Quoted: Steyr - that is natural selection.  Evolution would be Neanderthals turning into Cro-Magnon. I am not necessarily a proponent of ID, but there is no scientific proof of one species evolving into another, or even significant changes within a species.  No fossil record of elephants with short trunks growing longer over generations or giraffes with 2 feet long necks getting longer. Natural selection can be proven.  It is going on even today as some species become extinct when others take over i.e. Brown Tree Snakes wiping out bird species in Guam.   One species evolving into another is still a theory.  Once there is evidence that proves it, evolution would become a law.

Correct. And I was addressing the point of natural selection.

As for Evolution, I addressed that with the fact that there were TWO distinct species of man. Obviously way more than 2, but two is sufficient.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: the joke is that evolution is not science either...it can't be tested, it can't be proven, it can't be observed... wrong correct, no scientific theory is ever proven.  They are just the best possible explanation for what we see in nature wrong Your post is misleading.  When a theory is proven it becomes law (see "Law of Gravity").  A theory is an idea that may or may not be true, but has not been proven or disproven.

Yet you leave out part of the equation also. A Theory is not just and idea somebody has that is yet to be proven or disproven, in the scientific community it is the one explanation that has the obserevd and experimental evidence supporting it that becomes the one accepted Theory and the only one to have the title of Theory.

In the everday world your definition is true of theory, but for the scientific definition you left a good deal out. There is no theory of ID because there is no evidince to support ID. ID is an idea with as much legitimacy as me saying that all creation sprung from the giant explosion when Gods Glock KB'd.

Quoted: <snip> Steyr - that is natural selection.  Evolution would be Neanderthals turning into Cro-Magnon. I am not necessarily a proponent of ID, but there is no scientific proof of one species evolving into another, or even significant changes within a species.  No fossil record of elephants with short trunks growing longer over generations or giraffes with 2 feet long necks getting longer. <snip>.

The thing of it is, is that you don't need to be.  The "arguers" (I won't denigrate the word "debaters" by applying it to the entire group) in these incessant evolution vs. creation/ID/non-evol arguments *always* conveniently "forget" things.  It's the nature of the beast for "arguers," to "forget" anything that doesn't further your position.

For example, the evol folks always seem to conveniently "forget" that no replacement for evolution is needed when calling the validity of today's evolution into question.  That, also, is not the way science (or Science) works.  Sure, it's *nice* to have an answer when someone asks: "Well, if not this, then what?"  But it's not required.

As another example, one thing the creation/ID/non-evol folks always seem to conveniently forget is the difference between a theory and a Theory (common parlance vs. scientific usage).

What the fuck ever; let's just all go get smashed and drive real fast.

Quoted: Quoted: brassburn got it. It isnt science and never was and shouldnt be tought as science or in a science class. But it should be tought, somehow.... It belongs in a Communications Department course on propaganda.

No..... Thats what religion and philosophy classes are for. Just because you dont agree with a theory or belief doesnt mean you have to act so hostile about it. Ive studied both the big bang and evolutionary theories in great detail. I went into them with an open mind, I still dont believe any of it but I also think that every theory should be tought and that the students should decide for themselves. Everything should be on an even playing field.

After all we are teaching kids to think for themselves. Not indoctrinating them.

I have just one more post for this and before I contine with it Id just like to state plainly that I am dead serious with this. This isnt an emotional post from someone out of answers or just a jab at the 'evolutionists' at all. This is a completely honest no BS question and I expect the same in an answer.


I have studied evolution quite a bit and have yet to find the answer to my question so maybe someone here can conjure somthing up that I cannot.

I do not believe that human kind has reached its pinnacle. I believe that we need tougher skin, something in the form of some armor, the ability to breahth under water for indefinate periods & last but not least I think human kind should be able to fly without machinery or gliders or balloons of any kind. Inotherwords we need wings.

I know that the evolutionary process takes thousands if not millions of years but my question is, where do I start? How can I start the process of giving my offspring wings, gills and scales? Do I mate with various animals or run around flapping my arms all day or what? What do we do to evolve into another species?

According to the evolutionary theory our 'ancestors' were able to do it time after time without universities or scholars to tell them how and without controlled enviroments like science labs. So what would it take for the entirety of human kind to gain gills, wings and scales?

any theories? thoughts? anyone?

Quoted: I have just one more post for this and before I contine with it Id just like to state plainly that I am dead serious with this. This isnt an emotional post from someone out of answers or just a jab at the 'evolutionists' at all. This is a completely honest no BS question and I expect the same in an answer. I have studied evolution quite a bit and have yet to find the answer to my question so maybe someone here can conjure somthing up that I cannot. I do not believe that human kind has reached its pinnacle. I believe that we need tougher skin, something in the form of some armor, the ability to breahth under water for indefinate periods & last but not least I think human kind should be able to fly without machinery or gliders or balloons of any kind. Inotherwords we need wings. I know that the evolutionary process takes thousands if not millions of years but my question is, where do I start? How can I start the process of giving my offspring wings, gills and scales? Do I mate with various animals or run around flapping my arms all day or what? What do we do to evolve into another species? According to the evolutionary theory our 'ancestors' were able to do it time after time without universities or scholars to tell them how and without controlled enviroments like science labs. So what would it take for the entirety of human kind to gain gills, wings and scales? any theories? thoughts? anyone?

In short you can't.

That isn't how evolution works. Again it is not an orderly and deliberate process designed to improve life. Nature doesn't work that way.

Evolutions are simply the process of continued, successful mutations.

Mutations occur in all species and are random, common and a part of nature. Whenever these "quirks" prove beneficial (and quite often they are not) those traits are continued in the geneology of that species.

Additionally, the capacity for a mutation HAS to pre exist in the genetic code of that species. This is why humans will NEVER produce a flying mutation with wings. However, and it is extremely remote, it would be possible to produce one with gills as we had that capacity in our distant genetic past (prior to becoming mammals). But I must stress how absolutely remote this is.

And finally, we as humans have arrested the process of natural selection to a great extent by becoming masters of our environment.

In short if their were a global flood and we lost control of our environment THEN a "gill man" mutant offspring could "possibly" pass on those genetics and start a more successful species line. But as the world is today the same "gill man" would be lucky to get work at a side show and would be hard pressed to find a person who wanted to mate and perpetuate the new trait.

To answer your other questions, you will find humans are incapatable to breed with most other species. No "donkey kids" for you. But a human with a mutation that successfully breeds that trait can over the course of time contribute to a new evolution of man that is distinct enough to become a new species.

Evolution and natural selection are in the simplest terms successful mutations that become established over time.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: the joke is that evolution is not science either...it can't be tested, it can't be proven, it can't be observed... wrong correct, no scientific theory is ever proven.  They are just the best possible explanation for what we see in nature wrong Your post is misleading.  When a theory is proven it becomes law (see "Law of Gravity").  A theory is an idea that may or may not be true, but has not been proven or disproven. Yet you leave out part of the equation also. A Theory is not just and idea somebody has that is yet to be proven or disproven, in the scientific community it is the one explanation that has the obserevd and experimental evidence supporting it that becomes the one accepted Theory and the only one to have the title of Theory. In the everday world your definition is true of theory, but for the scientific definition you left a good deal out. There is no theory of ID because there is no evidince to support ID. ID is an idea with as much legitimacy as me saying that all creation sprung from the giant explosion when Gods Glock KB'd.

No argument.  To prove ID one would either have to "prove" the existence of a desginer or prove a negative - that no other means could have caused life to exist in its present forms.  Pretty much an impossible task.

Where I have a problem is when the media presents evolution as if it is a law and not a theory.  If it were presented as a theory in which the overwhelming majority of scientists believe/accept, but one that remains unproven, I would be satisfied.

The thing is, a "law" in science is not absolute.  It is just a very succesful theory.  This is an extremily misunderstood concept.  

For instance, Gravity is only a theory.  Yup, its been around several hundred years, and it seems absolutely obvious.  We can use Newton's theory (often called "Law" because it is well-established) of gravity to explain the trajectory of a rifle bullet, the dropping of an apple, the motion of the planets and fly a spaceship to the moon.  The only problem is, IT IS WRONG.  

Actually, the "Law of Gravity" they teach in high school is only a special case.  It works just fine on medium to large size scales ( larger than molecular dimensions) and slow (relative to light) speeds.  Einstein's Theory of Retivity tweaked the THEORY of gravity in the early part of the century, and now the theory encompasses pretty much everything except extremily small scales.  In fact, the major problem in physics these days is marrying the theories of Quantum Mechanics (behavior of really small stuff) and General Relativity (behavior of really big stuff).  Note that Evolution has also been tweaked similarly, and ID proponents generally use this as "evidence" that the theory is flawed or wrong.

Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity are THEORIES that  allow the most accurate predictions about the natural world in the history of Mankind.  Yet, neither of these theories is "proven" because it is absolutley impossible to prove something; it is only possible to disprove it.  This is a fact that is central to science.  The problem arrises in that the general public doesn't understand this and assumes if a scientist says it, its a fact.   Then again, this isn't all that surprising given the declining quality of our schools.  

So, when people say we should teach Intelligent Design along side Evolution because Evolution is only a theory (ID isn't, as someone else pointed out), I'm all for it.  I'd also like to start teaching some other intelligent design-based science classes.   For instance the Maxwell's laws (again, only a theory!) are over a hundred years old and basically gave humans the ability to control electricity.  However, because these "laws" are really only theories, I think we should also theach the theory that electrons acting under a potential field are not what makes electricity work, its actually angels dancing through those copper wires.  Sure, its not testable, it has no evidence to support it, but I can think of it and thats all that is necesary to put it on equal footing with the mere theory of electricity.

I mean, come on, what could be the possible consequences of tossing half a millenium of scientific progress out the window on a whim?  Its not like this country has exported all its manufacturing capability and is now dependant on an information/technology based economy.  I'm pretty sure torpedoing the education of the already-entitled-and-not-too-bright latest generation bodes very well for the future of our country.  I'm certain that if enough priests get together, they can pray for the "intelligent Designer" to extend the internet for us, build faith-based computers and intelligently design the next genereation of antibiotics to combat those pesky resistant strains of bacteria which oddly enough only appeared after we started using antibiotics on them.


Seriously though, I'm not trying to offend any religeous folks out there.  I'm just trying to point out that religeon has had a long history of going against the the grain on scientific matters, and it doesn't have a very good record of winning.  Leave science to the scientists, thology to the theologians and please, please don't mess up the schools any more than they already are.  

Quoted: I have just one more post for this and before I contine with it Id just like to state plainly that I am dead serious with this. This isnt an emotional post from someone out of answers or just a jab at the 'evolutionists' at all. This is a completely honest no BS question and I expect the same in an answer. I have studied evolution quite a bit and have yet to find the answer to my question so maybe someone here can conjure somthing up that I cannot. I do not believe that human kind has reached its pinnacle. I believe that we need tougher skin, something in the form of some armor, the ability to breahth under water for indefinate periods & last but not least I think human kind should be able to fly without machinery or gliders or balloons of any kind. Inotherwords we need wings. I know that the evolutionary process takes thousands if not millions of years but my question is, where do I start? How can I start the process of giving my offspring wings, gills and scales? Do I mate with various animals or run around flapping my arms all day or what? What do we do to evolve into another species? According to the evolutionary theory our 'ancestors' were able to do it time after time without universities or scholars to tell them how and without controlled enviroments like science labs. So what would it take for the entirety of human kind to gain gills, wings and scales? any theories? thoughts? anyone?

why do you need these things?

Quoted: Quoted: I have just one more post for this and before I contine with it Id just like to state plainly that I am dead serious with this. This isnt an emotional post from someone out of answers or just a jab at the 'evolutionists' at all. This is a completely honest no BS question and I expect the same in an answer. I have studied evolution quite a bit and have yet to find the answer to my question so maybe someone here can conjure somthing up that I cannot. I do not believe that human kind has reached its pinnacle. I believe that we need tougher skin, something in the form of some armor, the ability to breahth under water for indefinate periods & last but not least I think human kind should be able to fly without machinery or gliders or balloons of any kind. Inotherwords we need wings. I know that the evolutionary process takes thousands if not millions of years but my question is, where do I start? How can I start the process of giving my offspring wings, gills and scales? Do I mate with various animals or run around flapping my arms all day or what? What do we do to evolve into another species? According to the evolutionary theory our 'ancestors' were able to do it time after time without universities or scholars to tell them how and without controlled enviroments like science labs. So what would it take for the entirety of human kind to gain gills, wings and scales? any theories? thoughts? anyone? why do you need these things?

The same reason I need 1 million guns and enough ammo to fill up the atlantic ocean.

to quote some guy in Newsweeek magazine, "Intelligent Design is creationism in a cheap tux."

Quoted: Oh . . . well I guess that settles it then . . .

evolution and the big bang theory is just one series of excuses, probablies and maybe's after another. The theory originates in the idea that the lifeless plantet earth smashed into another plant (forgot the name can someone fill this in?) and the 2 planets became 1. That other planet had had life in very basic forms on it, like bacteria. For millions of years earth was a volcanic ball with nothing resembling its present day landscape. One day out of the blue everything starts changing and the earth starts becoming what it is now: grass, dirt, trees, plants etc. One day in a pool of water two cells just happen to mix to form something else. this continues until these two cells form something else and something esle and billions of years later we have more species of animals and plants than can be counted and of course humans.

where did the life on that other planet come from? where did these planets come from to begin with? where did the water in that pool come from? Human beings have never created anything in their entire history. To create means to make something from nothing. We can make food from ingrediants and build buildings with materials but we cannot create anything and never will. Evolution can never tell us where we came from. Its always excuse after excuse after excuse without any clue whatsoever how all these planets, stars etc got here in the first place. Where all of the cells that evolved into the life in the world today came from  to begin with. So many times throughout history when a backwards civilization came upon a technologically superior civilization they mistook them for gods. How could mere men wear a metal skin? deal death from a booming tube? ride four legged beasts? sail the waters of the world in huge ships or build them in the first place? I could go on and on about this. It is not hard in the least to believe that the universe was created by a superior being.

At the very least big bang & evolution is best described as the ultimate Rube Goldberg. Just a series of crazy off the wall things that just happend to happen in just such a sequence as to make all life and scientific laws in existance. Except this rube goldberg has no beginning. its page after page after page of rediculous speculation.

Big bang& evolution is the conjured story of those who refuse to believe in God. Like the europeans who wanted their own measuring system, people who do not believe in God wanted their own system. They obviously didnt put very much thought into it. But if they can make people believe something as pitiful as that, its really scary to think how many people they will fool when they actually put their minds to this and come up with a 'definate answer.'


Rube Goldberg and Charles darwin would have been great friends.

Quoted: evolution and the big bang theory is just one series of excuses, probablies and maybe's after another. The theory originates in the idea that the lifeless plantet earth smashed into another plant (forgot the name can someone fill this in?) and the 2 planets became 1. That other planet had had life in very basic forms on it, like bacteria. For millions of years earth was a volcanic ball with nothing resembling its present day landscape. One day out of the blue everything starts changing and the earth starts becoming what it is now: grass, dirt, trees, plants etc. One day in a pool of water two cells just happen to mix to form something else. this continues until these two cells form something else and something esle and billions of years later we have more species of animals and plants than can be counted and of course humans. where did the life on that other planet come from? where did these planets come from to begin with? where did the water in that pool come from? Human beings have never created anything in their entire history. To create means to make something from nothing. We can make food from ingrediants and build buildings with materials but we cannot create anything and never will. Evolution can never tell us where we came from. Its always excuse after excuse after excuse without any clue whatsoever how all these planets, stars etc got here in the first place. Where all of the cells that evolved into the life in the world today came from  to begin with. So many times throughout history when a backwards civilization came upon a technologically superior civilization they mistook them for gods. How could mere men wear a metal skin? deal death from a booming tube? ride four legged beasts? sail the waters of the world in huge ships or build them in the first place? I could go on and on about this. It is not hard in the least to believe that the universe was created by a superior being. At the very least big bang & evolution is best described as the ultimate Rube Goldberg. Just a series of crazy off the wall things that just happend to happen in just such a sequence as to make all life and scientific laws in existance. Except this rube goldberg has no beginning. its page after page after page of rediculous speculation. Big bang& evolution is the conjured story of those who refuse to believe in God. Like the europeans who wanted their own measuring system, people who do not believe in God wanted their own system. They obviously didnt put very much thought into it. But if they can make people believe something as pitiful as that, its really scary to think how many people they will fool when they actually put their minds to this and come up with a 'definate answer.' Rube Goldberg and Charles darwin would have been great friends.

you make my head hurt.