Quoted: I think taxpayers should be the only ones that vote....and I don't know how that will work with sales tax, but it is a start...

Having spent the last several months working for the .gov in a public service capacity, I think the following would be entirely appropriate...if not for so many limp-dick liberal pussies.

1) Court-ordered review of sterilization for homeless/mentally ill, norplant for welfare recipients
2) NO more EITC
3) NO more AFDC
4) NO more allowing the homeless, sick, and crazy to inhabit public spaces paid for by TAXPAYERS that are not designated Loony Tune Hangouts (e.g. parks, public libraries, etc.)
5) Reinstate the enforcement of vagrancy laws
6) The vote is extended only to property owners/taxpayers (You don't like this one?  Too fuckin' bad.  No longer would the leeches and non-hackers get to help decide how to spend MY fucking money.)
7) Do away with the 'just because Rosie Sanchez managed to drop her baby on this side of the Rio Grande, that makes him an American citizen' bullshit.
8) NO medical assistance outside of stabilization and transport to the border for illegals

That's just for starters.

You sterilization people are insane.


Just get rid of government welfare completely. No need for police state BS like sterilizing people and removing voting rights.

Quoted: All I'm asking is that you attack the idea instead of attacking the people making the idea by making assumptions about who that person is.  It just demeans your own arguement. IMHO

Guys like the guy you reprimanded for the racial term are digging their own holes through their commentary and making the use of the term I used quite appropriate. Sorry that you don't agree.

Quoted: Just get rid of government welfare completely. No need for police state BS like sterilizing people and removing voting rights.

No. It is the job of Government to provide for poor people.

It says so right in the US Constitution: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."

See?

Quoted: Quoted: All I'm asking is that you attack the idea instead of attacking the people making the idea by making assumptions about who that person is.  It just demeans your own arguement. IMHO Guys like the guy you reprimanded for the racial term are digging their own holes through their commentary and making the use of the term I used quite appropriate. Sorry that you don't agree.

So let me get this straight, you are saying... because he's proven himself to be a racist scumbag, it's ok for you to be a scumbag too (as long as you do it to a lesser degree)?

Brilliant logic.

Quoted: Quoted: Just get rid of government welfare completely. No need for police state BS like sterilizing people and removing voting rights. No. It is the job of Government to provide for poor people. It says so right in the US Constitution: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." See?

Oh damn. I guess I missed that part. Is that next to the part where it says "all men are created equal and are all given the right to eternal healthcare"?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just get rid of government welfare completely. No need for police state BS like sterilizing people and removing voting rights. No. It is the job of Government to provide for poor people. It says so right in the US Constitution: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." See? Oh damn. I guess I missed that part. Is that next to the part where it says "all men are created equal and are all given the right to eternal healthcare"? Where does it say that?  I want that without having to pay $300 a month!!  dammit, snizzel frazzel

Quoted: Hey here's a novel idea. No Federal welfare of ANY kind! NO WIC NO Federal School Lunch Program NO Federal School Breakfast Program NO Federal Headstart Program NO Food Stamps NO Child & Adult Care Food Program NO Aid to families with dependant children NO Public Housing NO Section 8 Housing NO Housing Subsidies NO Heating/utilities subsidies NO Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) NO Agriculture Subsidies NO Corporate Subsidies NO Medicare NO Medicaid NO Earned Income Tax Credit NO MORE FEDERAL CHARITY!!! "I feel obliged to withhold my approval of the plan to indulge in benevolent and charitable sentiment through the appropriation of public funds. ... I find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution." ~ President Grover Cleveland, 1887, in vetoing an appropriation to help drought-stricken counties in Texas. "I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for public charity... (such spending) would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded." ~ President Franklin Pierce, 1854; vetoing an appropriation bill to help the mentally ill. "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." ~ Thomas Jefferson, in 1817. "With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers (enumerated in the Constitution) connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." ~ James Madison, in 1788. "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." ~ James Madison, in 1792 objecting to Congress appropriating $15,000 to assist French refugees.

Ok Mr. Man, what happens to the people who through no fault of their own have no source of income!   I screwed up and married an SOB!  Am I out of luck now?  Why can't I get a little help to get me on my feet?  I did my job!  I stayed at home and raised my kids!  Aren't alot of you guys preaching that?  No, we shouldn't pay for serial baby makers!  My holy cow!  There are people out there who honestly need extra help in order to be a a productive citizen!

 If the person is able bodied lets just give them some kind of a .gov job like picking up trash or any other menial task and have a few rules they MUST comply with.  Be to work on time, can't be drunk, etc. If rules are broken they forfeit the paycheck. If disabled we allready give disability through social security.

Quoted: Ok Mr. Man, what happens to the people who through no fault of their own have no source of income!   I screwed up and married an SOB!  Am I out of luck now?

So you're demanding that the government (i.e. everybody else) make up for YOUR mistakes? Is that government's job, to make up for people's mistakes?

Just where in the Constitution does it delegate power to Gov't to hand out money to "poor people" just because they spread their legs for some "SOB" that they CHOSE?

Quoted: Why can't I get a little help to get me on my feet?  I did my job!  I stayed at home and raised my kids!  Aren't alot of you guys preaching that?

You can. There are a LOT of private charities that do this.

But don't put a gun to everybody else's head and demand that they open their wallet to give YOU money because you're too irresponsible, reckless, selfish, naive or ignorant to take care of yourself and BE PREPARED for emergencies.  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? How come you have such limited marketable skills that you can't find even an entry-level job to take care of yourself after a few months of "hard times"?

Individual responsibility is what we need, not Federal welfare. And in the rare cases that people "fall through the cracks", that's what private charity is for.

There are ten billion customer service phone jobs in the world.  I worked at a couple of them in my younger years.  The CSR's take about 8-10 calls an hour.  Couldn't it be possible for a person that needed to stay home with little ones to do one of these jobs and be paid per phonecall rather than per hour?  That way, they are still taking care of the kid, he cries, they finish up the phonecall they are on, and take care of him.  Calls can be routed to a residence.  I bet there are a billion jobs that can be done like this.  I'm sure there in a two week training period where the person would have to be on-site...

Now I'm sure Tc556 is going to call me an armchair warrior again.

Is it better to think of and express ideas that will probably never com to fruition
or to complain about how everyone's ideas suck?

Id like something that would help cut it down.  Tired of people who dont work living better then me.  Expect I could come up with some ideas but alot of people wouldnt like them

Quoted: Ok Mr. Man, what happens to the people who through no fault of their own have no source of income!   I screwed up and married an SOB!  Am I out of luck now?  Why can't I get a little help to get me on my feet?  I did my job!  I stayed at home and raised my kids!  Aren't alot of you guys preaching that?  No, we shouldn't pay for serial baby makers!  My holy cow!  There are people out there who honestly need extra help in order to be a productive citizen!

1)  If your ex doesn't pay child support/alimony then the state should garnish his wages.  If he doesn't work or refuses to work then he gets thrown in jail.

2)  Do you have any family/friends that can help?

3)  Do you belong to a church or other religious organization that can help?

If in fact your situation is as you briefly describe, then sure you can 'get a little help to get me on my feet".  Realize that your situation would describe only a tiny fraction of those receiving aid.


tc556guy,

You have shown your colors yet again--Red Communist.  You can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that some laws are unjust and unconstitutional.  

"Then vote for people who will repeal them".  

You can't repeal laws when you allow people who live off .gov to vote as well.  You can't seem to wrap your head around that concept either.

Quoted: Now I'm sure Tc556 is going to call me an armchair warrior again.

Don't get too frazzled by Komrad tc556guy.  He would defend any law no matter how unconstitutional or unjust.  Be it another Federal AWB or stealing my money to give to 3rd generation welfare scum.

Quoted: I don't know anyone who can live on $8/ hour. Around here, the bare minimum calculated living wage is well above that.

well i made 8 bucks and hour cleared about 270 a week or about 1080 a month

apartment was 485
electric about   100
no phone or cable
truck was paid for ( junker )
gas 80 a month
ins was 150 a month

i ate about 25 bucks a week, i bought 10 bucks in odle of noodles a gallon of milk and some cheap meat and vegies. i ate 3 packs of noodles per day at work, and 2 at home with veggies and meat thrown in for some extra flavor. i also did some side work for about a 100 a month just to pay for cigs

it can be done, and i am not saying my idea or anybody elses idea is the one answer, but i am sick of driving thru the section 8 areas and seeing cars that are new and nicer than mine ( mostly lexus and bmw ) i am sick of seeing them tear down old houses and building houses that would sell for 250,000 dollars being given to families for a monthly payment of 300, and these people work part time. basicly i pay about 35 % of my paycheck out, and then i see some one who does nothing living better than i do

Quoted: Quoted: Ok Mr. Man, what happens to the people who through no fault of their own have no source of income!   I screwed up and married an SOB!  Am I out of luck now? So you're demanding that the government (i.e. everybody else) make up for YOUR mistakes? Is that government's job, to make up for people's mistakes? Just where in the Constitution does it delegate power to Gov't to hand out money to "poor people" just because they spread their legs for some "SOB" that they CHOSE? Quoted: Why can't I get a little help to get me on my feet?  I did my job!  I stayed at home and raised my kids!  Aren't alot of you guys preaching that? You can. There are a LOT of private charities that do this. But don't put a gun to everybody else's head and demand that they open their wallet to give YOU money because you're too irresponsible, reckless, selfish, naive or ignorant to take care of yourself and BE PREPARED for emergencies.  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? How come you have such limited marketable skills that you can't find even an entry-level job to take care of yourself after a few months of "hard times"? Individual responsibility is what we need, not Federal welfare. And in the rare cases that people "fall through the cracks", that's what private charity is for.

Dude, you totally unleashed the evil me today!  I wasn't freaking irresposnsible!  I dated his ass for two flipping years!  Add tem years to that BS.  I dont' hav ethe money saved up because I was doing the right thing and staying home with my demon spawn.  On top of it all, asshole wouldn't bring home his freaking paycheck so I could pay the god damned bills!  Who fucking knows what the hell he was doing with it!  I have  limitied marketable skills because I stayed home to take care of my demon spawn!  Not that they're really that horrible or anything.  Isn't that what the freaking chick is supposed to do!  Stay at home to take care of the kids?  I freaking breast fed all of them because formula is a freaking rip off!  What the Hell Is a Chick supposed to fucking do?

Quoted: Quoted: Ok Mr. Man, what happens to the people who through no fault of their own have no source of income!   I screwed up and married an SOB!  Am I out of luck now? So you're demanding that the government (i.e. everybody else) make up for YOUR mistakes? Is that government's job, to make up for people's mistakes? Just where in the Constitution does it delegate power to Gov't to hand out money to "poor people" just because they spread their legs for some "SOB" that they CHOSE? Quoted: Why can't I get a little help to get me on my feet?  I did my job!  I stayed at home and raised my kids!  Aren't alot of you guys preaching that? You can. There are a LOT of private charities that do this. But don't put a gun to everybody else's head and demand that they open their wallet to give YOU money because you're too irresponsible, reckless, selfish, naive or ignorant to take care of yourself and BE PREPARED for emergencies.  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? How come you have such limited marketable skills that you can't find even an entry-level job to take care of yourself after a few months of "hard times"? Individual responsibility is what we need, not Federal welfare. And in the rare cases that people "fall through the cracks", that's what private charity is for.

Dude, you totally unleashed the evil me today!  I wasn't freaking irresposnsible!  I dated his ass for two flipping years!  Add tem years to that BS.  I dont' hav ethe money saved up because I was doing the right thing and staying home with my demon spawn.  On top of it all, asshole wouldn't bring home his freaking paycheck so I could pay the god damned bills!  Who fucking knows what the hell he was doing with it!  I have  limitied marketable skills because I stayed home to take care of my demon spawn!  Not that they're really that horrible or anything.  Isn't that what the freaking chick is supposed to do!  Stay at home to take care of the kids?  I freaking breast fed all of them because formula is a freaking rip off!  What the Hell Is a Chick supposed to fucking do?

Quoted: Quoted: Ok Mr. Man, what happens to the people who through no fault of their own have no source of income!   I screwed up and married an SOB!  Am I out of luck now? So you're demanding that the government (i.e. everybody else) make up for YOUR mistakes? Is that government's job, to make up for people's mistakes? Just where in the Constitution does it delegate power to Gov't to hand out money to "poor people" just because they spread their legs for some "SOB" that they CHOSE? Quoted: Why can't I get a little help to get me on my feet?  I did my job!  I stayed at home and raised my kids!  Aren't alot of you guys preaching that? You can. There are a LOT of private charities that do this. But don't put a gun to everybody else's head and demand that they open their wallet to give YOU money because you're too irresponsible, reckless, selfish, naive or ignorant to take care of yourself and BE PREPARED for emergencies.  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? How come you have such limited marketable skills that you can't find even an entry-level job to take care of yourself after a few months of "hard times"? Individual responsibility is what we need, not Federal welfare. And in the rare cases that people "fall through the cracks", that's what private charity is for.

Oh yeah, I didn't demand jack flipping squat.  I'm flipping mowing yards down here so I don't have to go there.!  I HAAATTTTTEEEEEE Welfare!  I don't want to go there.  You sir can kiss my ....

Quoted: Quoted: Ok Mr. Man, what happens to the people who through no fault of their own have no source of income!   I screwed up and married an SOB!  Am I out of luck now? So you're demanding that the government (i.e. everybody else) make up for YOUR mistakes? Is that government's job, to make up for people's mistakes? Just where in the Constitution does it delegate power to Gov't to hand out money to "poor people" just because they spread their legs for some "SOB" that they CHOSE? Quoted: Why can't I get a little help to get me on my feet?  I did my job!  I stayed at home and raised my kids!  Aren't alot of you guys preaching that? You can. There are a LOT of private charities that do this. But don't put a gun to everybody else's head and demand that they open their wallet to give YOU money because you're too irresponsible, reckless, selfish, naive or ignorant to take care of yourself and BE PREPARED for emergencies.  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? How come you have such limited marketable skills that you can't find even an entry-level job to take care of yourself after a few months of "hard times"? Individual responsibility is what we need, not Federal welfare. And in the rare cases that people "fall through the cracks", that's what private charity is for.

Oh yeah, I didn't demand jack flipping squat.  I'm flipping mowing yards down here so I don't have to go there.!  I HAAATTTTTEEEEEE Welfare!  I don't want to go there.  You sir can kiss my ....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ok Mr. Man, what happens to the people who through no fault of their own have no source of income!   I screwed up and married an SOB!  Am I out of luck now? So you're demanding that the government (i.e. everybody else) make up for YOUR mistakes? Is that government's job, to make up for people's mistakes? Just where in the Constitution does it delegate power to Gov't to hand out money to "poor people" just because they spread their legs for some "SOB" that they CHOSE? Quoted: Why can't I get a little help to get me on my feet?  I did my job!  I stayed at home and raised my kids!  Aren't alot of you guys preaching that? You can. There are a LOT of private charities that do this. But don't put a gun to everybody else's head and demand that they open their wallet to give YOU money because you're too irresponsible, reckless, selfish, naive or ignorant to take care of yourself and BE PREPARED for emergencies.  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? How come you have such limited marketable skills that you can't find even an entry-level job to take care of yourself after a few months of "hard times"? Individual responsibility is what we need, not Federal welfare. And in the rare cases that people "fall through the cracks", that's what private charity is for. Dude, you totally unleashed the evil me today!  I wasn't freaking irresposnsible!

Not MY problem so don't put a gun to MY head and filch MY wallet to bail YOU out.

Quoted: I dated his ass for two flipping years!

Not MY problem so don't put a gun to MY head and filch MY wallet to bail YOU out.

Quoted: Add tem years to that BS.

Not MY problem so don't put a gun to MY head and filch MY wallet to bail YOU out.

Quoted: I dont' hav ethe money saved up because I was doing the right thing and staying home with my demon spawn.

Not MY problem so don't put a gun to MY head and filch MY wallet to bail YOU out.

Quoted: On top of it all, asshole wouldn't bring home his freaking paycheck so I could pay the god damned bills!

Not MY problem so don't put a gun to MY head and filch MY wallet to bail YOU out.

Quoted: Who fucking knows what the hell he was doing with it!

Not MY problem so don't put a gun to MY head and filch MY wallet to bail YOU out.

Quoted: I have  limitied marketable skills because I stayed home to take care of my demon spawn!

Not MY problem so don't put a gun to MY head and filch MY wallet to bail YOU out.

You see a pattern yet?

Quoted: Isn't that what the freaking chick is supposed to do!  Stay at home to take care of the kids?  I freaking breast fed all of them because formula is a freaking rip off!

Not MY problem so don't put a gun to MY head and filch MY wallet to bail YOU out.

Quoted: What the Hell Is a Chick supposed to fucking do?

He was a deadbeat asshole BEFORE you married him - you were just too irresponsible, immature and in denial to see it. YOU naively chose to hitch your star to a deadbeat asshole. Again, it's not MY problem so don't put a gun to MY head and filch MY wallet to bail YOU out.

Quoted: Oh yeah, I didn't demand jack flipping squat.  I'm flipping mowing yards down here so I don't have to go there.!  I HAAATTTTTEEEEEE Welfare!  I don't want to go there.

Well then why the fuck are you complaining about me saying we should do away with Federal Welfare???

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ok Mr. Man, what happens to the people who through no fault of their own have no source of income!   I screwed up and married an SOB!  Am I out of luck now? So you're demanding that the government (i.e. everybody else) make up for YOUR mistakes? Is that government's job, to make up for people's mistakes? Just where in the Constitution does it delegate power to Gov't to hand out money to "poor people" just because they spread their legs for some "SOB" that they CHOSE? Quoted: Why can't I get a little help to get me on my feet?  I did my job!  I stayed at home and raised my kids!  Aren't alot of you guys preaching that? You can. There are a LOT of private charities that do this. But don't put a gun to everybody else's head and demand that they open their wallet to give YOU money because you're too irresponsible, reckless, selfish, naive or ignorant to take care of yourself and BE PREPARED for emergencies.  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? How come you have such limited marketable skills that you can't find even an entry-level job to take care of yourself after a few months of "hard times"? Individual responsibility is what we need, not Federal welfare. And in the rare cases that people "fall through the cracks", that's what private charity is for. Oh yeah, I didn't demand jack flipping squat.  I'm flipping mowing yards down here so I don't have to go there.!  I HAAATTTTTEEEEEE Welfare!  I don't want to go there.  You sir can kiss my ....

Shut up and get your ass in to apply for WIC assistance.  It's for your helpless kids, whom I'm inclined to give an hand up.

You need to admit your mistakes -
- You married a loser.  That's just one of the bad things that happens when 17 year olds are deciding what to do with the rest of their lives.
- You failed to make contingency plans for your welfare.  Let's suppose your husband was honorable and a good husband, and just up and died?  It happens every day.  Besides the fact of high failure rate of marriages that might have been a clue to be prepared.

You're trying to get by; good for you, but you are in far less whiny company.  There are millions of people in similar circumstances.  And it's not the taxpayers responsibility to support them; that's what their strong backs and families are for, and yours, too.

Quoted: Don't get too frazzled by Komrad tc556guy.  He would defend any law no matter how unconstitutional or unjust.  Be it another Federal AWB or stealing my money to give to 3rd generation welfare scum.

You know very well that I am not in favor of assault weapons bans. Thast been made quite clear in countless posts.

Quoted: So let me get this straight, you are saying... because he's proven himself to be a racist scumbag, it's ok for you to be a scumbag too (as long as you do it to a lesser degree)? Brilliant logic.

No, thats not what I am saying, nor does what I said make me a scumbag.

Quoted: [  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"?

You know, I keep seeing  this in posts here, but how realistic is that expectation, exactly? Thats for me would total about $30K. No one has 30K in the bank unless they were born to wealth or are one of those bag ladies that lives in squalor and then when they die the community finds out they left a million bucks to their cat or something. Your average person simply doesn't have that kind of cash set aside. When you are 22, you generally are making such a  low salary that you barely cover your bills. As you get older, you start getting married, buying a house, having kids, and all of those things eat up the  additional cash you are making by then.

Quoted: Quoted: [  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? You know, I keep seeing  this in posts here, but how realistic is that expectation, exactly? Thats for me would total about $30K. No one has 30K in the bank unless they were born to wealth or are one of those bag ladies that lives in squalor and then when they die the community finds out they left a million bucks to their cat or something. Your average person simply doesn't have that kind of cash set aside. When you are 22, you generally are making such a  low salary that you barely cover your bills. As you get older, you start getting married, buying a house, having kids, and all of those things eat up the  additional cash you are making by then.

Then you're living beyond your means.

Ditch the cellphone.
Unplug the cable TV.
Sell the second TV in the bedroom.
Get rid of the X-box.
Dump the cable modem.
Quit smoking.
Sell the bling-ricer ride. Get a cheaper ride or take the bus.
Quit blowing money at the mall.
Give up the nightclub scene on Saturday night.
Live in a cheaper place.

Make a budget, stick to it, work overtime and save your money.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: [  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? You know, I keep seeing  this in posts here, but how realistic is that expectation, exactly? Thats for me would total about $30K. No one has 30K in the bank unless they were born to wealth or are one of those bag ladies that lives in squalor and then when they die the community finds out they left a million bucks to their cat or something. Your average person simply doesn't have that kind of cash set aside. When you are 22, you generally are making such a  low salary that you barely cover your bills. As you get older, you start getting married, buying a house, having kids, and all of those things eat up the  additional cash you are making by then. Then you're living beyond your means. Ditch the cellphone. Unplug the cable TV. Sell the second TV in the bedroom. Get rid of the X-box. Dump the cable modem. Quit smoking. Sell the bling-ricer ride. Get a cheaper ride or take the bus. Quit blowing money at the mall. Give up the nightclub scene on Saturday night. Live in a cheaper place. Make a budget, stick to it, work overtime and save your money.

Screw that. When something goes wrong, it's easier to just have government thugs rob you at gunpoint and give the money to me.

Why be responsible?

Fixes:
Stop all Federal and State Welfare
Steralize people
Only Landowners can vote for anything involving schools
Only taxpayers can vote in state and federal elections

Quoted: Then you're living beyond your means. Ditch the cellphone. Unplug the cable TV. Sell the second TV in the bedroom. Get rid of the X-box. Dump the cable modem. Quit smoking. Sell the bling-ricer ride. Get a cheaper ride or take the bus. Quit blowing money at the mall. Give up the nightclub scene on Saturday night. Live in a cheaper place. Make a budget, stick to it, work overtime and save your money.

I don't think so, but thanks for your imput. You are essentially saying that almost all of America is living beyond their means, because I know of NO ONE who has 6 months salary in the bank. No one.

Your suggestion issaying essentially  that we live ina darkened house, never go out, eat  nothing but rice and hamburger, never DO anything, all so we can havve that magical 30 K in the bank. We would essentially BE that old bag lady I mentioned.

And about half of the things you mentioned don't even apply to ME ( although I don't think you meant it personally), but we ALL have our little hobbies that eat up our cash. Most of my coworkers have their ATVs, their boats, or they are in the process of building houses, that sort of thing. Many of you here buy a TON of guns, way more than I could personally justify to myself, but hey, thats your thing.People have their interests that they tend to spend their cash on, and not save it. The studies that show that most Americans only save about 2 % of their income support my statements and not yours.

I think that if they were completely honest in replying, most people here could not say that they have 6 months worth of salary stashed away.

Quoted: Quoted: Then you're living beyond your means. Ditch the cellphone. Unplug the cable TV. Sell the second TV in the bedroom. Get rid of the X-box. Dump the cable modem. Quit smoking. Sell the bling-ricer ride. Get a cheaper ride or take the bus. Quit blowing money at the mall. Give up the nightclub scene on Saturday night. Live in a cheaper place. Make a budget, stick to it, work overtime and save your money. I don't think so, but thanks for your imput. You are essentially saying that almost all of America is living beyond their means, because I know of NO ONE who has 6 months salary in the bank. No one.

Almost all of America DOES live beyond their means. How many people do you know who carry a credit card balance. That's living beyond your means. So is not having a raindy day fund saved up.

Your suggestion issaying essentially  that we live ina darkened house, never go out, eat  nothing but rice and hamburger, never DO anything, all so we can havve that magical 30 K in the bank. We would essentially BE that old bag lady I mentioned.

Once you have the fund saved up you no longer have to sacrifice as much (since you're no longer saving up the rainy day fund).

... I think that if they were completely honest in replying, most people here could not say that they have 6 months worth of salary stashed away.

I'll admit it. I only have three months, but I've got a very big family and non-government help is only a phonecall away if I ever need it.

Quoted: Quoted: Then you're living beyond your means. Ditch the cellphone. Unplug the cable TV. Sell the second TV in the bedroom. Get rid of the X-box. Dump the cable modem. Quit smoking. Sell the bling-ricer ride. Get a cheaper ride or take the bus. Quit blowing money at the mall. Give up the nightclub scene on Saturday night. Live in a cheaper place. Make a budget, stick to it, work overtime and save your money. I don't think so, but thanks for your imput.

Then don't come crying to me that you need to steal MY money because YOU refuse to live within your means.

Quoted: You are essentially saying that almost all of America is living beyond their means

Yep. Just like Red_Beard said. Just look at the rate of bankruptcy of people UNDER 30 years old. It's astoundingly high. Why? Because they are just like you - they REFUSE to do what it takes to live within their means.

Quoted: because I know of NO ONE who has 6 months salary in the bank. No one.

Actually, seven months myself.

Quoted: Your suggestion issaying essentially  that we live ina darkened house, never go out, eat  nothing but rice and hamburger, never DO anything, all so we can havve that magical 30 K in the bank. We would essentially BE that old bag lady I mentioned.

No, you'd be living within your means.

Sorry if you can't control your spending but that's part of being a responsible person.

Quoted: And about half of the things you mentioned don't even apply to ME ( although I don't think you meant it personally), but we ALL have our little hobbies that eat up our cash.

It's not "your" cash if you're receiving welfare.

(yeah, I don't mean precisely "you", but just for the sake of conversation...)

Quoted: Most of my coworkers have their ATVs, their boats, or they are in the process of building houses, that sort of thing.

Yeah and they probably have ENORMOUS consumer debt too.

Average American carries $8,000 just in credit card debt.
Average household carries a total of $18,000 in all consumer debts (not counting mortgage).

THAT is living beyond your means and THAT is why most Americans have virually NO savings. It's the culture of immediate-gratification that people have grown up in and live in all their lives that has crippled so many people until they are now essentially INCAPABLE of saving money. Saving money to them is like a heroin-addict trying to give up heroin. People are ADDICTED to the lifestyle of living beyond their means. And as you pointed out, to suggest that they do is unthinkable - "I refuse to live like a pauper even though I really am one".

Quoted: Many of you here buy a TON of guns, way more than I could personally justify to myself, but hey, thats your thing.

Yep. I don't know how any young kid could afford a new AR, let alone the half-dozen or more so many folks here flaunt.

I couldn't afford a "luxury firearm" until I was 37.

Quoted: People have their interests that they tend to spend their cash on, and not save it. The studies that show that most Americans only save about 2 % of their income support my statements and not yours.

First of all, it's probably less than 2%.

Second of all - my point is only that people CAN build up a 6-month savings if they live within their means. The fact that most people DON'T live within their means doesn't disprove my point. It only illustrates that the immediate-gratification mentality of so many Americans is why there is such a universal acceptance of Federal Welfare programs - too many Americans can't even CONCEIVE of being responible for themselves as proven by their enormous debt and lack of savings.

Quoted: I think that if they were completely honest in replying, most people here could not say that they have 6 months worth of salary stashed away.

I bet you're right.

Most, but not all.

Quoted: Quoted: [  If you're an adult over 22, how come you didn't have six months of income saved up by now so that you can get through "unlucky times"? You know, I keep seeing  this in posts here, but how realistic is that expectation, exactly? Thats for me would total about $30K. No one has 30K in the bank unless they were born to wealth or are one of those bag ladies that lives in squalor and then when they die the community finds out they left a million bucks to their cat or something. Your average person simply doesn't have that kind of cash set aside. When you are 22, you generally are making such a  low salary that you barely cover your bills. As you get older, you start getting married, buying a house, having kids, and all of those things eat up the  additional cash you are making by then.

Now you know someone.

My wife and I live fairly modestly and yet don't go without - that's one of the advantages of money set aside.  Zero credit card debt past the end of the month.  Save 100% of one salary.

My kids used to think we were poor - no cable or satellite, no cabin at the lake, only two cars, and so on, because the kids on the school bus always like to brag about their stuff.  Now they know better, that those kids have parents living from check to check but have built 4000 square foot custom homes that they can't afford.  They are also extremely vulnerable to the slightest turn of bad luck.

Quoted:

I don't think so, but thanks for your imput.Then don't come crying to me that you need to steal MY money because YOU refuse to live within your means.

I don't intend to come crying to you for anything.

Just like Red_Beard said. Just look at the rate of bankruptcy of people UNDER 30 years old. It's astoundingly high. Why? Because they are just like you - they REFUSE to do what it takes to live within their means.

First of all, thats your definition of living within your means. As long as the bills are getting paid, I see  a person as living within their means. This 6 months in the bank thing, thats just YOUR definition of it. And since you readily admit that most people don't meet your standard, I am not particularly worried, since its just your arbitrary yardstick.

As for me personally, like I said, about half of the things you listed don't even apply. The other ones, theres simply no wiggle room to change.

Actually, seven months myself.

Then you are the rarity, and you most likely have the good fortune of a good paying job and few expenses, such as kids that would suck your salary right down the tubes.

No, you'd be living within your means. Sorry if you can't control your spending but that's part of being a responsible person.

There is a certain quality of life; you have to be able to get out, do something, have some sort of rtecreation, entertainment, etc. Sitting alone in a dark house when you are not at work is not living, it is existing. Every calculation of what constitutes a living wage recognizes that there has to be a line item for some form of recreation, entertainment,, etc.

American carries $8,000 just in credit card debt. Average household carries a total of $18,000 in all consumer debts (not counting mortgage).

We are average in that respect. The credit cards are going  away this month when we refinance the house to get a better rate and intend to wrap a lot of the credit stuff into the loan at the same time. As for the 18K in consumer debt, I would assume that that incluides stuff like car loans. In that respect, we are average as well. If you want to drive a beater car that you pay $500 for out of pocket, thats on you. I have found through the years that a car thats cheap initially usually winds up costing an arm and a leg to maintain because its nearing the end of its serviceable life. Then when the cars been paid off for a couple of years, usually the repair bills start to skyrocket because the car is simply wearing out. Oh, I know a few folks who manage to get good deals on a  used car at auction or something like that, but things like car loans ARE a  fact of life. Most people simply don't have the cash in pocket to buy new or nearly-new cars out of pocket, and the price for a quality vehicle is a significant price tag. Its not for nothing that the cost of a vehicle is the second highest outlay in most people budget, behind the mortgage.

of all - my point is only that people CAN build up a 6-month savings if they live within their means. The fact that most people DON'T live within their means doesn't disprove my point. It only illustrates that the immediate-gratification mentality of so many Americans is why there is such a universal acceptance of Federal Welfare programs - too many Americans can't even CONCEIVE of being responible for themselves as proven by their enormous debt and lack of savings.

Six months of salary requires a huge amount of discretionary income. You would have to consistantly be able to lay aside about 50 % of your income for an extended period of time to reach that goal. Outside of a military guy who lives on post, has no dependants, eats at the DFAC and has most of his living expenses covered, who has that much truly discretionary income?My wife and I were talking about this ther other day; in her first marriage they were able to do that, but he was a highly paid technical guy, they were young with few expenses that your average American house  with kids simply HAS that are far from the wasteful expense that you seem to want to paint them as. This is particularly true as American wages have stagnated and expenses continue to skyrocket.

Quoted: Six months of salary requires a huge amount of discretionary income. You would have to consistantly be able to lay aside about 50 % of your income for an extended period of time to reach that goal.

Why 50%? You dont' have to build the fund instantly.

Save 15% of your salary each month and you'll have a six month fund built up in about 3 years.

Save 50% like you suggest and it's one year (extended period?).

Quoted: Why 50%? You dont' have to build the fund instantly. Save 15% of your salary each month and you'll have a six month fund built up in about 3 years. Save 50% like you suggest and it's one year (extended period?).

My experience has been that in the course of that 3 years, you'll have SEVERAL unexpected bills that will knock that nest egg right out of the bank account and send you right back to zero. Thinking of myself, I can think of at least 3 seperate instances in the last 3 years where unexpected car repair bills exceeding $1000 each  time hit us, and this month a $5000 septic system repair bill. Its harder to save 15 % or any % than you want to admit. In order for me to have some sort of guaranteed retirement funds, I send my savings to an IRA and deferred comp so that its out of sight, out of mind and unreachable. Putting that $$ into a regular account where its accessible means that SOMETHING will come up that demands the money be tapped into. Yes, I have a small account for anticipated repairs and that sort of thing, but the major repairs wipe it out in no time and it takes forever to get it built back up, at which time or even before, the NEXT big bill comes along. Back to square one

Quoted: Quoted: Just like Red_Beard said. Just look at the rate of bankruptcy of people UNDER 30 years old. It's astoundingly high. Why? Because they are just like you - they REFUSE to do what it takes to live within their means. First of all, thats your definition of living within your means. As long as the bills are getting paid, I see  a person as living within their means.

No - that's called "living paycheck-to-paycheck" and it's a recipe for financial disaster.

Quoted: This 6 months in the bank thing, thats just YOUR definition of it. And since you readily admit that most people don't meet your standard, I am not particularly worried, since its just your arbitrary yardstick.

Since average household income is about $45,000, you think it's okay to have over two months of your total income just in credit card debt???

Quoted: Actually, seven months myself.   Then you are the rarity, and you most likely have the good fortune of a good paying job and few expenses, such as kids that would suck your salary right down the tubes.

Oh bullshit.

It was NOT "good fortune" that I CHOSE to work my ass off in high school to get a good education so I could get into college while so many others goofed off, slacked off or hung out at the mall every weekend.

It was NOT "good fortune" that I CHOSE to work my ass off all the way through college so I wasn't buried in student loan debt when I graduated.

It was NOT "good fortune" that I CHOSE not to get drunk on weekends, show up late for work regularly with a hangover or underperform on the job so I could GET and KEEP a mediocre job for the experience.

It was NOT "good fortune" that I CHOSE to live in a low-income neighborhood for 6 years while in graduate school so I could save my money.

It was NOT "good fortune" that I CHOSE not to buy luxury firearms or other money-sucking toys and hobbies until I could WELL AFFORD them rather than whip out the credit card "because everyone else is in debt too".

It was NOT "good fortune" that I CHOSE not to hook up with an irresponsible woman or start a family with an "SOB".

It was NOT "good fortune" that I CHOSE not to go to Vegas three times a year or go to Mazatlan for Spring Break or "waste" my money on vacations that I couldn't afford.

It was NOT "good fortune" that I CHOSE to work hard, sacrifice, live cheaply and not follow the average American's path to enormous debt and financial irresponsibility.

The ONLY thing I may be "lucky" for is that I was in relatively good health - but then again, a person's lifestyle has a lot to do with their health.

I worked continuously from the time I turned 16 and in the past 26 years have been unemployed only once (for about 3 weeks). In high school and college I worked in the least-skilled jobs there are including cleanup shit-jobs on construction crews, in fast-food, in mind-numbing assembly lines, as a "lowly" janitor, as an office runner and I've also worked as a karate instructor, teaching assistant and lab tech too.

There was no job I "wouldn't" do and so I was ALWAYS employed and making money - and because of my CHOICES, I was always saving money too. Yeah, sometimes I was living paycheck-to-paycheck. But I KNEW that was living on the edge of a cliff and that it was NOT the way I should have been living. So as fast as mathematically possible I'd work myself into nearly ALWAYS having at least a couple months of savings to fall back on.  

So it was NOT "good fortune" that I CHOSE to live within my means and work my ass off and sacrifice so that I wasn't living paycheck-to-paycheck for extended times and actually DEFENDING such precarious choices.

Quoted: No, you'd be living within your means. Sorry if you can't control your spending but that's part of being a responsible person. There is a certain quality of life; you have to be able to get out, do something, have some sort of rtecreation, entertainment, etc. Sitting alone in a dark house when you are not at work is not living, it is existing. Every calculation of what constitutes a living wage recognizes that there has to be a line item for some form of recreation, entertainment,, etc.

Yes I know that but are you really going to try to tell me that being saddled with $8,000 in credit card debt on a $3,000/month net income is "okay"!??

Quoted: of all - my point is only that people CAN build up a 6-month savings if they live within their means. The fact that most people DON'T live within their means doesn't disprove my point. It only illustrates that the immediate-gratification mentality of so many Americans is why there is such a universal acceptance of Federal Welfare programs - too many Americans can't even CONCEIVE of being responible for themselves as proven by their enormous debt and lack of savings. Six months of salary requires a huge amount of discretionary income.

Actually it just requires more self-control, personal responsibility and short-term sacrifice than discretionary income.

Quoted: This is particularly true as American wages have stagnated and expenses continue to skyrocket.

Avg Weekly Earnings (Private Sector) at the end of 1995 was about $496 (in CPI-adjusted 2005 dollars)
Avg Weekly Earnings (Private Sector) at the end of 2000 was about $530 (in CPI-adjusted 2005 dollars)
Avg Weekly Earnings (Private Sector) at the end of 2005 was about $550 (CPI-adjusted 2005 dollars)

I don't have 6 months of income saved up.  HOWEVER.  I just bought a home in August, I've been puting close to 40% of my take home toward principal-only payments on my new home (on top of the regular mortgage payments).

At this time, I have about a year's worth of salary in equity in my home (down payment, +mortgage payments +principle-only payments).  It's not money I can immediately get to.  But it is money I'm saving.

I do not have cable, a cell phone, an x-box, I don't smoke, I have a dinosaur-speed dial-up connection, I go out drinking once a week with friends in a place that serves free food for happy hour, I own about 15 dvd's, only 3 of them being from the last 5 years, My music collection is non-existant unless you count free downloads, cassette tapes or (gulp) vinyl.  

True, we all have our weaknesses.  I paint.  But I stretch and prime my own canvasses and I buy my paint from the home depot "oops" rack at $5 a gallon instead of paying $20 for a 4 oz. tube at the art store.

I also love to sew and go a little nuts buying fabric, but that is me.  When you figure that $20 will buy enough for a snazzy evening gown, it ain't that bad of a habit.

I'm a young, single woman who just finished putting myself through grad school.  I shouldn't have been able to buy a house, but I did.  I'm a teacher making piddley wages and I shouldn't have been able to make huge principle-only payments on my house, but I did.

Little decisions make all the difference.  Yes people look at me like I have three heads when I tell them I don't have a tv.  They ask me, "What do you DO at night?"  I ask them to think about all the things they COULD be doing if they WEREN'T wasting their time watching tv.  "I do those things".

The US has grown incredibley irresponsible.  Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't make it right or justifiable.

It just makes it sad.

I have priorities.  I have goals.  I am working toward them like any responsible human being does.

Just my $.02
Now I'll get off my  



end rant

Quoted: I'm a young, single woman who just finished putting myself through grad school.

Bump for latest report on American's Savings:

Savings Rate Lowest Since Great Depression Americans are spending everything they're making and more, pushing the national savings rate to the lowest point since the Great Depression. Soaring home prices apparently have convinced people they don't have to worry about saving, a belief that could be seriously tested as 78 million baby boomers begin to retire. The Commerce Department reported Monday that Americans' personal savings fell into negative territory at minus 0.5 percent last year. That means that people not only spent all of their after-tax income last year but had to dip into previous savings or increase their borrowing. The savings rate has been negative for an entire year only twice before _ in 1932 and 1933 _ two years when Americans were having to deplete savings to cope with the massive job layoffs and business failures caused by the Great Depression. This time the reasons for the negative savings rate are vastly different. Americans are spending all their incomes and then some because they feel wealthier because of soaring value of their homes, which for many Americans is the largest investment they own. But analysts cautioned that this behavior was risky at a time when 78 million Americans are on the verge of retirement. The baby boomers start turning 60 this year, which means they can begin retiring with Social Security in just two more years. Analysts said with this huge wave of pending retirements, the savings rate should be going up rather than being on a steady decline over the past two decades. The savings rate stood at 10.8 percent of after-tax incomes in 1984 and has been declining steadily since that time. It was down to 1.8 percent in 2004 before turning negative last year. "Americans seem to have the feeling that it is wimpish to save," said David Wyss, chief economist at Standard & Poor's in New York. "The idea is to put away money for old age and we are just not doing that." Analysts said that not only rising home prices but a rebound in stock prices following the 2000 market collapse have many Americans feeling more wealthy, and that wealth effect is a major pillar supporting consumer spending. "Americans have been content to spend a lot more than is good for them or for the economy," said Lyle Gramley, senior economic adviser at Schwab Washington Research Group. After setting records for five straight years, sales of both existing and new homes are expected to decline this year under the impact of rising mortgage rates. The weaker sales will translate into slower price appreciation which in turn will slow consumer spending, analysts are forecasting. That slowdown in spending should help the savings rate rise back into positive territory. But analysts are not expecting sizable improvements in savings, because as baby boomers begin to retire they will start tapping into their savings to pay for medical bills and other consumption. The expected slowdown in consumer spending is one reason many economists are looking for overall economic growth to slow further this year. The gross domestic product grew 3.5 percent last year, down from a five-year high of 4.2 percent in 2004. The Federal Reserve, trying to engineer a slowdown in growth that will keep inflation under control, is expected to boost rates for a 14th time at its Tuesday meeting. A price gauge closely watched by the Fed that excludes food and energy rose by a tiny 0.1 percent in December, down from a 0.2 percent rise in November, the Commerce Department reported Monday. For December, consumer spending rose by a bigger-than-expected 0.9 percent while incomes were up by just 0.4 percent. That forced the savings rate down for the month to a negative 0.7 percent.

And for those who think saving six months of income is too unrealistic or too hard - here's what financial experts recommend - again remember these percentages are based on your GROSS income (before taxes):


Source.

So according to this budget, if you save 15% of your gross income each month then in just 24 months you will have exactly six months of expenses "in the bank". And if some unforseen expenses set you back a few months, so what - so make it 30 months so that still in 2&half years you'll have a 6-month expense cushion built up.

That is HARDLY an unrealistic goal... for those willing to live within one's means for a couple years. Then again, if you can't do this - you're living beyond your means and wasting too much money.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm a young, single woman who just finished putting myself through grad school who has a big, strong boyfriend, phil_in_seattle, who is well known for his unmatched stockpiles of ammunition and his jealous streak.

FIXED

All the good ones are taken.

Quoted: I don't have 6 months of income saved up.  HOWEVER.  I just bought a home in August, I've been puting close to 40% of my take home toward principal-only payments on my new home (on top of the regular mortgage payments).

40% of your net-income towards a mortgage (plus another one???) is WAY too much.

You're living in a house you can't afford.

Rant all you want, but that's the truth.

Quoted: Quoted: I don't have 6 months of income saved up.  HOWEVER.  I just bought a home in August, I've been puting close to 40% of my take home toward principal-only payments on my new home (on top of the regular mortgage payments). That's WAY too much. You're living in a house you can't afford. Rant all you want, but that's the truth.

Did you read that that 40% is ON TOP OF the regular payments? She's paying off her house early.

Quoted: Did you read that that 40% is ON TOP OF the regular payments?

Yeah - I just caught that.

Dayum.

Quoted: Quoted: I don't have 6 months of income saved up.  HOWEVER.  I just bought a home in August, I've been puting close to 40% of my take home toward principal-only payments on my new home (on top of the regular mortgage payments). 40% of your net-income towards a mortgage (plus another one???) is WAY too much. You're living in a house you can't afford.

She said he says the reg mortgage  + extra back to the base loan....?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't have 6 months of income saved up.  HOWEVER.  I just bought a home in August, I've been puting close to 40% of my take home toward principal-only payments on my new home (on top of the regular mortgage payments). That's WAY too much. You're living in a house you can't afford. Rant all you want, but that's the truth. Did you read that that 40% is ON TOP OF the regular payments? She's paying off her house early.

Yeah, you didn't read.  My regular mortgage is... let me see...  a little under 20% of my take home pay.  I'm not sure what the percentage is of my net

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't have 6 months of income saved up.  HOWEVER.  I just bought a home in August, I've been puting close to 40% of my take home toward principal-only payments on my new home (on top of the regular mortgage payments). 40% of your net-income towards a mortgage (plus another one???) is WAY too much. You're living in a house you can't afford. She said he says the reg mortgage  + extra back to the base loan....?

By the way it was worded I couldn't tell if it was a second mortgage or not.

ETA: Okay, I read it as a principal-only loan on top of the regular loan. I see now.

Okay, there are valid opinions on paying off your home loan early (depending on the rate, etc.). Some people say pay off the mortgage as fast as you can. Others insist that that same money can be invested at a higher return than the savings on interest you'd get by lowering your principal. Don't forget that mortgage interest is deductable so that adds about 20% to the cost of paying off your principal earlier than keeping that extra money and investing it. Like I said, there's pros and cons to both.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't have 6 months of income saved up.  HOWEVER.  I just bought a home in August, I've been puting close to 40% of my take home toward principal-only payments on my new home (on top of the regular mortgage payments). 40% of your net-income towards a mortgage (plus another one???) is WAY too much. You're living in a house you can't afford. She said he says the reg mortgage  + extra back to the base loan....? By the way it was worded I couldn't tell if it was a second mortgage or not.

Mac, Even if the mortgage WAS 40% of my paycheck.  I wouldn't be living "beyond my means".  It's not THAT far from the 30% recommended.  I would just have to make cuts in other areas.  It's all about priorities.  I happen to think that real estate is an investment that will pay off.  I could be wrong, but if you look back to when the first started keeping stats on home prices... they go up by an average of 10% every year.  Not a bad investment for 40% of my income.

wow, this thread has really been hijacked.  I should change the title to "investments in your future"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't have 6 months of income saved up.  HOWEVER.  I just bought a home in August, I've been puting close to 40% of my take home toward principal-only payments on my new home (on top of the regular mortgage payments). 40% of your net-income towards a mortgage (plus another one???) is WAY too much. You're living in a house you can't afford. She said he says the reg mortgage  + extra back to the base loan....? By the way it was worded I couldn't tell if it was a second mortgage or not. Mac, Even if the mortgage WAS 40% of my paycheck.  I wouldn't be living "beyond my means".  It's not THAT far from the 30% recommended.

As I said, I first thought that 40% was for a second mortgage.

Quoted: I happen to think that real estate is an investment that will pay off.  I could be wrong, but if you look back to when the first started keeping stats on home prices... they go up by an average of 10% every year.  Not a bad investment for 40% of my income.

Yeah, real-estate is a decent investment as part of a well-diversified portfolio.

But whether that 40% is better put into your mortgage or another investment is debateble.