ccw in Wisconsin ... passed senate! passed assembly! (back to the senate, bad amendment added) - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ccw in Wisconsin ... passed senate! passed assembly! (back to the senate, bad amendment added) (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 12/14/2005 9:23:14 AM EDT

[#1]

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Can you imagine what it would take to get a AK/VT carry bill? Christ this bill is fat with B.S. but better than what is here now.

It's a whole hell of a lot better than what we have now, and will be tweaked to make it even better yet.

The idea of waiting to get the "perfect" bill passed is just about as naive as the crap the WGO claims to believe. This would be the biggest step forward that this state has ever experienced in this arena, but some her want to toss it out 'cause it isn't enough for them. Never mind the simple little fact that it leaves us miles ahead of where we are currently. Never mind that further changes will be made in coming sessions as the anti fuss and fury dies down. Some of us might have to avoid certain small areas until the law is tweaked, so let's stick with a complete and total prohibition instead.

Photoman, newbie, I know both of you. I really expected a more logical response from each of you. This gets us 95% of the way, and it makes obtaining the remaining 5% in the next few years obtainable. Instead, you advocate rejecting it out of hand and waiting to see what we can get after 20 pro gun representatives retire in the next year???? Have you guys taken up crack????

Take the god damn free car, and quit bitching that it doesn't have a CD player.
.

I'm not advocating passing aperfect bill, it's not possible, however the 2003 bill was better then this one is now, and the bill as introduced to the Senate was better then this one is now.

I have nothing to like about this bill and I can't play the "something is better then nothing" game on this as even just accepting that we will have to have a law passed to get CCW is a big step down from my normal position on htis issue. That being that the right is already there and that the "resonable restrictions" on that right just need to be removed, and the best place to do that is the courts in my eyes.

And this whole everyone screaming BUT THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS shit is really getting to me because no one bothered to really read the wording of the exception. There is no exception because a state agency is not a political subdivision of the state, that means holding a Wisconsin CCW permit would not be a defense for having a gun within 100 ft of a school because the permit according to the exception has to be issued by the political subdivision in which the school/school district resides and the political subdivisions are not issueing the CCW permit the state is.

I don't want a perfect bill, it will never happen I know that, but I'd at least like one that is not as marred down in BS appeasment shit like this one has become.

You can really look at a bill that would give you a mechanism to legally go armed in better than 90% of the state, compared to a total prohibition, and say you have nothing to like about it. You can look at the largest toe hold we've ever been offered, and say you have nothing to like about it. You would really rather wait until 20 pro gun reps retire and see what happens. Hell, don't take that 90 yard gain, 'cause it ain't a touchdown, huh? Sheesh.

Posted: 12/14/2005 9:30:02 AM EDT

[#2]

It won't get fixed later.
Same as FOPA.

I say clean bill or let it die.
We will eventually get CCW in WI.

You guys might get pissed at me for saying so but where I live I can open carry all the time, and typically do so it is not worth it to me to pass a POS bill.

What we need to do is get Doyle out. That's where we should focus our efforts. Get rid of him and we will be able to get a clean bill. Then we can get rid of Sherman also.

I have friends who tell me Doyle doesn't stand a chance next year and that some pretty scandalous info is going to come out so I say wait. His refusal to sign CCW will mobilize a few more conservative voters. Look at the big picture I say.

Posted: 12/14/2005 9:36:35 AM EDT

[#3]

I can only dream of having a CCW bill passed in IL, even with all the BS attached.

Take what you can now and improve on it later. After the libs see that there aren't gunfights at stopsigns and shopping malls for no reason, they won't be able to make the BS accusations. Then the law can be tweaked.

Posted: 12/14/2005 9:38:43 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

You can really look at a bill that would give you a mechanism to legally go armed in better than 90% of the state, compared to a total prohibition, and say you have nothing to like about it. You can look at the largest toe hold we've ever been offered, and say you have nothing to like about it. You would really rather wait until 20 pro gun reps retire and see what happens. Hell, don't take that 90 yard gain, 'cause it ain't a touchdown, huh? Sheesh.

I never said there was nothing I like about it. Honestly though, I don't like the idea of needing to pass this law period. II just spesificly don't like a lot of the amendments that were added to it. Like I said if they passed the 2003 version, fine, if they passed this one AS INTRODUCED with none of the BS amendments fine I'd take it. Hell I'l even take it with the LE database compramise, but this one little POS amendment thats going to far in my book.

This whole we'll fix it shit is what got us where we are now in the first place. Had the legislature brought the CCW statute in line with the RKBA amendment instead of saying we'll fix it later by letting the courts handle it we wouldn't be in this situation. I don't like hearing lets pass it now and fix it later because fixing it later does not seem to happen in Wisconsin.

Posted: 12/14/2005 9:39:52 AM EDT

[#5]

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I can only dream of having a CCW bill passed in IL, even with all the BS attached.

Take what you can now and improve on it later. After the libs see that there aren't gunfights at stopsigns and shopping malls for no reason, they won't be able to make the BS accusations. Then the law can be tweaked.

There are 46 other states they can look to to see that and yet they still scream it all the time.

Posted: 12/14/2005 9:41:00 AM EDT

[#6]

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You guys might get pissed at me for saying so but where I live I can open carry all the time, and typically do so it is not worth it to me to pass a POS bill.

This bill refers to concealed carry, not open, and I can't imagine anyone getting pissed about your opinion as long as you keep it to yourself, that is, please don't go off the deep end and start writing letters to legislators asking them not to vote for an override or go and make a donation to the Joyce Foundation - that'd be really, really stupid - whereas your opinion is just what it is.

Posted: 12/14/2005 9:54:25 AM EDT

[#7]

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It won't get fixed later.

Yeah, because no state with CCW has ever started with restrictive rules and made them less restrictive as time went on.

Sheesh.

Posted: 12/14/2005 9:55:45 AM EDT

[#8]

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It won't get fixed later.

Yeah, because no state with CCW has ever started with restrictive rules and made them less restrictive as time went on.Vermont

Sheesh.

This isn't other states this is Wisconisn.

Posted: 12/14/2005 9:58:54 AM EDT

[#9]

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So basically you think that there's no hope of passing a clean bill, and that passing this crappy one will leave us stuck with it because it will give the courts something to point to in concealed carry cases, wheras without the bill passed they'd have to reconcile the concealed carry ban with the state RKBA amendment?

All I can say to that is that I do not trust the courts and expect they'll fugg us over as bad as anyone else in government.

I think we'll have a better chance after the november elections to pass a clean bill.

Ok, then forgetting about the courts, if we have the numbers to pass a clean bill as of november, why wouldn't we have the numbers to clean this one up? And if we can clean it up, why not get it now and clean it up later.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:00:19 AM EDT

[#10]

And also May bring up VT.

But wouldn't such a decision also make the PPA null and void as well? I say go for it, this is the best shot we're going to have for a long time.

I can deal with not walking by schools. The bus thing is unenforcable and I believe the bill as written states that school buses are defined as those owned by the school. In SE WI (I don't know what it's like in the bumfuck counties) all buses are privately owned contractors so I believe the law could be interpreted to not apply to them.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:05:34 AM EDT

[#11]

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So basically you think that there's no hope of passing a clean bill, and that passing this crappy one will leave us stuck with it because it will give the courts something to point to in concealed carry cases, wheras without the bill passed they'd have to reconcile the concealed carry ban with the state RKBA amendment?

All I can say to that is that I do not trust the courts and expect they'll fugg us over as bad as anyone else in government.

I think we'll have a better chance after the november elections to pass a clean bill.

Ok, then forgetting about the courts, if we have the numbers to pass a clean bill as of november, why wouldn't we have the numbers to clean this one up? And if we can clean it up, why not get it now and clean it up later.

Whats the point in passing a dirty law then having to waste the time to clean it up when you can just wait and pass it clean to begin with?

Seriously though good question and I won't argue with it. I'm just not a fan of the pass it now clean it up later mantality. In part because we'll be sitting around with a dirty law for a couple years before it gets cleaned up if it ever gets cleaned up. If they want to keep the amendment they need to also amend or rewrite 948.605(2)(b) so that the exception covers those who recieve permits to carry on a state CCW permit as the permits to carry they made exception for do not exist and never will exist.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:13:31 AM EDT

[#12]

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Can you imagine what it would take to get a AK/VT carry bill? Christ this bill is fat with B.S. but better than what is here now.

It's a whole hell of a lot better than what we have now, and will be tweaked to make it even better yet.

The idea of waiting to get the "perfect" bill passed is just about as naive as the crap the WGO claims to believe. This would be the biggest step forward that this state has ever experienced in this arena, but some her want to toss it out 'cause it isn't enough for them. Never mind the simple little fact that it leaves us miles ahead of where we are currently. Never mind that further changes will be made in coming sessions as the anti fuss and fury dies down. Some of us might have to avoid certain small areas until the law is tweaked, so let's stick with a complete and total prohibition instead.

Photoman, newbie, I know both of you. I really expected a more logical response from each of you. This gets us 95% of the way, and it makes obtaining the remaining 5% in the next few years obtainable. Instead, you advocate rejecting it out of hand and waiting to see what we can get after 20 pro gun representatives retire in the next year???? Have you guys taken up crack????

Take the god damn free car, and quit bitching that it doesn't have a CD player.

Tommy,

You make some good points. I had no idea that 20 repubs were going to be gone next year. With that in mind, it is very risky to hope that Doyle goes and those 20 are all replaced by 20 more repubs who are also pro-2nd or at least pro-CCW.

Also, I agree with your analogies about taking the free car and not bitching about no CD player or the 90 yard run, but no TD. My only fear is that we get the PPA passed and then a good majority of the people who fought for CCW in WI become pacified and don't fight to make it better. If that were the case, then I think the TJ quote would aptly apply:

"It is a short sighted err to accept a right as a privilege and declare it a victory."

In which case, I would rather kill it and wait/hope for a better bill, National CCW, or hope the WI SC would eventually rule in our favor *cough*.

I am still not sure exactly how I feel about this bill yet. I will have to think it over some more, and when I have time read over it more carefully, but I am beginning to think that this new amendment is not the end of the world and not something worth torpedoing the bill over. I only hope that all the people who fought so hard for the PPA will continue to fight on restore our true 2nd amendment rights in this state, as that is the only true victory.

Keeping it in perspective, passing the PPA is only winning a battle, not the war. If that is the attitude we all keep throught this, then as is, the PPA is at least a step in the right direction, even though it's far from perfect.

ETA: Photoman,

Think of it this way. If later on we get the seats in state government to pass a clean bill, then woud it be safe to assume those same new politicians would also be willing to clean up a previously passed, but imperfect bill? The more I think about it, the more I think we need to just take this opportunity. I can deal with avoiding school zones for now, or go unarmed if I plan to walk past them (just like I do now), so long as I know that we will continue to fight the war.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:13:53 AM EDT

[#13]

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So basically you think that there's no hope of passing a clean bill, and that passing this crappy one will leave us stuck with it because it will give the courts something to point to in concealed carry cases, wheras without the bill passed they'd have to reconcile the concealed carry ban with the state RKBA amendment?

All I can say to that is that I do not trust the courts and expect they'll fugg us over as bad as anyone else in government.

I think we'll have a better chance after the november elections to pass a clean bill.

Ok, then forgetting about the courts, if we have the numbers to pass a clean bill as of november, why wouldn't we have the numbers to clean this one up? And if we can clean it up, why not get it now and clean it up later.

Whats the point in passing a dirty law then having to waste the time to clean it up when you can just wait and pass it clean to begin with?

Becaues then we'll have at least SOME provision for legal CONCEALED carry. As opposed to having NOTHING while we wait for something better to come along. And if we have the support to pass something better at some point in the future, we'll have the support to remove restrictions from the current bill.

I wouldn't consider it "wasting time" to remove even restrictions on carry.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:14:44 AM EDT

[#14]

Geez, I better tag this thread. It's getting pretty complicated...

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:18:00 AM EDT

[#15]

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I only hope that all the people who fought so hard for the PPA will continue to fight

Take that same line of thought one step further:

We'll have half the enemies fighting against us after a year of concealed carry without any "blood in the streets".

Two years? Half that again.

Either you trust me to carry a gun, or you do not.

"All the horror stories I thought would come to pass didn't happen. I think its worked out well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I'm a convert."
--Glenn White, president of the Dallas Police Association

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:23:29 AM EDT

[#16]

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You guys might get pissed at me for saying so but where I live I can open carry all the time, and typically do so it is not worth it to me to pass a POS bill.
This bill refers to concealed carry, not open,

That would seem to be obvious and I am hardly a noob around here so why be condescending?
I am against this but felt it fair to interject an admittance of bias. It is not as big a deal to me as it is to some of you in the socialist southern portion of the state. I carry a sidearm minimum when I go out up here. Hell, half the time I have an AR or an AK.
Too many predators, too many FIBs.

However, I would still like to see CCW pass.
Get rid of Doyle and use the CCW bill as a way to motivate people to get him out of Madison. Then this will likely fly through as a cleaner bill. I see the likelihood of fixing this later as being minimal.

and I can't imagine anyone getting pissed about your opinion as long as you keep it to yourself, that is, please don't go off the deep end and start writing letters to legislators asking them not to vote for an override or go and make a donation to the Joyce Foundation - that'd be really, really stupid - whereas your opinion is just what it is.

You've really got to be shitting me bud.
I don't remember EVER doing anything to you to justify your coming off like a dick to me.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:25:28 AM EDT

[#17]

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So basically you think that there's no hope of passing a clean bill, and that passing this crappy one will leave us stuck with it because it will give the courts something to point to in concealed carry cases, wheras without the bill passed they'd have to reconcile the concealed carry ban with the state RKBA amendment?

All I can say to that is that I do not trust the courts and expect they'll fugg us over as bad as anyone else in government.

I think we'll have a better chance after the november elections to pass a clean bill.

Ok, then forgetting about the courts, if we have the numbers to pass a clean bill as of november, why wouldn't we have the numbers to clean this one up? And if we can clean it up, why not get it now and clean it up later.

Whats the point in passing a dirty law then having to waste the time to clean it up when you can just wait and pass it clean to begin with?

Becaues then we'll have at least SOME provision for legal CONCEALED carry. As opposed to having NOTHING while we wait for something better to come along. And if we have the support to pass something better at some point in the future, we'll have the support to remove restrictions from the current bill.

I wouldn't consider it "wasting time" to remove even restrictions on carry.

You do realise that even if this bill is taken car of next month and becomes law we may not be able to get permits till months if not a year later. Someone is going to take this law to court to fight it's implimentation, the WDOJ could drag thier feet in implementing the issueing of permits and also the credentialing of instructors. And now since kow towing to the LE brass, we can't carry on an out of state non res permit. Ther eis the chance that even though we have the law that we wiconsin residents may not be able to carry for anywhere up to year after the bill becomes law. So again what does passing it now do for us? nothing becuase the only people that could carry are non Wisconsin residents with out of state permits, and LEOs.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:35:42 AM EDT

[#18]

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I don't remember EVER doing anything to you to justify your coming off like a dick to me.

I still remember your "it'll never happen" comments back on Corey's PPA thread in the 2003 go around.

Color me surprised to see you write that you’d actually like to see it pass.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:38:46 AM EDT

[#19]

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So again what does passing it now do for us? nothing becuase the only people that could carry are non Wisconsin residents with out of state permits, and LEOs.

It's a step towards legalizing cc. So what if it takes a year to implement. At least it gets the ball rolling IN OUR DIRECTION.

We can chip away at the anti-gun stuff just like they've chipped away at our ability to legally exercise our rights.

Like someone mentioned above, AK had shall issue first, and then improved.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:39:14 AM EDT

[#20]

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Someone is going to take this law to court to fight it's implimentation,

So? Happened in MO & MN too. I'll be shocked if that doesn't happen here.

Dude - what's going on? Are you being held hostage by someone?

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:42:54 AM EDT

[#21]

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I don't remember EVER doing anything to you to justify your coming off like a dick to me.

I still remember your "it'll never happen" comments back on Corey's PPA thread in the 2003 go around.

So what?
I was correct, was I not?
How does that correlate with my being against CCW?
How do you know I didn't contact my reps? In fact I did. Even Sherman, that fat prick because I knew what he was going to do. He is in the next district over.

Color me surprised to see you write that you’d actually like to see it pass.

<deleted>Ehh, forget it. Just not worth it.

Anyone who thinks I would be against any RKBA laws ought to see a shrink.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:46:14 AM EDT

[#22]

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Someone is going to take this law to court to fight it's implimentation,

So? Happened in MO & MN too. I'll be shocked if that doesn't happen here.

Dude - what's going on? Are you being held hostage by someone?

Nope not being held hostage.

So, you guys are all hell bent on passing this to get it passed but it does no good if it's passed and no one who is a resident of the state can carry. Why rush it then?

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:51:58 AM EDT

[#23]

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You do realise that even if this bill is taken car of next month and becomes law we may not be able to get permits till months if not a year later. Someone is going to take this law to court to fight it's implimentation, the WDOJ could drag thier feet in implementing the issueing of permits and also the credentialing of instructors. And now since kow towing to the LE brass, we can't carry on an out of state non res permit. Ther eis the chance that even though we have the law that we wiconsin residents may not be able to carry for anywhere up to year after the bill becomes law. So again what does passing it now do for us? nothing becuase the only people that could carry are non Wisconsin residents with out of state permits, and LEOs.

When I lived in Michigan and was working to get the CCW law passed there we had a handful of people like you. The old Michigan system allowed for those with connections to get a permit bu 95% of the state didn't have connections. Those that did were just like saying "I have mine so screw everyone else. Don't mess with the good thing that have." Well you are being selfish and holding back the rest of the state with your attitude.

What good will a bad law do you, a law that has too many restrictions, a law that will be challenged in court, a law that some agencies will drag their feet while issuing, well that is exactly what Michigan started with 5 years ago and look where they are now. Michigan has already made several improvements to their CCW law. Michigan could not have passed the law they have now by "waiting", it would not have happend. I dare you to try and tell a Michigan resident with a CCW permit that they would be better off with nothing and that they should still be waiting for the perfect CCW bill. If you don't start the ball rolling at some level then you will never get the ball rolling.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:52:01 AM EDT

[#24]

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So, you guys are all hell bent on passing this to get it passed but it does no good if it's passed

No good? It's another step towards legalizing concealed carry. How do you equate "takes some time to get implemented" with "does no good"?

Why rush it then?

You have to start somewhere.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:57:43 AM EDT

[#25]

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So, you guys are all hell bent on passing this to get it passed but it does no good if it's passed

No good? It's another step towards legalizing concealed carry.
so was the Hamdan decision
How do you equate "takes some time to get implemented" with "does no good"?
If the law is passed and I still can't carry where exactly am I again in realtion to no law? How are things better for us? They are not because we still can not exercise that privilage afforded by the law.

Why rush it then?

You have to start somewhere.

We already did start.

Posted: 12/14/2005 10:59:20 AM EDT

[#26]

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You do realise that even if this bill is taken car of next month and becomes law we may not be able to get permits till months if not a year later. Someone is going to take this law to court to fight it's implimentation, the WDOJ could drag thier feet in implementing the issueing of permits and also the credentialing of instructors. And now since kow towing to the LE brass, we can't carry on an out of state non res permit. Ther eis the chance that even though we have the law that we wiconsin residents may not be able to carry for anywhere up to year after the bill becomes law. So again what does passing it now do for us? nothing becuase the only people that could carry are non Wisconsin residents with out of state permits, and LEOs.

When I lived in Michigan and was working to get the CCW law passed there we had a handful of people like you. The old Michigan system allowed for those with connections to get a permit bu 95% of the state didn't have connections. Those that did were just like saying "I have mine so screw everyone else. Don't mess with the good thing that have." Well you are being selfish and holding back the rest of the state with your attitude.

What good will a bad law do you, a law that has too many restrictions, a law that will be challenged in court, a law that some agencies will drag their feet while issuing, well that is exactly what Michigan started with 5 years ago and look where they are now. Michigan has already made several improvements to their CCW law. Michigan could not have passed the law they have now by "waiting", it would not have happend. I dare you to try and tell a Michigan resident with a CCW permit that they would be better off with nothing and that they should still be waiting for the perfect CCW bill. If you don't start the ball rolling at some level then you will never get the ball rolling.

Um you don't know me you don't know why I have the views I do on this law. You don't know where I'm comming from on this issue so kindly fuck off.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:00:41 AM EDT

[#27]

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So, you guys are all hell bent on passing this to get it passed but it does no good if it's passed

No good? It's another step towards legalizing concealed carry.
so was the Hamdan decision

And that makes passing a cc bill a bad idea why?

How do you equate "takes some time to get implemented" with "does no good"?
If the law is passed and I still can't carry where exactly am I again in realtion to no law? How are things better for us? They are not because we still can not exercise that privilage afforded by the law.

Why rush it then?

You have to start somewhere.

We already did start.

How are things better for us? We have a law on the books. So now instead of fighting to get the law on the books AND THEN fighting to get it implemented, we just have to fight to get it implemented.

Where exactly are you? Closer to having legalized carry than you were before.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:04:03 AM EDT

[#28]

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You don't know where I'm comming from on this issue so kindly(bleeeeeeeeeeep)

Hey! Hey! Come on now!

Do I have to flick the light switch on and off?

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:05:42 AM EDT

[#29]

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So, you guys are all hell bent on passing this to get it passed but it does no good if it's passed

No good? It's another step towards legalizing concealed carry.
so was the Hamdan decision

And that makes passing a cc bill a bad idea why?

How do you equate "takes some time to get implemented" with "does no good"?
If the law is passed and I still can't carry where exactly am I again in realtion to no law? How are things better for us? They are not because we still can not exercise that privilage afforded by the law.

Why rush it then?

You have to start somewhere.

We already did start.

How are things better for us? We have a law on the books. So now instead of fighting to get the law on the books AND THEN fighting to get it implemented, we just have to fight to get it implemented.

Where exactly are you? Closer to having legalized carry than you were before.

Hmm the Hamdan decision did more to get us CCW right now then all the work to get this bill passed has done to this point. And the Fisher case may add to that by opening up CCW in vehicals as an extention of the home or business.

The court has done more to get us CCW with the handma decision alone then all the efforts to get this law passed have. Before Hamdan we had total prohibition, after we don't.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:10:27 AM EDT

[#30]

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So, you guys are all hell bent on passing this to get it passed but it does no good if it's passed

No good? It's another step towards legalizing concealed carry.
so was the Hamdan decision

And that makes passing a cc bill a bad idea why?

How do you equate "takes some time to get implemented" with "does no good"?
If the law is passed and I still can't carry where exactly am I again in realtion to no law? How are things better for us? They are not because we still can not exercise that privilage afforded by the law.

Why rush it then?

You have to start somewhere.

We already did start.

How are things better for us? We have a law on the books. So now instead of fighting to get the law on the books AND THEN fighting to get it implemented, we just have to fight to get it implemented.

Where exactly are you? Closer to having legalized carry than you were before.

Hmm the Hamdan decision did more to get us CCW right now then all the work to get this bill passed has done to this point. And the Fisher case may add to that by opening up CCW in vehicals as an extention of the home or business.

The court has done more to get us CCW with the handma decision alone then all the efforts to get this law passed have. Before Hamdan we had total prohibition, after we don't.

so why again does that mean passing the concealed carry bill is bad? Can't do both?

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:14:19 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
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You don't know where I'm comming from on this issue so kindly(bleeeeeeeeeeep)

Hey! Hey! Come on now!

Do I have to flick the light switch on and off?

Nope, but if you don't know me I don't take kindly to people doing the "folks like you" shit. He has no idea why I feel the way I do about this law and this issue. In actuallity most of the people on this board don't know why I feel the way I do about this law and this issue and in all seriousness yall, with few exceptions, probably never will. I'm very pro CCW just not when the bill is a bad bill in my eyes. Like I said I'd have taken the bill as introduced I'd have even taken it with the LE notification BS in it. But due to the wording of the excptions in the referanced amnendment I can not accept that because it is not an exception that will cover a CCW holder unless they amend the statute to cover state CCW holders.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:15:40 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Um you don't know me you don't know why I have the views I do on this law. You don't know where I'm comming from on this issue so kindly fuck off.

Relax! Sheesh.

Hell, I know you and can't figure out where you are coming from on this issue.

Av.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:17:25 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Um you don't know me you don't know why I have the views I do on this law. You don't know where I'm comming from on this issue so kindly fuck off.

Relax! Sheesh.

Hell, I know you and can't figure out where you are coming from on this issue.

Av.

Thats cuz you don't know me well enough.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:17:59 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So, you guys are all hell bent on passing this to get it passed but it does no good if it's passed

No good? It's another step towards legalizing concealed carry.
so was the Hamdan decision

And that makes passing a cc bill a bad idea why?

How do you equate "takes some time to get implemented" with "does no good"?
If the law is passed and I still can't carry where exactly am I again in realtion to no law? How are things better for us? They are not because we still can not exercise that privilage afforded by the law.

Why rush it then?

You have to start somewhere.

We already did start.

How are things better for us? We have a law on the books. So now instead of fighting to get the law on the books AND THEN fighting to get it implemented, we just have to fight to get it implemented.

Where exactly are you? Closer to having legalized carry than you were before.

Hmm the Hamdan decision did more to get us CCW right now then all the work to get this bill passed has done to this point. And the Fisher case may add to that by opening up CCW in vehicals as an extention of the home or business.

The court has done more to get us CCW with the handma decision alone then all the efforts to get this law passed have. Before Hamdan we had total prohibition, after we don't.

so why again does that mean passing the concealed carry bill is bad? Can't do both?

Never said it was bad, just that passing a bad bill is bad and I feelthat right now with all the BS added it is a bad bill.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:18:16 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Hmm the Hamdan decision did more to get us CCW right now then all the work to get this bill passed has done to this point. And the Fisher case may add to that by opening up CCW in vehicals as an extention of the home or business.

The court has done more to get us CCW with the handma decision alone then all the efforts to get this law passed have. Before Hamdan we had total prohibition, after we don't.

I don't think Hamden was all that great of a decision. CCW on your own property or place of business? Not really that much of a stride IMHO.

The Court was very specific in their ruling, and nothing is stopping them from doing so again.

Av.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:20:34 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmm the Hamdan decision did more to get us CCW right now then all the work to get this bill passed has done to this point. And the Fisher case may add to that by opening up CCW in vehicals as an extention of the home or business.

The court has done more to get us CCW with the handma decision alone then all the efforts to get this law passed have. Before Hamdan we had total prohibition, after we don't.

I don't think Hamden was all that great of a decision. CCW on your own property or place of business? Not really that much of a stride IMHO.

The Court was very specific in their ruling, and nothing is stopping them from doing so again.

Av.

When you consider that a firearm in a safe in yer house was considered CCW before handman I'd say it did a good bit. And again before the decision you could not legaly carry concealed in yer home or on your property or in your own business, now you can. It's more of a stride then anything else bfore it.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:20:36 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Thats cuz you don't know me well enough.

Next time I'm at the Club, I'll make sure double up on the Hoppes #9 and take you out to a nice dinner.

Av.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:22:11 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Thats cuz you don't know me well enough.

Next time I'm at the Club, I'll make sure double up on the Hoppes #9 and take you out to a nice dinner.

Av.

Next time I run into you out at the club remind me and we'll talk about it.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:23:33 AM EDT

[#39]

So how many of you CCW at home or out on yer property or in yer business? Is anyone actually taking advatage of the Hamdan decision.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:26:16 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

so why again does that mean passing the concealed carry bill is bad? Can't do both?

Never said it was bad, just that passing a bad bill is bad and I feelthat right now with all the BS added it is a bad bill.

This is starting to sound like a "what the definition of 'is' is" thing.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:26:30 AM EDT

[#41]

Fisher is using a constitutional defense thanks to Hamdan.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:27:47 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
So how many of you CCW at home or out on yer property or in yer business? Is anyone actually taking advatage of the Hamdan decision.

Yes, I am.

Posted: 12/14/2005 11:32:31 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Fisher is using a constitutional defense thanks to Hamdan.

yes yes he is.

Hamdan also setup an affermitive defense to CCW. As you pointed oput in another thread.

Did the defendant’s interest in concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms substantially outweigh the State’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapon statute in the given circumstance?
Under the same circumstances, did the defendant lack a reasonable alternative to concealment while exercising his or her constitutional right to bear arms?
If you can answer yes to both of those, it's going to be hard for a DA to get a conviction especially considering that in orer to charge you with CCW the DA also has to be able to prove that you went armed with a CCW with the intent of commiting a nefarious act. Thats not something any DA is going to be able to prove when it comes to the vast majority of people. As well they have to show that you had some other resonable means to carry said weapon. That was also part of hamdan.

Posted: 12/14/2005 12:13:50 PM EDT

[#44]

E. Michael McCann, the Milwaukee DA that ordered the MPD to go and arrest Munir Hamdan for CCW in his own store, announced he was retiring today.

Posted: 12/14/2005 12:31:06 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
E. Michael McCann, the Milwaukee DA that ordered the MPD to go and arrest Munir Hamdan for CCW in his own store, announced he was retiring today.

Great guy. Maybe we can get him to run for Governor.

Posted: 12/14/2005 12:36:57 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted:
E. Michael McCann, the Milwaukee DA that ordered the MPD to go and arrest Munir Hamdan for CCW in his own store, announced he was retiring today.

Great guy. Maybe we can get him to run for Governor.

Posted: 12/14/2005 12:41:13 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It won't get fixed later.

Yeah, because no state with CCW has ever started with restrictive rules and made them less restrictive as time went on.Vermont

Sheesh.

This isn't other states this is Wisconisn.

And the FOPA (the example cited) was federal, not state.

For all the boneheaded "I'd rather have no CCW than this law", consider that 20 republicans are retiring the next election. If doyle wins again, getting it overridden may not happen anytime soon.

And if walker gets elected, all that's needed to amend the bill is a simple majority.

So work to support the bill now and then work to get walker elected. Whining on the internet how it isn't a perfect bill is simply pathetic. Do something productive with what you have instead of bitching about what you don't have.

Posted: 12/14/2005 12:41:55 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Quoted:
You do realise that even if this bill is taken car of next month and becomes law we may not be able to get permits till months if not a year later. Someone is going to take this law to court to fight it's implimentation, the WDOJ could drag thier feet in implementing the issueing of permits and also the credentialing of instructors. And now since kow towing to the LE brass, we can't carry on an out of state non res permit. Ther eis the chance that even though we have the law that we wiconsin residents may not be able to carry for anywhere up to year after the bill becomes law. So again what does passing it now do for us? nothing becuase the only people that could carry are non Wisconsin residents with out of state permits, and LEOs.

When I lived in Michigan and was working to get the CCW law passed there we had a handful of people like you. The old Michigan system allowed for those with connections to get a permit bu 95% of the state didn't have connections. Those that did were just like saying "I have mine so screw everyone else. Don't mess with the good thing that have." Well you are being selfish and holding back the rest of the state with your attitude.

What good will a bad law do you, a law that has too many restrictions, a law that will be challenged in court, a law that some agencies will drag their feet while issuing, well that is exactly what Michigan started with 5 years ago and look where they are now. Michigan has already made several improvements to their CCW law. Michigan could not have passed the law they have now by "waiting", it would not have happend. I dare you to try and tell a Michigan resident with a CCW permit that they would be better off with nothing and that they should still be waiting for the perfect CCW bill. If you don't start the ball rolling at some level then you will never get the ball rolling.

Please don't confuse the whiners with logic.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ccw in Wisconsin ... passed senate! passed assembly! (back to the senate, bad amendment added) (Page 2 of 2)

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