tactics for chained doors? - Page 2

General » General Discussion

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - tactics for chained doors? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:10:27 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Break a window and bipass the doors all together.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner.

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:12:49 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Break a window and bipass the doors all together.

Alot of school door glass has chicken wire between 2 paynes (sp?) of glass. Not as easy as normal glass.

True but I saw a guy (drunk college football player) punch throught that stuff. He almost bleed to death but he did get a hand through it.

A rifle or shotgun stock could get through it in a few mintues. Asssuming he isn't shooting at you.

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:14:07 AM EDT

[#3]

call the FD & get a Rescue or Ladder truck, use a radial saw on the door hinges, or hydraulic cutters on the chains.

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:15:12 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders

Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?

a firefighting stud would..

I would, but I'm no stud. I would also happily accept the loan of a vest...

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:16:52 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Based on the photograph of that front door, with a shooter inside, I would ideally force entry as follows:

1. Place one officer tasked with covering fire and a 12 gauge with slugs on either side of the inset entryway, mostly behind concrete cover.

2. Wearing as much kevlar as I could find an function under, using a ~~hole saw and cordless drill~~ shotgun, bore through two doors, one on either side of the center strut "door stop", dead center in the entryway between the two double door sets.

3. Pass a chain through one hole and fish it out the other hole, possibly using a coat hanger. Good steel cable could be used in place of the chain.

4. Run chain cable or nylon strap across the stairs/wall and down to one or more heavy vehicle frames.

5. Pull the entire door assembly, center strut first.

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:22:17 AM EDT

[#6]

Why....I'd just sing "Un-chained Melody"!

Just drive through the doors with a cruiser. POOF. No more doors. No brainer.

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:22:20 AM EDT

[#7]

How about 25ft of logging chain and a tow hook? Even a crown vic would have enough ass to pull the door frame out.

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:24:07 AM EDT

[#8]

How about a trunk mounted harpoon?

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:25:29 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders

Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?

I can get a saw started and hand it to a cop.

Posted: 4/19/2007 9:26:19 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
How about a trunk mounted harpoon?

what does Micheal Moore have to do with this discusion ?

Posted: 4/19/2007 11:56:21 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders

Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?

I can get a saw started and hand it to a cop.

Yeah but I ain't handing my saw off to anyone.

Or my line, or anything else that I can operate a damn sight better than any cop! Hell, they can barely operate their weapons competently

Posted: 4/19/2007 11:58:29 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders

Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?

I can get a saw started and hand it to a cop.

Yeah but I ain't handing my saw off to anyone.

Or my line, or anything else that I can operate a damn sight better than any cop! Hell, they can barely operate their weapons competently

this reminds me of that popo vs. firemen game in the "Departed"

Posted: 4/19/2007 12:00:04 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders

Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?

I can get a saw started and hand it to a cop.

Yeah but I ain't handing my saw off to anyone.

Or my line, or anything else that I can operate a damn sight better than any cop! Hell, they can barely operate their weapons competently

Well then you wouldn't mind coming with me while I provide suppresive fire then right ? problem solved

Posted: 4/19/2007 12:00:20 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders

Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?

I can get a saw started and hand it to a cop.

Yeah but I ain't handing my saw off to anyone.

Or my line, or anything else that I can operate a damn sight better than any cop! Hell, they can barely operate their weapons competently

In reality several members of our SWAT team are firefighters. One of the joys of being volunteer. If they need the gear, they know how to use it.

Posted: 4/19/2007 12:02:20 PM EDT

[#15]

Shoot an AR mag into the chain.

Hey it might work depending on how thick the chain is. Otherwise a shotgun slug would probably work as has been mentioned.

Posted: 4/19/2007 12:09:57 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Well then you wouldn't mind coming with me while I provide suppresive fire then right ? problem solved

Let's go.

But I'd probably have to show you how to shoot first...

lol

Posted: 4/19/2007 12:11:05 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
I seen this post and it got me thinking....

Quoted:
The officers were trying to get into the building. You can see them running in the cell phone video trying to find an open door. Once a door was found and/or the chains were cut entry was made, but it was too late. It is really hard to cut chains on the inside of a door.

We have fought one of the local highschool principals for years over chaining doors for this very reason. He refused to listen to reason.

1. How would you as a responder get the doors opened in a hurry?

2. How many people /patrol officers carry bolt cutters in there car/truck?

ETA:

3. There are bars for security on the first floor windows ( as is the case in most schools)

1: doesnt a truck and a chain or tow strap on the other end still work?

hell, i have 2 tow straps and a bungie strap in the Z to pull out other vehicals if its necessary...i'm sure it can take down a nice door also

2: beats me, but i dont

3: yea, a big enough truck still works--w/ or w/out a grill guard
hell, if they improvised, they could have easily ran a car right through the front door, which is worth the time imo to get in to help/save people

guess the bad guys tend to be a little more determined/creative though sometimes

this:

+
this:

or this:

=

anyone, determined enough can get to where they want to go...its just how messy or how much stuff can be messed up to consider

just my .02

Posted: 4/19/2007 12:45:52 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

1. How would you as a responder get the doors opened in a hurry?

2. How many people /patrol officers carry bolt cutters in there car/truck?

3. There are bars for security on the first floor windows ( as is the case in most schools)

I carry a haligan tool. Never had to use it. Most of the exterior doors at the colleges in my town are fairly oversized and heavy, particularly in the older buildings. I'm not sure a haligan tool would even work on those doors. It would be easier to breach a window under those circumstances.
edit:
you guys with some of your suggestions...sawzalls, det cord, geez....

Posted: 4/19/2007 3:44:58 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders

Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?

a firefighting stud would..

All of our Medic transport vehicles and EMS coordinator vehicles carry vests, and technically the SOP reads "enter the scene after it has been secured by police" but we can deviate from SOP's when there is an immediate life saftey issue, and I personally know of several incidents where CFD medics have faced incoming fire while attending to downed police officers & victims. Medals of Valor were awarded after 2 guys basically baja'd a medic vehicle onto a scene where a barricaded man shot at them to help some SWAT guys recover a critically injured woman who had been shot in the face at point blank range - she survived.
I would, but I'm no stud. I would also happily accept the loan of a vest...

Posted: 4/19/2007 4:19:53 PM EDT

[#20]

I'm glad some people have at least thought about it.

iirc THe kids were getting out throug the second story windows

Posted: 4/19/2007 4:50:46 PM EDT

[#21]

Replace school doors with the type that can't be chained. Make instructor qualify with a Krink and carry it in class, slung across his/her chest.

Posted: 4/19/2007 5:10:43 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
I seen this post and it got me thinking....

Quoted:
The officers were trying to get into the building. You can see them running in the cell phone video trying to find an open door. Once a door was found and/or the chains were cut entry was made, but it was too late. It is really hard to cut chains on the inside of a door.

We have fought one of the local highschool principals for years over chaining doors for this very reason. He refused to listen to reason.

1. How would you as a responder get the doors opened in a hurry?

2. How many people /patrol officers carry bolt cutters in there car/truck?

ETA:

3. There are bars for security on the first floor windows ( as is the case in most schools)

I have yet to see one.

Posted: 4/19/2007 5:11:45 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
The GD crowd seems to think that patrol officers carry everything from wall breaching charges to Halligan tools.

Slugs to the lock/chain/hinges is about the only thing that an officer is going to have available. Windows would be nice, but we don't carry ladders either. Several of our local high schools are notable for not having ANY ground floor windows. Folks in GD suggest ramming the door with your patrol car. I'll happily do that when someone shows me how to drive up two flights of a staircase and to get around the vehicle barricades emplaced after Oklahoma City.

I have yet to see vehicle barricades on a college campus

Posted: 4/19/2007 5:14:40 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders

Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?

Bet your ass we would at a school with an active shooter. Policy be dammed!

Posted: 4/19/2007 5:16:59 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Break a window and bipass the doors all together.

Alot of school door glass has chicken wire between 2 paynes (sp?) of glass. Not as easy as normal glass.

True but I saw a guy (drunk college football player) punch throught that stuff. He almost bleed to death but he did get a hand through it.

A rifle or shotgun stock could get through it in a few mintues. Asssuming he isn't shooting at you.

Buckshot and slugs work quite well thank you.