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Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:25:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not a donor.  Will never be one.


You'd take one, right?


Off course he will.. At least 99% of americans willmtake an organ ( kidney, liver, skin) in order to keep living.. And a large number will never consider being a donor..
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:29:13 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I knew sooner or later theyd be killing people for their organs so I am not a donor


Hope u or anyone close to you never has the need for an organ to continue living. It will be a shame that they will have to suffer awating for an organ because of people like you..
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:31:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not a donor.  Will never be one.


You'd take one, right?


I meant that more to the fact that due to other medical conditions of mine, I take medications that make me a less than desireable donor.  
I would never be selected even if i were registered.  

eta: same reason Uncle Sam Said "No, thanks"  when I Tried to join up for the military.


You can still help a lot of people with skin graft or cartilage donation.. Not only organs are needed..
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:35:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
I already have a modified DNR, the only exception from a full DNR is it allows the Dr/Nrs to maintain perfusion of my organs for donation, if i come out after CPR then fine but if I don't...slice, slice.


Thank you. Because of unselfish people like you, many people like me can continue to live. And yes I am an organ transplant patient as well as an organ donor. Got a kidney from my brother 5 years ago.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:39:07 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Won't donate any, won't take any either.....

   When your time is up, your time is up. Seen enough folks exixt in a living hell with meds, tests, etc. after transplant to know it's not for me. Seriously looking into an ironclad DNR that prohibits them from even touching me. When it's over I want to stay dead, not be brought half back and semi-retarded only to live with the indignity of some half assed, semi-damned lurching existence. If you can't have the same quality of life then why bother breathing ??


I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:46:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Won't donate any, won't take any either.....

   When your time is up, your time is up. Seen enough folks exixt in a living hell with meds, tests, etc. after transplant to know it's not for me. Seriously looking into an ironclad DNR that prohibits them from even touching me. When it's over I want to stay dead, not be brought half back and semi-retarded only to live with the indignity of some half assed, semi-damned lurching existence. If you can't have the same quality of life then why bother breathing ??


I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b


 Good to know it's binding and can't be ignored /superceded by outside influences. I made my peace with death long ago....
 

Link Posted: 9/16/2010 7:59:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Surprise, surprise...
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 8:19:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 8:22:38 PM EDT
[#9]
When everyone, and I mean EVERYONE involved with the organ harvesting and transplanting donates their services to the effort, then I will donate my organs. Until then, if they want mine they can pay my estate.

Edit;

If I am under some societal imposed moral obligation to give my parts away, then the professionals that do the job are under the same obligation to give their skills away.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 8:25:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 8:36:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Does not reflect donation practices in this country.

Patients screaming out in pain during an organ harvest... in a Euro hostel maybe.  In the US...





This does happen. One I was in the patient made a loud noise and spooked everyone in the room. We were actually giving pain meds. Ever wonder why there is an anesthesiologist in harvesting?



You do realize that a dead person can still make some noise if there is air in the stomach and it makes ot's way up throught the throat and throu the vocal cords?  I've been in the room after bagging a deceased person and had to roll them to get something from underneath them and had them "groin" or even pass gas, it isn't unheard of.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 8:37:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Won't donate any, won't take any either.....

   When your time is up, your time is up. Seen enough folks exixt in a living hell with meds, tests, etc. after transplant to know it's not for me. Seriously looking into an ironclad DNR that prohibits them from even touching me. When it's over I want to stay dead, not be brought half back and semi-retarded only to live with the indignity of some half assed, semi-damned lurching existence. If you can't have the same quality of life then why bother breathing ??


I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b


That sounds like complete bullshit.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 8:39:08 PM EDT
[#13]
If I don't need them anymore maybe some youngster somewhere does in order to a live a good life.  Even with the other ideals, politics and economics involved that's all donation boils down to for me.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 8:41:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Won't donate any, won't take any either.....

   When your time is up, your time is up. Seen enough folks exixt in a living hell with meds, tests, etc. after transplant to know it's not for me. Seriously looking into an ironclad DNR that prohibits them from even touching me. When it's over I want to stay dead, not be brought half back and semi-retarded only to live with the indignity of some half assed, semi-damned lurching existence. If you can't have the same quality of life then why bother breathing ??


I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b

I thought DNRs could be verbally invalidated at any time by the patient?
 


If the patient has capacity yes a dnr can be recended.
Link Posted: 9/17/2010 11:32:47 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Won't donate any, won't take any either.....

   When your time is up, your time is up. Seen enough folks exixt in a living hell with meds, tests, etc. after transplant to know it's not for me. Seriously looking into an ironclad DNR that prohibits them from even touching me. When it's over I want to stay dead, not be brought half back and semi-retarded only to live with the indignity of some half assed, semi-damned lurching existence. If you can't have the same quality of life then why bother breathing ??


I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b


That sounds like complete bullshit.


I can tell you are NOT in the medical field...  When a patient has CHF and its drowning on his onw fluids, and they can't breath (and they are DNR) the feeling of drowning is horrible...  This is when many patients do try to change their mind...
Link Posted: 9/17/2010 11:34:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Won't donate any, won't take any either.....

   When your time is up, your time is up. Seen enough folks exixt in a living hell with meds, tests, etc. after transplant to know it's not for me. Seriously looking into an ironclad DNR that prohibits them from even touching me. When it's over I want to stay dead, not be brought half back and semi-retarded only to live with the indignity of some half assed, semi-damned lurching existence. If you can't have the same quality of life then why bother breathing ??


I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b

I thought DNRs could be verbally invalidated at any time by the patient?
 


If the patient has capacity yes a dnr can be recended.


Correct... And we do it really fast in those cases, but unfortunately many times the patient waits way to long to change their mind, and the injury or insult to their lungs, heart or event brain is already done...
Link Posted: 9/17/2010 12:23:26 PM EDT
[#17]
This is of course a personal decision for everyone.  And to make a decision like this you have to use whatever information is available from sources you can trust.  My best friend has been a cop for 28 years.  He spent over 25 years of it on the street and has been an assaults detective for the rest of it.  He has been in emergency rooms many, many times.  He will not allow any of his family to be organ donors because of the things he has observed and heard.  This guy is not your typical cop.  He is a thinking, caring man who is old school.  I trust his opinion.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:12:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not a donor.  Will never be one.


You'd take one, right?


Off course he will.. At least 99% of americans willmtake an organ ( kidney, liver, skin) in order to keep living.. And a large number will never consider being a donor..


Right. There's plenty who would talk shit about not taking organs until it's them of their kid.
Same group probably doesn't include other tissue, such as tendons for athletic injuries.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:18:27 PM EDT
[#19]

I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b




That don't make any sense.
What do you do that would put you in the position for a patient, who is a DNR, to "beg you" to save them?
(I will assume you were drinking and posting, by the looks of things. )
If teh patient wanted to try to live a bit longer, all they would have to do is recend the DNR amd get some additional treatment.


Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:21:23 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Won't donate any, won't take any either.....

   When your time is up, your time is up. Seen enough folks exixt in a living hell with meds, tests, etc. after transplant to know it's not for me. Seriously looking into an ironclad DNR that prohibits them from even touching me. When it's over I want to stay dead, not be brought half back and semi-retarded only to live with the indignity of some half assed, semi-damned lurching existence. If you can't have the same quality of life then why bother breathing ??


I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b


 Good to know it's binding and can't be ignored /superceded by outside influences. I made my peace with death long ago....
 



A phycisian can refuse to make you a DNR even if you or your agent desire it.
Rarely happens.
Patient or family usually get a new doctor.
Some people get overwhelmed and are ready to throw in the towel right off the bat.
I know a 50 something year old dude with very minor problems who makes himself a DNR whenever he come in for anything, including out patient test.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:24:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Won't donate any, won't take any either.....

   When your time is up, your time is up. Seen enough folks exixt in a living hell with meds, tests, etc. after transplant to know it's not for me. Seriously looking into an ironclad DNR that prohibits them from even touching me. When it's over I want to stay dead, not be brought half back and semi-retarded only to live with the indignity of some half assed, semi-damned lurching existence. If you can't have the same quality of life then why bother breathing ??


I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b

I thought DNRs could be verbally invalidated at any time by the patient?
 


They can be revoked ONLY by whoever initiated it.
If you are incapacitated some one (spouse, tutor, curator, POA) or some class (children, nephews, ect.) or a doctor must initiate the DNR.
ONLY that / those agents can revoke.
It does take a majority for either if more than one agent is involved. If it's only two, who disagree, it can get complicated.

Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:26:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:32:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Won't donate any, won't take any either.....

   When your time is up, your time is up. Seen enough folks exixt in a living hell with meds, tests, etc. after transplant to know it's not for me. Seriously looking into an ironclad DNR that prohibits them from even touching me. When it's over I want to stay dead, not be brought half back and semi-retarded only to live with the indignity of some half assed, semi-damned lurching existence. If you can't have the same quality of life then why bother breathing ??


I had have DNR patients that when facedmwith death, they beg you to savemthem. Butmsincemthe
dNR is a legal document, all I can do is make then confortable. It sucks b


That sounds like complete bullshit.


I can tell you are NOT in the medical field...  When a patient has CHF and its drowning on his onw fluids, and they can't breath (and they are DNR) the feeling of drowning is horrible...  This is when many patients do try to change their mind...


                                                        BULLSHIT.
You are a SUCK ASS a nurse if you sit around and let that happen.
Jesus Christ. You post shit like this like you don't realize people read this and think you represent a decent nurse. Fuck.
I've been around many CHFer's that were dieing. Death's usually not very pleasant, but there is absolutely no reason for it to be horrible in an acute care setting.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:33:47 PM EDT
[#24]
The only thing that I dont like about the whole Donor process is that the hospital is going to make alot of money off my organs, I wish a small amount of that money would go to my family.

Brian
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:35:31 PM EDT
[#25]
At least one hospital I've been in does not honor DNRs and they tell you that up front.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:36:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Fuck 'em.  Odds are it's going to a shitty person.  Look at the average person you meet.  You want your body parts going to them?  Fuck 'em.

Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:38:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
At least one hospital I've been in does not honor DNRs and they tell you that up front.


BS.
You probably misunderstood that they didn't honor a DNR from another facility.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 5:38:52 PM EDT
[#28]
Ever since that movie "Coma' I've looked at the idea of organ harvesting with a jaundiced eye.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 6:00:05 PM EDT
[#29]
I'm in the medical field and say they can have whatever the hell they want when my time comes. As somebody else stated, I rather they err on the side of to soon rather than to late in that I don't want to live some screwed up half-existance. There will come a time when I get "DNR" tattooed on my chest wall. I think that the US should go to an opt-out rather than an opt-in system of organ donation. In other words you are considered an organ donor unless you say otherwise on your DL. How many people meant to but never got around to it but if you are dead set against it you will be damn sure to opt out.

On a side note, I remember the first time I helped put a guy in a bodybag...I KNEW he was dead but let out a big groan when we went to move him. All that air is still trapped in there and sometimes makes for strange noises
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 6:46:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
I knew sooner or later theyd be killing people for their organs so I am not a donor


It's pretty well accepted now that China is doing exactly that.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 6:59:30 PM EDT
[#31]
reminds me of that game "headhunter"

Everybody used "EMP guns" to kill to preserve organs for donation, "real guns" were illegal.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:04:26 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Does not reflect donation practices in this country.

Patients screaming out in pain during an organ harvest... in a Euro hostel maybe.  In the US...





This does happen. One I was in the patient made a loud noise and spooked everyone in the room. We were actually giving pain meds. Ever wonder why there is an anesthesiologist in harvesting?



Freaky.  I can see the body reacting to some intrusive situation, whether or not they can feel it.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:09:13 PM EDT
[#33]




Quoted:

This is of course a personal decision for everyone. And to make a decision like this you have to use whatever information is available from sources you can trust. My best friend has been a cop for 28 years. He spent over 25 years of it on the street and has been an assaults detective for the rest of it. He has been in emergency rooms many, many times. He will not allow any of his family to be organ donors because of the things he has observed and heard. This guy is not your typical cop. He is a thinking, caring man who is old school. I trust his opinion.




From everything you describe, I'd trust his opinion with respect to law enforcement. I'd dare say I've been involved in far more end of life & transplant decisions than he has. After everything I've observed and heard, I am a donor and encourage my family to be donors. Maybe I'm not your typical doctor - maybe I'm one of those rarities that is also a thinking, caring man who is somewhat old school (I trained at a very old school ivy league residency where anesthesia was born). Perhaps you could trust my opinion. The American Board of Anesthesia feels that I'm qualified to render professional opinions regarding the specialty of anesthesia and critical care. We are intimately involved in many steps of the donation process.



Being in the ER many, many times doesn't make him a medical expert any more than driving in a car many, many times makes me a race car driving expert.



Here's some info from someone who has participated in many transplants, both living and deceased donor:

1- We docs don't make huge profit margins. Lab work and hospital overhead, including paying all operating room staff, are very expensive. That doesn't even begin to account for the tremendous productivity lost by keeping an OR unused and a crew on standby for hours waiting for the transplant. If you don't understand that opportunity cost, then stop spouting misinformation about healthcare costs. All too frequently, a donated organ will later be deemed unsuitable. That doesn't magically erase all the time and effort involved in obtaining that organ. If you think it's somehow unethical to bill a recipient's insurance company for their treatment, then maybe you should expect all of their treatment prior to organ transplantation to be free, too. I hemorrhage money keeping an anesthesia provider under- or unitilized for hours. There is a tremendous amount of time and resources donated by hospitals and healthcare personnel. I know I've given plenty of unrecouped time and procedure work, and occasionally get a thank-you letter. Other times, I just do what needs to be done, because I'd hope that someone would do the same and pay it forward.



2- We don't "not work as hard" if someone is a donor. Traumas come in and get treated. Full stop. At least half the time, I'm taking care of some "trauma doe" and busting my hump with the surgeons to keep them alive. We don't even know their name, let alone donor status.



3- This continues in the ICU, even when the donor status is known. When brain death is the outcome, then donation is discussed with next of kin. We don't kill people for their organs. We don't stop trying to save them any sooner if donation is suspected.



4- It's a donation. Despite some of the more obvious selfish posters here, there are still charitable people in the world. They recognize that donating organs and tissue that would otherwise be roasted in a crematorium or rot underground, can help make someone else's life better. It can even bring some relief to suffering, knowing that some good can come from an often tragic death. If you want to be paid, then go to another country where organ trafficking is commonplace.



5- If you don't want to donate, then don't. That in no way gives you the right to impugn those who donate tremendous time and effort.



6- You may be surprised who needs or has received organ donations, and who has donated. One of ARFcom's site staff, for example. My own sister-in-law will likely succumb before she ever reaches the top of the waiting list for a heart. One of my close family members donated tissue after she died.



7- Bears repeating. Be as selfish as you want, but STFU when it comes to making assumptions about healthcare providers or patients and their motivations. You are way, way out of line in doing that. Hearsay from a friend of a friend does not count as informed decision making.





Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:11:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
I'm in the medical field and say they can have whatever the hell they want when my time comes. As somebody else stated, I rather they err on the side of to soon rather than to late in that I don't want to live some screwed up half-existance. There will come a time when I get "DNR" tattooed on my chest wall. I think that the US should go to an opt-out rather than an opt-in system of organ donation. In other words you are considered an organ donor unless you say otherwise on your DL. How many people meant to but never got around to it but if you are dead set against it you will be damn sure to opt out.

On a side note, I remember the first time I helped put a guy in a bodybag...I KNEW he was dead but let out a big groan when we went to move him. All that air is still trapped in there and sometimes makes for strange noises

Bull crap , I shouldn't have to opt out of anything.
If you want my organs , or to make sales calls, or send me  junk mail I'll opt IN !
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:15:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:

Quoted:
When the doctors and hospitals start donating time and service to install the free parts they get....... then I might think about being an Organ Donor.

Docs will drop everything and fly thousands of miles on the hospitals dime just to LOOK at potentially viable organs before a harvest.  The financial and time investment is huge.  I'm surprised that a bunch of supposed conservatives and libertarians would expect that these services to be free on both sides of the donation.  They certainly don't profit.
 


Does the donor's family still get a medical bill from the hospital?
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:15:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:17:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:20:40 PM EDT
[#38]




Quoted:



Quoted:





Quoted:

When the doctors and hospitals start donating time and service to install the free parts they get....... then I might think about being an Organ Donor.


Docs will drop everything and fly thousands of miles on the hospitals dime just to LOOK at potentially viable organs before a harvest. The financial and time investment is huge. I'm surprised that a bunch of supposed conservatives and libertarians would expect that these services to be free on both sides of the donation. They certainly don't profit.





Does the donor's family still get a medical bill from the hospital?


Yes, BUT: Only for treatment and services up until declaration of death. After that, the patient receives a new identity as far as the hospital is concerned, including a separate medical record number.  That's how it's done at my hospital, and (it's been half a decade at my current place, so my memory is hazy) elsewhere, too.



Donation-related expenses are not billed to the donor's estate; whatever isn't done gratis (and there is an awful lot of off-the books gratis stuff like like the above-mentioned "drop everything and fly away" opportunity cost) is billed to the recipient & their insurance.

Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:22:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
When the doctors and hospitals start donating time and service to install the free parts they get....... then I might think about being an Organ Donor.

Docs will drop everything and fly thousands of miles on the hospitals dime just to LOOK at potentially viable organs before a harvest.  The financial and time investment is huge.  I'm surprised that a bunch of supposed conservatives and libertarians would expect that these services to be free on both sides of the donation.  They certainly don't profit.
 


Does the donor's family still get a medical bill from the hospital?

The donor's family is responsible for all costs up to the donation, just as if they'd be responsible for bills up to discharge or death in a non-donor.  The family is not responsible for the harvest or any costs associated with it (continued life support for organ perfusion, surgeons traveling, etc).
 


Then the hospital got the organs for free.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:24:40 PM EDT
[#40]




Quoted:



Quoted:





Quoted:



Quoted:





Quoted:

When the doctors and hospitals start donating time and service to install the free parts they get....... then I might think about being an Organ Donor.


Docs will drop everything and fly thousands of miles on the hospitals dime just to LOOK at potentially viable organs before a harvest. The financial and time investment is huge. I'm surprised that a bunch of supposed conservatives and libertarians would expect that these services to be free on both sides of the donation. They certainly don't profit.





Does the donor's family still get a medical bill from the hospital?


The donor's family is responsible for all costs up to the donation, just as if they'd be responsible for bills up to discharge or death in a non-donor. The family is not responsible for the harvest or any costs associated with it (continued life support for organ perfusion, surgeons traveling, etc).





Then the hospital got the organs for free.


Your post is so illogical and misinformed as to make no sense. The hospital doesn't "get" the organs. They are generally coordinated through a transplant organization. Individual organs may go to different people thousands of miles away.  The last donation I worked on had teams fly in from California, Oregon, and Washington.  Each left with different organs, all coordinated by the regional transplant bank.



You're looking at it as a binary transaction, which it isn't. You do realize, don't you, that expecting to have all hospital expenses prior to declaration of death expunged by donation is organ trafficking. That's not legal. That's a transaction, exchanging organs for services rendered.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:27:00 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:

Quoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
When the doctors and hospitals start donating time and service to install the free parts they get....... then I might think about being an Organ Donor.

Docs will drop everything and fly thousands of miles on the hospitals dime just to LOOK at potentially viable organs before a harvest. The financial and time investment is huge. I'm surprised that a bunch of supposed conservatives and libertarians would expect that these services to be free on both sides of the donation. They certainly don't profit.


Does the donor's family still get a medical bill from the hospital?

The donor's family is responsible for all costs up to the donation, just as if they'd be responsible for bills up to discharge or death in a non-donor. The family is not responsible for the harvest or any costs associated with it (continued life support for organ perfusion, surgeons traveling, etc).


Then the hospital got the organs for free.

Your post is so illogical and misinformed as to make no sense.  The hospital doesn't get the organs.  They are coordinated through a transplant organization.  Individual organs may go to different people thousands of miles away.

The hospital makes money though.

Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:31:35 PM EDT
[#42]




Quoted:



Quoted:





Quoted:



Quoted:





Quoted:



Quoted:





Quoted:

When the doctors and hospitals start donating time and service to install the free parts they get....... then I might think about being an Organ Donor.


Docs will drop everything and fly thousands of miles on the hospitals dime just to LOOK at potentially viable organs before a harvest. The financial and time investment is huge. I'm surprised that a bunch of supposed conservatives and libertarians would expect that these services to be free on both sides of the donation. They certainly don't profit.





Does the donor's family still get a medical bill from the hospital?


The donor's family is responsible for all costs up to the donation, just as if they'd be responsible for bills up to discharge or death in a non-donor. The family is not responsible for the harvest or any costs associated with it (continued life support for organ perfusion, surgeons traveling, etc).





Then the hospital got the organs for free.


Your post is so illogical and misinformed as to make no sense. The hospital doesn't get the organs. They are coordinated through a transplant organization. Individual organs may go to different people thousands of miles away.



The hospital makes money though.





The hospital charges for expenses, which are passed on to recipients; it's impossible for the entirety of organ donation to be free under our medical system. Labs, staffing, everything cost a certain amount. Do you expect everyone, including the scrub technician, secretaries, and janitorial staff to all donate their time? I have seen hospital budgets, and can tell you that they're not basking in the glow of massive profits from transplants.



Have you ever been in a medical executive meeting where hospital budgets were discussed? I have.  Charging for expenses does not equal making a profit.



Read my edited post above - wiping all premortem charges away in exchange for donation is organ trafficking.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:34:27 PM EDT
[#43]
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Never volunteered and never will consider until the financial system is straighten out.  Currently,  the supply is free to the profit makers.  Therefore, the market-up rate, or profit margin is astronomically high. That, in itself, sets up a ripe environment for fraud.


Show statistics to back up your accusations.  It's expensive, but that doesn't mean it's an "astronomically high profit margin."  Do you think that insurance companies haven't looked transplantation over under a microscope?  Do you think that they would, even for a nanosecond, tolerate huge profits in excess of actual costs?  


Just in the last year or two there was a news story about a funeral home in Philadelphia that was transporting decedents to New York for organ donation before cremation.  They produced death certificates with clean causes of death, and forged family authorizations.

The news story below.

Sep 2, 2008 5:35 pm US/Eastern Garzone Brothers Plea Guilty To Corpse TheftPHILADELPHIA (AP) ―  Click to enlarge1 of 1
CBS

Close




numSlides of totalImages  Related Slideshows Hollywood Stars 'Stand Up To Cancer'  Invented By Accident  Louisiana Faces Cleanup After Gustav  2008 Celebrity Deaths  Republicans Take Over Twin Cities  Back To School Snapshots Two brothers who ran a funeral home and crematorium admitted Tuesday that they sold corpses to a company that trafficked in stolen body parts, a macabre scheme that left families aghast and wondering about the fate of their loved ones.

Louis and Gerald Garzone pleaded guilty to charges including conspiracy, theft, abuse of corpse and welfare fraud.

The gruesome allegations read in court drew gasps, murmurs and tears from about two dozen people who had entrusted the bodies of their loved ones to the Garzones' facilities in Philadelphia.

The brothers allowed at least 244 corpses to be carved up without families' permission and without medical tests, prosecutors said. Skin, bones, tendons and other parts—some of them diseased –– were then sold around the country for dental implants, knee and hip replacements and other procedures.

Some bodies were only torsos by the time the hacking was done, said Assistant District Attorney Evangelia Manos.

The mastermind of the scheme, Michael Mastromarino, pleaded guilty Friday to hundreds of charges that could send him to prison for life. He is already serving 18 to 54 years for running the scam in New York.
Mastromarino's company, Fort Lee, N.J.-based Biomedical Tissue Services, took bodies from funeral homes in New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Among the corpses plundered was that of "Masterpiece Theatre" host Alistair Cooke.

In Philadelphia, he paid the Garzones and their partner, James McCafferty, more than $245,000 for at least 244 cadavers between February 2004 and October 2005, prosecutors said.

Mastromarino would then send a "cutting" crew, led by former nurse Lee Cruceta, to Philadelphia to dissect the bodies. Cruceta pleaded guilty in January to abusing corpses and other charges; McCafferty pleaded guilty last month to conspiracy and theft charges.

The tissue plundered from a single body often fetched about $4,000, and Mastromarino made millions from the scheme, prosecutors said.

Authorities were only able to identify 49 of the 244 bodies, since the scam entailed falsifying names, ages and causes of death to disguise corpses that were too old or too diseased to be harvested legally. The Garzones burned their records in the crematorium when investigators started asking questions, Manos said.

One of the harvested bodies was that of Lois Elder, 58, of Philadelphia, who died of complications from a stroke in April 2005, said Taya Elder, her daughter.

Elder, 39, attended the Garzones' hearing and said afterward that she is glad to be spared a trial. Even though she heard many of the chilling details during the grand jury investigation that led to the indictments, listening to them again in court Tuesday brought her to tears.

"It took me for a loop," Elder said. "It really is shocking."

Her mother was supposed to be cremated. Today, Elder said she can only assume the ashes she has are, in fact, what was left of her mother's body after the cutting crew finished its work.

The Garzones' pleas came on the day their trial was to begin. The attorney for Gerald Garzone, 48, of North Wales, said his client's taking responsibility will be a step toward closure for those who were so visibly upset in the courtroom.

"The healing can begin," said the lawyer, William J. Brennan. "I certainly can appreciate the depth of their emotions."

Louis Garzone, 66, of Philadelphia, also pleaded guilty to insurance fraud.

He claimed in August 2006 that he was unable to work due to severe depression, Manos said. In reality, he had surrendered his funeral director's license about two months earlier but continued to work at his funeral home, which was then under the auspices of another director, Manos said.

Both Garzones also pleaded guilty to defrauding the state public welfare department, which reimburses funeral homes for services provided to indigent families. The Garzones filed for about $77,000 in reimbursements they were not entitled to, prosecutors said.

The brothers remain free on bail pending sentencing Oct. 22.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:35:16 PM EDT
[#44]
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When the doctors and hospitals start donating time and service to install the free parts they get....... then I might think about being an Organ Donor.

Docs will drop everything and fly thousands of miles on the hospitals dime just to LOOK at potentially viable organs before a harvest. The financial and time investment is huge. I'm surprised that a bunch of supposed conservatives and libertarians would expect that these services to be free on both sides of the donation. They certainly don't profit.


Does the donor's family still get a medical bill from the hospital?

The donor's family is responsible for all costs up to the donation, just as if they'd be responsible for bills up to discharge or death in a non-donor. The family is not responsible for the harvest or any costs associated with it (continued life support for organ perfusion, surgeons traveling, etc).


Then the hospital got the organs for free.

Your post is so illogical and misinformed as to make no sense.  The hospital doesn't get the organs.  They are coordinated through a transplant organization.  Individual organs may go to different people thousands of miles away.

The hospital makes money though.



And I don't have a problem with that. Doctors gotta get paid too. I do have a problem with the fact that by law, nobody besides the donor/dr/hospital can get a single penny out of it. IOW, the donor's family doesn't get squat to offset hospital bills or funeral costs.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:36:02 PM EDT
[#45]
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When the doctors and hospitals start donating time and service to install the free parts they get....... then I might think about being an Organ Donor.

Docs will drop everything and fly thousands of miles on the hospitals dime just to LOOK at potentially viable organs before a harvest. The financial and time investment is huge. I'm surprised that a bunch of supposed conservatives and libertarians would expect that these services to be free on both sides of the donation. They certainly don't profit.


Does the donor's family still get a medical bill from the hospital?

The donor's family is responsible for all costs up to the donation, just as if they'd be responsible for bills up to discharge or death in a non-donor. The family is not responsible for the harvest or any costs associated with it (continued life support for organ perfusion, surgeons traveling, etc).


Then the hospital got the organs for free.

Your post is so illogical and misinformed as to make no sense. The hospital doesn't get the organs. They are coordinated through a transplant organization. Individual organs may go to different people thousands of miles away.

The hospital makes money though.


The hospital charges for expenses; it's impossible for the entirety of organ donation to be free under our medical system.  Labs, staffing, everything cost a certain amount.  Do you expect everyone, including the scrub technician, secretaries, and janitorial staff to all donate their time?  I have seen hospital budgets, and can tell you that they're not basking in the glow of massive profits from transplants.

Have you ever been in a medical executive meeting where hospital budgets were discussed?  Charging for expenses does not equal making a profit.


You expect me to give up my organs for free.
Pay me beforehand or pay my estate for them I'll gladly give them up.

If you think someone should give them up for free , then the Drs., the hosp. , and the pham. co . should do it for free.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:37:24 PM EDT
[#46]
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Does not reflect donation practices in this country.

Patients screaming out in pain during an organ harvest... in a Euro hostel maybe.  In the US...





This does happen. One I was in the patient made a loud noise and spooked everyone in the room. We were actually giving pain meds. Ever wonder why there is an anesthesiologist in harvesting?



Was this patient intubated?
I have taken plenty of organ harvest patients to the OR.  The anesthesiologists job is to maintain hemodynamic stability.  There is no reason to use analgesics or volatile anesthetics.  Only need muscle relaxant.  
This is almost as retarded as the "vaccines cause autism" arguement.



Actually, we do give some narcs & volatiles. There are still some spinal/subcortical reflex pain responses, and evidence that reducing those will cut down on "evil humors," as I call them, released during surgical stress.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Thanks for explaining, I transported a decedent after a donation once and wondered why there was a IV morphine bottle still attached.  As some one with a limited medical background it made me wonder just what was going on.
Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:37:43 PM EDT
[#47]




Quoted:



You expect me to give up my organs for free.

Pay me beforehand or pay my estate for them I'll gladly give them up.



If you think someone should give them up for free , then the Drs., the hosp. , and the pham. co . should do it for free.



I don't expect you to give your organs for free.  Nobody expects that.



Be as selfish as you want, just don't expect everyone to subscribe to your lack of charity.

Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:39:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:

Quoted:

You expect me to give up my organs for free.
Pay me beforehand or pay my estate for them I'll gladly give them up.

If you think someone should give them up for free , then the Drs., the hosp. , and the pham. co . should do it for free.

I don't expect you to give your organs for free.  Nobody expects that.

Be as selfish as you want, just don't expect everyone to subscribe to your lack of charity.

Are the Drs. being selfish ?

Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:39:30 PM EDT
[#49]




Quoted:



Quoted:



Quoted:

Never volunteered and never will consider until the financial system is straighten out. Currently, the supply is free to the profit makers. Therefore, the market-up rate, or profit margin is astronomically high. That, in itself, sets up a ripe environment for fraud.




Show statistics to back up your accusations. It's expensive, but that doesn't mean it's an "astronomically high profit margin." Do you think that insurance companies haven't looked transplantation over under a microscope? Do you think that they would, even for a nanosecond, tolerate huge profits in excess of actual costs?





Just in the last year or two there was a news story about a funeral home in Philadelphia that was transporting decedents to New York for organ donation before cremation. They produced death certificates with clean causes of death, and forged family authorizations.



The news story below.



Sep 2, 2008 5:35 pm US/Eastern Garzone Brothers Plea Guilty To Corpse TheftPHILADELPHIA (AP) ― Click to enlarge1 of 1

CBS



Close
numSlides of totalImages Related Slideshows Hollywood Stars 'Stand Up To Cancer' Invented By Accident Louisiana Faces Cleanup After Gustav 2008 Celebrity Deaths Republicans Take Over Twin Cities Back To School Snapshots Two brothers who ran a funeral home and crematorium admitted Tuesday that they sold corpses to a company that trafficked in stolen body parts, a macabre scheme that left families aghast and wondering about the fate of their loved ones.



Louis and Gerald Garzone pleaded guilty to charges including conspiracy, theft, abuse of corpse and welfare fraud.



The gruesome allegations read in court drew gasps, murmurs and tears from about two dozen people who had entrusted the bodies of their loved ones to the Garzones' facilities in Philadelphia.



The brothers allowed at least 244 corpses to be carved up without families' permission and without medical tests, prosecutors said. Skin, bones, tendons and other parts—some of them diseased –– were then sold around the country for dental implants, knee and hip replacements and other procedures.



Some bodies were only torsos by the time the hacking was done, said Assistant District Attorney Evangelia Manos.



The mastermind of the scheme, Michael Mastromarino, pleaded guilty Friday to hundreds of charges that could send him to prison for life. He is already serving 18 to 54 years for running the scam in New York.

Mastromarino's company, Fort Lee, N.J.-based Biomedical Tissue Services, took bodies from funeral homes in New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania.



Among the corpses plundered was that of "Masterpiece Theatre" host Alistair Cooke.



In Philadelphia, he paid the Garzones and their partner, James McCafferty, more than $245,000 for at least 244 cadavers between February 2004 and October 2005, prosecutors said.



Mastromarino would then send a "cutting" crew, led by former nurse Lee Cruceta, to Philadelphia to dissect the bodies. Cruceta pleaded guilty in January to abusing corpses and other charges; McCafferty pleaded guilty last month to conspiracy and theft charges.



The tissue plundered from a single body often fetched about $4,000, and Mastromarino made millions from the scheme, prosecutors said.



Authorities were only able to identify 49 of the 244 bodies, since the scam entailed falsifying names, ages and causes of death to disguise corpses that were too old or too diseased to be harvested legally. The Garzones burned their records in the crematorium when investigators started asking questions, Manos said.



One of the harvested bodies was that of Lois Elder, 58, of Philadelphia, who died of complications from a stroke in April 2005, said Taya Elder, her daughter.



Elder, 39, attended the Garzones' hearing and said afterward that she is glad to be spared a trial. Even though she heard many of the chilling details during the grand jury investigation that led to the indictments, listening to them again in court Tuesday brought her to tears.



"It took me for a loop," Elder said. "It really is shocking."



Her mother was supposed to be cremated. Today, Elder said she can only assume the ashes she has are, in fact, what was left of her mother's body after the cutting crew finished its work.



The Garzones' pleas came on the day their trial was to begin. The attorney for Gerald Garzone, 48, of North Wales, said his client's taking responsibility will be a step toward closure for those who were so visibly upset in the courtroom.



"The healing can begin," said the lawyer, William J. Brennan. "I certainly can appreciate the depth of their emotions."



Louis Garzone, 66, of Philadelphia, also pleaded guilty to insurance fraud.



He claimed in August 2006 that he was unable to work due to severe depression, Manos said. In reality, he had surrendered his funeral director's license about two months earlier but continued to work at his funeral home, which was then under the auspices of another director, Manos said.



Both Garzones also pleaded guilty to defrauding the state public welfare department, which reimburses funeral homes for services provided to indigent families. The Garzones filed for about $77,000 in reimbursements they were not entitled to, prosecutors said.



The brothers remain free on bail pending sentencing Oct. 22.


Thanks for that example.  However:



One sensational news story does not make a valid statistical sample.  What they did was criminal and wrong, but us not as commonplace as you are assuming.

Link Posted: 9/18/2010 7:41:36 PM EDT
[#50]
How it's done under the UK's socialized medicine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aclS1pGHp8o
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