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Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:00:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Close them.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:04:49 PM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
Finally a post I can truly comment on.

I am a school administrator in Ohio so take that for what it is worth.

The public does not understand the concept of holistic evaluations therefore we must base our evaluations on standardized tests.

Teachers must teach to the test to ensure success and appease a mostly ignorant (not a term of disrespect simply a lack of understanding) public.  The general public insists on comparing school districts without taking into account the varied socio-economic, racial, and ethnic backgrounds of the student population.  

I do not understand the argument of brain washing.  The goal of a good teacher is to develop independent thinking and many people feel this is a threat to social norms.  

Private schools are not bound by the same governmental restraints as public schools therefore private schools can have a much more diverse curriculum and this is why SOME teachers send their kids to private schools.  

The public school system is changing to meet the needs of a diverse society.  Many people blame the school system for the lack of moral and ethical foundations.  In reality it is very difficult to teach kids morals and ethics when it is not being reinforced at home.  

I have attempted to make this as simple to understand as possible.  If you have further questions, ask and i will do my best to answer.

Take care



The problem, sir, is that government has no business educating it's own citizens. It is a centralization black hole. Diversity of thought is key to the health of the Republic. Children for the last century have been achieving the uniform sameness that characterizes a litter of pigs. If you cannot recognize the sheer size of the establishment vs what little it accomplishes you have been completely blinded.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:08:37 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids.  Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other.  Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt.  The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place.  It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry.  No free society can long exist with a government school system.  


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality.  That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?



I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results.  A public school system is death to a free society.  Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools.  Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive.  Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society.  Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.  




... and there we have the problem with homeschools



There aren't any. Go pick on Geoge Washington or Nathaniel Bowdich. Perhaps Patrick Henry needed a little Ritalin.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:11:53 PM EDT
[#4]
The teacher's unions like the NEA are destroying it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:16:24 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids.  Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other.  Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt.  The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place.  It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry.  No free society can long exist with a government school system.  


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality.  That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?



I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results.  A public school system is death to a free society.  Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools.  Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive.  Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society.  Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.  






Wrong. Some of the better public schools are equal if not better than many private schools. Just because a school is private does not necessarily mean that it is good. I for one, would bet my public high school against many private schools.

You are taking this  to the extreme



You might want to check how many of the last 20 national spelling bees have been won by home schooled children. Every home school is private and they kick government school ass.



Yes...because spelling bees are the true indicator of intelligence right?

Anyways, home schooling can be great if parents have the time and background to teach. Sometimes this works great. Sometimes, it doesn't. I'm not trying to go against home schooling or private schooling. I'm just being realistic. There are many great public schools in this nation even if others are extremely crappy. The problem is that you seem to suggest that every single one is compeltely worthless and only serve to churn out uneducated ignorant slobs. It's just not true.



Agreed. Small, local community schools have a niche. The problem is the entire society has migrated toward the idea that what was once a meager hand out of an education is expected from the state and it has grown to not only become the norm, but is a self-fueling monster. When you look at what it (public education) sucks out of the economy and the power the establishment wields, it rivals the industrial/defence establishment (at least that has a basis in the Constitution).

Good people make it through despite the system, not because of it. And I agree that you can't do anything if the parents don't dicipline and the school is not allowed to. Those people dig ditches and pick crops when they want to eat. Of course, nature is no longer allowed to take it's course in our half-socialist republic.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:21:07 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:

My children learned to count to 25 using boxes of shotgun shells. Can you do that in government school? Tell me there is no brainwashing going on. You are fooling yourselves.


Did I ever say there was absolutely no brainwashing going on? Of course not. It's pretty obvious that there is, some schools more than others. It's also obvious that lots of schools suck. That's not what I'm debating here.

I still, however, am not impressed with the stance that EVERY public school is a worthless brainwashing camp that only serves to produce uneducated kids. That is what you are implying, and it's simply not true.



Again, I agree not ALL are mind numbed robots. You seem quite articulate and civil!
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:36:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Just a few points…
The public school system is what it is...You have good and you have bad.  
School districts can offer a world of opportunity to students but if the parents are not involved it doesn’t mean jack. Sadly enough we live in an age where parents don't really invest much time in their kids learning.  They can take them to ball practice 5 times a week, but you tell them their kid needs to study a certain skill more and it’s pulling teeth.
If you live in an area that is served by a substandard ISD you have a few choices available to you...Move to a better school district, put them in private school, or do nothing but sit back and complain. I moved into a nice home in a top notch ISD.  The school thing was a priority for me.  I might add that I do not even have any kids at this time.  If the system goes to craps before my kids get in school it’s off to private school.  The way I look at it is that it is my sole responsibility to my sure my kid has been given all the opportunities I can possibly provide to them.

A lot of the new educators out there are people that truly want the best for your kids.  My wife is an educator for the past 5 years.  She graduated from a prestigious private school in Houston (Summa Cum Laude I might add ).  She could have made much more in another field, however teaching kids is her passion.  One trip to her school will confirm the many new teachers who are passionate about teaching.

BTW in regards to the “teaching the test” subject.  Teachers and the Admin typically are the ones fighting this concept tooth and nail.  The .gov is the source for this idiotic thinking.  This concept was not put into place by willing ISD’s, but rather the morons in our government.  Remember the .gov has the $$$.  This was a whiplash type response to past issues.  I don’t know if everyone remembers not so long ago kids in poor neighborhoods were being promoted and graduating not being able to read or write.

One final comment…
To all you teachers out there…My hat’s off to you for the work you do.

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:04:11 AM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids.  Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other.  Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt.  The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place.  It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry.  No free society can long exist with a government school system.  


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality.  That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?



I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results.  A public school system is death to a free society.  Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools.  Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive.  Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society.  Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.  




... and there we have the problem with homeschools



There aren't any. Go pick on Geoge Washington or Nathaniel Bowdich. Perhaps Patrick Henry needed a little Ritalin.



Is reading comprehension better at homeschools?

By the way, it is spelled "Nathaniel Bowditch" not " Nathaniel Bowdich."
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:27:41 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
The problem with out education system is it is based on an agrarian economy that can travel at the most at 15 MPH.  Horseback, if you care.  We tried to "fix" it with school bussing in the 70's only that was in itself a failure because there still wasn't any CHOICE.

The only "choice" is geographically mandated.  You move where the good schools are.  And this causes other problems...

Get rid of the district based tax system.  Force districts to recruit students, of which they are paid IF AND ONLY IF the system educates.


The school system is antiquated and needs complete change BUT the centuries of neglect have cause the rise of administrators and bureaucrats who will resist change to their dying gasps.


glad someone else watched john stossell besides me! all this whiny bullshit about "quality of inner city students" and "fixing the family unit" it's all about quality teachers and quality administrations, none of which we get with the state run edumakashun system. why is it that cities with vouchers see a sharp rise in the test scores of inner city students? cuz the schools with the good teachers suddenly find themselves deluged with homies actually wanting to learn and get ahead. give parents portability and choice and you get smarter kids and better paid and motivated teachers.

next time your county wants to spend money on schools try finding out how the money will be spent. you'd be surprised how much goes to administrative services like building nice new schools with real nice teachers lounges and nice plush modernistic administrative offices.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:38:49 AM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:42:42 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
Just a few points…
The public school system is what it is...You have good and you have bad.  
School districts can offer a world of opportunity to students but if the parents are not involved it doesn’t mean jack. Sadly enough we live in an age where parents don't really invest much time in their kids learning.  They can take them to ball practice 5 times a week, but you tell them their kid needs to study a certain skill more and it’s pulling teeth.
If you live in an area that is served by a substandard ISD you have a few choices available to you...Move to a better school district, put them in private school, or do nothing but sit back and complain. I moved into a nice home in a top notch ISD.  The school thing was a priority for me.  I might add that I do not even have any kids at this time.  If the system goes to craps before my kids get in school it’s off to private school.  The way I look at it is that it is my sole responsibility to my sure my kid has been given all the opportunities I can possibly provide to them.

A lot of the new educators out there are people that truly want the best for your kids.  My wife is an educator for the past 5 years.  She graduated from a prestigious private school in Houston (Summa Cum Laude I might add ).  She could have made much more in another field, however teaching kids is her passion.  One trip to her school will confirm the many new teachers who are passionate about teaching.

BTW in regards to the “teaching the test” subject.  Teachers and the Admin typically are the ones fighting this concept tooth and nail.  The .gov is the source for this idiotic thinking.  This concept was not put into place by willing ISD’s, but rather the morons in our government.  Remember the .gov has the $$$.  This was a whiplash type response to past issues.  I don’t know if everyone remembers not so long ago kids in poor neighborhoods were being promoted and graduating not being able to read or write.
One final comment…
To all you teachers out there…My hat’s off to you for the work you do.




It still happens and it was never confined to poor neighborhoods.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:42:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:50:22 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids.  Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other.  Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt.  The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place.  It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry.  No free society can long exist with a government school system.  


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality.  That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?



I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results.  A public school system is death to a free society.  Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools.  Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive.  Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society.  Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.  




... and there we have the problem with homeschools



There aren't any. Go pick on Geoge Washington or Nathaniel Bowdich. Perhaps Patrick Henry needed a little Ritalin.



Is reading comprehension better at homeschools?

By the way, it is spelled "Nathaniel Bowditch" not " Nathaniel Bowdich."



I do apologize for my mistakes. I had been up since 4am and was a little rummy. BTW I only spent about the last 5 years of my primary education in home school. My mother yanked my sister and I after she realized that they had screwed up my math placement twice in jr high leaving me a year behind and my sister was languishing in third grade unable to read or count without use of her fingers. Now I am a commercial pilot and aircraft airworthiness inspector and she is a spanish and sign language teacher and interpreter. I have seen both sides. BTW I also missed the R in George Washington. I type poorly on little sleep.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:21:17 AM EDT
[#14]
Yeah it sucks as a parent who is very involved with their childs schooling I can't stand it. I have 2 teachers in the familly, 2 that are friends and meet regularly with my kids teachers.

In NY and FL I know this to be true... Each year they add more and more information at the various grade levels that the teachers have to get across. The kids have less and less time to do the work. Phy Ed and Art/Music programs are being cut to make room and the kids to not get enough practive and repetition in the fundementals, before being pushed with more advanced topics. Over 5 years on of my kids fomer teachers taught grade K and 1st. Neither were getting any home work sent home all work was at school. Now the K are getting 30 minutes of homework every night and 1st graders close to an hour, and art/music/phys ed are cut way back.

I hear similar things from my familly and friends.

In FL we have the FCAT which is a feel good money making scam. They add material each year so the teachers have to by new books each year from the people who make the test. Plus if a kid does all A's all year and for some reason bombs the test they are held back. No questions no common sense. If they need to stay back or not they have to.

I don't blame the teachers at all I blame the people who make the rules. Some teachers like anyone are bad but most that I have met are at least capable. They have very little power.  

Public schools should be eliminated and all schools should be privately owned. Gov't schools have failed and no matter how much money we shovel at them they continue to get worse.

The destruction of the familly unit, Illegals, and Welfare guidelines are also other major problems.

Deport illegals and seal off the boarders. Give larger tax credits to 2 parent 1 worker families, Reduce welfare benefits for each additional child that is had, rather than the oposite, and put in the program some kind of credit for parents staying together. (I'd love to eliminate welfare entirely but that wouldbe a good first step). Then privatize the schools. Lots of problems would be diminished or disappear in a few years of this.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:26:35 AM EDT
[#15]
Let me start by saying I am sure there are some good, dedicated teachers out there.  If you're one of them, good for you.  I've heard many stories of dedicated teachers being frustrated at the lack of support from administrators, having no authority to administer discipline, and a multitude of other conditions that make teaching an exercise in futility.

Now that my disclaimer is out of the way,

I think the most common form of child abuse in this country is parents sending their kids to government schools.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:32:45 AM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:
The problem with out education system is it is based on an agrarian economy that can travel at the most at 15 MPH.  Horseback, if you care.  We tried to "fix" it with school bussing in the 70's only that was in itself a failure because there still wasn't any CHOICE.

The only "choice" is geographically mandated.  You move where the good schools are.  And this causes other problems...

Get rid of the district based tax system.  Force districts to recruit students, of which they are paid IF AND ONLY IF the system educates.


The school system is antiquated and needs complete change BUT the centuries of neglect have cause the rise of administrators and bureaucrats who will resist change to their dying gasps.




This is the key.  I live in a good area.  My children's public school is quite good.  My wife is very involved with volunteering at the school, so when it comes time to pick next years teacher she knows who is best.  We have, consequently, been very pleased with the public education of our child.

Kent
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:21:54 PM EDT
[#17]
The problem, sir, is that government has no business educating it's own citizens. It is a centralization black hole. Diversity of thought is key to the health of the Republic. Children for the last century have been achieving the uniform sameness that characterizes a litter of pigs. If you cannot recognize the sheer size of the establishment vs what little it accomplishes you have been completely blinded.

Planerench:

Do you understand why the government is so involved in the public educational system?????

Until the middle of the 20th century most school systems were run at the LOCAL level.  The system primarily devised its own curriculum, rules of operation etc.  With the passage legslative measures, local schools were forced to comply with federal mandates.  In addition more local citizens did not want to pay the increasing costs of educating the local population and as a result the state and local governments became more involved.  

As a result of the increased financial involvment of government, it had more power in determining what was taught and to whom.  The government was permitted to have more involvment due to the fact that they were paying the bills and this is why the state and federal government became more involved in the educational process.  I hope this clarifies how and why the state and federal government has become so involved in education.
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