Quoted: Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG  service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

+1

Quoted: The fuck if I am backing you up jackass....... Fuck off asshole.

Try being civil, if thats possible.

Quoted: No, not a vote-call...i'll excercise my right to privacy.  but let me guess,  someone who showed up for work everyday versus someone who didn't/couldn't and should have.  I voted for him the first time around, just where was he and what was he doing when he didn't report in?  rumor has it that was due to his admitted drinking problem in his past.  any comments?

Do you understand how reserve drill points work or what a RIF is?  Or how the NG/reserves are allowed in some cases to get out of the service if work, missionary service or school interferes?

That text is from Joe Baughers web site on the F-102.
If you found it anywhere else it was lifted from it.
It's one of my sources as listed in a previous post.
home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f102_1.html

Quoted: More on F-102's in Vietnam from a website. On a side note , 2 years ago some hunters found an intact 102 canopy from an ejection / crash in N. Idaho and brought it in and gave it too our Unit thinking it was from one of our 102's but it was from a Montana? ANG plane. They researched the tail # on the canopy and the pilot was still alive and lived in W. Washinton. Except for the plexiglass being hazed and sheared hinge pins it was in excellent shape... [ A few Pacific-based squadrons got F-102s, the first being the 16th FIS based at Naha AFB on Okinawa which re-equipped in March of 1959.  It was in the Pacific theatre that the F-102 was to achieve its only taste of combat. Aircraft from the 590th Fighter Interceptor Squadron were transferred to Tan Son Nhut AFB near Saigon in South Vietnam in March of 1962 to provide air defense against the unlikely event that North Vietnamese aircraft would attack the South. F-102As continued to be based there and in Thailand throughout much of the Vietnam war. F-102As stood alert at Bien Hoa and Da Nang in Sout Vietnam and at Udorn and Don Muang in Thailand. The F-102A was finally withdrawn from Southeast Asia in December of 1969. The F-102A established an excellent safety record in Vietnam. In almost ten years of flying air defense and a few combat air patrols for SAC B-52s, only 15 F-102As were lost. Although a few missions were flown over North Vietnam, the Southeast Asia-stationed F-102As are not thought to have actually engaged in air-to-air combat. However, one of my references has an F-102A of the 509th FIS being lost to an air-to-air missile fired by a MiG-21 while flying a CAP over Route Package IV on February 3, 1968. Two F-102As were lost to AAA/small arms fire and four were destroyed on the ground by the Viet Cong and eight were lost in operational accidents. Strange as it may seem, the F-102A actually did fly some close-support missions over the South, even though the aircraft was totally unsuited for this role. These operations started in 1965 at Tan Son Nhut using the 405 FW alert detachment. Operating under the code-name "Project Stovepipe", they used their heat sinking Falcon missiles to lock onto heat sources over the Ho Chi Minh trail at night, often Viet Cong campfires. This was more of a harassment tactic than it was serious assault. They would even fire their radar-guided missiles if their radars managed to lock onto something. The pilots were never sure if they actually hit anything, but they would sometimes observe secondary explosions. ]

STLRN, good point. how does it work out that active service in war-time is equated in reserve status in war-time?  Who showed up for work everyday?  

Quoted: STLRN, good point. how does it work out that active service in war-time is equated in reserve status in war-time?  Who showed up for work everyday?

Well, that is an interesting question.  I personally thinking that being in the guard or reserves is honorable, that if your unit is not called up its not your fault that you didn't go to war.  Just like the majority of service members who didn't support SEA operations.  They served and its not their fault they didn't go.

However you can ask the same question about the dem candidate, he was a USNR officer meaning that after his couple of years of active time he was required to drill.  Which all indicators currently point to the fact he never attended drills.

I'm in the in-active reserve and being recalled up for involutary duty, AND I WILL DEPLOY! So, what's your point?  Mine is I'm going and records to back it up.  No one should be exempt (except for medical reasons).  To say that my son is active USMC, my daughter is USN, and I'm going to the sandbox again is my reasons for saying that both records should be fully released..

Quoted: The fuck if I am backing you up jackass. Not one fucking stateside F-102 squadron went to Vietnam.

Sheesh.  Chill out man.  Nothing tcsd has posted here is factually wrong or intellectually dishonest.  GWB isn't a saint, he has his faults.

Kerry served in Vietnam.  GWB didn't.  We all know that.  Bush probably used his connections to avoid service in Vietnam.  So did Clinton.  

The reason why this gets so much attention is the Democrats like to play dirty and are trying to undermine Bush's and the Republicans credibility with one of his core constituencies, namely, vets.  This is where all the Chickenhawk stuff comes from.

The Dems want their cake and want to eat it too.  When Bill Clinton's actions around Vietnam came up, they said "it's time to move on", and now that they have a supposed real-life war hero running for President vs someone (Bush) who has a much better record than Clinton vis-a-vis military service, they think it's time for them to refight the relevance battle regarding Vietnam that 8 and 12 years ago they desperately (and successfully) fought to convince Americans it didn't matter.

For the Kerry supporters, the reason why Kerry's vietnam service record is such an issue is because KERRY and his supporters chose to make it an issue.  The same way Bush's foreign policy credentials (his administration's presumed strength) are being attacked, Kerry's opponents are going after his apparent strength (and apparent is all it is).

The good news for Bush backers (and I'm one) is all this shit is the same stuff they've been doing since the first time Bush ran for governor.  It's old news.  It came up in the 2000 election too.  

Quoted: I'm in the in-active reserve and being recalled up for involutary duty, AND I WILL DEPLOY! So, what's your point?  Mine is I'm going and records to back it up.  No one should be exempt (except for medical reasons).  To say that my son is active USMC, my daughter is USN, and I'm going to the sandbox again is my reasons for saying that both records should be fully released..

Sure release all of them, which actually has happen with one.  However, that will not satisfy most of those in the media and those who are predisposed to dislike the president.

brasspile, not signed up for college, honerably discharged from acive duty 10/03/91..i served, what about you?  in case you didn't see, this is my second time in deployment to the AO!  have you been there once, have you or are you smokin'?

Quoted: brasspile, not signed up for college, honerably discharged from acive duty 10/03/91..i served, what about you?  in case you didn't see, this is my second time in deployment to the AO!  have you been there once, have you or are you smokin'?

How did you stay in the IIR since 91? unless your retired from the military.  Or did you as many reservists/NG types do come and go from the RC and remain in the IRR, meaning you could be called up?

By the way, I am an AD USMC officer was in ODS, OIF and now getting ready to go again.   So yes I have been there and I know how the system works.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG  service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went. Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.   Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Wrong asshat. 14 were shot down over Vietnam.

www.wordiq.com/definition/Aircraft_losses_of_the_Vietnam_War

Or maybe they just didn't know how to navigate and made a wrong turn somewhere over their daddies ranch.

RJ

Kerry made mention of his reason for volunteering for swiftboats in his first book. It was because they weren't likely to see combat (but, because they operated within the borders of VN qualified for "combat" status). It was after he began his stint with them that they started patrolling inland, and actually started getting into the shit.

As much as the Dems try to paint GWB with the same "rich and privledged reservist" brush they used to paint Dan Quayle (remember that finger point festival?), let's face it. Most of us would use our family's connections (if we had them) to get an assignment that was better than simply getting a "US" designation and getting handed a gun and being told "march there... shoot that way" with no choice in the matter. Volunteers can pick an MOS... draftees get to become what Uncle needs at the moment.

The media downplays Kerry's wealth and family connections, in order to continue his rep as an "ordinary man of the people". Unfortunately, most "ordinary guys" I know don't have six houses with more than 2000 square ft. each, and all the private $$ reserves that this guy has.

Most of the "ordinary guys" don't have the family connections he has.

Most of the "ordinary guys" that served in VN finished their tour, unless they were too shot up to keep fighting, and wound up in hospital or stateside d/t injuries for the duration of their enlistment.

Most of the "ordinary guys" that served in VN didn't meet in Paris after their tour with the NVN government.

Most of the "ordinary guys" that served in VN didn't testify about atrocities - testimony that was later quoted to POW's while trying to beat "confessions" for "wrongs against the righful government of Viet Nam" out of them.

I have no problem with the fact the Kerry went to Nam. I don't even have a problem with his getting a purple heart. Many of us have heard the war story about a scar from a drunken fight becoming PH material... usually as an additional, or as a primary for an aide or "in-the-rear-with-the-gear" guy who winds up wrong place-wrong time. It happens.

I, like many others, have more of a problem with his dishonorable behavior after his return. IMHO his service was part of a "life plan" that was geared towards this very election. When the "war hero" title proved unpopular in the early 70's, he adopted an anti-war platform to get elected.

I seriously doubt that this man (Kerry) has done anything for the past 35 years without first considering the effect it would have on his electability.

Brasspile, all you're gonna get is the sound of crickets chirping...

Quoted: Unit? Quoted: brasspile, not signed up for college, honerably discharged from acive duty 10/03/91..i served, what about you?  in case you didn't see, this is my second time in deployment to the AO!  have you been there once, have you or are you smokin'?

Quoted: Quoted: brasspile, not signed up for college, honerably discharged from acive duty 10/03/91..i served, what about you?  in case you didn't see, this is my second time in deployment to the AO!  have you been there once, have you or are you smokin'? How did you stay in the IIR since 91? unless your retired from the military.  Or did you as many reservists/NG types do come and go from the RC and remain in the IRR, meaning you could be called up? By the way, I am an AD USMC officer was in ODS, OIF and now getting ready to go again.   So yes I have been there and I know how the system works.

Inquiring minds want to know....

Quoted: No, not a vote-call...i'll excercise my right to privacy.  but let me guess,  someone who showed up for work everyday versus someone who didn't/couldn't and should have.  I voted for him the first time around, just where was he and what was he doing when he didn't report in?  rumor has it that was due to his admitted drinking problem in his past.  any comments?

Yeah, the record is pretty clear that he was in another state doing campaign work, quit making up "rumors" they don't count if you start them.

Quoted: brasspile, not signed up for college, honerably discharged from acive duty 10/03/91..i served, what about you?  in case you didn't see, this is my second time in deployment to the AO!  have you been there once, have you or are you smokin'?

Wow, been in the IRR for 13 years?!?!?!?!

That leaves 3 possibilities.... you either have been in and out of the active reserves not making your mind up if you want to serve, you reenlisted for the IRR to extend you obligation (in which case I would hardly classify your recall as "involuntary" when you voluntarily extended (does the USMC allow IRR extensions?), or you are an officer (That I HIGHLY doubt, since you seem to think that Kerrys service as an officer, including using the first excuse possible to run away abandoning his men, was honorable).

Or the fourth possibility............. your full of it.

Just how hard is it (or was it) to get into the National Guard?  
Did you really need high-powered connections to enlist in the NG during the Viet Nam War?
Just asking...

Quoted: Just how hard is it (or was it) to get into the National Guard?   Did you really need high-powered connections to enlist in the NG during the Viet Nam War? Just asking...

On average there was a two year wait during Vietnam. UNLESS you had a rich and powerfull family to pull stings.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just how hard is it (or was it) to get into the National Guard?   Did you really need high-powered connections to enlist in the NG during the Viet Nam War? Just asking... On average there was a two year wait during Vietnam. UNLESS you had a rich and powerfull family to pull stings. Really?  Please provide a source that indicates that Air National Guard waiting period was two years.  I'd like to see that.

Are you actually going to try and tell me this is news to you? Were you alive during Vietnam? I find it VERY hard to believe you are not aware of this. Feel free to look it up for yourself. This is no secret, and VERY easy to verify.

Quoted: Are you actually going to try and tell me this is news to you? Were you alive during Vietnam? I find it VERY hard to believe you are not aware of this. Feel free to look it up for yourself. This is no secret, and VERY easy to verify.

Actually the only time I have ever heard that was in regard to Dan Qualye and GW Bush and in each case it was stated by a somewhat partisan as a use of criticism.  

I would actually like to see a non-biased source who can authenticate that, since it defies logic when it comes to military recruitment and how recruitment numbers are forecasted

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just how hard is it (or was it) to get into the National Guard?   Did you really need high-powered connections to enlist in the NG during the Viet Nam War? Just asking... On average there was a two year wait during Vietnam. UNLESS you had a rich and powerfull family to pull stings. Really?  Please provide a source that indicates that Air National Guard waiting period was two years.  I'd like to see that. Are you actually going to try and tell me this is news to you? Were you alive during Vietnam? I find it VERY hard to believe you are not aware of this. Feel free to look it up for yourself. This is no secret, and VERY easy to verify. I don't have to prove it.  I didn't make the statement.  You did.  Provide the information if it is so easy to prove.   Please provide a source that indicates that Air National Guard waiting period was two years.  I'm waiting.

I notice you did not answer any of my questions. Are you trying to tell me this is news to you? Becuase I say BS if you are. Are you also trying to tell me you can't do a one minute Yahoo search?

GOD DAMN IT, will you people quit posting BULLSHIT!!
President Bush's squadron, the 111th Intercepter Squadron or his wing, the 147th Fighter Wing  DID NOT GO TO VIETNAM!
God Damn, I fucking posted about this WITH REFERENCES ON PAGE FUCKING ONE!!

ONLY TWO F-102 SQUADRONS WENT TO VIETNAM, AND NEITHER OF THEM WERE FROM A CONUS F-102 SQUADRON.
FURTHER, THOSE TWO SQUADRONS CAME FROM THE ACTIVE DUTY AIR FORCE, NOT THE GOD DAMN FUCKING AIR NATIONAL GUARD!!

82nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Naha AB, Okinawa, 1966 to May 1971. In 1968, deployed F-102As to Bien Hoa AB, Vietnam. Inactivated at Naha May 1971, last PACAF active-duty PACAF squadron.

509th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Clark AB, Philippines and Tan Son Nhut AB, Vietnam, 1959 to 1970. In 1968, detachments were sent to Da Nang AB and Tan Son Nhut AB in Vietnam and to Don Muang in Thailand. Inactivated July 1970.

Quoted: At the time that GWB joined that unit, it was in fact deployed in Vietnam.  At that time he would have had no way of knowing that it would be redeployed to costal patrol and interdiction prior to his completion of flight training.  It could therefore be logically concluded that he voluntarily joined a unit with the belief and knowledge that Vietnam service was a real liklihood.  Funny thing about the military, it seems that they tend to send young officers where ever it wants them to be.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just how hard is it (or was it) to get into the National Guard?   Did you really need high-powered connections to enlist in the NG during the Viet Nam War? Just asking... On average there was a two year wait during Vietnam. UNLESS you had a rich and powerfull family to pull stings. Really?  Please provide a source that indicates that Air National Guard waiting period was two years.  I'd like to see that. Are you actually going to try and tell me this is news to you? Were you alive during Vietnam? I find it VERY hard to believe you are not aware of this. Feel free to look it up for yourself. This is no secret, and VERY easy to verify. I don't have to prove it.  I didn't make the statement.  You did.  Provide the information if it is so easy to prove.   Please provide a source that indicates that Air National Guard waiting period was two years.  I'm waiting. I notice you did not answer any of my questions. Are you trying to tell me this is news to you? Becuase I say BS if you are. Are you also trying to tell me you can't do a one minute Yahoo search? You made a statement that you obviously pulled out of your ass.  Put up or shut up.

Please answer the question your trying to avoid.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just how hard is it (or was it) to get into the National Guard?   Did you really need high-powered connections to enlist in the NG during the Viet Nam War? Just asking... On average there was a two year wait during Vietnam. UNLESS you had a rich and powerfull family to pull stings. Really?  Please provide a source that indicates that Air National Guard waiting period was two years.  I'd like to see that. Are you actually going to try and tell me this is news to you? Were you alive during Vietnam? I find it VERY hard to believe you are not aware of this. Feel free to look it up for yourself. This is no secret, and VERY easy to verify. I don't have to prove it.  I didn't make the statement.  You did.  Provide the information if it is so easy to prove.   Please provide a source that indicates that Air National Guard waiting period was two years.  I'm waiting. I notice you did not answer any of my questions. Are you trying to tell me this is news to you? Becuase I say BS if you are. Are you also trying to tell me you can't do a one minute Yahoo search? You made a statement that you obviously pulled out of your ass.  Put up or shut up. Please answer the question your trying to avoid. I didn't make any statements, you did.  Prove your statements or retract them.  Provide the information if it is so easy to prove (these are your words).   Please provide a source that indicates that Air National Guard waiting period was two years.  If this is easy like you said it was you should be able to find a source within minutes and I will apologize and consider you a man of honor.  If you don't provide a source other than: "Ya man, I heard that one time", you are full of crap.

For the second time, would you please answer my question? This is news to you? I think you just want to avoid being caught in a lie. Its easier to avoid the question and let me waste my time looking up and posting links, only to have you flame them without even reading them. I know the game, and you know the truth.

Quoted: For the second time, would you please answer my question? This is news to you? I think you just want to avoid being caught in a lie. Its easier to avoid the question and let me waste my time looking up and posting links, only to have you flame them without even reading them. I know the game, and you know the truth.

Actually your the one who made the statement that he ask for substantiation on, and instead of providing it (which may or may not be easy, the google search I did yielded no answer).  But instead of answer you attempted the standard debating tactic of redirection by telling you opponent, that anyone with have a brain can prove it themselves.

Quoted: Va_Dinger, It's obvious you can't back up your statement.  Why not just admit it.  You made the statement, now follow up with some proof.  Provide some proof to your statement or admit you made it up.  Very easy option here.  This isn't about me.  This is about the statements that you made, that you have been called on.  I don't have to prove anything.  I think you are full of crap.  Prove me wrong.  Or are you too scared to admit you are just full of it?

Why are you avoiding my question?

Regardless of what unit went, did Bush not volunteer to go?
And, BTW, I believe that I read in the Federalist that Kerry first enlisted with a Naval Reserve
unit that he thought would not be activated, and later asked for the patrol boat duty because he thought they were just gonna go up and down the coast.
And go ahead and chew my butt for this if you want, but I'm really sick of Kerry's VN service
being held up as a shield to deflect all criticism . Benedict Arnold was a legitimate American
military hero before he turned.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just how hard is it (or was it) to get into the National Guard?   Did you really need high-powered connections to enlist in the NG during the Viet Nam War? Just asking... On average there was a two year wait during Vietnam. UNLESS you had a rich and powerfull family to pull stings. Here's your statement.  Prove it.

If the NG was such a hot place to be that they needed a two-year waiting list, why did Johnson institute the draft?
Back to the original question, which branch of the military would not welcome a brand new Yale graduate who obviously passed all qualification tests for flying jets?  I can't imagine a recruiting officer telling Bush, "Skeeter tells me you're a good 'ol boy dumb ass who likes BBQ.  Go ahead and take that multi-million dollar jet around the block".  Stuff like that only happens in Michael Moore movies.