I see no reason to buy HKs when I can buy Kimbers, Paras, S&Ws, and Kahrs.  American made, baby.

Quoted: I see no reason to buy HKs when I can buy Kimbers, Paras, S&Ws, and Kahrs.  American made, baby.

Isn't Para from Canada?? and if folks are so worried about HK and "how they don't care about us" Why would you be in favor of S&W who gave in to the gun lawsuits.

I don't care where is it made...so long that it well made and works when I want it to work.

Chris

I don't really hate there guns but I do hate there management. You can't  take hate out on a innocent weapon, if the gun jams it's the designer's you should hate.

Quoted: Quoted: ...Name a better assualt rifle than the XM8... That'd be easy, but I promised to keep my trap shut. It'll be made public in its own due time. You have no idea. However, I'm highly biased in favor of the USP Tactical, though.

What the hell? HALT this thread for a minute.

I have no problem believing you based on what I have already seen on the AR market - but are you and HFG on the same boat, in kahoots with each other?

What do you do for a living?

Quoted: Quoted: I see no reason to buy HKs when I can buy Kimbers, Paras, S&Ws, and Kahrs.  American made, baby. Isn't Para from Canada?? and if folks are so worried about HK and "how they don't care about us" Why would you be in favor of S&W who gave in to the gun lawsuits. I don't care where is it made...so long that it well made and works when I want it to work. Chris

Yes, Para is Canadian.  They have supported American gun owners through thick and thin, so they make it in my book.

Just in case you've been living under a rock, Smith & Wesson's new AMERICAN owner (Saf-T-Hammer) blew off all the Klinton-Kuomo crap with Ashcroft's blessing.

With Para, Kimber, S&W, and Kahr, you KNOW you will be supprted through thick and thin.  With HK, you just never know when they'll leave you with an unsupportable weapon.  Ask any HK-91 owner how easy is it to get parts from HK USA.

I don't hate HK.  I just pretend they don't exist.  And I don't have to pretend very hard.

Quoted: overpriced, and the company couldn't give a shit if you are happy or not. they build some good stuff but for the price it's not THAT good. mike

Yea......but they're better than glock huh TBS.


I had a HK91, nice, not thrilling, but nice.
However, I'm a HUGE fan of the USPs, especially the .45s

My  USP40 = all good

I love their guns

HKs suck for the following reasons:
1.  Made by pussies in Germany
2.  Handgun trigger reach MUCH too long
3.  Made by pussies in Germany
4.  DOUBLE action semi autos are stupid...no matter WHO makes them
5.  Made by pussies in Germany
6.  Rifle/carbines sights are IMPOSSIBLE to acquire quickly
7.  Made by pussies in Germany
8.  No bolt lock back on long guns...how HARD could THAT be for the great German engineers to    figure out?
9.  Made by pussies in Germany

Need I go on?

Quoted: HKs suck for the following reasons: 2.  Handgun trigger reach MUCH too long

No longer than a Beretta 92FS.

4.  DOUBLE action semi autos are stupid...no matter WHO makes them

Really, DOD, CT forces, and SWAT teams around the world seem to disagree with you.

6.  Rifle/carbines sights are IMPOSSIBLE to acquire quickly

Again, DOD, CT forces, foreign militaries, and SWAT teams around the world seem to disagree.

8.  No bolt lock back on long guns...how HARD could THAT be for the great German engineers to figure out?

Obviously you've never picked up a G3 A3, HK-21, HK-11, HK-23, HK-33, or PSG-1.

1.  Made by pussies in Germany 3.  Made by pussies in Germany 5.  Made by pussies in Germany 7.  Made by pussies in Germany 9.  Made by pussies in Germany

Have you even been to Germany, genius?  If not, please take a trip there and stop at two cities to explain why Germans are pussies.  Please promote your wisdom in Hangelar and Saint Augustin.  I'm sure you will further your breadth of knowledge there after the GSG-9 give you an extensive lesson.  

Need I go on?

Yes.  Please go, as fast as you can, either to Hangelar and Saint Augustin or back to the bridge you crawled out from under.

I love my USP Tactical, and will most likely be getting a compact Tactical early next year, but I don't really care much for anything else they sell. A G36, UMP, or MP5 would be fun toys, but I wouldn't buy any on my limited budget even if they were readily available. The MP5SD6 however, is one sweet little gun. I'd buy one of those if you could get one without the inflated price of a transferable one.

Daddy Likey

Quoted: There are probably more people who are in love with HK products that have never touched one than those that don't like them and haven't touched one.  HK has built up a certain mistique due to the MP5 being widely featured in movies and games for the last 20 years or so, and its presence in the hands of actual SWAT teams and such.  And, hey, the MP5 is a FANTASTIC subgun, and IMO the best in class. Relatively few people have actually owned and used other HK guns aside from the G3/HK91, which is a design even older than the AR.  Thus, those other products are mysterious and interesting to many.... Some of us DO know what we're talking about. -Troy

Well I have experience with the following HK products:
USP45 tactical with and without suppressor.
MP5-PDW
HK-21

Three weapons of three different classes.  All, in my opinion, were fine firearms of almost every respect.  Does this mean that I know what I'm talking about, Troy?

i really dont

i hate AKs!!!
they have crappy range and groups


but they are fun to shoot

Quoted: Quoted: Well I have experience with the following HK products: USP45 tactical with and without suppressor. Great pistol for what it's designed to do, but I was talking about their long-gun family, which is where the issues referred to by the thread starter concerned. MP5-PDW Great gun; I said as much in my post. HK-21 Good gun, but the whole world agrees that it simply isn't as good as an M240. And, again, the main issues concern the MODERN, PLASTIC HK designs, which even few stamped-receiver HK owners will defend.  Guns like the G-36, UMP, and XM8 (and of course, the civvy versions: the SL-8 and the USC).  None of these designs could possibly be considered to the best in their class, yet they are among the most expensive, despite being cheap to manufacture, largely due to the false "HK Mistique" that too many people give them. -Troy

Troy:  I agree with you 100%.  I just wish I could compare the M240 with the HK-21!  I will never forget my HK-21 experiences!  HK is one of those "secret" manufacturers that the majority of people with opinions on them, positive or negative, probably have never fired them in the first place.  Again, we are in total agreement.

Not much to comment on when it comes to long guns.  I've fired HK91s and 93s but never owned one.  Not too long afterwards I bought my first AR...

My USP Tactical is, well, okay.  Frankly I'm looking at a Kimber TLE as a replacement.

I do think that the HK P7 series is one of the finest handguns ever made, however.

Quoted: Plus, H&K has a marketing blitz that really pushes the "tactical" aspect of their products that so many armchair commandos find appealing.

ME ME ME!!

I've been a fan of and around HK weapons for over 20 years.  My impressions:

Not very impressed with their rifles as far as ease of use, functionality, cost to own (when factoring in initial purchase, cost of accessories, etc.)  For overall value, ease of conversion, and best platform the AR-15 wins every time.

Accuracy on rifles nowhere near as good as other, less expensive guns.

Subguns are very nice (MP5SD was VERY sweet), but again the cost factor is an issue.

I won't comment on customer service - enough said already.

MODERN pistols are OK, but there are others out there that are much less expensive that fit the bill.



Now, with that said, I will say that the OLDER pistols (P7, and especially the P9S) are INCREDIBLE!  My two P9s (9mm and .45) are my favorite handguns of all time.  You just can't buy a nicer pistol out of the box than these bad boys.  Trigger pull is amazing (like a $500 custom trigger), accuracy is incredible, and ease of suppression is a factor as well.

I will never give up my P9s

My experience with H&K is pretty limited.  I owned a Benelli Super 90 from the days they partnered together, regret to hell selling it to buy a Colt Delta H-BAR.  But I assume that that is outside of the scope of this discussion.

A friend has a USP Tactical in .40 SW.  I like it, not as much as my Browning or Glock, but better than the Beretta, SIG, Ruger equivalents.  Reason I liked it was due to feel, I just don't like the big autos so much.

Fired HK91s a few times.  Not a bad rifle but like Troy and Campybob said, it's stamped and welded sheet steel.  Parkerized and enamel painted IIRC.  I've done a fair bit of cost estimating work on similar products (not firearms, but components manufactured with the same processes) and if BM can sell an AR for $700 and make a profit, there is no way in hell H&K couldn't sell an HK91/93 family of weapon for the same price and still make a bit more money.  They just choose not to.

If I could get an HK91 new (or at least a new barrel) for $700, I'd be all over it, especially considering how cheap the mags are.  I'm sure other people would too.  I just laugh at the people who think there's some great craftsmanship in their design/build that justifies a +$1000 price.  THAT just isn't the case.

Quoted: Most haters have not or do not own an HK!!! Everyone of my HK's are worth every penny I spent on 'em

Yep, class envy plain and simple

Outstanding weapons, but overpriced.

I have only had one HK gun, a USP Compact. It was a decent gun, but I wasn't overly impressed. The buffer(?) on the recoil spring rattled around, which I did think was kind of shitty. I didn't, and still don't, see what the big deal was about them. Certainly nice, but not much more so than my Glock 19's or my Kimber .45.

While I like the quality and feel of my USP9c but I can't hit the broad-side-of-a-barn with it!  Now it's my wife's pistol

I don't hate the company, or the companies products. I hate the prices on the companies products.

And I've owned several (P7M8, SP89, P9S). I'd still own them if they hadn't been worth so much.

Too expensive, I have a rifle, a couple pistols, but I still want a Benelli/H&K shotgun and a squeezecocker.

Overrated, over priced and they don't care about our market.


Fine weapons otherwise.

I've had a chance to shoot a lot of HK stuff...  USP45, USP45 Tactical, Mk23, USP .40 Expert (still have it), HK91, MP5 (A3s, PDWs, SDs), G36K prototype, Benelli M1, M1014 (the new Marine issue shotgun), and the UMP.  

Of all of them, if I had my choice, I would keep the USP .40 Expert and the MP5SD.  My Expert shoots every bit as well as a tuned Wilson Combat .45 I have.  Probably the best trigger on a polymer gun I have ever shot.  Shoots better than I can on a regular basis...

The MP5SD was absolutely fantastic.  It  is definitely the best subgun produced to this point.  Fit and finish were great, accuracy was excellent - the only issue was reliability, but that was probably due to extreme use (folks lining up with mags to dump full auto).  Hell, I liked all the MP5 family...

The UMP is fun, but I'm not totally sure about a total plastic gun because it seems to make them quite bulky.  I guess this goes for the G36 as well...  Especially the magazines...

I ripped the charging handle off the G-36K and the reps said it was indestructible!  Ha - just give it to me, I'll show you indestructible...

The only drawbacks to HK weapons are:
1. Cost
2. Availability (which happens to drive the cost up)
3. Company policy (you can't tell me they wouldn't make millions selling their guns in the US - they'd probably even sell a few to those who bash them in this thread!)
4. Cost of accessories and magazines ($40 is the lowest price on a used MP5/HK94 mag out there??? - of course the surplus and aftermarket community is not nearly as big as the AR-15 one, which goes back to cost and availability)

Spooky

HK's are expensive but I like my usp compact .45 as my carry gun and mk23 is just fun to shoot outher than that useless due to size.

Quoted: Quoted: Most haters have not or do not own an HK!!! Everyone of my HK's are worth every penny I spent on 'em Yep, class envy plain and simple

Amen to that!  My Comp 9mm SS is a blast to shoot and own!  I'm working on a Mk23 just after my precision rifle project.

Not a lot of poeple get exposure to HK because of price.  People would rather get quick cheap things and be able to blast off rounds.  In some of those cases, quality may not be an issue.  

While I don't hate HK's, I agree that MOST HK products are overpriced for what you get.

For the same $$$ that it would cost you to get a genuine HK91 or HK93(no clones need apply), you could get something of the same quality or better in the same caliber that will do the job just as well or better and have plenty of moolah-yo left for mags & ammo and other accessories.

I haven't had much experience with the MP5 and that was several years ago, but will agree that it's pretty much the best subgun out there. It'll be a L-O-N-G time before something else steals it's thunder & replaces it on the throne.

I used to own a HK91...I thought it was OK, but there were too many things about the rifle that I didn't like that prompted me to part with it for something else...

What I didn't like about the HK91...YMMV...

1)- The bolt didn't lock open on the last shot. Not rocket science, you'd think they could have addressed that issue by now.

2)- A REAL bitch to get good and thoroughly clean. Too time consuming. I finally began resorting to Gumout Carburator Cleaner to get all the carbon out of it. Damn fluted chamber...

3)- Excessive recoil. I'm no wimp when it comes to recoil from a rifle, but that 91's recoil was pretty unpleasant. I'd put 100 or so rounds through it at the range and actually have a bruised shoulder for a couple of days afterward.

4)- The sights. The diopter sights are a great concept, but poorly executed. If your ammo doesn't follow the ballistic curve used in the sights, you're screwed at any range except for the one you have the rifle zeroed for. PLUS! You need a "Special Tool" to make adjustments to the sights. If you loose the "Special Tool", you're out of luck.

5)- The trigger pull was an abomination. VERY HEAVY with too much creep.  It wasn't conducive too decent accuracy at all. The only real answer was a very expensive PSG-1 Trigger Pack.

6)- Mag changes were too awkward. Changing mags took two hands and too much time. Yeah, I know, the AR takes two hands, also. But at least the weapon's designer had something resembling ergonomics on his mind when it came to that aspect of operating the rifle.

7)- Price/Availability of accessories. $400+ for a plain-jane collapsible buttstock? $400+ for a PSG-1 Trigger Pack to get a decent trigger pull? How much for a 1200-meter iron sight(actually a decent unit)? How much for a HK claw scope mount?

8)- Weight. That damn thing was HEAVY, at least that was my perception of it. Perhaps it was because the rifle wasn't balanced very well. Seemed to be front-heavy.

BTW- I traded the HK91 for a M1A & $$$. Solved EVERY gripe I had with the HK91 in one fell swoop...

I prefer SIG-Sauer pistols, but have had some experience with the HK USP series. They seem to be a pretty well thought-out design. My next pistol will be either a SIG-Sauer P220ST in .45 or a HK USP45 Fullsize.

Sorry, bud, but I LOVE 'em....

Quoted: 3. Company policy (you can't tell me they wouldn't make millions selling their guns in the US - they'd probably even sell a few to those who bash them in this thread!) Spooky

This is my biggest gripe with HK. I would love to have another HK battle rifle. They would make a gazillion $ at their US factory pumping these out - especially now. But the freaking Krauts will have none of that.  

I happen to love HK's.  Will you buy me one?

Quoted: While I don't hate HK's, I agree that MOST HK products are overpriced for what you get. For the same $$$ that it would cost you to get a genuine HK91 or HK93(no clones need apply), you could get something of the same quality or better in the same caliber that will do the job just as well or better and have plenty of moolah-yo left for mags & ammo and other accessories. I haven't had much experience with the MP5 and that was several years ago, but will agree that it's pretty much the best subgun out there. It'll be a L-O-N-G time before something else steals it's thunder & replaces it on the throne. I used to own a HK91...I thought it was OK, but there were too many things about the rifle that I didn't like that prompted me to part with it for something else... What I didn't like about the HK91...YMMV... 1)- The bolt didn't lock open on the last shot. Not rocket science, you'd think they could have addressed that issue by now. 2)- A REAL bitch to get good and thoroughly clean. Too time consuming. I finally began resorting to Gumout Carburator Cleaner to get all the carbon out of it. Damn fluted chamber... 3)- Excessive recoil. I'm no wimp when it comes to recoil from a rifle, but that 91's recoil was pretty unpleasant. I'd put 100 or so rounds through it at the range and actually have a bruised shoulder for a couple of days afterward. 4)- The sights. The diopter sights are a great concept, but poorly executed. If your ammo doesn't follow the ballistic curve used in the sights, you're screwed at any range except for the one you have the rifle zeroed for. PLUS! You need a "Special Tool" to make adjustments to the sights. If you loose the "Special Tool", you're out of luck. 5)- The trigger pull was an abomination. VERY HEAVY with too much creep.  It wasn't conducive too decent accuracy at all. The only real answer was a very expensive PSG-1 Trigger Pack. 6)- Mag changes were too awkward. Changing mags took two hands and too much time. Yeah, I know, the AR takes two hands, also. But at least the weapon's designer had something resembling ergonomics on his mind when it came to that aspect of operating the rifle. 7)- Price/Availability of accessories. $400+ for a plain-jane collapsible buttstock? $400+ for a PSG-1 Trigger Pack to get a decent trigger pull? How much for a 1200-meter iron sight(actually a decent unit)? How much for a HK claw scope mount? 8)- Weight. That damn thing was HEAVY, at least that was my perception of it. Perhaps it was because the rifle wasn't balanced very well. Seemed to be front-heavy. BTW- I traded the HK91 for a M1A & $$$. Solved EVERY gripe I had with the HK91 in one fell swoop... I prefer SIG-Sauer pistols, but have had some experience with the HK USP series. They seem to be a pretty well thought-out design. My next pistol will be either a SIG-Sauer P220ST in .45 or a HK USP45 Fullsize.

Excessive recoil?  Mine has the recoil of an AR-15.  It is heavy, though.

Overpriced and absolutley zero interest in the U.S. civilian market for rifles. I also cannot stand the prices they charge for rifle parts. HK PSG1 stockset - $900.

I think Troy covered it best, but here's my quick take on H&K.  Most of this has been covered by others.

1. H&K groupies are often annoying.  You've got 3 main annoying types:  

-The Kid- He has never owned one (maybe when he turns 18 in 3 years and is recruited by the Navy SEALs) but plays Counterstrike all day long so his 'experience' leads him to think HKs are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

-The Elitist-  He owns 10 register HK sears and tons of host guns, and every once in a while opens his safe to polish them.  Once a year you might catch him at the range.  He'll look down at you with your AR or AK, spend an hour tossing 10 rounds down range (full cleaning between each shot), hit centermass twice and head home to clean for half a day and return the rifle to it's 'museum' (safe).

-The Clueless-  Owns a USP and a closet full of HK logo gear.  Shows up at the range with an HK hat, t-shirt, logoed gun case, HK belt bucket and HK undies.  He thinks ALL HKs are superior to all other firearms and won't accept any different opions.

Not all owners fall under one of these categories.

2.  Overpriced and sometimes overrated.  Some HKs are great, others are decent at best, but that never stops HK and the stuck up dealers for asking ridiculous prices.  It's bad enough that the firearms themselves are overpriced, try buying spare parts and mags without taking out a second mortgage.  Handgun mags for $40+???  Rifle mags $50+???  Hell, ideally I'd like to have a minimum of 8 mags per handgun and even more for long guns, that's hard to do with HKs.

3.  Politics and civvy sales.  In the old days HK was good to the civvy market.  Look at all the HK91,93,94s, etc. that came into the market before the import bans.  Now you're lucky to get anything but an overpriced plastic turd.  Sure Colt and others are just as bad, but that's not a good excuse.  In their defense, the BS US laws have given them a hard time.  Those poor Krauts (or whatever Eurotrash nation owns them this afternoon) probably can't figure out what the hell is going on.  "Do zee Amerikans vant zeir guns or not???  Ich haven't zeen zo many gun laws zince Heir Hilter was in power..."

4.  Attitude, see above.  HK thinks they are too good for civvies.  Some of it has to do with laws, but some of it is pure arrogance.  This also is reflected by some owners, see #1.


Those are the big reasons that HK pisses me off nowadays.

Obviously (looking at my screen name) I used to be a huge fan.  Then I grew up and tried other things.  I've owned almost every HK semi made, but over the years I've ditched most of them in favor of something better or at least as good but cheaper.  I miss a few good once like my P7M10, but things like the HK93 I will never go back to.

And while I still enjoy the old stuff, don't like the new stuff.  
USP are good but nothing special so they should cost more than a Glock(shudder) or a Sig.  
UMP/USC and G36/SL8/XM-8 don't float my boat at all.

Quoted: 1)- The bolt didn't lock open on the last shot. Not rocket science, you'd think they could have addressed that issue by now. Not a huge deal to me, but ARs have spoiled me so I would prefer the option 2)- A REAL bitch to get good and thoroughly clean. Too time consuming. I finally began resorting to Gumout Carburator Cleaner to get all the carbon out of it. Damn fluted chamber... 5)- The trigger pull was an abomination. VERY HEAVY with too much creep.  It wasn't conducive too decent accuracy at all. The only real answer was a very expensive PSG-1 Trigger Pack. 7)- Price/Availability of accessories. $400+ for a plain-jane collapsible buttstock? $400+ for a PSG-1 Trigger Pack to get a decent trigger pull? How much for a 1200-meter iron sight(actually a decent unit)? How much for a HK claw scope mount? 8)- Weight. That damn thing was HEAVY, at least that was my perception of it. Perhaps it was because the rifle wasn't balanced very well. Seemed to be front-heavy.  Also heavier mags, again I'm spoiled by AR mags

Some great points on the old roller locking guns.  I'd also add that the ergonomics aren't great.

I actually like the diopter sights, but find them way too low on my HK94SBR for my tastes.  Thank god for Aimpoints.

Hada a USP .45, couldn't hit shit with it. Sold it, kept the Glock 21.
HK's are good guns, they just cost too damn much!