good shot.. some people just need to be put in their place. and sometimes it takes a verbal backhand in public. besides women who know they are attractive have a very big dislike of being called ugly. some sort of hit to their frail egos..

Take two humans

Drop them in the 'wild'

Tell one no 'meat'

Tell the other no 'plants'

Which will die from malnutrition or starvation first?

The no 'meat' one

Look at eskimo's, until recently they had a diet something like 98-99% meat and they survived in one of the worse places for habitation.  Now its not for the squemish, but a diet of meat provides all the dietary requirements, you just gotta eat the whole critter.  Guts, livers, lungs, hearts, kidneys, well you get the picture.  

Did the domestication of grains cause us to settle down, or did the domestication of animals give us a chance to settle down to domesticate grains?  

You get more energy per pound with a meat based diet, that provides 'leisure' time.

I met this vegan once. She was arguing her views with me, stating she does not eat [i]anything[/i] made with animal products... I waited til she was in the middle of her meal, and pointed out that the CHEESE she was eating was made from animal products, as well as the CHEESY POOFS (I forget the brand, but I read the package) were cooked in animal fat!

She kept eating and told me "those were okay"...

What BS.

"New Age Girl" by Deadeye Dick keeps running through my mind as I read this thread

My knowledge of pre-historic people is sorely lacking.  However, it is my understanding that insects constituted a good portion of their protien intake.  While they ate mostly vegetables, they also consumed rabbits and fish seasonally.

Do militant vegetarians consider insects (including grubs and beetles) meat?

while we're on this subject, where does Fungi stand? What about fungivores?

Has anyone mentioned the whole 'hunter/gatherer' thing?

My view is that humans are OMNIVORES.  Nothing more, nothing less.  You can choose to eat only plants, and that's all fine and dandy, and you can be quite healthy.  I prefer to eat plant and animal.  

Like several have put it, let me eat what I want, eat what you want, and let's not bother each other about it!  ;)

well the cheeze is made from a product the animal produces and getting it causes the animal no harm so its ok. thats her logic. and about the poofs.... *shrugs* no idea. me... i just had a semi-tasty bacon cheeze burger from Burger King (where the pretend to grill them)

First of all, you don't know a damn thing about me.  There's no need to get personal in a debate like this.

Second of all, I haven't ignored anyone's evidence.  I've responded to as much as I can, you know I'm not getting paid to debate the entire AR15.com membership!

As for your absurd argument about "liguivores", well it's quite fallacious.  What you are doing is taking the argument out to the extreme, and then attacking it there.

About your claim about archeological evidence, well I disagree on the facts.  The paintings probably do not represent the everday life of a human living 10,000 years ago.  Instead, it probably represents the rare lucky day when they actually were able to bring down an animal.  Also, these paintings are found relatively late on the time scale of humanity--around the neolithic and paleolithic era.  By this time, humans worked with fire, and were able to cook food.  But, the tens and tens of thousands of years that humans existed before this time, were without fire, and without other advanced tools.  During these many thousands of years of pre-historic Man, there was probably only rarely any meat being eaten.

No, just showing that the logic of your argument holds no water.


[b]Exactly what evidence do you base your "probabilities" on??[/b]

It seems you have a certain mindset (humans=herbivores) and you disgard or minimalize ANY evidence that disputes your preconcieved ideas. To me that means you're very  close-minded and irrational - oops there I go again.

I await your direct evidence in support of your regular use of "very rare" and "probably not" with regards to human meat consumption.

I find that vegetarians who burble about how "humans weren't designed to eat meat" have to dissemble, ignore, prevaricate, fabricate, and twist things about as much as Michael Bellesiles did to get to his conclusion that guns played a very tiny role in colonial America. . . .

Oh yeah?  Which would you rather be:  (a) a free-range grazer, allowed to roam around the prairie for a year or two before being hauled into a nice comfy pen, fattened up on grain, and then, one fine day, BLAM! you're dead and carved up for roasts;  or, (b) confined to a pen for your entire existence, with a horrible mechanical THING clamped onto your nipples twice daily, yanking and pulling until it feels like your tits are gonna fall off, until eventually, when you stop producing enough milk, you're finally snuffed and served up at the Sizzler.

Pick one. [:D]  Moo.

I am a serial cow killer!

Hey, I have no beef with vegetarians. [Think about that one for a sec ;-)]

Ahhh, meat-eating: one of my favorite subjects beside ARs, embedded systems and classical music. (How's that for a weird combo?)

Vegetarians at least skew the demand-side of the meat market so that the price of nice double-cut NY steaks are quite reasonable. (In my area: Costco NY steaks are around $-4 to $5+, depending on size.  Hell, that's what 2 BigMacs go for - screw it, bring me the grill and the Heinz 57!)

I was once accosted going into Costo by a veggie sandal-type. Girl'd've been kinda cute if she got rid of the hippiewear, styled her hair a bit, and closed her stooopid mouth.  At the time, I was eating one of Costco's great $1.50 all-beef hotdog + Coke "meal deals", and quite enjoying myself. I was also wearing a nice leather jacket, and some nice Cole-Haan loafers.  The conversation went something like this (quotes are reasonably approximate):

Girl: "Sir, don't you know a cow died for your meal?  Meat is murder!"

Me:  "Really? It took a whole cow to make this hot dog for me?  Wow, I'm flattered I've got a whole cow to myself.  Perhaps I can get a consulting gig with Hebrew National to raise their efficiency, though - and get more than one hot dog out of a cow."

Girl: "But how can you eat death?"

Me: "With catsup, mustard, onions and relish. And these are Kosher dogs: at least someone's God is on my side."

Girl: "Do you know about the suffering involved?"

Me: "You bet. I was so hungry before I got here my gut ached."

Girl: "So! How many cows have to die for you?"

Me: "Dunno, but I've got a good start. See the T-Bird there? Leather seats. See this nice jacket? Leather, not nauga. See these nice loafers? Leather, baby. I'm a friggin' serial cow killer! Total cow combustion! And since it's not politically correct to discriminate, I eat pork too!"

Girl: (walks away, almost in tears, like I killed her kitten)

Me:  (half hour later, walking out - I wave my four-pack of NY steaks at her, with a cheery smile).

Life can be FUN-FUN-FUN!


Bill Wiese
San Mateo, CA

No, you are taking my argument out to an extreme and attacking it there.  This is a logical fallacy called a straw man attack.  It's funny that you are talking about how important logic is, yet you can't even get yourself straight.  Nobody ever said anything about a "liquivore", except for you.




Exactly what evidence do you base your statement on?  You were the one who first posted the following statement:



So now I should demand "direct evidence" that supports your claim, just like you demand direct evidence from me.



Here we go with another first class stellar logical performance.  Ever heard of something called [i]ad hominem[/i]?  The truth is that you know nothing about me whatsoever.  Ah yes and I'm so sorry that I am "disregarding" and "minimalizing" every single post.  I forgot that it's my job to debate the entire AR15.com membership on this topic.

Oh, since we're ON this subject, this was from alt-cult-of-the-dead-cow newsgroup...

...........................................
Some ass named Jai wrote:

> Meat-eaters have higher blood pressure,
> are more hypertensive and violent. Public
> funds are used for research and treatment.
> Everyone is forced to pay the price of
> violence and crime.  Meat-eaters hurt
> themselves, their families and others.
> Meat-eaters hurt everyone.
> Meat-eaters hurt everyone.
> Meat-eaters hurt everyone.

My brother-in-beef wrote:
..............................

AND WE'RE DAMN PROUD OF IT T00, Y0U ST00PID FR00T L00P.

After reading Jai-I-have-no-clue's lame-assed, crap filled, VEGATUBULZ R PE0PUL T00 message for the 10,000th time in the last month, I was
inspired to leave the house and make a dramatic change in my eating habits.

As I pulled up to the McDonald's drive-thru and gazed at the death-infested menu which was so obviously responsible for breast cancer, arthritis, Erik Estrada, racism, and every tragedy in the last 9,000,000 years, Jai's words really touched me and I had a change of heart.

Instead of my usual "Can I have a #3 combo with a coke, please?", I shouted,

"Y0 BITCH! I WANT A FUKN QUADRO-P0UNDER W1TH N0 FUKN VEGETABULZ 0R SH*T THAT GR0WZ 0N TREEZ!"

"OK, sir, you wanted a Quarter Pounder, just plain, is that correct?"

"N0 BITCH! I SAID I WANTED A FUKN QUADR0-0UNDER! GET IT RIGHT 0R DIE!"

(quiet laughter heard through speaker)

"A what pounder??!"

"A FUKN QUADR0-P0UNDER!"

"Uh.. I don't think we have that. Are you sure you don't mean a Quarter Pounder?"

"N0 I D0N'T MEEN A FUKN MEEZLY ASS QUARTER P0UNDER! HERE'Z WHAT I WANT - TWO FUKN D0UBLE QUARTER P0UNDERZ PUT T0GETHER TO MAKE ONE QUADR0 P0UNDER!"

"Ooohhh.. you want *2* double quarter pounders then?"

"N0 BITCH! I WANT ONE FUKN QUADR0 P0UNDER! TAKE THE 2 D0UBLEZ, PUT THEM T0GETHER AND GIMME ONE QUADR0! U G0T IT YET, BRAINIAK?"

(more laughter and employees looking out the back entrance window...)

"Oh! OK... I think we can do that. Would you like cheese on that?"

"FUK N0 BITCH! I WANT 4 H0T SLABZ 0F C0W DEATH 0N A BUN WITH N0 FUCKING  HIPPIE-ASS VEGETABULZ! I ALS0 D0N'T WANT ANY FUKING LAME VEGAN FRIES 0R ANY TYPE 0F RECYCLED PACKAGING. N0 CUP, N0 BAG, N0 WRAPPERS... PUT THE SHIT 0N THE WIND0W C0UNTER THINGY AND I'LL TAKE IT. AND TELL JAI T0 G0 FUK A C0C0NUT T00!"

"Who?!"

"FUK IT, GIMME THAT WHICH IS THE S0URCE 0F ALL EVIL... N0W!"

"Thank you. Please drive to the 2nd window."

For the record, I got my fucking Quadro Pounder and it rocked. I am faxing McDonald's tomorrow and demanding that this awesome item be
permanently added to every McDonald's menu around the world.

I'm a meat eater: I'm hypertensive, I'm violent.

And if you get in between me and a plate of animal death, I will fucking kill your pathetic ass and then go kill some trees in order to build a coffin to bury you in.

DETH IS IMMINENT. THE EARTH MUST DIE. MEAT EATERS ARE THE MAJ0RITY AND WE'RE FUKIN PISSED. GIVE US WHAT WE WANT 0R BE PREPARED T0 FACE THE WRATH.

...........................................



Enjoy!

Bill Wiese
San Mateo, CA

ahh, didnet get the vegan reference.. mabey they are from Vega? [;)] so they would rather let the animal waste it on the ground than putting it to some useful use?

"Rabbit Food" is for RABBITS!!!  Last time I checked, we were at the TOP of the food chain!

"If it ain't bleedin', it's burnt."

I would like to see them (vegetarians and vegans), try and convince lions, tigers, alligators, etc. that animals were not meant to be eaten.

Same goes with other creatures eating their prey (i.e. Spiders eating insects).

I don't know who Bill Wiese is but I'm starting to like him!

Excuse me while I back up over this dead horse one more time...


LOGICAL FALLACY: Fallacy of Distraction from Ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam).
Plain idiocy! The extreme effort vegetarians have today in selecting the right mixture of plants to supply all nutritional needs DOES NOT imply humans subsisted on plants for "thousands of years".
For a second time (and last time) I'll ask you to support this ridiculous statement with evidence.
[b]Provide EVIDENCE that humans subsisted on a plant-based diet (no meat) for "thousands of years".[/b]


LOGICAL FALLACY: Bait-and-switch.
Okay, so now you change your tune...
NOW you say humans are "designed" to "rarely" consume meat.
First it was that plants provide "ALL" nutritional requirements, now it's meats are ok if consumed "rarely".
[b]Regardless, provide EVIDENCE that humans "rarely" ate meat[/b]


LOGICAL FALLACIES: Begging the question and Non-sequitur.
More idiocy!! We are slow, there for we eat plants?!?
To summarize your statements here: Humans are plant-eaters because humans are plant-eaters... Thus sayeth ump45!
Well done Sherlock!!


LOGICAL FALLACY: Fallacy of Distraction From Ignorance and Begging the question.
Sheer idiocy! Just because YOU can't hunt, that means NO ONE CAN?!?
Once again, Humans can't feed their tribes on meat - BECAUSE UMP45 SAYS SO?!?


LOGICAL FALLACIES: Post-hoc Causal Fallacy and Non-sequitur.
Even more idiocy!!!
According to your "logic", plants are easy to eat, therefore our bodies are adapted to eating only plants?!?

- - - continued - - -

- - - continued - - -


LOGICAL FALLACIES: Circular definition and selective use of Appeal to Authority.
Not all plants are "healthy" for us. Vegetarian diets are notorious for lacking essential nutrients found in abundance in meats (e.g. B12).
The "entire medical establishment" know this (so in THAT sense they support your position) but also they profit from sickness (so in THAT sense they don't help your postion)??


LOGICAL FALLACIES: False Analogy and Fallacy of Distraction.
Obesity, hypercholesterolemia and diabetes are all known genetic disorders and NOT a result of eating meat.
[b]So the list goes on and on and on... and so does you use of logical fallacies.[/b]


LOGICAL FALLACY: Fallacy of Distraction from Ignorance.
You disagree with the facts I present because you THINK humans "probably" ate meat only rarely. But you provide NO EVIDENCE to dispute the archeological evidence I referred to.


No, what I used is called [b]"reductio ad absurdum"[/b] which is a standard tool of logic to show the absurdity of a claim when taken to its logical conclusion.
A "straw man" argument is like when YOU claimed meat is bad your health because high cholesterol is bad for one's health and can lead to heart disease.


Yes, I do know about "ad hominem" and I use it often!

Once I know who I'm debating and they have so  discredited themselves through their idiotic rantings, I find nothing wrong with properly labelling them for what they are. [;D]

Yes, I don't know you personally, but I do know you haven't a clue about what you're talking about when you rant about humans being plant-eaters for most of our human history - or at least until fire was discovered - or they only at meat "rarely" - or they were too stupid to hunt - or human bodies are "designed" to live on a diet of plants - or... whatever [whacko]

The_Macallan:

Every single one of your responses is obnoxious and absurd.  I can see you had fun searching through google and finding a list of different types of fallacies to throw around.  Too bad none of them actually relate to anything I've written.

I don't know why you are so hostile, but I guarantee if you tried to pull this kind of stuff to my face, your teeth would be smashed in the ground with a nice taste of asphalt mixed with blood.

Cheers...

Yeah, flaming feeble-minded simpletons like you is what I live for [pyro][:K]



[beer] And there we have it folks...

Unable to defend his prattling gibberish [b]ump45[/b] calls me "hostile" for pointing out all his nonsensical ramblings.

In the face of my logical and rational dissection of his vegetarian jabberings, [b]ump45[/b] has just shown his puddle-deep intelligence and dim-witted abilities to debate the issues. [%|]

[b]ump45[/b] has run out of rational ideas to support is idiocy and has simply resorted to threats of physical violence!! [stick]

WHOOO-HOOO!!




Mission Accomplished.[kill]

You are full of so much shit, it's hilarious.  There's nothing rational or logical about your hysterical rantings.

The debate was over once you started in with your flame-antics.  It's quite obvious that your intention is not to be serious, but to basically just try to put me down at all costs.  Why would I participate in that?

You are evil incarnate. :-D

I tell you, your arguments are so right they're almost evangelistic!

*recreates the scene in Patch Adams where they end up at the meat convention*

Pork Packers! Bull shippers! LEND ME YOUR STEERS!

NOW IS THE TIME FOR COW!!!!!

EAT COW! EAT COW! EAT COW! EAT COW! EAT COW! EAT COW!

My teeth usually make short order of a nice large steak :)



Really, what about people who herded sheep.  Didn't cain raise sheep, one of the first humans on earth?  How about cattle?  It's not like they just sprung up in the last few years.  They are easy killin meat machines.  How about snares, sheesh how hard is it to make a pungi stick type trap.  

Yes, but that's after it's been cooked and processed.  You could not bite through the thick and tough hide of an animal.  Your teeth are not designed to rip and tear.



Well, the earliest settlements didn't occur until at most around 4 thousand years ago.  Before settlements, and agriculture, there were no domesticated animals.  So, it's really only been recently that humans have had the ability to eat domesticated sheep and cattle.  Before 4 thousand years ago, there is a large expanse of time (tens and tens of thousands of years, maybe even hundreds of thousands of years) in which there was no civilization whatsoever.  No agriculture, no settlements, no domesticated animals.

Now that's funny!

"Well, the earliest settlements didn't occur until at most around 4 thousand years ago.  Before settlements, and agriculture, there were no domesticated animals.  So, it's really only been recently that humans have had the ability to eat domesticated sheep and cattle.  Before 4 thousand years ago, there is a large expanse of time (tens and tens of thousands of years, maybe even hundreds of thousands of years) in which there was no civilization whatsoever.  No agriculture, no settlements, no domesticated animals."

You are wrong here.  Civilization as it were has been around for oh 4-5 thousand years.  Dogs have been domesticated for 15-20k (or more)years.  Cattle and sheep/goats for about 10k.  Horses are relatively late development 5k or so.  

So did having a ready source of a high-energy food (meat) lead to the development of civilization, IE the ability to stay in one place long enough to plant crops and cultivate grain?

Why do humans have a smaller ratio of digestive system mass vs. body mass compared to herbivores? Or compared to most primates?
Why do they find bones in Africa that show tool (stone scrape marks) marks on them that are 2-3 million years old?
Why does my Navajo roommate like to eat so much meat? Why does he like to hunt and fish so much?
Why did the first Americans have spear points (clovis) 20,000 years ago?
Why are animals hides so easy to remove? (If you've never killed and butchered you're own meat, you'll have no clue)
Why do I like to hunt, kill, butcher and eat critters?
Why do animals taste so good, especially when they are rare (cooked that is)?
Why are so many plants toxic?
Why do humans have such big brains?
Why do Prairie Dogs cannibalize their compadres that I shoot?
Why do does eat their placenta after birth?
Why do vegetarians try to convince others they're wrong, when they have no facts to back them up.
Why don't vegetarians mind their own business? I don't go out of my way to harass them.

I'm fine with a vegetarian basing their beliefs upon their "morality", but humans have definitely evolved over several million years to become masters at eating meat.

People were not always the weak beings you describe, this is a product of our over all inactive lifestyles over the past centuries. As the need for greater power has decreaced, so has the power. Initially our ancestors were very powerful indeed, especially compared to us. Their limbs were shorter (I would have to get way into skeletal muscular anatomy to explain) and the muscle much more dense due to more constant use. They were far more skilled as hunters than most of us today, by necessity. They lived in a world where that was a tool. They did not have spotting scopes and high powered rifles, treestands or blinds, and McDonalds on the way home if the hunt was unsuccessful. They killed with rocks, hands, teeth, and whatever was handy, even "driving" game over cliffs to "bring home the bacon". No one here has said that plants are not necessary part of a healthy diet, quite the opposite. Most have said that they are a must have. If one eats a heavily animal based diet, it is no more unhealthy that a heavily palnt based one, and in fact less so. Nutrients in plants are absorbed my the animals that eat them, and then in turn by the animal that eats them. There are protiens that are not found in plants that are necessary to a healthy diet, they are found in meats. There are essential fatty acids that are not found in plants, but again are present in meats. I could go on and on, but the point is this, humans, people are intended to be omniverous. We are also thinking beings, free to decide what we want to eat. you do your thing and I'll do mine, everbody walks away happy.

Ever bite your tounge by accident, it bleeds where you bit it. Hey, didn't that Tyson guy bite some boxers ear off not too long ago?

Have you ever tried to bite through the thick and tough hide of an animal, then to assume it could not be done is absurd.

Wow! Hey, Mac what an incredible response. Did you stay up all night working on that little gem?

Nah, mostly stuff I learned in basic Communications class a looooooong time ago.

Veggie-man started giving me a bunch of "logical fallacy" BS so I just gave it back to him with both barrels. In the face of a real debate his true colors come through with threats of violence. What a dork.

That's not true, believe me I know.  All 20 amino acids (including the essential 9) are found in plants.  All essential fatty acids (omega-3 and also omega-6 and omega-9) are found in plants.  I know this because I eat them every day.



It's not so hard to imagine.  Do you really think that you could bite through the thick tough fur and hide of a racoon?



No, it was the rivers that they were situated next to in the earliest settlements.  The rivers, especially the Nile, flooded and was able to provide the fields with replenished nutrients.  This way, they were able to have a sustained agriculture.  Meat had nothing to do with it.



Based on what you write here, it seems like you are a really vile person.  That's pretty scary though, since you and I probably agree on every single issue out there, except for vegetarianism and ecology.

I haven't seen this one posted by anyone yet.

vegan/tree hugger: "I don't eat meat."

Biggun (with glance at my buddy beside me): "That's not what I heard."

This looks only minimally humorous as I look at it, but when I said it to the psychologist where I used to work she was PISSED and my buddy and I laughed our asses off.

What to do when a Vegetarian gets in your face.
Hmmm,  That depends on the vegetarian..

If it's about animal rights;  Tell them your 2nd Amendment right has been violated over 25,000 times.  And that was for our own good too,  wasn't it?

Tell them that your animal burger was given free daycare,  free  housing,  free medical care and free food.   And  look what it got.  Makes you think twice about welfare doesn't it?

Start screaming for a cop and a lawyer.  Some idiots violating your right to a quiet meal!

If it's about health;   Ask if they had a complete medical exam including a blood test before becoming a vegetarian.  If they say no, give them hell  about not taking proper care of themselves.

If they say that eating meat makes them sick.  Throw up on their shirt.

If they call eating meat murder.   Ask them for a recent photograph,  fingerprints, adress, phone number as well as  make, model, and license plate number of their car.   Just in case the local McDonalds burns down that week.  Tell them your just doing your civic duty for the war on "domestic terrorism".  

If they go on and on and on and on forever about why it's natual for humans to be vegetarian,  liten quietly and order another steak!

If they complain that human teeth can't chew through tough animal hide  tell them that the thinnest skin on an animal is in the neck, and the belly, and then tell them to quit chewing on your ass and biting your head off!  

Uh, do vegan womenz swallow? I dunno if that would be considered an animal product or not.

Depends on whether they belong to Vegetarians For Oral Sex (motto: "The Only Meat That's Fit To Eat!").

I don't have to.  My ancestors invented the [red]knife[/red].

That's what I always respond with. Why is it immoral to eat meat when that's what other animals do to each other?
Just watch some of those Discovery Channel shows on lions and other predators and watch what they do to other animals. Half the time they are eating it while it is still alive!
When lions stop eating meat, so will I.

I can't open a can of beans with my teeth,but I can use tools to open them and my cows.     Give em hell MAC.....  LOL        bob     [rolleyes]

Ahh, my kinda guy. Why bother with logical argument? It didn't lead them to be vegetarians in the first place, and it won't lead them away from it. It's much more fun to mess with them. They've never bothered me much, though. I know a couple of them, but they have the good sense to not try to convince everyone else of it. Beekeeper's argument sounds nice too - Get outta my face before I kill and eat YOU!

I believe everyone has a right to their "opinion", but the last time some brain dead veg head asked me not to order any meat dishes at lunch, I asked the waiter for a chicken dish and asked if they could bring a live one to the table so I can kill it myself.