimentary SWAT teams. We did a 40 hour training course put on by a local university. Those of us selected as our unit’s “Snipers” got an extra 8 hours training. Our department didn’t have a bolt action rifle, so I provided my own. It was a Remington 788 in 308 with a Weaver 4 power scope.
I still have it and would probably take this class with it although it wears a little better optic nowadays. The rifle was my Christmas present from my Dad for my 11th Christmas and I think it was $115. The scope on it now is a 15 year old Swarovski 3-12 with a TDS reticle. With FGMM 175s it’s actually a very effective package. If you take the original price of the rifle and the current value of the used scope, it should squeak in under $800.
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Posted: 2/23/2021 11:15:47 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This thread reminds me of the time I attended an informal precision rifle match with pop-up Ivans at unknown distances. I show up rocking my fixed 10x Bushnell 3200 on my beater home made AR while everyone else has $3k+ bolt rigs.. The match consisted of Ivans popping up randomly for 5 seconds from 0 to 800+ m. Before the match started it started raining and sleeting and fog moved in and target visibility became a problem. Long story short I didn't touch my turrets, I just used the holdovers I already knew on the reticle. Wind was pretty light so that I just doped based on feel and watching my bullet traces through the scope. I absolutely smoked the rest of the competitors. Like it wasn't even close. I killed so many Ivans they lost track while many of the "tacticalgarand44wtfbbq" Arfcommer types didn't hit a single target because the sleet was fucking up their gear queer crap and their OODA loop got jacked by a little bit of weather. Anyway long story short I'm not a "sniper" but I do have sharp eyes and know the dope on my rifles and inside 1000 m I can have lead in the air so fast it will make your head spin. It's the Indian not the arrow. Are you lugging a 20lb precision rifle and glass with you everywhere you go? The gear queers and the Arfcom "snipers" in this thread crack me up. Get real. I have a buddy with one of these. Home built 18” Odin barrel with a Burris AR556 prism. He pulled it out from behind the seat the other day and pretty much mag dumped a pmag loaded with wolf or tula at a 300 yard 10-12” plate and dang near hit it on every shot. He couldn’t hit it with his bull barrel 270 with a nice Burris that he was trying to sight in. I finally looked at him and said you know you can’t find no more of that 270, you could see it hitting close enough to kill shit. I had the same problem with my Grendel. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 11:17:37 AM EDT
[#50]
Savage model 10 TR and a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x.
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