Any gun owner that works for the ATF shouldn't be a gun owner.


ETA: My shoestring MG owns page 3.

they've never done you any direct harm but if they knew about you, they WOULD.

We hate the ATF because they will lie,  cheat,   siege,  and kill people to support either non-existent or totally bullshit laws.

And not just enforcing current laws but making shit up like a "shoelace is a machine gun".


That's why we hate them.

Quoted: Any gun owner that works for the ATF shouldn't be a gun owner. ETA: My shoestring MG owns page 3.

Some guy (fadedsun or something like that) on here was an ATF intern.  I'm unsure if he went full time or not.

That brings up an interesting idea; I wonder how many ATF employees are NRA members.

Quoted: they've never done you any direct harm but if they knew about you, they WOULD. We hate the ATF because they will lie,  cheat,   siege,  and kill people to support either non-existent or totally bullshit laws. And not just enforcing current laws but making shit up like a "shoelace is a machine gun". That's why we hate them.

Lots of people bring up the shoelace letter.  I believe there was a retraction, and no one was ever prosecuted or harassed (as far as I know).  

Technically, the letter was the result of a gun owner trolling the ATF.

So you don't so much have a question then, you just intend to argue infinitely.   Got it.

Quoted: So you don't so much have a question then, you just intend to argue infinitely.   Got it.

I apologize, I don't intend to argue, but rather to discuss (hence the name of this forum).  If I came off argumentative, I regret it, and I'm sorry.

I'll try to be more careful in my wording from now on.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does the highway patrol go and ask your family (or if they arn't home your neighbors) what you are doing driving when you go out on the highway? Why should the ATF harass your family if you go to a gunshow? I've gone to many, many gun shows, and the ATF has never harassed my family. They tend to leave alone the people wearing the same jackets they do..... ETA: Without putting a state location in your profile, we can't tell if you're from Virginia, either. [casablanca] What nationality are you? I'm a drunkard. [/casablanca] But seriously, Knoxville, TN if it'll put your mind at ease.  I don't work for any government agency.  I believe smaller government starts with me.

Just a joke on the first part; the second part was that VA was where they were doing the stuff clement mentioned, so you may not have been in the loop on it.

Quoted: Quoted: Any gun owner that works for the ATF shouldn't be a gun owner. ETA: My shoestring MG owns page 3. Some guy (fadedsun or something like that) on here was an ATF intern.  I'm unsure if he went full time or not. That brings up an interesting idea; I wonder how many ATF employees are NRA members.

Probably fewer (in absolute numbers or percentagewise) than are JPFO members.

(not a dig at NRA; just a comment on the difference in anti-ATF literature that they put out)

Quoted: Quoted: Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF? Ummmm...isn't that enough?

It should be.  Too bad there is even more reason to hate this blatantly unConstitutional band of government criminals. Ask Vickie Weaver or a Branch Davidian for more details...

What's even worse is that those are only TWO examples in a long litany of victims...

Oh I guess it is because they are murderers

.

Unconstitutional organization. Illegal Practices.

Quoted: Quoted: Let's take another example though.  People who like to modify their engines to get really fast cars.  They probably dislike their state highway patrol, but they don't seem to have the near religious fervor against the highway patrol as gunowners have for the ATF. Is this because of a negative "perception" alone?   I mean, truthfully, is the ATF any better or worse than any other agency?  Do other agencies tend to "make things up as the go along"? I really don't know, b/c I don't have much experience dealing with anything like that. The highway patrol doesn't use excessive ammounts of CS gas to burn your family alive and shoot you for having something that over performs. Its not perception, its track record.

The Highway Patrol also won't pull you over when you're obeying the speed limit, then go through your car and charge you with multiple felonies because you modified your engine for performance (constructive intent to beak the law - future possible crime). The Highway Patrol waits until you actually break the law before charging you.

Quoted: Quoted: So you don't so much have a question then, you just intend to argue infinitely.   Got it. I apologize, I don't intend to argue, but rather to discuss (hence the name of this forum).  If I came off argumentative, I regret it, and I'm sorry. I'll try to be more careful in my wording from now on.

You can word it how you like, I'm not your dad .  It sure comes off to me as less of a discussion and more of a way to continually assert your point.  

Nobody likes an IRS audit.  Nobody wants the FBI in their business.  However the ATF has a strong reputation as an agency of deciding that a molehill is a mountain and then setting about making it thus.  The FBI and IRS don't get the kind of whimsical rule-making authority that the ATF has.  I don't recall the FBI writing memos that became binding in regards to legal issues.  If you will not see the difference then this discussion is moot.

Quoted: they've never done you any direct harm but if they knew about you, they WOULD. We hate the ATF because they will lie,  cheat,   siege,  and kill people to support either non-existent or totally bullshit laws. And not just enforcing current laws but making shit up like a "shoelace is a machine gun". That's why we hate them.

http://www.thegangmovie.com/

Yep...

Quoted: Quoted: Any gun owner that works for the ATF shouldn't be a gun owner. ETA: My shoestring MG owns page 3. Some guy (fadedsun or something like that) on here was an ATF intern.  I'm unsure if he went full time or not. That brings up an interesting idea; I wonder how many ATF employees are NRA members.

I thought about trying to intern for them.  Might be interesting to see how the bastards operate.

Just to set the record straight:

Someone mentioned the Weaver murder/execution/manslaughter/whatever you want to call it.

I just looked it up, and Horiuchi was an FBI agent, right?  Not ATF.  The guy who shot Mrs. Weaver wasn't an ATF agent.

Quoted: Just to set the record straight: Someone mentioned the Weaver murder/execution/manslaughter/whatever you want to call it. I just looked it up, and Horiuchi was an FBI agent, right?  Not ATF.  The guy who shot Mrs. Weaver wasn't an ATF agent.

It was an ATF sting after Randy refused to play informant for them. The FBI was providing the "hired muscle" for that particular "op". Doesn't exactly speak well of them either...

I am not a big fan of any of the alphabet agencies, as they're ALL OUT TO GET US!

Senate Close To Confirming A Ted Kennedy-style Liberal To BATFE
-- Contact your Senator immediately

Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408

www.gunowners.org/

Tuesday, December 4, 2007


"We'll miss him in Massachusetts, but he'll be a strong leader at
ATF, and I look forward to working with him on key issues on gun
control." -- Senator Ted Kennedy


The above quote highlights all you need to know about Michael
Sullivan, the acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives.

Sullivan was, unfortunately, nominated by President Bush to
permanently take over ATF this year. Right before Thanksgiving, the
Senate "hotlined" his name for unanimous consent approval.
(Hotlining is a parliamentary maneuver which allows non-controversial
bills or nominations to be unanimously approved by the Senate without
debate or a vote.)

GOA immediately sent a letter to each Senator's office, urging them
to oppose the Sullivan nomination. Thankfully, one senator
subsequently objected to Sullivan's approval, and his nomination was
put on hold. However, that legislator is now coming under fire from
other senators, who are asking him to withdraw his "hold."

That's why it's important for gun owners to contact their two
Senators. Under Sullivan's leadership, the ATF has gone berserk.
Sure, the problems at ATF didn't originate with him, but Sullivan has
certainly done nothing to put out the fire.

While discussing the agency's 2008 appropriations bill, the House
Commerce & Justice committee issued a stinging rebuke for the ATF:

"The committee has heard reports that ATF has pursued license
revocations and denials against firearms dealers based on violations
that consist largely of recordkeeping errors of various types that
are unlikely to impede tracing investigations or prosecution of
individuals who use firearms in crime. The Committee encourages ATF
to consider lesser gradation of sanctions for recordkeeping errors."
[House Committee report on HR 3093.]

The strategy, that was begun long before Sullivan arrived, has
continued unabated under his tutelage. ATF inspectors try to find
any violation they can, usually focusing on clerical mistakes.

A family gun business that had been in operation for years in
Baltimore, Maryland was attacked because of the "wanton, repeated
crime" of abbreviating Baltimore as "Blto" on the teeny,
tiny spaces
on the 4473 forms.

Now, the agency has turned their collective guns on Red's Trading
Post in Idaho, among others. Even though one ATF agent told the
manager that Red's was "one of the best small gun shops" he'd ever
seen, the ATF has continued its assault on this gun shop (which has
been in business for decades) for minor clerical mistakes and failing
to put up a poster.

According to WorldNetDaily, one judge who is familiar with the Red's
Trading Post case found "the ATF speaks of violations found during
the inspections of 2000 and 2005, but fails to reveal that additional
investigations in 2001 and 2007 revealed no violations or problems."
The judge also noted the ATF was exaggerating the situation by
"double counting" some violations.

The agency holds a continuing animus against gun owners and dealers.
Inspectors have no handbook under which to operate, and the absence
of such written procedures allows them to be arbitrary and
capricious.

Americans don't need an anti-gun cop from Massachusetts as the
Director of the federal gun police.

CONTACT: Please ask your Senators to oppose anti-gunner Michael
Sullivan as the Director of the BATFE. You can use the pre-written
message below and send it as an e-mail by visiting the GOA
Legislative Action Center at http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm
(where phone and fax numbers are also available).

Quoted: Quoted: Just to set the record straight: Someone mentioned the Weaver murder/execution/manslaughter/whatever you want to call it. I just looked it up, and Horiuchi was an FBI agent, right?  Not ATF.  The guy who shot Mrs. Weaver wasn't an ATF agent. It was an ATF sting after Randy refused to play informant for them. The FBI was providing the "hired muscle" for that particular "op". Doesn't exactly speak well of them either...

That's really what I'm starting to believe.  They're all equally bad or evil or negligent or whatever.  It just seems that the ATF takes all the heat while the others get away from the harsh reputation.

Quoted: Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF? I find it hard to believe that they harass more people than other agencies like the IRS, EPA, OSHA, etc. and all they really do is make you fill out a form each time you buy a firearm.  Yet, it seems that on gun boards the ATF is some sort of super-villain.  Why do they have a reputation worse than any other  .gov entity? I've always despised them, but lately I'm questioning my own hatred.  They've really never done me any direct harm.  Certainly, they've never cost me more than the IRS. Have any of you personally been harassed by the ATF?  Every so often, a thread pops up about someone getting an FFL, and someone mentions how "professional" or "courteous" the agents they met are.  Is this normal?

Let me know how ya feel if they ever try to fuck you over-I bet you'll learn to hate them real quick.

Quoted: Quoted: ...The problem comes in when an agency is perceived as so bent on justifying its own purpose, that they bend and construe situations to create crimes where none was intended.  No one likes the idea of the cops being " out to get " anyone.  Few mind the idea of the cops detecting and prosecuting crime... Let's take another example though.  People who like to modify their engines to get really fast cars.  They probably dislike their state highway patrol, but they don't seem to have the near religious fervor against the highway patrol as gunowners have for the ATF. Is this because of a negative "perception" alone?   I mean, truthfully, is the ATF any better or worse than any other agency?  Do other agencies tend to "make things up as the go along"? I really don't know, b/c I don't have much experience dealing with any agencies including the ATF.

State police generally speaking don't shoot your family/dogs/burn your house down/send you to Leavenworth for chickenshit?

State police generally don't need to fabricate rules or evidence to nail you if you like speeding?

They enforce the letter of the law not "The Intent of the Law."

For my next topic, Why do parents hate pedophiles?

Quoted: Just to set the record straight: Someone mentioned the Weaver murder/execution/manslaughter/whatever you want to call it. I just looked it up, and Horiuchi was an FBI agent, right?  Not ATF.  The guy who shot Mrs. Weaver wasn't an ATF agent.

It was a joint op, with ATF, FBI, federal Marshalls, and the Idaho State Police.  Declassified records show that the govt. spent more money on gathering intel on the Weaver family at Ruby Ridge than it did a year later on gathering intel on Haiti before sending 2000 troops there to restore to power Jean Bertrand Aristide, our puppet government the democratically elected leader of that country.

Anyway, regardless, the charges Weaver was facing were ATF charges.  Weaver claims to have supplied shotguns to an undercover cop with barrels that were of legal length.  He claims that he told the agent that if he (the agent/supposed white supremacist biker) wanted to saw off the barrels and make them shorter than 18 inches, that wasn't his (Weaver's) problem.  ATF claims that Weaver shortened the barrels himself and delivered them to the undercover cop in an illegal configuration.

Anyway, the sale of two shotguns which may or may not have been illegal at the time of their sale was the jurisdictional hook needed to bring in every alphabet soup agency in the state and federal government, resulting in the deaths of Weaver's 14 year old son and wife.

If the ATF had left him alone, none of us would have ever heard of the guy.  He wasn't bothering anybody, in fact he was trying to live "off the grid" as much as possible.  His biggest mistake was attending the Aryan Nations rally where he was initially approached by the undercover.  Everyone knows half the people at those rallies are LEOs trolling for troublemakers.  

Quoted: Senate Close To Confirming A Ted Kennedy-style Liberal To BATFE -- Contact your Senator immediately Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert <snip>

Actually it was that thread which got me to thinking about the whole situation; and since they cite World Net Daily and use phrases like "teeny, tiny" I wasn't sure I'd believe them.  Besides, they badmouth Fred Thompson on their site, but some arfcommers said all of their complaints have been rebuked, so I'm not sure if I trust GOA or not.

Hence, my question here.

Quoted: Quoted: Senate Close To Confirming A Ted Kennedy-style Liberal To BATFE -- Contact your Senator immediately Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert <snip> Actually it was that thread which got me to thinking about the whole situation; and since they cite World Net Daily and use phrases like "teeny, tiny" I wasn't sure I'd believe them.  Besides, they badmouth Fred Thompson on their site, but some arfcommers said all of their complaints have been rebuked, so I'm not sure if I trust GOA or not. Hence, my question here.

You can look up MANY stories of ATF abuses.

Quoted: For my next topic, Why do parents hate pedophiles?

Pedos want to take away their babies, just like BATFE wants to take away mine?

my personal favorite assesment of the ATF's professionalism:

"we [congress] do not recognize their expertise...because we cannot discern it."

the ATF is burdened with a gross lack of oversight and transparency.  yes, i said burdened, because this lack forces them into the precarious position of making judgement calls in far too many situations.  no written procedures for weapons testing?  how absurd.  no clearly codified protocols for enforcement strategies?  ridiculous.  no congressionally-mandated parameters for operations? insane.  

so we have a supremely powerful governmental organ that has the ability to create laws ex nihilo, and then set about enforcing them with unreined vigor.  this is not just a violation of the seperation of powers, it is exactly how eastern bloc secret police organizations operated during the cold war.

am i suggesting that every ATF agent is a closet KGB wannabe?  of course not.  as has been stated many times, the rank-and-file agents seem to be well-intentioned people.  yet the agenda gets cloudy as one looks higher in the organization, and the nuremburg defense should not be acceptable in american society.

one needs look no further than the fact that the preparations for the (supremely unneccesary) waco raid included a massive media operations center, but absolutely no medical provisions.

i have seen absolutely nothing to convince me that their agenda has changed.

Quoted: They enforce the letter of the law not "The Intent of the Law."

And where there is neither intent nor Law, they just make it up as they go along...

Quoted: .....they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then.........

You're joking right?

The BATF are political hacks!

Remember it was ATF that started the Waco debacle.

The ATF are gestapo wannabes.

I met two ATF agents. Dumb and dumber.

I dont have any issues with them. We have several agents that work daily with us in order to help us with robbery suspects/firearm violations/etc.



Most here hate them because it is the in vogue thing to do on gun boards

Yeah but honestly dude, underneath your name it says "enforcer for da man".  I mean, what other opinion should we expect? LOL

Quoted: Yeah but honestly dude, underneath your name it says "enforcer for da man".  I mean, what other opinion should we expect? LOL

I put that there last week to bust the balls of some of the more crybaby-ish members of GD.

I've never had any problems out of the ones I've met. Of course I've never dealt with them on a gun owner to agent level only at work which is a little more equal footing even though I'm not an officer.

They have all been really friendly and nice folks and generally only showed disdain towards the shitbirds who had the guns which I think most gun owners feel the same way. BUT the stuff you read about them in other parts of country sure puts a bad taste in your mouth about them.

ATF bases its behavior on the mistaken belief that those attempting to comply with gun laws, rules, and regulations are just as culpable as real criminals.

 Don't take this as being the least bit supportive of the ATF.

 When I reveived my initial visit for my ffl, here's what I was wearing.

 The ATF agent, laughed, and asked where she could get one.

Could always be worse fellas, at least they haven't changed their name to ATFP to include pie.

Quoted: Could always be worse fellas, at least they haven't changed their name to ATFP to include pie.

Even they know that would be the last straw

ATF makes it up as they go.   They have the character of their leader.  The key ATF item on the to-do list for all gunnies right now should be to write your senators and tell them to nix Bush's appointment of Michael Sullivan to head the agency.  He is as big a 2A enemy as it gets.  They call him a "law and order Republican" whatever that is, but telling is that Ted Kennedy and John Kerry are big supporters of him.

The Senate Judiciary Comitte approved him on a voice vote to be sure that the voting record was not available to be used against them.  The committee is flush with libtards whose vote on this would be obvious.

Time to ring the bell on the incoming mail gong at senate.gov

Quoted: I think it has alot to do with many instances of them seeming to make up the rules as they go along without clear cut written guidelines as to what is and is not permitted.  This includes instances of something being approved one day and disapproved the next.  Most people I think would not mind if the rules were enforced fairly with a reasonable expectation that if they follow the rules, then they will be left alone.

A-Fricken-Men.

The problem comes in when an agency is perceived as so bent on justifying its own purpose, that they bend and construe situations to create crimes where none was intended.  No one likes the idea of the cops being " out to get " anyone.  Few mind the idea of the cops detecting and prosecuting crime.   The ATF from the 70s on, developed a reputation, whether deserved or not, of being out to get gun owners for technical violations where no violation of law was intended.

+1. Well phrased.

Quoted: ATF bases its behavior on the mistaken belief that those attempting to comply with gun laws, rules, and regulations are just as culpable as real criminals.

It's the same mentality that caused the VPC to charge "the gun industry easily found ways around the law" when they were actually just complying with it.

I know why I hate them, and im sure others feel the same way I do for numerous reasons. They are unconstitutional, they "tax" us for ridiculous things. (I mean why the hell does a "gun muffler" require a $200 tax and federal background check, it isn't even a firearm, so shouldn't be in their scope of power), and because it is a thuggish government organization. No other organization I know of has all three powers in it. It has legislative power to make laws they want, judicial power to interpret them the way they want, and executive power to go enforce their unjust policies. Not only that, they can change their policy on anything whenever they feel it is necessary. They are essentially a rogue organization in our government, which is allowed to make their own rules. How is a shoestring a machine gun? How can any empty hole in a receiver be a machine gun? How can a stock for a .22(Atkins) be a machine gun? How does a vertical grip turn a handgun into an AOW? How is a 17.75" barreled shotgun any more a threat to society than an 18" barreled one? And finally how many nfa firearms do you hear of being used in crime? I rest my case. I understand we have laws and government for a reason, but I believe this is excessive. Unfortunitly all we can do is elect politicians that we think will not make things worse, and remember our laws may be crazy, but we are still the best country in the world when it comes to civilian gun ownership.

Have them show up at your house at 3am.....then come tell us how YOU feel.  Mom, dad and 3 children under 10 standing outside in the snow.....yeah, tell us you love them.


All because they wanted to check the records of all 22cal sold in the past 3 years, cause someone found a hole in the back of their house.....2 months earlier.

Dad sent all his records in, closed up shop after that.  Said it wasn't worth the harassment. I'd say he was thinking correctly.

Fuckers can all rot in hell. The ones that don't rot, well, I hope the squirm long enough to remember how they got there.

(go ahead, ask me how I really feel)

Quoted: Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?

Aside from answering your own question with the first sentence...

Here's my take:  While I personally have never had anything bad happen to me via the BATFE, the frequency of incompetence and harassment of gun owners and dealers (and attempts at covering it up) are simply mind-numbing.  Am I to pretend that what I read, see and hear about them in the news DIDN'T happen?  Did you know that this agency originally only dealt with enforcement of alcohol laws?  The only reason this agency got into gun laws was because the market price of sugar skyrocketed to the point of putting the tax dodging bootleggers out of business, which meant this agency's existence would be hard to justify.

While this agency may not be the epitome of what happens when you have incompetent people with power, they're a damn good example of it.

Because.

Alcoho = legal  Tobacco = legal Firearms = legal

Why do they exist?