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Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:17:06 AM EDT
[#1]
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Dealing with some former Soviet people is A)  a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


I don't think many here consider race a key cultural variable.



You must have missed a lot of threads.  For some people, its their flippant answer and explanation for nearly everything.  GD has taught me about books and below the radar academic I had never heard of, arguing this very point.


Which books?


Rushton's "Race, Evolution and Behavior," for the most part.  It is often touted as the counterargument to Diamond's "Guns Germs, and Steel" - and the parallel structure of the title is probably no coincidence.  Bell Curve to a lesser extent, due to the chapter we have already beat to death.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:17:06 AM EDT
[#2]
Lazy socialists mostly.  

Back around 1998, we hired a woman who had emigrated  from Russia a year earlier on the lottery system. She had some interesting things to say.  She had been leaned on pretty hard to marry some slag so he could ride her into the USA - she refused.

One night after work, we were discussing the shock our retail world was to her.   She said that the shock of seeing all of the "stuff" for sale wore off quickly, and reinforced her belief that the commie govt was lying every time their mouths moved.   But what she said next was surprising.
   "I came to realize that the reason Americans HAVE all this stuff, is that they WORK for it.  My first job here was hard. I had to work 50 hours a week, on time every day.  I was a model worker in Russia.  I never worked that hard, or cared about the outcome.   But when the first paycheck was more than several months wages, I understood"  

She was the outlier. She knew it.  Smart girl.  

.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:34:05 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Quoted:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A)  a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


I don't think many here consider race a key cultural variable.



You must have missed a lot of threads.  For some people, its their flippant answer and explanation for nearly everything.  GD has taught me about books and below the radar academic I had never heard of, arguing this very point.


Which books?


Rushton's "Race, Evolution and Behavior," for the most part.  It is often touted as the counterargument to Diamond's "Guns Germs, and Steel" - and the parallel structure of the title is probably no coincidence.  Bell Curve to a lesser extent, due to the chapter we have already beat to death.


"Guns, Germs and Steel" sucks in the way that most pop science books suck, but the two works are only obliquely related, other than Diamond calling out Rushton, if memory serves. Rushton is/was a Guggenheim fellow, so not a complete moonbat. Funny thing was the Murray mentions in the reprint of "The Bell Curve" how the vast majority of psychometricians are wary of popularity or public visibility, because the news cycle isn't very kind to much of their work.

As you've said, all of these works have been beaten to death, but having read both TBC and GGS, I would argue that one is rigourously scientific, and the other moderately so.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:39:51 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Dealing with some former Soviet people is A)  a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


I don't think many here consider race a key cultural variable.



You must have missed a lot of threads.  For some people, its their flippant answer and explanation for nearly everything.  GD has taught me about books and below the radar academic I had never heard of, arguing this very point.


Which books?


Rushton's "Race, Evolution and Behavior," for the most part.  It is often touted as the counterargument to Diamond's "Guns Germs, and Steel" - and the parallel structure of the title is probably no coincidence.  Bell Curve to a lesser extent, due to the chapter we have already beat to death.


"Guns, Germs and Steel" sucks in the way that most pop science books suck, but the two works are only obliquely related, other than Diamond calling out Rushton, if memory serves. Rushton is/was a Guggenheim fellow, so not a complete moonbat. Funny thing was the Murray mentions in the reprint of "The Bell Curve" how the vast majority of psychometricians are wary of popularity or public visibility, because the news cycle isn't very kind to much of their work.

As you've said, all of these works have been beaten to death, but having read both TBC and GGS, I would argue that one is rigourously scientific, and the other moderately so.


I enjoyed Diamond's book and didn't see any major flaws in it.  What was wrong with it?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:44:17 AM EDT
[#5]



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Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

Dealing with some former Soviet people is A)  a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.




I don't think many here consider race a key cultural variable.







You must have missed a lot of threads.  For some people, its their flippant answer and explanation for nearly everything.  GD has taught me about books and below the radar academic I had never heard of, arguing this very point.




Which books?




Rushton's "Race, Evolution and Behavior," for the most part.  It is often touted as the counterargument to Diamond's "Guns Germs, and Steel" - and the parallel structure of the title is probably no coincidence.  Bell Curve to a lesser extent, due to the chapter we have already beat to death.




"Guns, Germs and Steel" sucks in the way that most pop science books suck, but the two works are only obliquely related, other than Diamond calling out Rushton, if memory serves. Rushton is/was a Guggenheim fellow, so not a complete moonbat. Funny thing was the Murray mentions in the reprint of "The Bell Curve" how the vast majority of psychometricians are wary of popularity or public visibility, because the news cycle isn't very kind to much of their work.



As you've said, all of these works have been beaten to death, but having read both TBC and GGS, I would argue that one is rigourously scientific, and the other moderately so.




I enjoyed Diamond's book and didn't see any major flaws in it.  What was wrong with it?


It's an attempt to explain dominance of Western civilization in general and white people in particular as an accident of geography.

 
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:08:47 PM EDT
[#6]
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Why do people call it "The Ukraine" instead of just "Ukraine"?


  Blame the English who also still refer to it as The Lebanon,The Sudan,The Czech Republic...but we do call that portion of NYC The Bronx...


The Lebanon and The Sudan is incorrect, just like saying The Ukraine.  The Czech Republic is just fine.  It's the same as saying The United States.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:13:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:

I enjoyed Diamond's book and didn't see any major flaws in it.  What was wrong with it?


I think that Diamond hand-waved lots of issues away for readability.  There are all sorts of critiques out there that are from better sources than "Screechjet, random dude on the internets." Victor Davis Hanson did an excellent one that that undercut much of what Diamond posited about the Greeks, for example. One of my biology professors also argued the Diamond underestimated the intellectual effort to domestic barley, and considering the guy was a barley and wheat expert, and had done field work in Africa, I believed him.

I don't doubt that geography had a significant impact, but I think that you simply can't hand-wave culture away as a byproduct of geography.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:18:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
I enjoyed Diamond's book and didn't see any major flaws in it.  What was wrong with it?


The main flaw is starting from the desired answer and working backwards.

He has some clever arguments, some of which may actually contain valid points.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:32:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:

I enjoyed Diamond's book and didn't see any major flaws in it.  What was wrong with it?


I think that Diamond hand-waved lots of issues away for readability.  There are all sorts of critiques out there that are from better sources than "Screechjet, random dude on the internets." Victor Davis Hanson did an excellent one that that undercut much of what Diamond posited about the Greeks, for example. One of my biology professors also argued the Diamond underestimated the intellectual effort to domestic barley, and considering the guy was a barley and wheat expert, and had done field work in Africa, I believed him.

I don't doubt that geography had a significant impact, but I think that you simply can't hand-wave culture away as a byproduct of geography.


I wasn't impressed with Diamond's coverage of the conquest of the Incas. However, I'm basing this on the TV show version (which he was in), not the book itself.

The impression I get from reading the history of the conquest is that the outcome was very much do to different thinking on the part of the Spanish and Incas. The Spanish made prompt and decisive decisions, and ended up owning the OODA loop. Diamond doesn't seem to grasp this.

Diamond was interested in the fact that some Spanish lost control of their bowls, and discussed the rapier, a weapon that probably wasn't used in the battles (at least not to any extent).
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:36:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:

I wasn't impressed with Diamond's coverage of the conquest of the Incas. However, I'm basing this on the TV show version (which he was in), not the book itself.

The impression I get from reading the history of the conquest is that the outcome was very much do to different thinking on the part of the Spanish and Incas. The Spanish made prompt and decisive decisions, and ended up owning the OODA loop. Diamond doesn't seem to grasp this.

Diamond was interested in the fact that some Spanish lost control of their bowls, and discussed the rapier, a weapon that probably wasn't used in the battles (at least not to any extent).


Its been nearly a decade since I've read GG&S, but I do remember reading much more involved works on the Conquests of both the Incas and Aztecs and thinking the perceived conventional wisdom on both was just at best a caricature of actual events. Diamond attempts to explain the "why" conventional wisdom more than presenting a nuanced alternative. In both cases, I would say the political ossification of both the Incas and Aztecs failed them, more than other factors.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 2:06:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
With that said, these people have been extremely warm and friendly to Americans and dream of an opportunity to visit/move.  Sadly, I'm convinced their majory export is the select female population.  Because of this, they mostly see Western men and not that many American women so they expect we are there with $$$$ to spend.  So, a guy can retire to Ukraine with $20K for a NICE house in the rural area and live for about $200 month if you know the locals.


Hmm.  This is relevant to my interests.  Moar?  How safe is it from being expropriated?  Are the cops going to throw me in jail if I don't pay them monthly bribes?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 4:27:44 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
With that said, these people have been extremely warm and friendly to Americans and dream of an opportunity to visit/move.  Sadly, I'm convinced their majory export is the select female population.  Because of this, they mostly see Western men and not that many American women so they expect we are there with $$$$ to spend.  So, a guy can retire to Ukraine with $20K for a NICE house in the rural area and live for about $200 month if you know the locals.


Hmm.  This is relevant to my interests.  Moar?  How safe is it from being expropriated?  Are the cops going to throw me in jail if I don't pay them monthly bribes?


No visas required if staying less than 90 days but I know of a guy that overstayed and was able to convince the authorities to let him off with a warning.  I'm not sure about the visa requirements for a longer stay but I'm sure you can research more.  The guy that overstayed had something to do with taking a "cooling off period" from the FBI and he didn't have problems with the police.  People take CASH in this country and you can exchange dollars (8 to 1) at every bank.  Taxis are a couple of dollars while the bus system runs less than a quarter.  Cigarettes are CHEAP (less than $1.50) along with vodka so this explains all the smelly drunks.  I'm not sure the cost of female companionship but I had quite a few older women warming up to me.  The young, hot girls I would just walk up to and take pictures with and/or give long uncomfortable hugs.  I did get a little grabby with a few family members.

If you are actually serious about taking an extended stay, you need to become friends with some locals in the fringe communities and they will watch out for you.  I've been twice the past year and only know a couple of words and have survived once I made it to my destination where my former exchange student lived.

I did harrass a local movie shoot in Kieve but the policeman and I became buddies (unfortunately the actors dressed as soldiers didn't understand my "Wolverine" reference).  I also upset some of the police guarding the US Ambassador's house but I had a Ukrainian telling them I was a crazy American.  In all serious, the local population is very untrusting of the police force in general and are less inclined to interact so when I started dancing with a few, everybody was shocked.  
What the country lacks in work ethic is made up in cheap recreational fun.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 4:36:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
With that said, these people have been extremely warm and friendly to Americans and dream of an opportunity to visit/move.  Sadly, I'm convinced their majory export is the select female population.  Because of this, they mostly see Western men and not that many American women so they expect we are there with $$$$ to spend.  So, a guy can retire to Ukraine with $20K for a NICE house in the rural area and live for about $200 month if you know the locals.


Hmm.  This is relevant to my interests.  Moar?  How safe is it from being expropriated?  Are the cops going to throw me in jail if I don't pay them monthly bribes?


No visas required if staying less than 90 days but I know of a guy that overstayed and was able to convince the authorities to let him off with a warning.  I'm not sure about the visa requirements for a longer stay but I'm sure you can research more.  The guy that overstayed had something to do with taking a "cooling off period" from the FBI and he didn't have problems with the police.  People take CASH in this country and you can exchange dollars (8 to 1) at every bank.  Taxis are a couple of dollars while the bus system runs less than a quarter.  Cigarettes are CHEAP (less than $1.50) along with vodka so this explains all the smelly drunks.  I'm not sure the cost of female companionship but I had quite a few older women warming up to me.  The young, hot girls I would just walk up to and take pictures with and/or give long uncomfortable hugs.  I did get a little grabby with a few family members.

If you are actually serious about taking an extended stay, you need to become friends with some locals in the fringe communities and they will watch out for you.  I've been twice the past year and only know a couple of words and have survived once I made it to my destination where my former exchange student lived.

I did harrass a local movie shoot in Kieve but the policeman and I became buddies (unfortunately the actors dressed as soldiers didn't understand my "Wolverine" reference).  I also upset some of the police guarding the US Ambassador's house but I had a Ukrainian telling them I was a crazy American.  In all serious, the local population is very untrusting of the police force in general and are less inclined to interact so when I started dancing with a few, everybody was shocked.  
What the country lacks in work ethic is made up in cheap recreational fun.


OK, once is a typo, twice is intentional.  Why do you keep spelling Kiev, Kieve?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 4:52:34 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
I'm not sure the cost of female companionship but I had quite a few older women warming up to me.  The young, hot girls I would just walk up to and take pictures with and/or give long uncomfortable hugs.  I did get a little grabby with a few family members.


Uncomfortable for you, or uncomfortable for them?

If the young, hot chicks are grabbing older men and making them uncomfortable, I am so over there.
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