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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:35:51 AM EDT
[#1]
You are talking to a church elder on the finance committee, who is also the grandson of a dear departed preacher. It most certainly IS true.
Absolutely untrue. If the purchase at CC is FOR the church, then the pastor has to have a sales tax exemption form ON FILE with the store, and then the purchase can be exempted from sales tax. The purchase typically has to be made with the church's financial accounts to receive the tax exemption. (And there are laws about how the church's accounts can be used. You cannot use them like your own personal piggy bank, or else you end up in Club Fed...)
Uh...not quite. There is a sales tax on the purchase of a car, that is true. But in many states there is also a personal property tax on personally owned vehicles. And with these items, the same rule applies: If the purchase is FOR the church, then the church has to have a tax exemption form on file that includes their state issued tax exemption number, and the purchase has to be made with the church's account.
Churches, like Universities, Hospitals, and other charitable organizations, do not typically pay property taxes. Pastors, however, DO.
I do. Pastors and church employees must still pay SS tax out of their checks, and the church itself must pay the 7.5% payroll tax on the payroll of every employee, from the pastor to the janitor.
Try "minimally tax free". Churches, like other charitable and public institutions, don't pay property or sales tax, but that hardly makes them "tax free". When the church buys gasoline for a church vehicle, they still pay the gas tax. When they buy tires for a church vehicle, they still pay the federal excise tax on tires, etc. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:37:04 AM EDT
[#2]
Thats exactly what I'm sayin'. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:40:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Sir, from reading your posts, I assumed long ago that you are an honorable, and good man. Whether we agree or disagree would have no bearings on that. Based on this, I'd be inclined to believe you own up to your obligations and responsibilities. Instead of taking advantage of opportunities. On the other hand, theres alot of people out there who are not honorable, good men. Once you've got your hands on an exemption, it would be rather easy to do everything "for the church". |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:41:40 AM EDT
[#4]
Again, completely untrue. There is no loophole in the law that allows pastors or deacons or elders or whatever to get out of paying taxes. The church itself is exempted from paying certain kinds of taxes, but typically those are only property and sales taxes. People who work for or are associated with the church have to pay the piper like everyone else. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:42:22 AM EDT
[#5]
That's funny. I never quite figured out the racket but thought there had to be something good about it since there were so many. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:45:15 AM EDT
[#6]
I know. One of the previous pastors at my church used the church's account like his own personal piggy bank. He just got out of jail last year, had to pay the state of Virginia huge fines for improper use of tax exemption (as did our church...), and that is all before the massive check fraud scam he ran was uncovered.
And once you see what happens to someone who tries that one time, you realize it isn't so easy after all. Tax authorities scrutinize the hell out of church finances. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:46:26 AM EDT
[#7]
No, but you use the big black caddy for church business. You might even live in/on church property. The church account could be used for any and all sorts of things. I just see it as a way to essentially funnel money... and people here have been busted for doing so, but I suspect theres alot more of it going on than anyone would like to believe... And it's not politically correct to investigate. Like I say, though... I don't believe everyone does it. I'm positive some of them do. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:46:42 AM EDT
[#8]
UGH! There's no "racket" unless people are doing something illegal. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:48:38 AM EDT
[#9]
Sorry to hear that its happened to your church. I'm very glad to hear the criminal was prosecuted harshly. I believe there are a number of churches set up for solely that reason though. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:50:53 AM EDT
[#10]
Again, I am more familiar with church finances than ANYONE else here. I am telling you flat out: Unless they break the law, no they can't.
In any population you will find criminals. That is a given. Of course there are some that do. I have dealt with it first hand. I have also watched the IRS and various state and local tax agencies climb up in their colon and make camp over tax matters. Hence the idea that there is some sort of general "racket" going on is untrue. Churches have to follow the law like everyone else, and if pastors or church employees do not follow the law, then they will pay the penalty just like everyone else. The vast majority of churches in this nation (on the order of 75-80%) barely have finances enough to pay the light bills and keep the roof from falling in. In our denomination, 70% of the ministers don't even get a salary for the job that they do. Thus the idea of a "racket" just doesn't fly. If someone is going into the ministry to get tax breaks and get rich, they are an idiot because the odds are about as good of it as of winning the lottery. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:51:39 AM EDT
[#11]
He parked his car illegally and got caught. Stop being a bitch and pay up sucka
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:52:17 AM EDT
[#12]
That has got to be the dumbest cop in the whole world. If he (the white male officer) had said "we're giving you the ticket because you were parked illegally", this would have been a non issue. Instead, he said "we're giving you the ticket because you copped an attitude", which sounds suspiciously like "we're giving you the ticket because:
a) you're acting uppity b) to put you in your place". Mr. Preacher Man deserved the ticket, but the JBT (at the very least) deserves to get smacked in the head for being a 
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Posted: 11/2/2006 7:54:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Onlookers had to get involved to calm down the minister and keep him from being arrested? Over a parking ticket? Somehow I don't buy his version that when he moved the car he was jovial and joking with the officers then out of the blue became so enraged that he almost got arrested over a parking ticket. He has a chip on his shoulder (make the officer come down here and apologize!) and the officer who wrote the ticket sensed it when he came out to move the car and decided not to give him a break.
Of course if my name was Calvin Butts I think I'd have a pretty bad atittude also...  edit-I do agree with chibajoe that if that "attitude" comment was made the cop was just asking for trouble |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:01:03 AM EDT
[#14]
I'm not wanting to argue, I'm sure you're a great guy, but I've been in offices were there were more clergy than you could shake a stick at. If their claims were not backed up by others then I'd had to call bs. The thing/ trait that made me think there was a racket (maybe not something illegal, maybe just along the lines of getting invited to all the funerals in the church for free food) involved was that these 'men' were not what I call church going men, their thuggery was plainly evident and the lifestyle was clearly lived or they at least posed themselves as 'players' and the last time I checked G8D didn't give out extra credit for banging ho's and b*tches on the down low, if you know what I mean. I'm not claiming to be an expert on those churches and each person has to pursue their relationship with G*d their own way. But when a quiore director has gold capped teeth and keeps her street talk 'real' and also happens to be a 40ish mother of two. I have to laugh and think something is wrong when Christians are not supposed to be so worried about being real and jiggy and all the other wordly things. I just question their faith and look for other reasons for the to be clergy, it certainly isn't the increase in booty calls. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:04:32 AM EDT
[#15]
The officer was probably pointing out that the preacher escelated the situation from a possible verbal warning/ warning ticket into an actual ticket. Nothing wrong with an officer pointing that out and offering suggestions on how to stay out of trouble in the future. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:05:49 AM EDT
[#16]
You are describing one very messed up "church". One that will most likely be gone in a matter of 10 years. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:13:36 AM EDT
[#17]
I wish you were right but friends of mine have told me similiar tales. I think some of these churches are little better than community centers where religion is not the main purpose. Then again, maybe I've just been unfurtunate to have seen these things during a bad period of the church. Maybe at one time it was better, maybe in the future under new leadership it will get back to it's core purposes. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:15:14 AM EDT
[#18]
Thats exactly my feelings on the matter... AND it is exactly what I would
This is exactly the type of church I was speaking about as well. I take it this sort of thing isn't common in Virginia? You see a "Man of God" standing next to a "steet thug" or pimp, and theres usually a clear difference. There is some motivation there to pose as the former while actually being the latter. I cannot tell you what that is, the only thing I can come up with is laundering and tax exemption. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:16:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Ego on both sides.
Especially with this guy. The rules don't apply to me. Cop should have given him the ticket for parking illegally, not for attitude. Mistake to give a ticket for an unquantifiable offense. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:18:04 AM EDT
[#20]
I don't think ego is the descriptor to direct at the police. Do you think you can "Smart-ass" your way out of a ticket? |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:22:10 AM EDT
[#21]
The LEO should have given him the ticket for parking illegally, without the attitude addendum. That makes it personal which escalates the situation. As a cop the last thing you want to do is escalate a situation. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:22:33 AM EDT
[#22]
It isn't common anywhere in the US. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:26:25 AM EDT
[#23]
gonzo - As a pastor, I pay the exact same taxes as you. I have no "exemption certificate" or anything else that I can whip out. Just my personal billfold. The church I pastor does get tax exemption on purchases. I assume that's because the .gov has ALREADY taxed that money. Nor do I make personal purchases and say they're for the church. Or drive a Caddie that belongs to the church - '95 F150 with 205,000 miles on it last I remember. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:29:03 AM EDT
[#24]
No, but then again, I also can't call the mayor of my city and say "some stupid gumshoe just gave me a ticket; I want his ass" and expect to have it happen... A few years ago, an NOPD cop pulled over the mayor's limo for making an illeagel u-turn and was dumb enough to give him a ticket. The cop was in the right, followed all the rules and was perfectly justified in writing the ticket. He's probably working at McDonald's now, 'cause he sure isn't on the PD any more.
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:29:14 AM EDT
[#25]
Just fucking apologize already, Wave. No sense whining about it here.
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:29:36 AM EDT
[#26]
Let me know the cop's story and then we'll talk.
Should of arrested the punk. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 8:34:19 AM EDT
[#27]
I disagree. The "pastor" made it personal by escalating. The attitude of special, entitled people, wears very thin and should be called out. Cop has all rights to say: "I woulda let you off with a warning, but then you became an asshole, at which point you deserved the ticket." - because its the absolute truth. And having an opportunity to suck on a little truth... Is ultimately for the betterment of society. Next time, maybe the cop won't get handed a handful of shit for trying to do his job. If "pastor" gets his apology, the example is set that theres no need to respect the police. You really want that example set? How hard do you want to make a cop's job? |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 9:00:05 AM EDT
[#28]
That's not the right question. The right question is: "How much harder do you want to force an officer to work to do his/her job?" |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 9:03:13 AM EDT
[#29]
lol, he's the dean of my college! With a name like that...
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Posted: 11/2/2006 9:05:24 AM EDT
[#30]
All cops carry special pens that are voice activated. The more you talk the faster they can write. I can only see one flaw in the officer's action and that was him opening his mouth. Just write the ticket and say "press hard, four copies". |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 9:15:42 AM EDT
[#31]
I already commented on the original post.
I just wish that the old "tax-free" deal with ministers was the way some of you folks think. Daddy was a minister for 43 years. We ate beans and taters out of the garden and generally drove a 20+ year old vehicle and wore hand me downs. Don't let the Jim Bakers and Jimmy Swaggerts fool you into thinking that is the norm. I make more a week than the average american church congregation contributes every sunday. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 9:30:56 AM EDT
[#32]
Yeah, I understand. A few guys have said this now, and I agree, there are good and honest and decent "Men of God" out there. I really have no problem with them, and I don't mean to paint with a broad brush so as to include those good folks. In MI, OH, NY, and I'm sure other places too... we have some things that make you say Hmmm. I can't help that fact, I was just pointing it out. I know a real pastor, preacher, etc... would live a hard life, and I respect that. I don't know how some live an incredibly easy life and I find those people hard to respect. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 9:42:23 AM EDT
[#33]
Oh yes, there are those out there who do it for no other reason than the power, prestige and $. Unfortunately just like all other things, those are the ones who get the media coverage. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 9:52:28 AM EDT
[#34]
<Blazing Saddles ON> Charlie : "They said you was hung!" Sherrif Bart: "And they wuz Right!" <Blazing Saddles OFF> |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 11:34:01 AM EDT
[#35]
I know this comment is a little off topic, but since we do separate church and government why do churches get any kind of tax exemption? Where is it written that freedom of worship=freedom from taxation? Back on topic, it's apparant that this "man of God" is too used to getting his boots licked by the local politicals, which is why he takes such umbrage over a parking ticket. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 11:38:14 AM EDT
[#36]
I don't know....why don't you ask the founding fathers? After all, they are the ones who were in the state and local governments that didn't tax churches. Perhaps they thought it was a good idea. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 12:05:21 PM EDT
[#37]
To promote the general welfare. Give a little, get a lot. Exponential return on investment. And then a cottage industry sprung up around it. And now that cottage has become a castle.
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Posted: 11/2/2006 12:17:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Is it a specifc mandate in the Constitution that churches are free from taxation? I ask honestly, please direct me to that passage. I thought once any tax exempt entity became partisan, they lost whatever tax exemption they have. When I see Democrats campaign in small black southern churches, or Catholics organizing illegal alien rallies, knowing they have tax exempt status makes my blood boil (FWIW I'm Catholic). |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 12:18:21 PM EDT
[#39]
+1 Don't take your cues from John Kerry and think every word that rolls off your lips is important or helpful. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 12:24:38 PM EDT
[#40]
 |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 12:31:27 PM EDT
[#41]
not wise to give attitude to cops who have too much power to FU your life... ("too much power" - note that please)
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Posted: 11/2/2006 12:34:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Let's see parked in front of a bus stop. Then moves the car when the police arrice. Then is issued a parking citation. Hmmm, seems like that is what you would expect to happen. He got caught. That he moved the car when the police arrived didn't change the fact he had been illegally parked. Nextly, as I understand Mayor Bloomberg's policies, he has pushed for higher fines on citations, and encouraged NYPD to write more citations. Funny, after asking for more citations he folds as soon as someone complains they got a citation. Two faced weasel. The officer saying "attitude", perhaps the Rev. didn't seem as non-plussed as he claims. Either way, the officer should've kept the comment to themself. If the Rev. asked why he was getting a parking citation, the answer could be "because I just observed your car illegally parked". |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 1:03:29 PM EDT
[#43]
I live in truly frightening times. I find myself in complete agreement with OLY-M4gery!!! |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 1:59:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Hell yeah! You're missing the fact that he is buds with the mayor. Those cops should know better than to give tickets to the mayor's buds, talk about your career limiting moves. |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 4:14:45 PM EDT
[#45]
It isn't in the Constitution...like a lot of other common sense things.
Churches cannot be political organizations. They cannot, for instance, raise money for candidates. But they can speak out on issues of import and be active, and that is exactly how the Founders would have things. After all, churches played an important role in our founding.
Free speech is free speech. I don't think a church should lose its tax exempt status just because Bill Clinton gives a speech there, or because they are on the wrong side of issues in my opinion. If they talk more politics than they do Jesus, then revoke their tax exemption. Otherwise... |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 4:16:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Not just "someone". A "someone" with some clout. One of the illuminati of New York society...you know, the ones who are always wanting more laws against ordinary joes but who react like Dracula to a cross at the suggestion that they should obey the laws too?? |
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Posted: 11/2/2006 9:00:58 PM EDT
[#47]
I think that pretty well sums things up........... |
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