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Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:15:11 PM EST
Why must a the street police officer know the difference between an H&K USP tactical and an H&K SOCCOM or an SAR1 and and MAK 90 or a High Point 9mm and a Bryco .380?
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Not to bash cops or anything, but these cops fill out reports, which then get turned over to the media, who in turn, report that the perp used a "full auto Ak-47 Assualt Rifle" when he actually had an AR-15.
Yes, most cops don't have much of an intrest in weapons, or much of a care about them, and in light of that we should not support a LEO only national CCW.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:21:03 PM EST
By your line of reasoning,  we should do away with CCW altogether, since most folks have no interest in guns at all.  As for reports,  media does not see the complete report.  That is confidential for trial and is not released in it's entireity until conviction and appeals have occurred. What they see is a "press release". Not written by the police, but public affairs. However,  i will give you one good reason you need to support CCW for police.  National carry for everyone will never happen without massive police support. When someone comes to us asking for that help,  we're darn sure going to remember how we were slammed by you.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:22:40 PM EST
Dave_G, I am certainly not trying to bust your chops, but...
for safety's sake, when ejecting a round from a semi auto pistol, your hand should not be over the ejection port. If the extractor pulls the primer into the ejector hard enough, you'll have one helluva boo boo on your hand.
I used to do it the way you describe, until I went to Glock armorer school and transition course. It can happen with pretty much any semi pistol. I had rather be chasing a round around, than my fingers!
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 5:10:00 PM EST
By your line of reasoning,  we should do away with CCW altogether, since most folks have no interest in guns at all.  As for reports,  media does not see the complete report.  That is confidential for trial and is not released in it's entireity until conviction and appeals have occurred. What they see is a "press release". Not written by the police, but public affairs. However,  i will give you one good reason you need to support CCW for police.  National carry for everyone will never happen without massive police support. When someone comes to us asking for that help,  we're darn sure going to remember how we were slammed by you.
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Sorry to tell you this, but in order to get a CCW in all applicable states except for Vermont, you must have some form of approved firearms course, and the civilians who go through the hoops to get the classes most definitely have an interest in firearms, even if it's just their carry piece.
As for the press releases, PA gets the info from the cop's report, and if he/she has no clue about the firearms used, then PA will pass incorrect info, and the problem is worse when  tv interviews are done.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 5:42:18 PM EST

I've never seen a semiauto centerfire or rimfire handgun where the ejector can contact the primer during the normal extraction process.

Perhaps I'm missing something.  Could you enlighten us with what the Glock guys said?  Maybe specific firearms prone to this type of occurance or the circumstances where such a thing could happen?  This is a serious request, by the way.  


john's right about the national CCW for all needing overwhelming LE support.  It won't happen without it.  Period.  And the percentage of LE with a non-work-related interest in firearms is still higher than the percentage of "civilian" CCW holders compared to the entire "civilian" population of the country.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:20:55 PM EST
I, for one, find it ironic that given the basic principles of how firearms operate and ballistics of the projectiles, most LEO's are quite ignorant of THE tool essential to their ability to carry out their job. If you question the essential nature of THE tool, ask yourself if you would work without one as a Police Officer. Why then would you not have interest in THE tool.
Ignorance or apathy,
I don't know, and I don't care.
Typical manifestation of unprofessionalism.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:00:16 PM EST

Few officers ever have to discharge a firearm anywhere but the range.  All the average officer has to know is how to maintain and fire the weapon with acceptable results and within specified limits.  But most firearms enthusiasts who aren't in law enforcement can't see anything beyond the weapon, the uniform and the accouterments of authority.  The sidearm is just one of the tools.  The tool most essential to a law enforcement officer isn't any firearm.  It's good old-fashioned common sense.  Good common sense will keep you out of trouble so you don't need to resort to a weapon to [b]get[/b] you out of trouble.  The goal is to go home in one piece at the end of the shift.  The ultimate goal is to retire at the end of a long, safe career with as few aches and pains as possible.

You watch too many movies and TV shows where the main characters get in two or three shootouts every show.  You don't know the job.  Learn before you leap to conclusions and display manifestations of pistol envy.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:34:25 AM EST
Hydguy,  I'm a Texas CHL instructor.  Many cops are. The CHL course emphasizes legal/safety concerns over weapons instruction. A lot of my students fall into two categories. Older white males with a definite firearms interest, (You could call them rancher types) and first time gun owners who either want a CHL because of a violent threat,  (just about all women) or because of a New found passion for firearms. (Yuppie types)  Actual shooting time is about two hours depending on class size. 100 rounds, including practice. Yuppie to rancher ratio is about 15 to 1.  A lot of folks show up to class with their first gun still in the original packaging. The amount of formal training these two types bring to class is minimal to non-existant. The first time I saw 9mm ammo fired in a .40 cal  was on a CHL range. Very few of them progress to more training beyond the CHL. I have students FAIL the course of fire constantly and have to retest them a week later. ( the ridiculously easy course of fire starts at practically touching distance)  Cadet classes are 2 weeks and 1400 rounds total.  (Use of force etc. is a separate course of instruction.)  Officers are also trained on how to clear/make safe weapons by action type. (Revolver, lever action rifle, etc)  There is no need, or any possible way, to train everyone to the knowledge level of an advanced gun collector. Go back to Dave's post for a second.  He's right on target.  As for press releases,  let me give you an example:

(Start of press release:)
On 20020518 at approx 0120 hrs, Austin police  (Callsign) responded to a call of a possible shooting located at the southeast corner of 11th and Chicon in east Austin.  Upon arrival officers located the victim which appeared to have been shot in the chest. (End of press release.)

Anything else you read in the news is going to be either an outright fabrication, speculation, or hearsay dredged up by the reporter. Remember,  media is not your friend.  When was the last time you saw ANYTHING in print that was even 80% accurate?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 10:17:59 AM EST
Dave_G, I went back to Smyrna in mid-April to re-certify at Glock for the third time. (you have to re-certify every 3 years) They emphasize keeping your hand away from the ejection port because there have been incidents of the primer striking the ejector hard enough to cause the bullet to go off while un-chambered. There have been several injuries.
An un-chambered round going off with your hand in one of the paths of least resistance could cost you your hand.
Both Bob McCracken, retired DEA firearms senior instructor, and Paul Britt, also a retired DEA senior firearms instructor emphasis this.
I had McCracken as my first Glock instructor in '94, then Britt in '97 and '02.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 10:27:49 AM EST
JohninAustin: If you run into a CO named Jamal Zawawi, say hi. He used to work the road here in Florida for me. You also have a much different rule for press release than we do. The Freedom of Information Act, and Sunshine Law in Florida requires that we give the press, and anyone who wants to know almost unlimited information. They do not get sex crimes victims names, juveniles names unless they have been adjudicated adults, and ongoing investigations information, or detectives notes and supplements.
Any citizen can come in and merely ask for a report, which we have to copy at a very small charge. They can ask for a copy of all internal e-mails, this includes car to car MCT chatter. If an agency tries to withhold a report, it is on the agency to prove that the information is so sensitive or important to an investigation that it cannot be released.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 10:29:18 AM EST
You were being way to specific,a nine mm is a nine mm,whether it be a 9x19,9x18 or a lowly 9x17(.308).   What really throws everbody off coarse is their is no 38 cal.

It is indeed a .357 actualy smaller than a .380 in diameter ,and a 9x18 mak is actually bigger than a nine mil in size of bullet cal.  And then again their is a 38 S&W which some call a 38 short about the size of a 9x19.

So you can take a 38 special case and load it hot enough to be a .357 mag ,so there for they made the case too long to put it in a 38 special. keeps a lot of people from swelling if not blowing their cylinders up.

So just because evey LEO out there doesn't the difference between a 9x19 lugar from a 9x21 largo doesn't mean they aren't trying.  Its a lot to know. And I bet that CZ was a 7.62x25.

And Oh yaw I like carrots ,and the 10mm auto.

    Bob    [8D]
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Umm and what do you do with these "carrots"?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 10:43:42 AM EST
Lebrew, get real. I am a veteran cop, who like you has an interest in firearms. Yet, unlike so many other non LEO posters on this subject, know I don't know it all. There is too damn much material out there for anyone to know it all. It is nice if an officer is knowledgtabel in the area of firearms and ballistics, but it is not required.
Whenever you see mis-identified firearms in the news, it is generally the news fault. When I check a firearm into evidence, I put what is on the firearms itself as to make. Not what I think it is.
Can you tell if a firearm has been converted to select fire without a detailed mechanical inspection or firing it? To preserve evidence, I am not in a position to do that. I have indications of tampering that I will note in the report. But I don't go screwing around with evidence.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 11:08:00 AM EST

I tried to create a situation where the ejector in a S&W Sigma 40G (no Glocks here) was in contact with the primer area of an action proving dummy round and there was some part of the weapon that could trap the bullet and provide resistance to the slide slammed closed from full open.  No luck.  The Sigma's barrel hood at the top right rear of the barrel is relieved and bevelled to prevent such an occurance.  Is the Glock's barrel hood so configured?  The S&W 4006 is also designed to prevent trapping a loaded round in such a manner as is my Kahr K9.

The SIG 226 and 228 is another story.  The upper right corner of the barrel hood (viewed from the rear) is identical to the upper left and can trap a hollowpoint bullet and may allow a bullet to be caught between the ejector and the barrel hood if the slide is dropped with a round properly aligned in that area.  Of course, Mr. Murphy would ensure that such a thing happened.

I couldn't duplicate the extractor holding a case with the primer in contact with the ejector, but maybe I was trying too hard.

All of these trials were conducted with the slide locked to the rear with an empty magazine inserted.  It was a limited test and should be considered "for information only" and are not conclusive in any way.  

OK.  Now you've piqued my interest!  Did they say the potential was limited to Glocks and SIGs or was it a general warning?  Also, did they say this occurred when the slide was racked hard to the rear; when the open, unlocked slide slipped and slammed closed on a round loose in the ejection port area; or were they unable to or simply didn't describe the circumstances of the situation?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 11:24:33 AM EST
Dave, there was a specific warning for the Glock. It was also emphasized that it could occur with other types of semi auto's. It was presented that when unloading, racking the slide firmly to the rear, a round could be captured by the extractor, angle out towards the ejection port, striking the extractor with enough force to pop the primer.
It is apparently a rare occurrence. Still I had just as soon not have it happen to me. I have enough scars from the job now as it is.
In the Army we had a similar problem with the M85 .50 machinegun. When you cleared the weapon, you were supposed to hold back on the charging handle. This was in case the bolt had not fully engaged the sear. If you opened the cover like this, the bolt would slam forward firing the round. The round would then explode in your face. I saw a guy get killed like this at Ft. Knox. So, I tend to heed any warning's about peculiar actions of firearms when they are being unloaded.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 11:46:36 AM EST
My opinon still stands that most officers have attained less than desirable competence in regards to firearms in general. Sometimes the truth hurts but it is still the truth. In response to jumping to conclusions, I base my conclusions on personal observations and experience. TV is bogus. A couple days at Thunder Ranch would do much to achieve a desired level and make it safer for the cop so he or she can continue to do their jobs well. In our little community in south Texas we even paid for 5 city PD, 1 TX DPS, and 1 Constable to go thru Farnums course.  AS far as not knowing the job, your are absolutely right, I do not know the job since I am not a police officer. But there are similarities in any profession with regards to minimum acceptble level of performance. For example,in my field of expertise, the policy states we have to have BCLS. A few of of have ACLS, PALS, BTLS and ATLS.
I dont believe raising the bar is going to hurt anyone, is it?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 12:34:14 PM EST
The problem with sending every officer to advanced firearms training, or even adding an extra few days of such training to the basic academy courses boils down to two things...Time and Money.  Who pays?

And you're still focusing on firearms and advanced firearms skills as a primary tool of the average law enforcement officer.  It's important, but not of primary importance in the overall scope of things.  If you can't understand that simple fact, further discussion is pointless.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 1:20:05 PM EST
Yeah I'll admit you are right.
After all the stats speak for themselves.
What is the shots fired to hit ratio again?
Pointless indeed.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:36:43 PM EST
The shot's fired vs. number of hit's came out in the late 1970's. It was compiled from NYPD records. It did not factor out things like ND's and suicides. Statistics can be made to read whatever you want them to. All it takes is one shootout like the North Hollywood shoot out to skew the average into meaningless garbage.
I am glad you come from a small place where it is easy to send everyone to a high speed school. If you'll send me a check, I'll send all 160 of my deputy's to an advanced school. I do prefer Blackwater Training to Thunder Ranch, so make out the check to them.
We are currently in the midst of Responding to the Active Shooter mandatory training for all sworn personnel. We use Simunitions in live fire scenarios. Just this 16 hour in service cost lot's of money. Not to mention the Taser Ops and Bean Bag class we just finished. Then there is blood borne pathogens, HazMat, Reacting to Weapons of Mass Destruction, Human Diversity, Domestic Violence, Defibrillator training, Juvenile Sex Crimes, OC and baton, and on and on. All mandatory training that has been put on so far this year. Then we have all sorts of live firearms training coming up on our new 12 acre range complex.
Yep, there are other things out there besides firearms to keep us busy.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:54:38 PM EST

Did the Glock Guys recommend specific techniques for clearing a Glock, or any other semiauto handguns?  It's always good to learn a safer technique.  That and I do wish to remain attached to my fingers...[;)]
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 4:55:54 PM EST
Seems to me that a round falling on the ground could have enough force to pop the primer, depending on what it hit. I have never seen it happen but have heard about it from more than one person.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 4:58:43 PM EST
It's in the Armorers manual as well. Remove the magazine, keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction with your finger off the trigger. Grasp the serrations at the back of the slide with the non-firing hand. With the ejection port angled away from you, pull back with the non-firing hand. At the same time with your thumb of the firing hand, push up on the slide stop, (most pistols call this the slide release) locking the slide to the rear. Visually, and physically inspect the chamber and magazine well.
I don't personally like the round hitting the ground, so I try to have it land on something soft if possible.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:02:27 PM EST
Neolock, the only primer I have ever heard of popping from hitting the ground is a shotgun primer.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 9:48:15 PM EST
If you're concerned about the primer popping when the round hits the ground, find a clear flat surface, kneel down and hold the weapon,  upside down if possible, and slowly rack the slide to the rear.  It minimizes the drop distance and the force with which the round is ejected.  Otherwise, eject the round into a soft container.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 9:31:22 PM EST
Thunder Ranch.  That's nice.  We have 1100 officers.  Can I set up an appointment for Thursday?  BTW:  If you insist police officer's are untrained because they have not been to Thunder Ranch or an equivalent school,  what does that make the vast majority of CHL holders? Maybe they should go through all that other state mandated training we do also.  160 class hours a year.  One entire working month, 8 hours a day.  Shouldn't interfere all that much, and will include things a lot more commonly used than shooting skills.  
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 12:25:03 AM EST
Murdershoe45   I eat them of course,as I have no juice-man 2000-  beta-carotine won't stop bullets but can kill cancer.   Dave-G is right about useing lead bullets in your piece,as I use a 1911 and like the way they act in my gun.

But to think that hopes and a piece of shirt is going to get the lead out of your bore, you can't shoot it out with jacketed rounds as the lead is there and makes for uneeded pressure!

I you were just shooting wolfs cheap ammo then yes ,because it's jacketed rounds with just really dirty powder.   But if it's real lead bullets you need to use something like the tornado stainless bore cleaner to get the lead out of the rifling.

Yes I like lead reloads,but they are not tightly crimped and can move backward into the case causeing deadly failures anywhere except at the range.

So it boils down to it's your life on the line,if you use lead bullets you had better know how to unlead your barrel and ramp!  

 The army hasn't used lead bullets for a long time just for this reason.     God bless you guys for what you do,I'm just too old and cratchety to put up with the shit you guys have to.

 A friend  Bob [8D]
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:04:34 AM EST

We each set own own pace in this world.

If its not important to the cop, it really does not bother me if they manifest poor gunmanship.
As far as TX CHL, its a joke of a class. Its curriculum its set by the TX DPS not by me. It also is set to the minimum acceptable standards.

Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:39:12 AM EST
We are in agreement on the TX CHL class.  I've just about stopped giving classes except to very select persons.  I most probably  will let my instructor's permit just expire this year.  However,  that does not address my original question.  If you are demanding such high standards of knowledge of the police,  how about CHL holders?  Very few of them know which end the bullet comes out of,  and have no training in deadly force issues except for the pitiful amount taught in class. Shouldn't they be trained to a much higher standard as well?
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 2:06:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 6:17:27 AM EST
I spent a couple of hours last night at the kithen table with a 2 Beretta's, (380 and 9mm), three Smiths, (9mm, 40, 45) and two 1911's,  (38 super and 45) I don't own any Glocks.  Upside down, right side up, muzzle at the floor, ceiling, straight ahead,  slow, fast, just about any way I could think of.  I could not duplicate this. Even put together some dummy rounds with different weight bullets. Is this one of those "might/could/maybe" situations,  or has anyone ever heard of an actual documented case?
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 7:31:40 AM EST
I haven't, and I don't consider it likely that it would happen with factory ammunition.  The slide just doesn't have enough velocity built up in 1/4 inch of travel to pop most primers and if the magazine is removed first, trapping a round in the ejection port would be difficult.

BUT...If an alternate method of clearing a weapon, like holding the weapon inside an evidence bag on the ground (Not Concrete!) and ejecting the round into the bag is available, why not use it?
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 3:36:40 PM EST
DaveG and JohninAustin, I have never seen this type of incident happen. That does not mean that it can't or won't. As Glock 918 say's, at Glock it is stressed that it can and has happened. I am a firearms instructor and rangemaster, about to be training director. So, I would be remiss if I didn't point out something others are doing that I have been taught is a potential safety hazard.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 3:52:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 3:21:08 AM EST
People are suprised that cops don't know about guns because so many attempt to make the public think they do.
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I have another theory. Perhaps people believe that cops are firearms experts because they carry them for a living and the majority of Americans know very little about firearms. Or perhaps they believe that because they want to.
Then again maybe our mind control tactics are working. If so they are more effective than the old Jedi mind trick.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:01:47 AM EST
We are in agreement on the TX CHL class.  If you are demanding such high standards of knowledge of the police,  how about CHL holders?  Very few of them know which end the bullet comes out of,  and have no training in deadly force issues except for the pitiful amount taught in class. Shouldn't they be trained to a much higher standard as well?
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Last time I looked, CHL holders had a better record than police officers when it came to firearms use. So maybe the run-of-the-mill CHL holder isn't doing so badly, as pathetic as they may be.

And back to the original start of this thread, I don't think it's unreasonable for a cop to be expected to know that the difference between 9x19, 9x18 and 9x17 is more than "a silly millimeter longer".
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:57:44 AM EST

Comparing the CHL/CCW holder "record" to that of law enforcement is like comparing apples to oranges.  The potential for and the occurance of high-stress, potentially lethal conflict is much higher for police than CHL/CCW holders with activity by the police being more likely to be proactive and that of CHL/CCW holders to be reactive or defensive.

As for the more technical knowledge of firearms identifications, it isn't necessary.  There are experts to perform that function and the cost in both time and money to provide that level of training to all officers would be prohibitive.  You would be paying for it, you know...
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 8:15:19 AM EST
Tinker, I'd be fascinated to see your stats on that subject. The last "self defense" CHL shooting I worked was a clear-cut double homicide.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:11:32 PM EST
Garandshooter, if you will check into the Kaboom of Glock's, you will find that they are caused by moron's who do not follow factory instructions. The owners manual say's, don't shoot lead or reloads. I have been dealing with Glock's for years. Having worked a privately owned range, and police ranges, I have yet to see it happen. Of course, around here, we cop's are smart enough to read and follow the directions.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:48:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:07:10 PM EST
Why do most "civilains" have no idea about:

Vehicle dynamics?
Vehicle mecahnics?
Air conditioning?

I could go on and on. Many of those things could killy you, if you lack knowledge.

Vehicles kill 10 times more people every year than guns. Yet there are people out there that have as much knowledge of driving as a 4th grader. I just put the gas in when the guage tells me to...........

Yes LEO's should be knowlegable about guns but they also need to be able to

Drive an emergency vehicle safely (many cops will never fire their guns in the line of duty, but ALL will drive an emergency vehicle at some time, most will do it regulary.)
Know Criminal Laws.
Know Traffic Regulation
Know local codes/ordinances.
Complete detailed reports.
Investigate crimes, from theft to murder.
Use video cameras, digital camers, and 35 mm cameras.
Use communication equipment
Use computers, mobile, local, and State/Nationwide systems.
Complete citations.
Use radar/laser speed measuring devices.
Self defense and arrest "tactics"
Understand tactical movement, building clearing, hi-risk traffic stop, etc. etc.
Gather and process evidence.
Interview victims, witnesses, and suspects.
Testify in Court.
First Aid, CPR, AED use.
Traffic crash investigation.
Crime scene preservation.
Be above average "observers".

There are a lot of things to know. Not everyone can know everything.

Does it really matter if the cop thinks he has an AK-47(semi, legal type) but instead has a Chinese knock off (semi- legal), or an SKS?? Does it really make any difference?

Link Posted: 5/24/2002 5:23:16 AM EST
Tinker, I'd be fascinated to see your stats on that subject. The last "self defense" CHL shooting I worked was a clear-cut double homicide.
View Quote

Myth #9 "Citizens are too incompetent to use guns for protection"

"Nationally good citizens use guns about seven to ten times as frequently as the police to repel crime and apprehend criminals and they do it with a better safety record than the police. [3] About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are loss than 1 in 26,000.[27] Citizens intervening in crime are less likely to be wounded than the police."

This bit of text is fromn the Second Amendment Sisters website [url] http://www.2asisters.org/education/ninemyths.htm#*%20Myth%20#9 [/url]

Here are the references they give to support these statements:
[3] Kleck G. Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. New York: Aldine de Gruyter. 1991.
[27] Cramer C and Kopel D. "Shall Issue?: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994.

Obviously the training needs of police and non-police citizens are different, but it appears to me that the training non-police are getting is "good enough" for the purpose, at least as compared to the "average" police officer.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 6:31:48 AM EST
Tinker,  I never said CHL holders were incompetent. Please do not put words into my mouth.  If I considered them incompetent I wouldn't teach CHL classes.  The point I'm trying to make is that various posters cannot put down a police officer for not being a "gun guru" and at the same time tout CHL holders as being better,  when the CHL holders have even LESS training than those same police.  Do I really care that the Makarov I confiscated from a drive-by is a Chinese or Russian?  Nope, not really.  Does anyone other than a gun hobbyist care?  No not really either.  

BTW:  thanks for the info, I already have the SAS links.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 4:10:21 PM EST
As an officer I see just what you are talking about. I see it in my own dept. Now on my shift, well we carry enough weapons and ammo for ourselves and any other enforcement agency that may back us, or vise versa. My unit alone I have my glock 22 on my side, my g-24 on the seat next to me, a shotgun locked on the cage above my head, my AR locked on the cage standing between the seats, and an M1A in the trunk with enough rounds for each to have a small war. Just don't want to get caught short if something major should happen.
Link Posted: 6/1/2002 8:57:55 AM EST
Good Grief!  Where do you work?
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