Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: and most men would have avoided divorce court if they would have treated their wives with the same love and respect they promised at the beginning of their relationship.  I do not approve of cheating/telling lies on the part of the woman but when men fail to live up to their campaign promises during courtship they're flirting with disaster. Patty that popped right out, a totally vindictive statement.  that's the whole point:  women are forcing men to pay for their hurt feelings.  i know one quite well now:  she feels he needs to pay, and pay big, for her lost years. eta: I have never asked for more than I was entitled from my husbands... and therein lies the scary parts I didn't mean it as vindictive.  I meant it as a warning to married men.  Take a look at how you treat your spouses, maybe they aren't treating you as well as you deserve but the best way to prevent divorce is stepping forward and trying again.  We all get comfortable and we all take advantage from time to time the other but we all can stop and appreciate each other as well. As for what I was entitled.  My first husband left me after 10 years of marriage for another woman.  I had two young children at home, one severely disabled.  I asked for child support and 1/2 his retirement as I paid for every dime of his education and I felt I needed that security when our children go to college. As for my second marriage.  We're still married, though going through a bitter divorce.  I will treat him with love and respect and ask for no more than what I deserve to care for our children.  I have no ill feelings and am not in any way vindictive and have no desire to make him pay for anything.   I was offered alimony from the judge in my first marriage and I turned it down as I did not want my ex husband to be financially burdened so badly that he could not be happy. So when I say I did not ask for anything I wasn't entitled too I meant it.  I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I have worked very hard to be civil and christiain. Patty

How good you treat your wife in 99% of divorce cases means nothing once the papers are filed and the lawyers get involved?

I had reports from three different marriage counselors basically saying my wife was a mental case and I was a great husband and father.

I still caught the telephone pole in the ass.

Quoted: I believe the legal justice system is a lot like the stock market.  You'll find corrections.  In my parents generation a man could marry a woman, dump her with her boat load of kids after cheating and beating her and be held harmless.  She and her children were destined to poverty and social rejection.  Poor wages and sexist work detail. Not to say things are right but there is a correction in the system now. Patty

I don't understand Patty personal situation.  In regards to Patty's situation as represented this comment is 100% correct.  

But I also represent several men who are paying child support to females that committed fraud.  The children in question are NOT theirs and DNA testing prove this FACT and the "system" refuses to correct this situation.

The "system" is 100% screwed up!

Quoted: <snip> I also represent several men who are paying child support to females that committed fraud.  The children in question are NOT theirs and DNA testing prove this FACT and the "system" refuses to correct this situation. The "system" is 100% screwed up!

That kind of situation right there is one reason for so much anger on the part of men.  No recourse when there should be.

Bama, I'm sure your right.  I know men do take it in the shorts.  My brother is with his wife and she too is certified nuts [schizophrenia - multiple personalities the whole nine yards].  I question the attorneys and their personal ethics.  It must be a challenge personally for them to fight these battles and it obviously is financially rewarding.

Anyway, I wish no one other than the best.  Patty

Quoted: This type of attitude and inability to commit to something greater then yourself is EXACTLY why you face a lifetime of hurt and disapointment. Life is risky, no matter what you do.

look, pal: you don't know me OR my circumstances in that.  i bent over backwards to make that (first marriage) work, but there were a few things i stuck to my guns about: NO outside family involvement and NO kids.  that was well known from the beginning.  she became more and more disgruntled about it till the bitter end, and it was bitter.

I personally think that the person with the shittitest lawyer is the one who gets screwed.
I PERSONALLY know at least 4 divorces where the women got screwed.

First one, hubby started doing drugs, they split, he never paid a freaking DIME's worth of child support. Three kids with a mom who was unskilled at anything except manufacturing and such.

Same with second one except there was one kid and a better skilled mom.

Third, hubby was cheating on wife for years. They had 2 boys and hubby owned his own business.
A business that he did not pay adequate taxes on.
IRS attached her pay (as the business taxes were filed as an addendum to their personal taxes) until the debt was paid....during which time she discovered the affair. When the IRS was getting greedy, they had put the family home (valued at half a mil) in the eldest son's name...son threw dad out and mom walked (both kids were adults) leaving everything in the home.
She started all over again alone with NOTHING from the original marriage except DEBT that her rat bastard hubby had created.

Fourth, friend was married to a vocally abusive hubby.
Who was a closet gay man.
She had an affair.
(not the best choice, I'll admit)
The divorce got UGLY and the kid was bounced every 2 days from him to her (most messed up custody agreement EVER) and SHE had to buy HIM out of the family house because she could not afford to keep it on her own and with them "sharing" the boy, there was no "child support."

Divorce sucks.
And I think the KIDS are the ones who get screwed, not the parents.

Quoted: Quoted: I hope someday you can find someone you trust to commit to spending the rest of your life with.     really, what's the point?  i've been married off and own now for about 17 years (and "committed" for even longer) and i honestly can't say it was worth it; very few times i've hit the ground on my knees throwing my hands in the air crying out "thanks jeebus, for me being married!"  now, with the ever-present legal system having it cocked-and-loaded and pointing at me from behind really gives it that dubious quality. a lot of posters will equate marriage (and fatherhood) as being great by having survived or endured some ordeal.  that, by definition, is hardship. i didn't want to dump in that guys thread about his ill girlfriend but, again, like a lot of others whom said the same thing: if its so perfect, why aren't they married now?

I'm approaching my 15 year anniversary, and it has absolutely been worth it.  Thank Jesus I'm married, my kids are raised in a stable home, and my wife and I are committed to each other.  I don't feel like I've survived some ordeal - my marriage has forced me to grow up, put someone else above my own needs, and commit.  I understand life's not over, and I'm still subject to it's twists and turns.  Marriage can be a fantastic thing with the right person.  If you're married to someone who's not the right person, though, I completely understand it's as close to hell on earth as you can get!  

Quoted: eta: sorry, left this part out The system is really irrelevant if you find someone you can trust and commit to (and will do the same to you), though.   BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......!!!!!

If you don't get divorced, it doesn't really matter if the system benefits you or not, does it?  What am I missing?  

Please don't misunderstand me - the system is F'ed.  I completely support an overhaul.  It is overcompensating for the significant disparity that existed in the past, and is not needed.  I'm simply responding to those that say they'll never get married (or raise kids?) due to this.  It's kind of like saying I won't drive my car because speeding penalties are high or I could get involved in an accident.  Know and minimize the risks, wear your seatbelt and enjoy it .  

Quoted: I personally think that the person with the shittitest lawyer is the one who gets screwed. I PERSONALLY know at least 4 divorces where the women got screwed. First one, hubby started doing drugs, they split, he never paid a freaking DIME's worth of child support. Three kids with a mom who was unskilled at anything except manufacturing and such. Same with second one except there was one kid and a better skilled mom. Third, hubby was cheating on wife for years. They had 2 boys and hubby owned his own business. A business that he did not pay adequate taxes on. IRS attached her pay (as the business taxes were filed as an addendum to their personal taxes) until the debt was paid....during which time she discovered the affair. When the IRS was getting greedy, they had put the family home (valued at half a mil) in the eldest son's name...son threw dad out and mom walked (both kids were adults) leaving everything in the home. She started all over again alone with NOTHING from the original marriage except DEBT that her rat bastard hubby had created. Fourth, friend was married to a vocally abusive hubby. Who was a closet gay man. She had an affair. (not the best choice, I'll admit) The divorce got UGLY and the kid was bounced every 2 days from him to her (most messed up custody agreement EVER) and SHE had to buy HIM out of the family house because she could not afford to keep it on her own and with them "sharing" the boy, there was no "child support." Divorce sucks. And I think the KIDS are the ones who get screwed, not the parents.

in your entire statement, you didn't point-out anything substantial beyond the kids being the usual victim.  in most cases, women (or S/Os) should know EXACTLY what's going on around them in every facet of their lives.  we, the men (or S/Os), are not responsible, nor should be held accountable, for that.  

any free standing person nowadays, should have complete control of their lives.

Quoted: ...snip.... If you don't get divorced, it doesn't really matter if the system benefits you or not, does it?  What am I missing?   Please don't misunderstand me - the system is F'ed.  I completely support an overhaul.  It is overcompensating for the significant disparity that existed in the past, and is not needed.  I'm simply responding to those that say they'll never get married (or raise kids?) due to this.  It's kind of like saying I won't drive my car because speeding penalties are high or I could get involved in an accident.  Know and minimize the risks, wear your seatbelt and enjoy it .

its all about risk management (funny thought for marriage). you can't skip day-to-day existence just to be safe (unless you live in an institution; probably why paranoid folks live there).  you can out run storms, or move to high ground.  driving you can take the back roads.  

but in human/legal cases, things and events conspire against you.  there is a whole network out there that exists seemingly to be vindictive and extracting.

i've seen a few marriages that seem forged in gold by the furnaces of Heaven, but most people are misled by thinking happiness are three things: marriage, kids, debt

My wife and I are currently separated, and sadly probably headed for divorce.  It wasn't my idea, I don't want it, but there it is.  My wife couldn't accept that I was not "Mr. fix-it" like her dad and brothers.  I never hung a ceiling fan, fixed a leaky faucet, cleaned gutters or anything of the type growing up.  We weren't rich, but we lived comfortably and my parents paid to have that type of stuff done when it needed to be.  I just never learned to do any of it.  My wife's family is pure country, they do all their own electrical, masonry, carpentry etc.  That just wasn't my thing.  She knew this going in, but figured she would change me.  It didn't happen.

So she ends up having an committing adultery.  I was broken but wanted to work things out because I love her and don't want our two little boys to go through a broken home (like I did).  Since I didn't kick her out when her affair came to light and continued to live with her after that I cannot use her adultery as grounds for divorce or as aggravating circumstances against her if she )or her attorney) try to fuck me over in court.  How fucked up is that?  Try to do the right thing, get fucked.

Quoted: <snip> i've seen a few marriages that seem forged in gold by the furnaces of Heaven, but most people are misled by thinking happiness are three things: marriage, kids, debt

Marriage and kids should bring happiness, in a healthy and responsible relationship.  I agree about debt being a problem.

I can't believe you even ask this question.  The reason that men get screwed in  divorce is because the legal system is run by Liberals.  It's no more complex than that.  

There's a belief in the Liberal mind set that for generations men had been favored in divorce so Liberals in their wisdom have deemed it fair to screw men today.  They see it as "turn about is fair play".  

Remember, to a Liberal facts mean nothing.  What seems right to them rules their decision making.  

You will note this same Liberal logic in the relm of gun control.  If it feels good then do it.

It feels good for the system to give children to their mothers, even if they are less capable of being a good parent...except of course, in extreme cases.

Quoted: Quoted: and my girlfriend wonders why i am so leery about jumping into marriage at the age of 24(me) and 22(her) Ditto here and I'm almost 40. A few weeks ago she wanted to know what I didn't want to get married. I gave her the above run-down and said it wasn't worth the risk that someday that might happen all for what benefit? John

The funny thing is, the pendlum (sp?) is swinging... I know quite a few women who do not want to marry and do not want kids.

Quoted: Marriage and kids should bring happiness, in a healthy and responsible relationship.  I agree about debt being a problem.

in a perfect world, but we all know about perfection.  the three parts?  oddly, they're seen almost equal parts of the same equation.

Quoted: I believe the legal justice system is a lot like the stock market.  You'll find corrections.  In my parents generation a man could marry a woman, dump her with her boat load of kids after cheating and beating her and be held harmless.  She and her children were destined to poverty and social rejection.  Poor wages and sexist work detail. Not to say things are right but there is a correction in the system now. Patty

damn!  almost forgot to send out my Slave Reparation check.  (j/k patty)

pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup

pre-nup

I'm one of the 'scared of marriage' type guys.   Unfortunately, I've seen to much in this society that marriage is considered temporary, and can be abandoned at will.

I've seen too much that women feel that way, so the chances of meeting a woman that knows she can bail, and likely end up better off, are higher.

My greatest fear is meeting a woman, marrying her, having a couple kids... then she decides she doesn't want to be married anymore... takes my house and my kids and a considerable portion of my income.  

I'm also afraid of paternity fraud... with society today, even if I were married, if she gets pregnant, I'd have a nagging wonder in the back of my mind...  'is this kid really mine?'

Quoted: pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup ...snip....

overturn, overturn, overturn, Ad infinitum

The real problem is activist judges and the idea that women are a minority.

Divorce should be easy, not rocket science, to figure out.

Assets split 50/50.  Mom gets kids (because moms are generally better nurturers) dad gets significant visitation.  There are always exceptions to the rule.  If mom has some criminal convictions for meth use around the kids or drunk driving with the kids.  OR if dad has criminal convictions for abusing the kids.  Restraining orders and other forms of paper terrorism should be reduced.

I spent a number of years as a prosecutor handling domestic violence and child victim cases.  Now I handle a lot of family law cases.  I say the courts and attorneys enable the long protracted super expensive divorce cases.

My personal feeling is that if a person does not want another person to have a meaningful relationship with their child then they shouldn't have had sex with them in the first place.

The court treats most men as life support systems for a wallet.  It is only recently that the courts are realizing the importance of a father's relationship with his children.  It will become much more pronounced as time goes by.  There is a generation of kids who have been secreted away from their dads because of irrational fears and hate.  These kids. especially boys, are way more likely to be some kind of screwed up as adults.  This may sound politically incorrect but a mom cannot raise a man.  A mom can raise a boy but not a man.  It takes a man to raise a man.  After all that is what we are in need of - mighty men of valor.

IMHO it is disinformation fed to us by the libs when they talk about how bad it was for women in the 50's.  The mass media equates staying at home as something really bad.  The examples given were the exceptions way more than the rule.  I have reviewed countless really old divorces in probate matters and find that the courts were actually pretty kind to women of that generation in divorce situations.  Furthermore divorce was a lot less frequent.  The George Sorros libs want us to believe it was because women were treated not too different from slaves.  Beaten, uneducated and silenced.  I think that is Bull.  The libs have to say that.  Otherwise all of there other social engineering, diversity, BS arguments fall apart.  There were less divorces because people were more concerned with family values. AND probably more happy. Men were more likely to live with their wives in an understanding way.  Wives generally did not have a problem letting their husband be the leader.  Husbands didn't have a problem listening to their wive's needs and concerns.  People had lower expectations and it wasn't all about them.

Oops sorry for the rant.  As you were.

So much for the equal rights and equal treatment that women demand from society.

Quoted: So much for the equal rights and equal treatment that women demand from society.

As often happens with special interest groups, some people are deemed "more equal" than others.

Quoted: So much for the equal rights and equal treatment that women demand from society.

When they say "rights" they mean "privileges".

tag for future reading, marriage is a scam

Quoted: pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup pre-nup

Let me share with you a clue, Mr. Pre-nup.

You can't make a contract that goes against law.

In other words, you can't sign a prenup stating that no maintenance will be paid when that maintenance is stipulated in divorce law.

Here in IL, about the only thing a pre-nup is good for is stipulating what the pre-marital assets are and agreeing that they will remain with whoever had them pre-maritally.

Pretty much anything else, as far as protecting the male half, isn't going to last five minutes with a rookie divorce lawyer.

John

Quoted: Quoted: I personally think that the person with the shittitest lawyer is the one who gets screwed. I PERSONALLY know at least 4 divorces where the women got screwed. First one, hubby started doing drugs, they split, he never paid a freaking DIME's worth of child support. Three kids with a mom who was unskilled at anything except manufacturing and such. Same with second one except there was one kid and a better skilled mom. Third, hubby was cheating on wife for years. They had 2 boys and hubby owned his own business. A business that he did not pay adequate taxes on. IRS attached her pay (as the business taxes were filed as an addendum to their personal taxes) until the debt was paid....during which time she discovered the affair. When the IRS was getting greedy, they had put the family home (valued at half a mil) in the eldest son's name...son threw dad out and mom walked (both kids were adults) leaving everything in the home. She started all over again alone with NOTHING from the original marriage except DEBT that her rat bastard hubby had created. Fourth, friend was married to a vocally abusive hubby. Who was a closet gay man. She had an affair. (not the best choice, I'll admit) The divorce got UGLY and the kid was bounced every 2 days from him to her (most messed up custody agreement EVER) and SHE had to buy HIM out of the family house because she could not afford to keep it on her own and with them "sharing" the boy, there was no "child support." Divorce sucks. And I think the KIDS are the ones who get screwed, not the parents. in your entire statement, you didn't point-out anything substantial beyond the kids being the usual victim.  in most cases, women (or S/Os) should know EXACTLY what's going on around them in every facet of their lives.  we, the men (or S/Os), are not responsible, nor should be held accountable, for that.   any free standing person nowadays, should have complete control of their lives.

Um...what exactly is your point?
You say I made no substantial point except that kids are the victim. That WAS the POINT.
This thread is dedicated to making the MEN out to be the victims in divorce ALL the time.

I'm not arguing that men have not been screwed. I'm arguing that women ALSO have been screwed.
But in the end...it's the kids who get burnt the most.

And if everybody knew everything going on around them in every facet of their lives, we'd have no need for PI's, lawyers or Miss Chloe.

Probably already been said, but I'm tired of this women "want their cake and eat it too" mentality.  They demand the same rights, same pay, etc yet also demand and receive special treatment in things such as divorce, or have some sort of physical requirement bent for them (such as the military).  

I agree with the orignal post: and thats the way it is!
I got divorced and yes she got everthing! She lied her teeth out to the judge!
Now dumb ass me got remarried! I found she was enabling here daughter (from a previous marrige sp..) $ 60,000 in debt. So I got a post nup. agreement! Now most people that I have talked to say they are not worth a shit!
She didn't have a box of crackers when we met! We will see what happens...
Think what will happen if Hillary gets elected! Holly SHITTT.........
pay back for Bill and all of the Males out there

A man is better off paying for pie than marring it, and cheaper in the long run!

Quoted: Quoted: Marriage and kids should bring happiness, in a healthy and responsible relationship.  I agree about debt being a problem. in a perfect world, but we all know about perfection.  the three parts?  oddly, they're seen almost equal parts of the same equation. Quoted: I believe the legal justice system is a lot like the stock market.  You'll find corrections.  In my parents generation a man could marry a woman, dump her with her boat load of kids after cheating and beating her and be held harmless.  She and her children were destined to poverty and social rejection.  Poor wages and sexist work detail. Not to say things are right but there is a correction in the system now. Patty damn!  almost forgot to send out my Slave Reparation check.  (j/k patty)

How much do you pay?  I would be happy to be your ex wife for a lot less!

Isn't if funny how when your in love and happy, both say, "I'd never do that kind of thing to you, I'm not like them."?  They mean it when they say it, but that stops when the bond is broke, then it's no holds barred, all that goes right out the window, lies fly like gnats buzzing around their heads, and both seek to do as much damage (emotional & financial) as possible to the person they were so in love with.
My current wife has done some pretty awful stuff, but after being divorced before, I've learned to be a MUCH more forgiving person than I was before. It's a survival instinct now.