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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:34:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because JHP ammo, when it expands, often under penetrates in marginal calibers like .380 and .38Spc Grab a load manual from the 70s and see what standard pressure 38 loads look like some time. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:37:26 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Dad is old school and we had this debate over the weekend. What is the hive's opinion? If you end up unharmed after the first few shots and the BG has taken cover, a nice full waddcutter will bite real good on a partially exposed head. Better than a jacketed bullet for sure. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:40:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
How is a .357 bullet weighing 158gr going 900fps considered marginal but a .355 bullet weighing 147gr going 950fps is not? 
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:52:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back in the old days we hot loaded hollow base wadcutters backward as personal defense ammo. That was what I did until serrated-edge jacketed hollowpoints became readily available. I put many of those backwards wadcutter loads through my Model 29 back in the day.  Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:56:14 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hollow base wadcutters loaded backwards.  |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:58:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The OP didn't say anything about a 2" barrel or heavy clothing. Why would you carry wadcutters when you could carry something that will perform far better under a lot of circumstances? I don't see the point of saying that you might face a situation where the JHP doesn't have a significant advantage. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 5:59:12 PM EDT
[#7]
nvm
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:04:09 PM EDT
[#8]
I am one of Mas Ayoob's senior instructors and Mas recommends wadcutters for snubbies. Yhey are also a good general defense round for all 38 Specials. They cut a nice hole in a cadaver and expand quite evenly . They tend to stay inside a body also. Go to Evan Marshalls site and you should be able to get to an old evaluation of these loads.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:05:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Read the thread title .... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The OP didn't say anything about a 2" barrel or heavy clothing. Why would you carry wadcutters when you could carry something that will perform far better under a lot of circumstances? I don't see the point of saying that you might face a situation where the JHP doesn't have a significant advantage. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:18:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Wife has 148 grain wadcutter in a 642.
Do they bounce off or something. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:20:59 PM EDT
[#11]
I have some 148 LWC loaded normal for my LCR, but use the 125 Speer +P JHP for carry
I have 185 LWC for the 2.5" Bulldog, but use the 200 gr Silvertip for carry THe LWC's work well in both though and I wouldn't lose any sleep using them for SD |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:38:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Feel free to go back to talking about the eclipse, Taylor Swift and trannies, leave the gun talk to the big kids. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 6:40:19 PM EDT
[#13]
better than RNL
I prefer Gold Dots, Golden sabers, or winchester defenders in my snubbie  Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 7:12:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am one of Mas Ayoob's senior instructors and Mas recommends wadcutters for snubbies. Yhey are also a good general defense round for all 38 Specials. They cut a nice hole in a cadaver and expand quite evenly . They tend to stay inside a body also. Go to Evan Marshalls site and you should be able to get to an old evaluation of these loads. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 7:16:43 PM EDT
[#15]
158 hardcast Keith at 1250fps
Or 150 hardcast wad cutter at 850fps If I was stuck with a snubbie I'd use the bottom. A good model 10 or 15 I'd prefer the top one. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 7:25:55 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 8/21/2017 7:58:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Underwood 150 gr. LWC is not a bad choice
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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:19:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Load them hot and backwards.
I wouldn't want to get shot by one. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:29:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Dead soft 158g hollow points.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:46:49 PM EDT
[#20]
In a snubbie, I like the Golden Saber better than the old SWC HP 158
 .38 Special +P Remington Golden Saber Ammo Gel Test  Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 gr Semiwadcutter Ammo Test |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:07:41 PM EDT
[#21]
If it was still 1960.
Joking aside, a Flat point does much better for tissue disruption than a round nose or SWC, Compared to some of to some of the older and some of the newer, especially Com-block and European HP's I would still take the Wad Cutter. In comparison to a modern top tier JHP, No. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:22:27 PM EDT
[#22]
When I load 38 I will always make sure I load a few hundred wad cutters before I switch to the next caliber.
I've found them to be a nice and easy to shoot all day long, and it's fun to see the clean holes on paper. When I've loaded them backwards I make sure I add a gas check. Have some that I've loaded in the past that I wouldn't feel unsafe using in some speed strips and if I'm carrying that gun I'll load them up. My go too was gold dots and then the short barrel gold dots but I've heard or read (with picture evidence) that there isn't enough speed to get them fully opened sometimes. Never had that issue with the wad cutters and I've shot a ton of both at milk jugs, need to dig out the jar I have of both that were recovered, not all the gold dots expanded |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 12:04:36 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dead soft 158g hollow points. One of my old Handloading books showed a guy loading three 50gr WCs into a 38 Spl case for a self defense load. Those WCs looked like super short Double Ended WCs with a single lube groove. They were little "flying saucers". |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 12:12:29 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't need the "hive's opinion". 
Doc GKR explains it well in the Arfcom FAQs about Best Ammo. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#mozTocId147912 Basically, full wadcutters do about as well as JHPs out of a snub nosed revolver against the 4 layer denim test. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/38_Sp_BUG_load_sample.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Dad is old school and we had this debate over the weekend. What is the hive's opinion? You don't need the "hive's opinion".
Doc GKR explains it well in the Arfcom FAQs about Best Ammo. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#mozTocId147912 Basically, full wadcutters do about as well as JHPs out of a snub nosed revolver against the 4 layer denim test. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/38_Sp_BUG_load_sample.jpg I carry 148 grain full wadcutters in my 642 because its fine as long as I do my part, theres basically no recoil, and it shoots right to the sights, and it will get plenty of penetration even with the low velocity. I've been assured by GD in several other threads, that if I don't have the latest and greatest in +P technology I'll get "Killt in the Skreets". |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 12:23:41 AM EDT
[#25]
My 642 has been loaded with them for years.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 12:43:40 AM EDT
[#26]
You see the term wadcutter and think of a bullet that cuts paper only. A lead bullet will do what lead does upon impact with something other than paper. It deforms, expands, and does what a bullet does. There are all sorts of tricks ammo makers have come up with to get expansion from short barrels, be it a ballistic tip, soft poly ball under the jacket nose, or any other device to get the bullet to expand reliably. Lead has no problem deforming when it hit a target.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 1:22:04 AM EDT
[#27]
New Federal HST's in 38 special. Should shut this thread down.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 7:53:17 AM EDT
[#28]
I just picked up a 75 gr wadcutter mold off the EE here. Spent a few hours casting/powdercoating 500 of them last night to experiment. Going to double the projectile and load as a 148 wadcutter.
Just something to mess around with. Lyman-Ideal 358101 4 cavity. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:11:31 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote History |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:22:36 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back in the old days we hot loaded hollow base wadcutters backward as personal defense ammo. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:22:47 AM EDT
[#31]
Penetration is still more important.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:29:48 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you end up unharmed after the first few shots and the BG has taken cover, a nice full waddcutter will bite real good on a partially exposed head. Better than a jacketed bullet for sure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Dad is old school and we had this debate over the weekend. What is the hive's opinion? If you end up unharmed after the first few shots and the BG has taken cover, a nice full waddcutter will bite real good on a partially exposed head. Better than a jacketed bullet for sure. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:32:00 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wife has 148 grain wadcutter in a 642. Do they bounce off or something. In short, they aren't useless, but there's far better choices out there---especially if you are going to download them for reduced recoil/ease of shooting. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:19:09 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:39:44 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
New Federal HST's in 38 special. Should shut this thread down. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/FP_PPD_38SPL_HST_Micro_R_130gr_lg.jpg |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:48:41 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Dad is old school and we had this debate over the weekend. What is the hive's opinion? The shoulders of the wadcutter rounds cut tissue nicely. Better, in fact, than many poorly performing HP rounds. Some of the best snub experts I know carry .38 target wadcutters in their revolvers because the recoil is manageable, the loads are well regulated for the sights, and they do a pretty good job through anything but heavy clothing. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:39:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The shoulders of the wadcutter rounds cut tissue nicely. Better, in fact, than many poorly performing HP rounds. Some of the best snub experts I know carry .38 target wadcutters in their revolvers because the recoil is manageable, the loads are well regulated for the sights, and they do a pretty good job through anything but heavy clothing. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:26:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not necessarily. My friend Gus got a solid head hit with a .38 wadcutter after being hit himself. Didn't penetrate the skull---the guy drove to Mississippi and walked in to an ER telling a fairy tale about being robbed. Fortunately, the MHP trooper who was first to respond had gotten the BOLO on the description of the guy who had shot one of our officers, and he was caught. ETA: spelling
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:29:59 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Dad is old school and we had this debate over the weekend. What is the hive's opinion? 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:31:05 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That doesn't necessarily mean it didn't work better than a jacketed bullet but I see your point. BTW, can you confirm it was FWC and now SWC or other waddcutter configuration? We need to look at it over a much larger population and compare jacketed to FWC. I'm pretty sure the concept has been thoroughly vetted. Let google be your friend. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not necessarily. My friend Gus got a solid head hit with a .38 wadcutter after being hit himself. Didn't penetrate the skull---the guy drove to Mississippi and walked in to an ER telling a fairy tale about being robbed. Fortunately, the MHP trooper who was first to respond had gotten the BOLO on the description of the guy who had shot one of our officers, and he was caught. It went in, and followed his skull around, under his scalp, popping out on the side. ETA: What does that mean? Bullets do funny things when they impact people... sometimes a bullet performs brilliantly, sometimes it doesn't. Thats why shot placement, and recoil control is so important. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:36:14 PM EDT
[#41]
My choice, in nearly all revolvers, is heavy Keith bullets.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:38:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A Deputy who works at my local Sheriff's Office got shot in the head with a 145 grain Winchester Silvertip, .357 Magnum. It didn't penetrate either, luckily. It went in, and followed his skull around, under his scalp, popping out on the side. ETA: What does that mean? Bullets do funny things when they impact people... sometimes a bullet performs brilliantly, sometimes it doesn't. Thats why shot placement, and recoil control is so important. |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 12:03:49 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back in the old days we hot loaded hollow base wadcutters backward as personal defense ammo. Ammunition has come a long way since the 70's. Buy some premium self defense ammo. |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 7:40:35 AM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 8/23/2017 9:08:20 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That doesn't necessarily mean it didn't work better than a jacketed bullet but I see your point. BTW, can you confirm it was FWC and not SWC or other waddcutter configuration? We need to look at it over a much larger population and compare jacketed to FWC. I'm pretty sure the concept has been thoroughly vetted. Let google be your friend. ETA: spelling Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not necessarily. My friend Gus got a solid head hit with a .38 wadcutter after being hit himself. Didn't penetrate the skull---the guy drove to Mississippi and walked in to an ER telling a fairy tale about being robbed. Fortunately, the MHP trooper who was first to respond had gotten the BOLO on the description of the guy who had shot one of our officers, and he was caught. ETA: spelling |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 1:37:47 PM EDT
[#46]
Awesome replies, thank you everyone!
Dad pretty much always has two guns on him. His snubby on his ankle and a 1911 of some sort elsewhere. |
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