The San Diego Union Tribune had a great article on this back in 1998.
San Diego, along with the city of Poway, had 12 of these red light cameras installed at various areas around the cities.
Poway had one mounted at the bottom of a very steep grade where the speed limit was 50 mph.

What the San Diego Union reported was that these red light runner cameras cost about $75,000 each. The company that made the signed an agreement with the cities to allow them to install and maintain them.
The tickets themselves were around $140 each. The city would get about $40, the company would get $100, and the red light runner would have to pay for the ticket plus the court costs.
The tickets go to the registered owner of the car, and can not be changed unless the "some one else" goes to court and pleads guilty to the offense.
The first 6 months no tickets or fines were issued, just a warning note sent to the home of the registered owner of the vehicle.
The first year that fines were collected they made something like 1.7 million.
They have been in use now for over 3 years, and this year they are on track to lose money for the first time after the cities pay the company off.
They now rotate the cameras around to different locations to try and keep one step ahead of the "criminals".

It's just like the laser units the cops use, the companies that make them lease them out to the cops for a percentage of the fine monies. In some cases insurance companies were buying them for the police in certain cities.

It IS nothing but a way for them to make money.

Derek is right...throw the ticket away.  And the .50 sounds good.

Just look at the bus and you'll see that there's no driver or seat visible on the left (curb) side of the bus. It's a foreign pic. also, if it was a reversed negative, "Suzuki" would be backwards.

But they never said what type of rounds. It could be a simple .22, which makes sense. So, Try a .223, or a .30 caliber.

We nee to say enough is enough.

Norm G sez...>>"VASCAR had nothing to do with photographs. It was purely a time/speed/distance computer. The operator (revenuer) flipped switches at landmarks when you passed them and when he passed them to have the box compute a speed. He could make the box say anything he wanted it to. Very operator dependant."<<

And Norm G is CORRECT!  The VASCAR thingie was in use about the same time as LTV's photo/radar.  I'll lie awake tonight trying to remember the correct name of the LTV toy.  It had a cute acronym too.  Any help from the members is appreciated.  Especially if you lived in the Dallas area in the late '60's.

Arock out.

"you would be suprised at how easy it is to fry electronics with a stun gun"

Oooh, GS... A portable hi-pot tester.  Clean.  Nasty.  Easy.  Sweet.  Case to ground or...?  Wonder what safety agencies have to be passed?

My kind of lethal.

Here in Seattle we're told that the cameras will promote safety,reduce accidents and are not intended as a revenue generator. The cost of a red light camera ticket is $70 and the offense will NOT go on your driving record however, if you get pulled over by a cop for running a red light , this WILL go on your record. Just how the F#*K does this promote safety!  If I've got the $, I can run as many red light cams as I please, they get their money and I'm still a danger to other drivers, what bullshit! Take'm out if you can........
[pissed]

Welcome to the police state!!  The stun gun is a good idea, but I'm almost certain that these things are shielded from lightning.  Paintball guns or the lasers sound like the best so far, IMHO

I knew this would be a good topic!  It's amazing how many people automatically assume I run red lights or otherwise I would not be so upset about these bullshit cameras.  Actually, I seldom, if ever run them, only if I'm turning left under a yellow and have to wait for cars coming through the intersection.  That's perfectly legal anyways, you can't just sit in the middle of an intersection after the light changes anyhow.  One time I stopped for a yellow and got rear-ended by someone though.  That's not the issue anyways.
 

To me, there's a difference between being in public and being photographed and surveilled in public by law enforcement.  They have no probable cause to suspect that I am up to something, and therefore no reason to surveil me.  It's an erosion of due process of law as well as my privacy and my ability to conduct my affairs without being subject to the state's control. I cringe whenever people don't understand this simple difference.  We pay for the roads, we pay for licenses, registrations, inspections, insurance, etc.  Basically, we pay pay pay and now we are being asked to pay some more.

The tickets here will be $50, with no points.  FOR NOW!  Nothing will prevent them from raising the fines or changing it to add points in the future.  

Don't even talk to me about safety.  Some 900 fatalities occur nationwide due to red light runs each year.  That is an infintesimal number of incidents if you consider just how many millions of people take to the roads each year.  It's the same agenda as gun control--take a non-existent problem and use it to wipe away the Constitution.  It's worse than gun control, in fact, because of the costs to innocent people.

If a road or intersection has a high number of accidents, that probably means there is something wrong with how it was designed in the first place.  Fix the design and you fix the problem.  Same thing with speed limits--how many roads are marked 45 and yet everyone drives 60 on them?  Lots and lots and lots.  I don't even feel bad about saying I'm a scofflaw in that regard because the speed limits are totally bogus and only meant to ensure that there are ready-made speed traps everywhere we go.  

The companies that supply the cameras set them up for free and take 60% of the ticket revenue after that.  Their web sites talk all about revenue generation and say hardly anything about safety at all.  The city of Charlotte claims that the cameras have caused a "halo effect of save driving throughout the city" but has no hard data to back up that claim.  Any time you see or hear them say "there was a 30% reduction in accidents in intersections where the cameras were installed" you should say "BULLSHIT!" because it's impossible.  My guess is, in the unlikely event that there is such an improvement, it's probably because people are going out of their way to avoid the camera-enabled intersections.

It's time we reject this nonsense, en toto.  If we can't win politically, then it will be time to smash the tools of oppression wherever and however possible.  

I thought of another idea--put a sticker over the camera lens.  Use the same nasty kind of sticker they put on your car when you park someplace restricted--you know, the big orange ones that are a bitch to peel off without a scraper?  Someone will at least have to come out and remove the stupid thing.  That will get old.

If they are mounted on an aluminum pole, I'd be inclined to just fire up a chain saw and have at the pole. No firearms violations to deal with. :)

Bite me.

Bite me commie.

There are perfectly legitimate reasons for running a red light.  One poster already said--a cop waived his wife through the intersection because of an accident.  But now she got a ticket and he has to waste his time trying to explain to an indifferent bureacracy why the fine should be voided.  Nice!

What if you see someone skidding behind you and there is no traffic coming, so you pull forward to avoid an accident?  Click, you're now a violator.  

The town board here claims that they have an appeals process for cases like this.  But I say, I shouldn't have to be second-guessed about my driving abilities.  No accidents in all my 12 years of driving cars and motorcycles ought to say something.  Anyone learning to drive nowadays ought to start by throwing the DMV manual away and take some high-performance driving lessons.

And for those still worried about schmucks who run red lights, here's my advice--use your eyes and ears and look before you pull forward when the light turns green.  Bank cameras don't prevent bank robberies and stop light cameras photograph accidents all the time.

Run a red light in the village I work and I'll do a combination of the below to you:

Ticket your ass. Twice if you don't have your seatbelt on. And may the Gods help you if your shitfaced...

Arrest your ass after I get done picking up the bodies of the folks you just T-boned.

Put the fire that's all over your ass out.

Save your ass & take you to the trauma center after YOU get T-boned.

Got a problem with it? Doom on you.

Picture this: It's 0330HRS.

*KNOCK-KNOCK-KNOCK*

You answer.

I'm there. In uniform. I look unhappy. (Because I am.)

Your heart is racing, trying to figure out why I'm there. You know, that coppery taste on your tounge...

I say "Mr. Squarenuts, I'm sorry to tell you this, but your [insert most loved one's name(s) here] has been killed by a red light runner..."

I look at driving as a right, (not as a priviledge, as the law and most of my fellow officers see it...) and with rights COME RESPONSIBILITIES!

Butch up and be responsible.

I'm tired of picking up the pieces and of knocking on doors at 0330HRS...

P3 - POLICE OFFICER / PARAMEDIC / FIREFIGHTER [pyro][pissed]

Some of you need to step back and take a few deep breaths.  A lot of you have suggested criminal vandalism.  (Anyone want to guess how the courts view destruction of $50,000 -- $75,000 worth of property?)

Certainly, lobby your representative.  Take the video tapes before and after.  Talk to the press about how shortening the yellow is the real safety violation.  Vote the b*******s out.  (Isn't that the American way?)

IF your really worried about surveilance, you have a LOT more to worry about.  In most be cities, there are a tremendous number of cameras.  Every ATM.  (McVey was picked up on an ATM camera in OKC.)  

More and more cities are installing cameras for traffic monitoring.  Surprise.  They can see you too.  The Chinese used a Western built traffic monitoring system to track Tinianmen Square protesters (despite pious promises not to use the system only for traffice surveilance.)

Do you have "Jam-Cam" traffic reports on your local stations?  Those are big cameras watching every thing on the roads.  

A lot of the cameras around are privately owned.  That does not mean that you can trust the owners not to invade your privacy.  

Many of these cameras can look right in your apartment building -- even from several blocks away.  You may think you're safe from peeping Toms because there are no buildings around.  You're not.  Something to consider before you start your morning exercises.

Anyone out there have Easy Pass or a similar system for paying tolls?  Its a little transponder, generally stuck to the windshield, that tells the toll booth to deduct the cost of the toll from my account.  Its much faster than the manual lanes.  Governments like it a lot.  

However, there is now a permenant record of when you made those crossings.  They need an audit trail.  (Where have we heard that before?)

There is another little trick.  They can interrogate it, without your knowledge at ANY time as you drive by.  Already in NYC they've done some studies of checking that cars that crossed this bridge arrived here x minutes later.  Oddly enough the time difference implies an average speed about 15 miles over the posted limit.  If anyone thinks that the government will not start issuing tickets based on that sort of evidence, you're dreaming.  While I have not heard of it, it would be fairly easy for the cops to learn your transponder code and then interrogate cars going past fixed points to find you.  If you get an EasyPass, keep it in the glovebox except when you're actually using it to go through the tolls.  

Too late to type more.  Redlight cameras are only a drop, a small drop, in the bucket.  

It only sucks when YOU get a ticket... try being a pedestrian once in a while with people in cars in a big hurry while talking on cell phones. Or, ride a bike to get the whole perspective. Bottom line is lights are too short for amount of cars and people don't give a shit as long as they can make the left or get through the intersection. "What, I wouldn't have run a red if it wasn't for that jerk in front of me being so slow". A few $200 tickets might change attitudes, I know I find avoiding red lights is not difficult, just requires a more peaceful approach to negotiating city streets.

For those of you that think the solution is to not run red lights, I have one question:

When was the last time you operated a motorized vehicle?

Along with the already mentioned legal reasons for going through a red light, there are so many more.

Anyone here ever driven to the emergency room at 2AM with a trail of blood oozing from your body?  Sure, you will stop and make sure it is safe, but why wait for a green when there is nobody in sight and your life is at stake?  Why should you have to pay $100 or so per intersection passed in this manner?

Anyone here ever had a police escort?  I reported a burglary at a friend's house about eight years ago.  The idiot even used their driveway.  When I went to the police station, the officer said "follow me" to me as he hopped in his squad and flipped on his red lights.  Should I be required to pay $500 in fines for all the traffic control devices I was told to violate?

Anyone here ever get out at night?  Many stoplights for small roads that meet major intersections use sensors to tell the light to change when a car is parked on it.  I drive a Chevrolet Metro and it doesn't always register.  After waiting 10 minutes for the light to change, and watching only oncoming traffic get a green (because oncoming traffic has a heavier vehicle waiting to proceed) should I be required to wait four or five hours for the stoplights to go back into timer mode?

It is obvious that many of you that think "not violating the law" is the solution live in California and Illinois.  I sometimes think that you enjoy when the government stops by to piss in your Cheerios.

Here in No. Virginia the buzz is when they installed these devices THEY SHORTENED THE YELLOW....WFT? [pissed]
If these were supposed to be strickly safety / enforcement, then why shorten the yellow? Shoulda left the light timing the same, just use the camera for enforcement. Talk Radio here is saying they shortened the yellow from about 5 seconds to 2.8. Next time you are on a vacant road try stopping from say 55 MPH to a dead stop in 2.8. Now try it in the rain at night with somebody following too close behind. I'm 100% for not running red lights because its very dangerous but they should have left the light timing alone. There IS a revenue component to this, at least here in the No. Va / Washington DC area.

What some do in Colorado is take off their front plates. Some also leave their visors down so the driver can not be identified.

But please don't run red lights, some of the most horrorific accidents I have seen have been red light runners.

They came up with another use for the camersa here in our town...I noticed a DOT van parked on the bridge over our interstate highway (I94)
they had 3 (expensive) cameras pointed  down, at each lane videotaping cars going by.  I wondered what it was about, until it was in the paper that they were recording license plates, to see who was crossing the border, and where they were from.  some sort of "study" they called it. hmmmm

For those of you who responded with "don't run red lights" and other pablum, read the below VERY carefully.  Twice if you don't get it the first time.

Scott
Sua Sponte



Pt II to follow

How do they prove who was driving?
Me:"Wasn't me." Them:"Who was driving?" Me:"I'm taking the 5th. F#@k you"

Listen, PyroPig or whatever the hell your name is, your job isn't going to get any easier.  You will still have the hard job of cleaning up bodies, arresting perps, and telling next of kin of their relatives' untimely demise.  If you think that stop light cameras are somehow going to magically wipe all that away, you're a damn fool!

Driving fatalities have become much less common despite how badly the average driver does their job.  It's all due to improved automotive design.  It certainly isn't due to all the nonsensical, emotional hot air generated by the safety crowd.  I would like to flog all the idiots who supported the 55mph speed limit, seatbelt laws, DWI checkpoints, and now camera enforcement.  I also don't have much good to say about organizations like MADD that are on a big crusade to save the world from drunk drivers.  At some point the unethical things that go on in their zeal for getting the message out outstrips any possible good that they do.      

The law enforcement and justice community are in the business of manufacturing crime in some kind of Kafkaesque mission to justify their jobs, pensions, and steady income for the state.  Not one of these laws, ordinances or what have you go to the heart of the problem--that people are basically shitty, careless and irresponsible drivers and you take your life into your own hands whenever you go out on the roads.  Until we somehow address that little, itty bitty matter, nothing else makes a whole hell of a lot of difference.  At least when all these ridiculous laws get repealed, I won't also have to worry about being shaken down by uniformed highwaymen, who are themselves a kafkaesque caricature of a once-honorable profession.

Spare me about how all of you are lifesavers and protectors of humanity.  For every life saved or protected, 25 are ruined by the system.
Like the under-reporting of defensive firearm uses, no one is talking about how fundamentally and instrinsically corrupt it is to fine (and generally emiserate) people for victimless crimes.  Go by any courthouse on "DWI Day" and you will see a long line of people, most of whom have done no one any wrong.  Yet they are forced to surrender themselves and their money and bend over backwards in order to avoid imprisonment.  If I ever sit as a juror in a DWI case I will not vote to convict unless someone was clearly somehow victimized by the defendant--and I've known people who were the innocent victims of a drunken driver!  Prevention is a dirty word when it becomes the pretense that separates us from our freedoms.  

Incidently, the budget crisis in NC is forcing some counties to lay off sheriff's deputies and state police.  As their numbers decrease, I feel like my hemorrhaging freedoms bleed a little bit less.  But all we hear from the media is steady propaganda about how this is such a bad thing.  I doubt very much that any truly serious crimes will fall by the wayside.  

HOLY SHIT! THIS NEVER HAPPENS!

THE END IS NIGH!!! lmao!

thanks, D.

Two quick notes and I gotta get back to building guns.

1. There are no points on your license due to red light cameras and photo rader because IT IS A SHAM! It's not a legitimate ticket.

2. The best DWI/DUI defense? 1. Make NO Statements. 2. Perform NO tests. 3. Consent to NO searches.

D.

I don't think most people get the point. Americans are becoming Robots who believe everything they see on T.V. I am glad to see that there are alot of guys that still understand what freedom is all about. Fuck the Cameras and BIG BROTHER

That picture was taken in England.
It is a GATSO speed camera not on a traffic light, that is the next step after traffic light cameras,
The guy mooning is the passenger. These cameras have been in use over there for over 10 years, this and many other stupid methods of controling the people made me emigrate to the USA nine years ago.
Unfortunatly these things spread like a disease and pretty soon they will be everywhere.

Hey, anyone hear about the stop light camera here in Phoenix that got all shot up the other night? Didn't see anything in the newspaper but it was on the news....




John

Two things:

 1) Derek, the best defense to DUI is DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE!!!!! Simple.

 2) The reason there are no points is because it is an administrative fine, not a real ticket. In the vast majority of states, the defendant must be the one to have comitted the crime. With the camera, generally no ID can be made of the driver. If it were a court case, it would be thrown out. Were it me (as a cop and having gone to law school), I'd tell them to shove it, then let them decide to take me to court. There, I'd stomp'em into the dirt.

  If you do a crime, you get busted, BUT THERE ARE RULES TO THE GAME, and we should be able to believe that the government will follow them.

(translation):

Baaaaa! Baa!.

D.

I'm sorry, allow me to digress.

The best philosophy for ANY TRAFFIC STOP.

1. Make NO statements. 2. Perform NO tests. 3. Consent to NO searches.

Feel better now, Crusader? D.

Read it and weep:

http://www.privacy.org/pi/issues/cctv/

This thread is unbelievable! Darek u de man! Although I think homemade c-4 on the bottom of the pole would make a statement. LOL Just kidding! [whacko]

No offense to any cops on the board, but IMO traffic cops are tax collectors.  If everyone suddenly obeyed the asinine speed limits, municipalities across the country would go broke.

Eddie

I wish I was smart enough to express myself like some of you guys! Trickshot you need to quit holding back and just say what you have on your mind! What a thread!

Don't run red lights (but it happens), use EMPs to get rid of the cameras. Or if you want to be "tactical", a flametrower. [:D]

Ls1Eddie:
Your statement has no validity. Revenue from tickets is not retained by the local courts. They aren't making money off ticket fines.

That may be true....

....but [i]cities and towns[/i] sure are. [:)]

Its common in my area of NC for the DA to offer you a deal, in order for you to not to have the ticket count against your insurance.

However, you are still going to pay [b]Court costs[/b]. It only costs $86 , since you dont have to pay the $10 ticket they let you out of.

Such a deal [:o]

G2

Well, this looks like a hot topic.  In fact I have a friend who got a red light in the mail a few days ago, and her mug was absolutely hysterical.  She realized she was running the light and cringed and the photo made it look like she was laughing and pulling herself to the steering wheel.  No mistaking the driver there.  However.....  The instructor at my traffic school here in Ca. about a year ago told me the secret to defeating the red light camera is to simply leave your visor down.  They can not legally ticket the registered owner for a violation when they can not ID the driver.  It is the same as arresting the RO of a vehicle that has been stolen.  If you say, I did not lend my car out but the mileage was different this morning, they can not prove that someone did not joy ride your car.  But.... If you do run the light the odds are you were more likely doing something that distracted you anyway and you deserve the ticket.  As for the Emergency or Wife was waved through type of things, I hope you prevailed in your case, because that just plain sucks.

Gren:
The Court surcharge is to cover Court expenses associated with the ticket. It's hardly a money-maker for the Court, and certainly not for the township. As for the "$10 ticket": There is no such thing, at least around here. Lowest tickets around here run in the $50-75  range. Many tickets run into the hundreds of dollars, or even a maximum sentence of jail time.

"It wasn't me driving"

If not you then who was driving so we can ticket them?

"It was an illegal alien, Jose Garcia, who I let borrow my car to go buy a quart of milk for his dehydrated baby."

Where can we send the ticket so Mr Garcia can pay his fine?

"Mexico City, I think. Not sure which Jose Garcia it is."

Quoted:
"Listen, PyroPig or whatever the hell your name is, If you think that stop light cameras are somehow going to magically wipe all that away, you're a damn fool!"

Ummmmmmmmm, Where did I say I supported the cameras? NEWSFLASH: I don't, not for enforcement purposes. For accident reconstruction, sure. My biggest problem with them are the resonable doubt about the identity of the driver.

"I would like to flog all the idiots who supported seatbelt laws, DWI checkpoints..."

Get in line. I think that it's asinine to have to resort to piffle legislation to get people to not endanger themselves AND others. It would be ideal that everyone be responsible. Most are. Some are not. That's who the laws are for.

"I also don't have much good to say about organizations like MADD that are on a big crusade to save the world from drunk drivers."

Tell me what's wrong with a bunch of people who don't want to see anyone else murdered by DUI drivers.

"Not one of these laws, ordinances or what have you go to the heart of the problem--that people are basically shitty, careless and irresponsible..."

I couldn't disagree more. The overwhelming majority of drivers I see ARE responsible.

"Spare me about how all of you are lifesavers and protectors of humanity."

Tell that to all the people that are still walking the planet directly due to people in my profession. And their families and friends.

"For every life saved or protected, 25 are ruined by the system."

Statistics, please.

"...people for victimless crimes.  Go by any courthouse on "DWI Day" and you will see a long line of people, most of whom have done no one any wrong."

Wrong. Regardless of the (apporopriately) illegalities concerning DUI, getting behind the wheel while impaired is a manifestly irresponsible and dangerous act that jeopardizes EVERYONE.

Trickshot - deep breath, dude. I'm on your side. The day "they" come for our guns, I'll be next to you behind the sandbags handing you another magazine.[:P]

(sound of soapbox being kicked back into the corner)

P3[pyro][^]

Originally Posted By The Beer Slayer:
"ParaPyroPig,

"You are obviously in the wrong proffesion (sic)."

Mom keeps tellin' me that, too.[:D]

You knew that this would be a job requirment (sic) for you."

Yeah, you're right. I did. However, I don't like doing it, nor shall I ever.

"If you are not knocking on doors for MVA's it will be assaults, homicides, or whatever the death of the day is."

Indeed, I do.

"Traffic camera's are STRICTLY a revenue generating tax on motorists. The fines are unlawful as there is no possible way to face your accuser. Most motorists pay this fine as it will cost them more to take the time off from work than to pay the fine."

You'll get no argument from me.

"Either you can't handle the stress of your chosen proffesion (sic) or you have no clue about how the world turns."

Don't assume. That's a pretty bold blanket statement, Mike. I'll assume that you wrote in the heat of the moment and I won't take it personaly. In that spirit, I won't respond to it, lest I stir up ill will(s).

P3[pyro][^]