Quoted: Dave, you can pretend all you want that no right of privacy exists.  I know otherwise.  Whether judicially or statutorily created, in your words, it exists.   The right existed long before Roe v. Wade in state and common law.  There is no "federal common law" and the only authority the Feds have derives from the Constitution and Congress' power to make laws.  The US Supreme Court interprets the Constitution and if they say a Constitutional privacy right exists, then it does.  And that isn't activism, it's merely acknowledging the reality of privacy rights as they've existed for decades before Roe v. Wade--i.e. state law and natural privacy rights.   You can also pretend that government is benevolent and will protect you from any evil associated with tracking your every move.  I don't believe it for a second.  Where did I advocate TRACKING anoyone? I advocated POSITIVE ID, that's it. And I was plenty clear about it too... You will be sorry as we all will if this ever comes to pass.   We can't know all of the pitfalls right now--there is no crystal ball.   But I damn guarantee that MORE government involvement in the life of every person in the country cannot be a good thing.  Again, all we're talking about is a functional ID system, as opposed to the broken POS that we have now. No more HS kids opening credit accounts in your name & running up bills that the CC company has to eat, causing rate inflation.... No more vote fraud causing folks like Kerry to get elected because 500 'activists' voted 10 times each... No more fake 'green cards' & companies 'mistakenly' hiring illegal immigrants because the docs were forged... All government does is run the central system that verifies the IDs. If you do, then you are a hard-core socialist.   Admit it.  No, I'm a conservative. Not everyone who is not a libertarian is a socialist... I never advocated government control of the economy, or 'travel papers' between states, just a simple system that replaces the mess we have now, and allows everyone to provide concrete proof that they are who they say they are....

"papers comrade"

And I'll say it again DAVE that your idea sucks for the following reasons:

I'm probably MORE likely to be the victim of an identity crime after a "national ID" system.

There will be a premium put upon being 'legit' to the system once the info is centralized.

Illegals, terrorists, and the like will demand, and the (black) market will fulfill the demand, that they have access to 'legit' identities.

No system is foolproof enough to keep my 'ID' from being stolen, counterfeited, or cloned.


That alone makes this proposal a boondoggle.


It is the decentralized nature of the current system that affords some level of protection now.

I don't like that my credit transactions give away my buying habits to anyone who cares to snoop, but at least if someone gets my CC number, I cancel it and no further harm can be done.

What happens when someone gets ALL of my relevant personal info from either using my 'ID card' or from it directly?

Quoted: Quoted: Here's a simple example: If you're so 'for' anonymity, then don't complain when your lack of responsibility for your identity makes you a victim of an identity crime... I'm probably MORE likely to be the victim of an identity crime after a "national ID" system. With the proper technology it becomes near-impossible. Forge a fingerprint, anyone? There will be a premium put upon being 'legit' to the system once the info is centralized.  A high enough one to stop the vast majority of problems. I'm less worried about deterring the spy or international terrorist (there are other ways to catch them) than I am about deterring the organized ID theft operations (some run by teenage kids, others by career criminals), or the Democratic Party 'Vote-o-Matic' crew.... Illegals, terrorists, and the like will demand, and the (black) market will fulfill the demand, that they have access to  'legit' identities.  The cost of forging IDs will go sky high, as you will have to be entered into the system, etc... Most illegal immigrants will not be able to pay. Spies & top-shelf terrorists, yes... But that's no worse than the present No system is foolproof enough to keep my 'ID' from being stolen, counterfeited, or cloned.  Diminishing returns. Just because it isn't 100% doesn't mean that we should stay at 20%. I'd settle for 99% (even 90%) which is what the system I'm describing would provide That alone makes this proposal a boondoggle.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Here's a simple example: If you're so 'for' anonymity, then don't complain when your lack of responsibility for your identity makes you a victim of an identity crime... I'm probably MORE likely to be the victim of an identity crime after a "national ID" system. With the proper technology it becomes near-impossible. Forge a fingerprint, anyone? There will be a premium put upon being 'legit' to the system once the info is centralized.  A high enough one to stop the vast majority of problems. I'm less worried about deterring the spy or international terrorist (there are other ways to catch them) than I am about deterring the organized ID theft operations (some run by teenage kids, others by career criminals), or the Democratic Party 'Vote-o-Matic' crew.... Illegals, terrorists, and the like will demand, and the (black) market will fulfill the demand, that they have access to  'legit' identities.  The cost of forging IDs will go sky high, as you will have to be entered into the system, etc... Most illegal immigrants will not be able to pay. Spies & top-shelf terrorists, yes... But that's no worse than the present No system is foolproof enough to keep my 'ID' from being stolen, counterfeited, or cloned.  Diminishing returns. Just because it isn't 100% doesn't mean that we should stay at 20%. I'd settle for 99%, which is what the system I'm describing would provide That alone makes this proposal a boondoggle.

And if you believe that the US government can manage this with 99% reliabilty, then you are high.


From a Ron Paul article:

"A national identification card, in whatever form it may take, will allow the federal government to inappropriately monitor the movements and transactions of every American. History shows that governments inevitably use the power to monitor the actions of people in harmful ways.

Those who are willing to allow the government to establish a Soviet-style internal passport system because they think it will make us safer are terribly mistaken. Subjecting every citizen to surveillance and "screening points" will actually make us less safe, not in the least because it will divert resources away from tracking and apprehending terrorists and deploy them against innocent Americans!

The federal government has no constitutional authority to require law-abiding Americans to present any form of identification before they engage in private transactions. Instead of forcing all Americans to prove to law enforcement that they are not terrorists, we should be focusing our resources on measures that really will make us safer. For starters, we should take a look at our dangerously porous and unguarded borders. We have seen already this summer how easy it is for individuals possibly seeking to do us harm to sneak across the border into our country. In July, Pakistani citizen Farida Goolam Mahomed Ahmed, who is on the federal watch list, reportedly crossed illegally into Texas from Mexico. She was later arrested when she tried to board a plane in New York, but she should have never been able to cross our border in the first place!"


I don't want to live in the US equivalent of the USSR.


And I'm no libertarian asshole

Quoted: Why do you want, or not want  a national I.D. card or something like that? I know I do not want anything like it. I don't even want a S.S. number. Poll is on the way.

I will happily apply for one .......................... Just so long as it's attached to
a nationwide CCW permit

Dave,

Moreover, you naiveté is PUNISHING to the brain.  

If you belive that once such a high premium is placed upon being legit, that crackers, hackers, and other lowlifes won't successfully and relatively cheaply fill the enourmous market created, then you simply aren't able to defer to the true experts in the field.

Please do some research regarding the current infrastructure that will support this mess.

www.csl.sri.com/users/neumann/insiderisks.html#138  and scroll up for more on the subject.  

Quoted: Dave, Moreover, you naiveté is PUNISHING to the brain.   If you belive that once such a high premium is placed upon being legit, that crackers, hackers, and other lowlifes won't successfully and relatively cheaply fill the enourmous market created, then you simply aren't able to defer to the true experts in the field. Please do some research regarding the current infrastructure that will support this mess. www.csl.sri.com/users/neumann/insiderisks.html#138  and scroll up for more on the subject.

Right now, you don't need a hacker or a cracker, all you need is some card stock & a printer...

Anything is preferrable to the current system...

I'd rather have ID fraud be like convincingly counterfeiting 'new-issue' money than pirating computer software (which is about where it is right now)....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Here's a simple example: If you're so 'for' anonymity, then don't complain when your lack of responsibility for your identity makes you a victim of an identity crime... I'm probably MORE likely to be the victim of an identity crime after a "national ID" system. With the proper technology it becomes near-impossible. Forge a fingerprint, anyone? There will be a premium put upon being 'legit' to the system once the info is centralized.  A high enough one to stop the vast majority of problems. I'm less worried about deterring the spy or international terrorist (there are other ways to catch them) than I am about deterring the organized ID theft operations (some run by teenage kids, others by career criminals), or the Democratic Party 'Vote-o-Matic' crew.... Illegals, terrorists, and the like will demand, and the (black) market will fulfill the demand, that they have access to  'legit' identities.  The cost of forging IDs will go sky high, as you will have to be entered into the system, etc... Most illegal immigrants will not be able to pay. Spies & top-shelf terrorists, yes... But that's no worse than the present No system is foolproof enough to keep my 'ID' from being stolen, counterfeited, or cloned.  Diminishing returns. Just because it isn't 100% doesn't mean that we should stay at 20%. I'd settle for 99%, which is what the system I'm describing would provide That alone makes this proposal a boondoggle.   And if you believe that the US government can manage this with 99% reliabilty, then you are high. From a Ron Paul article: "A national identification card, in whatever form it may take, will allow the federal government to inappropriately monitor the movements and transactions of every American. History shows that governments inevitably use the power to monitor the actions of people in harmful ways. Those who are willing to allow the government to establish a Soviet-style internal passport system because they think it will make us safer are terribly mistaken. Subjecting every citizen to surveillance and "screening points" will actually make us less safe, not in the least because it will divert resources away from tracking and apprehending terrorists and deploy them against innocent Americans! The federal government has no constitutional authority to require law-abiding Americans to present any form of identification before they engage in private transactions. Instead of forcing all Americans to prove to law enforcement that they are not terrorists, we should be focusing our resources on measures that really will make us safer. For starters, we should take a look at our dangerously porous and unguarded borders. We have seen already this summer how easy it is for individuals possibly seeking to do us harm to sneak across the border into our country. In July, Pakistani citizen Farida Goolam Mahomed Ahmed, who is on the federal watch list, reportedly crossed illegally into Texas from Mexico. She was later arrested when she tried to board a plane in New York, but she should have never been able to cross our border in the first place!" I don't want to live in the US equivalent of the USSR. And I'm no libertarian asshole

And once again, you seem fixated on 'tracking' and 'internal passports'...

I'm talking about a more secure, conclusive ID for transactions that currently require ID, and a few (like voting) that should. NEVER ONCE have I advocated tracking people or stopping them at checkpoints to verify ID....

And remember, I'm not advocating tracking every citizen, and every transaction they make...

I'm not worried about you Dave (hehe, HAL9000), it's the millions of people out there who waste my oxygen that would baaaaaa for the National ID to become something the Gestapo could have only dreamed about.

The speed with which government and businesses would abuse such a card would cause our heads to spin, millions would DEMAND it's expansion into non-identity matters.  Good intentions and privacy provisions would go out the window in the name of expedience, security, and the gotta-have-it-now mindset.  For the children, heath information would be encoded.  To prevent discrimination, race would be encoded.  To prevent fraud, credit cards would be encoded.  Then someone like Hillary would start to think what else could be done with all of that centralized data, hmm...

The proliferation of databases and increasing capability to extract information from them is something to be concerned about.  It's not about tinfoil, it's not about legal bickering, and it's not about irrational fears.  Besides, do the database experts at the Watertown bureau of motor vehicles give you any confidence?

I am not a number.

Quoted: Most definately a GOOD thing... Do you LIKE people being able to steal your identity because they know your SSN and address? Do you LIKE the fact that our 'immigration ID' is so easily counterfeited that any 3rfd-world moron can buy one? Do you LIKE having to carry a CCW, Driver's License, Social Security Card, and such when you could have ONE card hold it all? Seriously, we NEED a national ID. It NEEDS to have a biometric identifier, PIN number, and digitized version of the printed information stored on an encrypted smart-card chip to prevent fraud... And we NEED it yesterday... Enough with the tinfoil about 'Why then the Govt could track you'... Guess what? They can track you now, it just costs them more money... Grow up & lay off the tinfoil...

Oh, UP YOURS!

You LIKE the idea of making it EASIER for the government to track you?

You're willing to sacrifice some liberty for so called safety, eh? I've heard about YOUR type...

I'll take my chances with the risk of identity theft or NOT being able to get credit and being annonymous whilst John Kerry's jack booted thugs relocate your "grown up" ass to a "reeducation camp". Hey, I've got an even better idea! Why not tattoo a HUGE 666 and a bar code on your head NOW! Why wait? Mr. National ID man....

I'll keep my tinfoil right where I need it. On my baked potato.

It seems to me that DaveA can't understand. A national ID might start off as a good thing. But within 4 years of its implementation it would be used as an internal passport from state to state. All the bad stuff will come to pass very soon, if a national ID is implemented.P.S. DAVE-A really does sound like a commie

I think Dave should fill us in on where he sees the ancillary regulations going. Does it have to be carried at all times? Exhibited on demand? Assume you have one; what's the penalty for going cash-only and refusing to carry it?

Quoted: It seems to me that DaveA can't understand. A national ID might start off as a good thing. But within 4 years of its implementation it would be used as an internal passport from state to state. All the bad stuff will come to pass very soon, if a national ID is implemented.P.S. DAVE-A really does sound like a commie

ACtually, I would say he sounds like a realist.

Like I stated earilier, you, I and Dave A already have 2 or 3 national ID cards.

WHy not consolidate it all into one?  If you think you're not tracked from birth to death already you are sadly mistaken.  You can try to live outside of society all you want, but you will accomplish nothing and get lost.


But living in the radar with millions is an easy place to hide.

Sgtar15

Quoted: I think Dave should fill us in on where he sees the ancillary regulations going. Does it have to be carried at all times? Exhibited on demand? Assume you have one; what's the penalty for going cash-only and refusing to carry it?

I wish I had thought of that.Ok dave, we are calling you out. We want details. How do you enforce it ? When do you carry it? What are the penalties for refusal, comrad?

I've already got 2 of 'em..

- .MIL  ID

- passport

Quoted: I've already got 2 of 'em.. - .MIL  ID - passport

3...you forgot SSN

Quoted: Quoted: I've already got 2 of 'em.. - .MIL  ID - passport 3...you forgot SSN

Sarge, I think there's a big difference between an identifier (which describes not only your SSN, but your name, face and voice) and an identification card.

umm, what he (^^^)  said  

I know sgtar15. I have a draft card, a birth certificate, and a SS card. I don't like any of them, so why would I want to have them all combined into 1 card. Listen to red5, he is smart.

Quoted: I know sgtar15. I have a draft card, a birth certificate, and a SS card. I don't like any of them, so why would I want to have them all combined into 1 card. Listen to red5, he is smart.

Go ahead and avoid the wave...I'll ride on top of it...


Sgatr15

Quoted: If I could put my CCW, Driver's Licence, Social Security, Voting Card...maybe Costco card..........onto this and it would keep Illegals out......well maybe............ But then some asshat could steal my card and charge Hot Dogs without my knowledge. We have all this in place right now and they let people flow freely across our borders.  INS and local law cannot talk about this for fear they would break the law...what makes people think it would help?

All the more reason to implant it into your body in chip form, Komrade!

This is America isn't it?

Quoted: Only if I get national concealed carry.

+1
Agreed

Quoted: WHy not consolidate it all into one?  If you think you're not tracked from birth to death already you are sadly mistaken.  You can try to live outside of society all you want, but you will accomplish nothing and get lost. But living in the radar with millions is an easy place to hide. Sgtar15

Probably the only thing that keeps the .gov from tracking every single thing we do is the gross inefficiency of the feds.  Anything we do to make it easier on them is a bad idea.

Ok guys, I'm going to side with normally-misguided Dave_A a little here. [shock, horror, yes, I know!]

What Dave_A originally posted was a valid point - the need for a proper and secure form of identification.  I agree that this is a valid need, and in fact is central to any efforts to clear this country of illegal aliens, which of course no politician wants to do.

The main problem with a secure ID is expansion of its use beyond the original implementation.  I think any real security efforts in this area must be implemented by the state, not the feds, and in fact should be done through the drivers license program and state issued ID, since these mechanisms are already in place.

It is possible to design a double blind inquiry system where a voting center, bank, employer, etc, could submit your ID # to a state authorization center and have it come back as authentic or not, without tracking at the state level who authorized the inquiry and who the inquiry was about.

So, in some ways this would be a good thing.  Go to the bank, open an account and they run your ID to make sure you are who you say you are.  Go to vote, they do the same thing.  Apply for any .gov benefits, same process.  In this respect I think Dave_A would agree with me.

The problem then becomes the insatiable desire of bureaucrats to snoop into our lives who will try to find ways to store, track and catalog those inquiries.  They'll claim it's for accuracy checks, or to fight terrorism, or somehow make it "for the chilllllllllldren."  And they will try to turn it into a 24 hour surveillance system, allowing .gov employees to simply punch in your ID number and track every instance your number has been verified against the database.  Then they'll try to expand the use of the database - swiping your ID card when you fly, or take more than $1000 out of the bank, or rent a car or a storage unit, or when you leave the state, or when you buy a pack of cigarettes or a bottle of wine, etc.

This is what Dave_A either chooses or is unable to see.  The .gov has a perfect record of "mission creep."  The social security number was never intended as ID and they even printed that on cards for decades, until they realized it actually came in pretty handy for tracking people.  So, until a double blind system could be put in place, and there were physical limitations built into the system, so that personally identifying data simply could not be extracted despite the will of bureaucrats, I would oppose any form of ID system that Dave_A supports.

Dave - unlike lonesomehawk, I don't think you're a commie, but I do think you're naive.

Quoted: Ok guys, I'm going to side with normally-misguided Dave_A a little here. [shock, horror, yes, I know!] What Dave_A originally posted was a valid point - the need for a proper and secure form of identification.  I agree that this is a valid need, and in fact is central to any efforts to clear this country of illegal aliens, which of course no politician wants to do. The main problem with a secure ID is expansion of its use beyond the original implementation.  I think any real security efforts in this area must be implemented by the state, not the feds, and in fact should be done through the drivers license program and state issued ID, since these mechanisms are already in place. It is possible to design a double blind inquiry system where a voting center, bank, employer, etc, could submit your ID # to a state authorization center and have it come back as authentic or not, without tracking at the state level who authorized the inquiry and who the inquiry was about. So, in some ways this would be a good thing.  Go to the bank, open an account and they run your ID to make sure you are who you say you are.  Go to vote, they do the same thing.  Apply for any .gov benefits, same process.  In this respect I think Dave_A would agree with me. The problem then becomes the insatiable desire of bureaucrats to snoop into our lives who will try to find ways to store, track and catalog those inquiries.  They'll claim it's for accuracy checks, or to fight terrorism, or somehow make it "for the chilllllllllldren."  And they will try to turn it into a 24 hour surveillance system, allowing .gov employees to simply punch in your ID number and track every instance your number has been verified against the database.  Then they'll try to expand the use of the database - swiping your ID card when you fly, or take more than $1000 out of the bank, or rent a car or a storage unit, or when you leave the state, or when you buy a pack of cigarettes or a bottle of wine, etc. This is what Dave_A either chooses or is unable to see.  The .gov has a perfect record of "mission creep."  The social security number was never intended as ID and they even printed that on cards for decades, until they realized it actually came in pretty handy for tracking people.  So, until a double blind system could be put in place, and there were physical limitations built into the system, so that personally identifying data simply could not be extracted despite the will of bureaucrats, I would oppose any form of ID system that Dave_A supports. Dave - unlike lonesomehawk, I don't think you're a commie, but I do think you're naive.

I've been reading this thread trying to figure my stance on this issue since I dont know alot about it. I do feel it would be a very good idea to have an unimpeachable,fraud proof ID system in place , primarily to thwart terrorism.

But the concerns that have been aired about possible misuse by both gov and private entities are valid. So we have to approach this system carefully. I think Taxman's idea of a double blind system may offer the annoynimity and protection from misuse.

On principle I'm not against a National ID card however if it does become law there MUST be rock solid privacy protection in place before it begins.

At this time there are 38 people on this board that think its a good idea.

Man?  What? We are on a pro 2nd weapons forum.  The leavening effect of communist never ceases to amaze me.

Wake up and grow a pair will ya!!  People who supprt this kind of pinko crap on our side are the same ones that will gladly hand you name out when the "theys" come knocking.  All the more proof why you should be carefull the company you keep.

Just hand over your childrens freedom.

Oh, I forgot, comunism is dead.  Nevermind.

Make me sick!!!!

[Col Klink] "Let me see your papers alt man!" [/Col Klink]

fuck a natnl ID card

Who says they are going to issue a new card in order to set up the system?

www.epinions.com/pr-Sony_FIU_600_Puppy_Fingerprint_Reader/display_~full_specs



These devices are already becoming commonplace to secure computer access.  You can't forget your password and your password cannot be hacked like any other password.

Starting at less than $80.00 retail they will soon be appearing more an more places and used to establish identity for all kinds of transactions.   Biometric identification is coming and you won't be getting a new National ID card with your picture on the front.

Nobody "wants" a National ID Card when you already have a thumb.

I don't want to beat the horse to death but,. No matter how good a national ID would start out as, in the end it wouldbe corrupted by the gov. Bad laws made by good people, can be used by bad and good people alike.P.S. I still think DAVE-A is a commie.