Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and.. Thats called the American Dream. Anyone that works hard for a living in a skilled trade, including yourself deserve to live it. I think the "skilled" part is being called into question. Carpentry is a skill, running heavy equipment is a skill, metalsmithing or ironworking is a skill, reading a blueprint, building a car ( or a mechanic ), Heavy labor is a skill as far as Im concerned. Someone who breaks their back deserves a living wage. They deserve if they work hard to have a vehicle qand afford to maintain it  to drive to work. A place to sleep at night and nourishment as well as maybe a vacation once in a great while,.. To say otherwise is a class warfare far left ideology. Shouldnt a conservative mindset reward hard working people at least enough to get by in an expensive economy? Its real simple, it comes down to the cost of living. Hard working people deserve to at least get by in it, do they not? Heavy labor I don't consider a skill, but metalwork, welding, plumbing, electrical work, carpentry/masonry, flying a plane, sailing a boat I do.  Actually, I consider them trades. Lifting a mower deck onto an assembly line, pulling a tire from a mold, pushing a cart filled with metal/rubber scrap, among others are not skilled labor and certainly not trades. I was a damn good truck loader at one time.  I worked my ass off on those frozen/cold-as-hell docks.  I stacked 'em quick, in a stable fashion, and most importantly...in the correct stop sequence.  My counterpart called in sick on occasion, fucked stuff up, and generally did a half-assed job.  I got a raise and he didn't after 6 months.  Fact is, the SOAB should've been fired, but he wasn't due to affirmative action

I can appreciate your perspective. My point was though that people that work heavy labor at least deserve a living wage. Do they not? When I was in the trades the Laborers were paid commensurately to the other trades. ie i was an Ironworker making 19$ an hour at the time and Laborers made 14$

Quoted: I worked as a NON union electrician for 18 yrs, before joining the Union. I have Diplomas, state licenses, etc.., and a vast amount of "on the job" experience. I take offense at the folks who would call me "uneducated" because I lack a college diploma, or because I didn't spend thousands on such an education. I provide a service to many college educated advanced degree holders who have no clue about what I do, or what it takes to do it. Do you know how many very wealthy people, degreed people, have no clue how to reset a simple breaker in their electrical box? Some folks don't know what a blown fuse looks like. Some people are just downright scared to go near electricity, except to plug or unplug something. I provide a service that could save your life, or your family's lives. I build the businesses that you college people earn your living in. Where would you work without skilled tradesmen building your office buildings. Where would you go to play with your riches, without highly skilled men and women, building these resorts and vacation spots? You need highly skilled tradesmen, that you can trust and have confidence in. If a plumber makes a mistake, get a mop. If a carpenter makes a mistake, cut another piece of wood. If I make a mistake, I could burn down your house or business, possibly kill your family, and possibly cause you financial ruin. How dare anyone tell me that I am UNskilled, or overpaid? I've put in my time, (19 yrs), I've paid my dues. So, why do I not deserve a good wage and health insurance? Why can I not have a pension plan? Am I not allowed to plan for my future, after working? I pay into my pension, and my Health and Welfare funds. I sweat at work. I have bled at work. I bust my ass to put food on the table for my family, and to provide them with many things that I never had as a kid. Now, I'm some kind of chump for being in a Union? Bullshit! In 18 yrs as a non-union guy, I had health insurance for about 4 of those years, and had 2 paid vacations. IN EIGHTEEN YEARS!  I guess when someone gives their all to an employer, they deserve NOTHING but a paycheck in return. I have seen many Union guys that fit the fat, lazy stereotype quite well. We need to change that, no doubt. But don't group all of the Unions together, because we are all different.

Nobody called you uneducated or unskilled...at least it didn't come from me.

OTOH, wages should be determined by the market.  If you bring a desirable skillset to the market then you're paid on a level commensurate with demand for your skills.

Unions artificially inflate wages despite what the market can bear.

Quoted: Quoted: I worked as a NON union electrician for 18 yrs, before joining the Union. I have Diplomas, state licenses, etc.., and a vast amount of "on the job" experience. I take offense at the folks who would call me "uneducated" because I lack a college diploma, or because I didn't spend thousands on such an education. I provide a service to many college educated advanced degree holders who have no clue about what I do, or what it takes to do it. Do you know how many very wealthy people, degreed people, have no clue how to reset a simple breaker in their electrical box? Some folks don't know what a blown fuse looks like. Some people are just downright scared to go near electricity, except to plug or unplug something. I provide a service that could save your life, or your family's lives. I build the businesses that you college people earn your living in. Where would you work without skilled tradesmen building your office buildings. Where would you go to play with your riches, without highly skilled men and women, building these resorts and vacation spots? You need highly skilled tradesmen, that you can trust and have confidence in. If a plumber makes a mistake, get a mop. If a carpenter makes a mistake, cut another piece of wood. If I make a mistake, I could burn down your house or business, possibly kill your family, and possibly cause you financial ruin. How dare anyone tell me that I am UNskilled, or overpaid? I've put in my time, (19 yrs), I've paid my dues. So, why do I not deserve a good wage and health insurance? Why can I not have a pension plan? Am I not allowed to plan for my future, after working? I pay into my pension, and my Health and Welfare funds. I sweat at work. I have bled at work. I bust my ass to put food on the table for my family, and to provide them with many things that I never had as a kid. Now, I'm some kind of chump for being in a Union? Bullshit! In 18 yrs as a non-union guy, I had health insurance for about 4 of those years, and had 2 paid vacations. IN EIGHTEEN YEARS!  I guess when someone gives their all to an employer, they deserve NOTHING but a paycheck in return. I have seen many Union guys that fit the fat, lazy stereotype quite well. We need to change that, no doubt. But don't group all of the Unions together, because we are all different. All perfectly true--and I agree completely.  The knowledgeable ones here will always give high regards to the Trade unions--while having complete disdain for the shop and .gov unions.  I'd bet you agree--or at least understand why.

I understand totally. And I don't understand the guy who makes $28 an hour to screw in the same four bolts on a chassis assembly line all day long, day after day. That's why I say all unions are different.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I worked as a NON union electrician for 18 yrs, before joining the Union. I have Diplomas, state licenses, etc.., and a vast amount of "on the job" experience. I take offense at the folks who would call me "uneducated" because I lack a college diploma, or because I didn't spend thousands on such an education. I provide a service to many college educated advanced degree holders who have no clue about what I do, or what it takes to do it. Do you know how many very wealthy people, degreed people, have no clue how to reset a simple breaker in their electrical box? Some folks don't know what a blown fuse looks like. Some people are just downright scared to go near electricity, except to plug or unplug something. I provide a service that could save your life, or your family's lives. I build the businesses that you college people earn your living in. Where would you work without skilled tradesmen building your office buildings. Where would you go to play with your riches, without highly skilled men and women, building these resorts and vacation spots? You need highly skilled tradesmen, that you can trust and have confidence in. If a plumber makes a mistake, get a mop. If a carpenter makes a mistake, cut another piece of wood. If I make a mistake, I could burn down your house or business, possibly kill your family, and possibly cause you financial ruin. How dare anyone tell me that I am UNskilled, or overpaid? I've put in my time, (19 yrs), I've paid my dues. So, why do I not deserve a good wage and health insurance? Why can I not have a pension plan? Am I not allowed to plan for my future, after working? I pay into my pension, and my Health and Welfare funds. I sweat at work. I have bled at work. I bust my ass to put food on the table for my family, and to provide them with many things that I never had as a kid. Now, I'm some kind of chump for being in a Union? Bullshit! In 18 yrs as a non-union guy, I had health insurance for about 4 of those years, and had 2 paid vacations. IN EIGHTEEN YEARS!  I guess when someone gives their all to an employer, they deserve NOTHING but a paycheck in return. I have seen many Union guys that fit the fat, lazy stereotype quite well. We need to change that, no doubt. But don't group all of the Unions together, because we are all different. All perfectly true--and I agree completely.  The knowledgeable ones here will always give high regards to the Trade unions--while having complete disdain for the shop and .gov unions.  I'd bet you agree--or at least understand why.   I understand totally. And I don't understand the guy who makes $28 an hour to screw in the same four bolts on a chassis assembly line all day long, day after day. That's why I say all unions are different.

"The guy" you referenced is the "the guy" this debate is about...at least for me.

I don't agree with any form of wage fixing.  I think trade unions are necessary as an organization because they insure that trade labor complies with proper training and education guidelines.  They prevent Jimbob from claiming to be an "electriplumbpenter" with forged certificates.  My cousin is a pipe-fitter, we argue frequently about unions...the above reason is, to me, valid for their continued existence.

I kind of think of them as a check and balance. Corporations otherwise would work us for a 1$ a day. Isnt our way of life and the good thing about America the checks and balances we have?

Collective bargaining takes into account the cost of material and labor and output by workers along with profit for the company they are working for when making an agreement.

It is silly to think that a Union worker would want to price himself out of a job by pricing the company he is working for out of the market.

If this was the case there would be no more unions because the companies they work for would have gone out of business.

Quoted: I kind of think of them as a check and balance. Corporations otherwise would work us for a 1$ a day. Isnt our way of life and the good thing about America the checks and balances we have? Collective bargaining takes into account the cost of material and labor and output by workers along with profit for the company they are working for when making an agreement. It is silly to think that a Union worker would want to price himself out of a job by pricing the company he is working for out of the market. If this was the case there would be no more unions because the companies they work for would have gone out of business.

During the early 20th and late 19th centuries that was true; America's huge influx of immigrants provided a virtually unending labor supply.  They did work for $1 a day (and less I'm sure) because they couldn't speak/read english, didn't understand capitalism, and had to compete with a laborforce of rural Americans moving to the urban centers for work.  Immigrants with a trade valued in the US set up shop as they did at "home"...and fared better.

Collective bargaining worked for those people as did US anti-trust laws/federal legislation.

Competition among companies will drive them hire the most efficient and most experienced workers for production.  In order to retain those valued employees, the company will pay them in accordance to their "value".  

As long as competition exists, so will fair wages.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Even at $10 an hour, US labor can not compete with the slave labor over seas.  Or the low wages in Mexico. This is true only if American labor produces equal-to-overseas products. But for years (some say a decade) we've seen US-produced goods (automobiles for one) suffer in quality even though the labor union assures us that they're "the best". Domestic auto manufacturers quality has suffered so much, the US consumer isn't buying them. Our workers are paid 9 times as much, but produce the same or substandard products.

You need to differentiate between the manufacturing 'quality' - ie the assembly line builds it to print every time - and design 'quality' that the manufacturing line really has no control over.  The US auto industry is in its current situation because of the failures of ALL parties involved.

Brian

Unions need to get slashed down to size the same way abusive corporations were and are. That would solve the problem.

Something tells me the big government types at the unions would object, though. Socialists always love big government until it sets its sights on them.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Even at $10 an hour, US labor can not compete with the slave labor over seas.  Or the low wages in Mexico. This is true only if American labor produces equal-to-overseas products. But for years (some say a decade) we've seen US-produced goods (automobiles for one) suffer in quality even though the labor union assures us that they're "the best". Domestic auto manufacturers quality has suffered so much, the US consumer isn't buying them. Our workers are paid 9 times as much, but produce the same or substandard products. You need to differentiate between the manufacturing 'quality' - ie the assembly line builds it to print every time - and design 'quality' that the manufacturing line really has no control over.  The US auto industry is in its current situation because of the failures of ALL parties involved. Brian

agreed and that was pointed out last page.

Not enough US kids becoming engineers or sticking with the hard sciences.  

That's it?

Quoted: That's it?

Don't think I made that assertion once in this thread, but I agree the connection some have made is tenuous.