Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've got all 3. Go with the AR-10 for ergonomics and ease of mounting optics. It's pretty easy to mount optics on the FAL, you know, and it doesn't even necessitate getting a flattop upper like you have to get with an AR15/10. Just buy an extreme mount from DSA and voila! img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Guns/FAL18.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Guns/FAL15.jpg An AR10 or 15 does not require a flattop for optics.  You can easily mount optics on a carry handle. This is true, but I do so like flattop AR15/AR10's.  Besides I have never used the carry handle on my AR15 and I doubt I ever will.

I have A2s and A4s.  I was just pointing out the fallacy of the remark about having to have an A4 to mount optics.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've got all 3. Go with the AR-10 for ergonomics and ease of mounting optics. It's pretty easy to mount optics on the FAL, you know, and it doesn't even necessitate getting a flattop upper like you have to get with an AR15/10. Just buy an extreme mount from DSA and voila! img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Guns/FAL18.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Guns/FAL15.jpg An AR10 or 15 does not require a flattop for optics.  You can easily mount optics on a carry handle. This is true, but I do so like flattop AR15/AR10's.  Besides I have never used the carry handle on my AR15 and I doubt I ever will. I have A2s and A4s.  I was just pointing out the fallacy of the remark about having to have an A4 to mount optics.

Having used the carry handle mount for a scope on my A2 I can tell you without a doubt it is not the way I would prefer to mount one.  Now, how much does a flat top upper cost anyway?  I'll bet the DSA mount costs as much if not more.

Now my vote probably goes to the FAL.  I like the adjustable gas system.  Want low recoil at the bench?  Crank it down.  Want to get the brass out no matter what?  Crank it up.  That would seem like an advantage when parts are getting dry, and carbon is building up everywhere and dirt is getting in it.

I'd not turn down an AR-10 either though.  I came close to buying one after having shot it and I may yet add one to my collection.  For long range accuracy I'm positive it will take the cake for the price.

Quoted: Quoted: Pfft....a FAL from DSA costs $1600+. Worth every penny of it!

Larry, where'd you get your AR10's from?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've got all 3. Go with the AR-10 for ergonomics and ease of mounting optics. It's pretty easy to mount optics on the FAL, you know, and it doesn't even necessitate getting a flattop upper like you have to get with an AR15/10. Just buy an extreme mount from DSA and voila! img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Guns/FAL18.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Guns/FAL15.jpg An AR10 or 15 does not require a flattop for optics.  You can easily mount optics on a carry handle. This is true, but I do so like flattop AR15/AR10's.  Besides I have never used the carry handle on my AR15 and I doubt I ever will. I have A2s and A4s.  I was just pointing out the fallacy of the remark about having to have an A4 to mount optics.

Roger.

I have a Springfield Armory mid 80's NM M1A, it is a nice rifle and would fit your needs fine, plinking and would be a good deer rifle.  I don't know about the new ones. Fairly light, good accuracy, easy to clean. Mags are about $25 for good ones and it takes awhile to get use to the rear sight adjustment

I also have a DSA Stg58, great rifle, would also fit your needs fine.

AR-10, no comment, I have never fired one, however alot of people like them and if you are already comfortable with the platform might be a good choice.

Quoted: Then why is AR10 getting pumbled in the poll? Too expensive, too finicky, expensive mags, inaccurate?

Too many internet stories, I suspect.

Since you don't know my background, I don't know why this carries any water but:

I wanted a .308- wanted it before the Demtards get back in and ef things up again. I handled all 3 of your choices before I made my decision.

Since I have an AR I considered an AR10, since some of the parts are common (or at least they were when Bushmaster was making them). But Bushmaster couldn't make them fly and dropped them. Maybe Armalite can do a better job. I figured the caliber might be too robust for the caliber, so I passed.

M1A Scout. I've read some slams here from people who have them. Accuracy is "ok". Not familiar with the platform and didn't want to learn- you may enjoy the opportunity. Not a great platform for optics, which I enjoy tinkering with. 18" barrel- I have a need for speed. Wanted 20-21."

FAL- wasn't familiar with the platform, but I researched it, and it's pretty simple. Easy to maintain. Have to stock whole different set of parts, couple of tools. DSA has a good rep for quality, although their customer service (communication, accuracy on delivery, etc.) is a little laid back. So.........

I ordered

SA58 Standard, para stock and scope mount.

1670.00 delivered (I ordered it early Nov 05, received late Feb 06). I got a bi pod to fool around with so it would be less if you dropped it, although I think they have increased their prices a bit since I ordered. I went through their catalog and picked up another 300 bucks worth of parts and knicknacks. That was early LAST week, and my CC still hasn't been charged. If you need anything from them build in LOTS of lead time. Get parts BEFORE you need them. I just regard ordering from DSA like I would stuff for SHTF. Easier to get it before you need it.

I've had it to the range twice, breaking in the barrel per their instructions. At 100 yards using the para sights, Pakistani milsurp ammo, crappy lighting conditions and a less than totally focused approach on my part it put 10/10 in a 12" square. I shot another 40 rounds of South African fooling around with a scope I took off my AR. No failures to fire. I'm pleased with it. YMMV.

This is my SHTF rifle

M1A


I like the FAL, but the sights suck

Quoted: Quoted: Must have detachable magazines and flash hider. Also must be 308. Does an M14 qualify as a battle rifle?  Why is it not part of this poll?

Because M14 are rare, machine guns, expensive and very hard to control in FA.
Therefore...M1A

None of those are battle rifles - they are semi-automatic.

I'll take my NFA Beretta BM-59 - very controllable in full-auto.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ....what's wrong with AR10s. Not a damn thing! Then why is AR10 getting pumbled in the poll? Too expensive, too finicky, expensive mags, inaccurate?

 yep, here's an AR10 made 7yrs after mine & they still have these kind of issues



     www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=62&t=271217
the fact these type of threads are not uncommon does little to inspire confidence in the rifle

I thought the Bushmaster .308 would be a good alternative BUT it had problems & the DPMS has had magazine problems too,  maybe  RRA can sort out the Bushmaster design or the new POF .308 may get my $$$$

Know what, Recoiljunky? Go handle all three options at a gun show or store. Take what you've read here into account, but keep your mind open when you're really making the decision.

You may find that the M1a fits you great (it does me, despite everyone saying that the AR is the most ergonomic platform out there... It may well be for most people, but my ARs don't fit me as good as my M1as do). Or you may find that the FAL is perfect for you...

Frankly I think you'd be well served with any of the three options providing you get good examples of each rifle, maybe skewing the decision slightly toward the FAL- I've seen some torture tests on them that would make even an AK say "dang..."

Just curious...why no HK91 option?

FAL

Cheap (cost) gun
Cheap and plentiful mags
Cheap and plentiful spare/aftermarket parts
Great design
Great reliability
Decent accuracy

Quoted: the fact these type of threads are not uncommon does little to inspire confidence in the rifle I thought the Bushmaster .308 would be a good alternative BUT it had problems & the DPMS has had magazine problems too,  maybe  RRA can sort out the Bushmaster design or the new POF .308 may get my $$$$

There is a whole TROUBLESHOOTING FORUM for AR15's with not too uncommon failures as above...

Isn't it ironic that we still buy, and modify, and operate AR15's without hesitation -- even though they suffer the EXACT problems you pictured above.

Funny indeed.

Quoted: Quoted: the fact these type of threads are not uncommon does little to inspire confidence in the rifle I thought the Bushmaster .308 would be a good alternative BUT it had problems & the DPMS has had magazine problems too,  maybe  RRA can sort out the Bushmaster design or the new POF .308 may get my $$$$ There is a whole TROUBLESHOOTING FORUM for AR15's with not too uncommon failures as above... Isn't it ironic that we still buy, and modify, and operate AR15's without hesitation -- even though they suffer the EXACT problems you pictured above. Funny indeed.

I've NEVER had as much trouble with my 7 AR15's as I had with ONE  AR10 rifle.

I've NEVER had as much trouble with my 3 FAL's as I had with one AR10 rifle.

I never had any trouble with my M1A, unlike my AR10A2 rifle.

The only gun I've ever owned that was as problematic as that rifle was a  S&W 40VE .


I'm not just Armalite bashing, I still own & enjoy shooting a scoped Realtree M15A4 carbine
and I still have the origianal lower reciever assembly from a M15A2 rifle I bought the same year
I purchased the AR10A2.  It now serves as the lower for a custom 24" flat-top.

Other than crunchy OEM triggers I've had no problems with either of those Armalite products.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Pfft....a FAL from DSA costs $1600+. Worth every penny of it! Larry, where'd you get your AR10's from?

2 from a shop in Savannah when I lived down there, 1 from my shop up here in the Atl area, and one from a member.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ....what's wrong with AR10s. Not a damn thing! Then why is AR10 getting pumbled in the poll? Too expensive, too finicky, expensive mags, inaccurate?  yep, here's an AR10 made 7yrs after mine & they still have these kind of issues img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/M4-TUNA/DSC00192.jpg      www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=62&t=271217 the fact these type of threads are not uncommon does little to inspire confidence in the rifle I thought the Bushmaster .308 would be a good alternative BUT it had problems & the DPMS has had magazine problems too,  maybe  RRA can sort out the Bushmaster design or the new POF .308 may get my $$$$

Gee, you have one picture........big deal.  No other rifle in the world ever has a problem but the AR10.  If one reads the entire thread, it turns out to be a mag problem.  That's what ArmaLite gets for trying to give their customers 20 rounds mags during the ban............i.e., having to modify an existing mag to do so.

I know it's kind of a hard quality to quantify but FAL's are just great to shoot.  Maybe it depends on how the rifle fits but I can shoot my FAL to about the same degree of accuracy as my AR's.  I know the AR has more inherent accuracy but for standing, sitting, kneeling and any other real-world shooting, accuracy is fine.  There's something about all that Austrian steel moving around that is just really a hoot.  FAL's are smoooooth and absolute bullet firing machines.  Everyone who tries it likes it a lot.  Recoil is very mild.  Also the rifle is thin throughout and for lack of a better word, graceful or lithe.  Just feels right.  The sights, on examination do seem to "suck", yet they are still good for 3 MOA or so.  Maybe they just work for me.  I like AR15's a lot and own several.  I keep them light and simple as 6-7 lb carbines; what I think they are best at.   Even that little scale-up to the AR10 leaves the platform feeling a little "chunky" IMHO.  Plus, everytime I tried one there was some kind of jam, or issue or something.

Custom AR-10!

FAL yes
AR10 yes
M1A scout, maybe. Based on my experience with current SA M1A.
Older models are the exception but my newer M1A SOCOM16 was a POS. It will be a while before I buy any rifle from SA.
My Bushy .308 has been ultra reliable.

Quoted: I've NEVER had as much trouble with my 7 AR15's.....

When I say the same thing about all my AR10's {9} that have come through my possesion, somehow I am minimizing the angst that others feel over their ONE malfunctioning AR-10.

My point is that there are pages and pages and pages and pages of AR15 failures....

Yet they are a preferred weapon system here.

Then you get one topic every month or so that has a clusterfucked AR-10 and suddenly it's the end of the world, AR-10's are shit, etc, etc, etc......

I find it hypocritical, in the extreme.

....but I'm biased.

Quoted: Since you don't know my background, I don't know why this carries any water but: I wanted a .308- wanted it before the Demtards get back in and ef things up again. I handled all 3 of your choices before I made my decision. Since I have an AR I considered an AR10, since some of the parts are common (or at least they were when Bushmaster was making them). But Bushmaster couldn't make them fly and dropped them. Maybe Armalite can do a better job. I figured the caliber might be too robust for the caliber, so I passed. .

Bushmaster never did make an AR10, period.

The parts commonality with the Bushie .308 was LESS than with the ArmaLite AR10.

ArmaLite HAS done a better job.  Some of these comments make it sound like Bushie came out with a .308 AR first and ArmaLite is just getting started.  Sheesh.

My 4 say that the caliber is not too robust for the platform.

Quoted: Quoted: Then why is AR10 getting pumbled in the poll? Too expensive, too finicky, expensive mags, inaccurate? Too many internet stories, I suspect.

I particularly liked the "inaccurate" part.

Quoted: Quoted: Since you don't know my background, I don't know why this carries any water but: I wanted a .308- wanted it before the Demtards get back in and ef things up again. I handled all 3 of your choices before I made my decision. Since I have an AR I considered an AR10, since some of the parts are common (or at least they were when Bushmaster was making them). But Bushmaster couldn't make them fly and dropped them. Maybe Armalite can do a better job. I figured the caliber might be too robust for the caliber, so I passed. . Bushmaster never did make an AR10, period. The parts commonality with the Bushie .308 was LESS than with the ArmaLite AR10. ArmaLite HAS done a better job.  Some of these comments make it sound like Bushie came out with a .308 AR first and ArmaLite is just getting started.  Sheesh. My 4 say that the caliber is not too robust for the platform.

I was just about to point out those backwards statements.   good call.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then why is AR10 getting pumbled in the poll? Too expensive, too finicky, expensive mags, inaccurate? Too many internet stories, I suspect. I particularly liked the "inaccurate" part.

Yeah, the AR platform has been a real accuracy looser alright.

FAL all the way baby!

Sorry, M1A = no pistol grip= not an option.

And I love FALs.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then why is AR10 getting pumbled in the poll? Too expensive, too finicky, expensive mags, inaccurate? Too many internet stories, I suspect. I particularly liked the "inaccurate" part. Yeah, the AR platform has been a real accuracy looser alright.

Hey guys, I was just trying to feed some educated discussion. Not the "(insert design here) sucks" or "(insert model here) beats the others hands down" replies I was getting. Truth is, few people have backed up their opinions with any reasoning here.

I already own a Scout clone. It's pieced together from various parts (some GI, some not) and bought from another member of this forum. I also already own an AR. My buddy loves my Scout but wants to know if he should buy one like it, or a AR10. I brought up the option of the FAL. I've shot a couple of FALs and liked them. I've never shot an AR10. So, I don't really have a dog in the fight, but I am interested in the reasoning behind picking one choice over the other.

I like the ergonomics of the M1A. I like the sights. I like the fit and finish.

I do not like the optics interface. I'm sure it's fine and I know it has been discussed before, but I just can't mount a 300+ eothing on top of a rail that gets too hot to touch. I used to work on electronics, so I just can't do it.

More discussion please.

Recoiljunky:

Don't worry about topping your Scout with an EOTech... Over on the M14 forums a guy wrote directly to EOTech and their reply was something along the lines of "...We designed them to be used on machine guns, etc., the heat isn't a problem..." Basically the issue is battery chemistry/getting too hot not the actual electronics getting overheated.

I personally use an EO on my Scout and like it. Rapid fire (210 rounds in fairly rapid order) I did see heat shimmer in the window but all was well.

Edit: It piqued my curiosity to go look it up...

Thank you for your questions and interest in EOTech.  Our product is designed to handle the heat generated from the barrel of a full auto machine gun.  It is tested to withstand temperatures up to 160 deg F (70 deg C).  The only issue that can arise is the type of battery used.  Most batteries can only withstand temperatures up to 130 deg F.  So a sight failure can happen, but it will typically be due to excessive heat to the batteries.   Placing the sight forward like you mentioned on the M1A will generate quite a bit of heat, but the sight can handle it.  I would recommend using Energizer Lithium batteries to reduce the possibility of battery leaks due to excessive heat.

It put my mind at east. Whole thread here

Quoted: Recoiljunky: Don't worry about topping your Scout with an EOTech... Over on the M14 forums a guy wrote directly to EOTech and their reply was something along the lines of "...We designed them to be used on machine guns, etc., the heat isn't a problem..." Basically the issue is battery chemistry/getting too hot not the actual electronics getting overheated. I personally use an EO on my Scout and like it. Rapid fire (210 rounds in fairly rapid order) I did see heat shimmer in the window but all was well. Edit: It piqued my curiosity to go look it up... Thank you for your questions and interest in EOTech.  Our product is designed to handle the heat generated from the barrel of a full auto machine gun.  It is tested to withstand temperatures up to 160 deg F (70 deg C).  The only issue that can arise is the type of battery used.  Most batteries can only withstand temperatures up to 130 deg F.  So a sight failure can happen, but it will typically be due to excessive heat to the batteries.   Placing the sight forward like you mentioned on the M1A will generate quite a bit of heat, but the sight can handle it.  I would recommend using Energizer Lithium batteries to reduce the possibility of battery leaks due to excessive heat.   It put my mind at east. Whole thread here

I may have to give it a try then. My AR is going to feel naked though.

Also, the eotech does not cowitness with the M1A's irons.

Quoted: How many times have we seen these polls?  How many times more are we going to have to view another FAL victory?  The Right Arm of the Free World didn't get that way by being a reworked Garand.

The M1 Garand Freed Europe and Asia...so in Reality...it is the Right Arm of the Free World.

Quoted: FAL Cheap (cost) gun Cheap and plentiful mags Cheap and plentiful spare/aftermarket parts Great design Great reliability Decent accuracy

M1 Garand...price is right especially for a CMP Rifle.
Mags? Mags? We don't need no Stinkin Mags! En Bloc Clips...Cheaper than Mags
Lots of spare parts for the Garand...
Great Design...worked well in Muddy Jungles, Sandy Beaches, and in the Snow..
Great in terms of Durability...very good for Butt Swiping
Great in terms of Reliability
Fair Accuracy..

Quoted: Quoted: FAL Cheap (cost) gun Cheap and plentiful mags Cheap and plentiful spare/aftermarket parts Great design Great reliability Decent accuracy M1 Garand...price is right especially for a CMP Rifle. Mags? Mags? We don't need no Stinkin Mags! En Bloc Clips...Cheaper than Mags Lots of spare parts for the Garand... Great Design...worked well in Muddy Jungles, Sandy Beaches, and in the Snow.. Great in terms of Durability...very good for Butt Swiping Great in terms of Reliability Fair Accuracy..

AR10, M1A Scout, or FAL.

Pick one of the three choices that's it.

I have all three.  FAL is my favorite.

Easy. FAL.
Cheapest, easiest to maintain, cheapest and most plentiful mags, and plenty accurate if you get a good one (which will still be much cheaper than either of the other two options).

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then why is AR10 getting pumbled in the poll? Too expensive, too finicky, expensive mags, inaccurate? Too many internet stories, I suspect. I particularly liked the "inaccurate" part.

Dude, relax. He was asking a question, not making a statement. Hence the ?

I am in the same boat so this thread comes at a good time for me...

Quoted: FAL Cheap (cost) gun Cheap and plentiful mags Cheap and plentiful spare/aftermarket parts Great design Great reliability Decent accuracy

From what reading I've done (before finding this thread), the FAL seems like the right way to go, for me and my needs\desires, based off of the same points that TRW listed.

A couple of you guys are obviously very fond of your AR10s. That's cool but instead of getting all upset and telling us how many you own, how about you explain why you feel the AR10 is the superior platform? From what I've read, it seems to me that they basically really only have 2 things going for them. Accuracy and familiarity for people who are already trained with the AR15. What am I missing? Why do you guys who voted for the AR10 feel that it is the better way to go?