Quoted:     Let me ask you a question. There are probably thousands of instructors in the US. Do they all use the same methods?

No, some do really wierd and stupid stuff, like Gabe Suarez who has people fling bullets past his head so he can "remember what combat feels like".

Now QUALITY instructors, on the other hand, largely teach the same basic stuff....because the same basic stuff keeps getting proved over and over again in actual combat situations.

If they don't, are they all wrong if they don't agree with your methods?

Again, quality instructors will tell you the same things I have told you: Sight alignment, trigger control, and that doing all of that under stress is harder than you think.

Now their individual methods of accomplishing this may differ. They may not use 8" and 3" dots, they may use all shillouettes, or they may spend more time on weak hand shooting or even skip weak hand shooting altogether. They may concentrate on shooting steel or may never shoot steel. They may have you use a pistol on a carbine range to get the experience, or they may never have you use a handgun beyond 25 yards because they think time is better spent on more likely threat profiles...

All based on what they feel is the best way to make someone able to defend themselves in a combat situation.

But they are ALWAYS going to do training at close range, including 7 yards or even CLOSER than that. Why? Because students need to see that hits are NOT automatic at close range, ESPECIALLY under stressful situations.

In fact, the longer the distance, the more room for error you have.

Don't get me wrong. I am not attacking your ability or your knowledge. I just think your pretty close minded.

I *am* pretty closed minded.

I am only interested in what works.

Quoted: Most Self defense Handgun engagements happend inside 21 feet (7 Yards).

Right answer.

Quoted:      Of course, the fundamentals will be the same. Thats why they call them fundamentals.

No, they won't.

There are some instructors who teach that it is "impossible" to see your sights in a stressful situation.

Those people are WRONG.

It seems like this particular argument about "You don't know me or how well I handle stress" almost always comes from shooters that have little if any quality professional instruction. The mere act of the instructor bringing out the timer can be enough to make even experienced shooters fuck the cat.
Of course if you are never really tested you can believe whatever you want and never be proven wrong. The flip side is that after some quality training you see shooting in a way that you would have never seen it had you not trained.
When someone like JohnWayne777 expresses an opinion, or any other number of members on this board that shoot for a living, or spend a lot of time training with professional shooters, they are passing on information that has been tried and proven for the most part. It is not some internet commando's opinion at that point because they learned these things from actual commandos who physically showed them the technique or concept. These ideas are proven on the range and on the battlefield.

I can't tell you how shocked I was by what I didn't know about shooting after attending my first professional training course. I would have never beleived it without seeing it.

Quoted: blackeye, you've been on this forum longer than I, but in my short time here, I've quickly learned that J_W777's "opinion" is like a 24k Gold Diamond Studded butthole that spews rubies and emeralds and all sorts of other precious gems.  Not everyone has that

?????

WWJD? is really shorthand for "What Would John_Wayne777 Do? " Listen to his advice he means well.

There are a whole lot of things I don't know. But there are a couple of things I have learned because I have spent a considerable ammount of time, energy, and money to learn them real good.

That doesn't make me a tactical god, nor do I claim to be one.

How about dry firing?  Does that help as much as it does with a rifle?

Quoted: Quoted: <Snip> Opinions are like buttholes, everybodys got one. blackeye, you've been on this forum longer than I, but in my short time here, I've quickly learned that J_W777's "opinion" is like a 24k Gold Diamond Studded butthole that spews rubies and emeralds and all sorts of other precious gems.  Not everyone has that WWJD? is really shorthand for "What Would John_Wayne777 Do? " Listen to his advice he means well.

Well there's a mental image I didn't need.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:   15 yds is my "magic distance"   If I can hit at 15, I can hit at 25. Anything closer is cheating. No, it isn't. I guarantee you that I could put you 5 yards away from a target and stress you to the point where you would completely miss it.    You make broad assumptions without even knowing me.    I focus when I get pissed. Being stressed pisses me off. Go away, Then you are going to be the one dying.

   Ahhhh, someone must have left the gate open this morning. Someone else making broad assumptions. Maybe I am different, I don't know. But in stressful situations, my heart seems to slow down and my focus is crystal clear.
    I can very easily see John_Wayne777 setting up a course that shakes people up and tests their ability to focus. It would be excellent training. It would make an excellent shooter that couldn't handle stress very well turn into a bad shooter. But someone who is an average shooter at best and could handle stress. Would smoke the other shooter mentioned in this particular training exercise.

    Yes I will die one day. But not because I lost my focus.

Quoted: Quoted:      Of course, the fundamentals will be the same. Thats why they call them fundamentals. No, they won't. There are some instructors who teach that it is "impossible" to see your sights in a stressful situation. Those people are WRONG.

I have never understood that school of thought.  While precise sight alignment may not be "practical" in all situations, it is certainly not impossible.

For example, when shooting USPSA or IDPA, you don't need precise sight alignment to get double alphas on 5-7 yd targets, just put the front sight on it and squeeze. Try that at 15-25 yds, however, and you're screwed.

CO

Quoted: How about dry firing?  Does that help as much as it does with a rifle?

Dry firing can indeed be helpful....IF you maintain proper form and trigger control.

If, however, you start to have bad trigger control, dry firing won't show it. You won't be able to tell that you have been ingraning bad habits until you shoot paper again.

Quoted: Quoted:      Of course, the fundamentals will be the same. Thats why they call them fundamentals. No, they won't. There are some instructors who teach that it is "impossible" to see your sights in a stressful situation. Those people are WRONG.

         I thought the fundamentals to shooting a handgun were:

      Stance
      Grip
      Sight Alignment
      Breath Control
      Trigger squeeze


       Oh nevermind, you are talking about fundamentals for something different. My bad. My comment that you quoted was based on the fundamentals to shooting a handgun.

       So in your opinion, point shooting (not using your sights) is wrong?



     

Quoted:          I thought the fundamentals to shooting a handgun were:       Stance       Grip       Sight Alignment       Breath Control       Trigger squeeze

No.

Stance can go away. Stress courses are DESIGNED to take it away from you.

Grip can go away due to injury or conditions. (mud, blood, etc...)

Breath control.....you don't really need to control breathing with a handgun.

Sight alignment and trigger control, however, you MUST have if you are going to make accurate hits. You can take away everything else or compromise everything else and still make accurate shots.

THAT is what stress courses are designed to do. And THAT is why most people miss when they do stress courses, because all the crutches are removed and you have to depend completely on the sights and your control of the trigger, neither of which is easy without the other stuff.

I can draw and make hits on a target at close range with my eyes closed if I can have my stance.

In a real fight, however, I most likely won't have all those neat factors going for me.

Oh nevermind, you are talking about fundamentals for something different.

No, I am talking about the REAL fundamentals...the two you cannot make hits without.

Like I said: I can strip you of what you think the "fundamentals" are and THEN you will find out what is really important.

So in your opinion, point shooting (not using your sights) is wrong?

If the threat is within arm's distance, you don't have the luxry of using your sights.

If, however, it is not, then you should use your sights. It is the only way I know of to see where your rounds are going to hit, and the closer the threat is the less you can afford to miss.

Quoted: Well that depends, doesn't it? Drawing from a side holster open carry is a different world from concealed carry positions with variants such as clothing.

Yes, concealed carry does add a layer of complexity, and folks should practice retrieving their weapon from whatever carry method they use.

Personally I only carry with an IWB or OWB holster with a covering garnment and a pocket holster for my BUG.

I can get a weapon out of the holsters plenty quick enough.

If you have never practiced drawing from concealment, it is a good idea to practice it. Eventually you will build muscle memory and will be able to draw without thought.

IMHO, for the average Joe on the street, NOT practicing drawing and firing could be a deadly mistake.

It would indeed be a deadly mistake. One needs to know how to get their weapon out and put a round on target with it.

No two ways about it.

But getting the gun out of the holster as quickly as possible isn't always the best way to achieve that goal. Proper form and smooth motion is always faster than hurried motions from an "OMYGAWDIGOTTAGETMYGUNOUTNNNNOOOWWW" mentality.

And from talking with lots of guys who have been in actual fights, including police officers with retention holsters, getting the gun out was never mentioned once as the big concern they had.

People tend to go a little nuts on the fast draw stuff. It is good to have a fast draw, but it is more important to have a proper draw. You can obtain both with proper practice. Muscle memory is a beautiful thing. Practice from your carry rig is essential in my opinion.

For the average citizen, the odds are highest if they need their firearm, it will not be at distance but in their face.  Non-LEOs are not charged with apprehension so their need is truly defensive in nature with the odds highest the badguy having the first move.

All true. Most gunfights, even LEO gunfights, are close, nasty, and short. People need to be prepared for the up close and personal nature of most gunfights.

Even more importantly, they need to be taught to recognize the attack coming and be taught how to avoid it altogether if at all possible.

I personaly find from a concealed positon achieving 1.5 seconds including reaction time to be one hell of hard goal. It is one thing to know the "Go" is coming and another not to know.  On the range we tend to anticipate.

The key is to train people not just in the manipulation of the weapon, but in being able to see the "go" coming on the street as well.

Situational awareness is a far more valuable skill than a quick draw time. A keen sense of what is happening around you is bar none THE best weapon there is.

Quoted: It seems like this particular argument about "You don't know me or how well I handle stress" almost always comes from shooters that have little if any quality professional instruction. The mere act of the instructor bringing out the timer can be enough to make even experienced shooters fuck the cat.

  This is an interesting statement. I agree that if you can't handle stress and shoot very well. That you need some training to get your "nerves" under control. We certainly don't want a bunch of "Barney Fife's" representing gun owners or law enforcement.

   I have learned to enjoy stress. It makes me think better.





   

I find 29 yards is the best distance! When laying out your targes I find it more accurate to use feet rather than yards for my measurement.

Quoted: Sight alignment and trigger control, however, you MUST have if you are going to make accurate hits. You can take away everything else or compromise everything else and still make accurate shots.

    I do alot of moving while shooting and alot of odd positions when I practice. I also keep try to keep my heart rate up.  So your statement above is more than accurate for me.

    However, any shooting I do upclose (arm length to about 7 yards) is point shooting. Any reason I should change?  If a threat is that close and moving toward you. You really don't have time to get a good sight picture, right? Oh and I am only talking COM hits not one hole marksmenship.

Quoted:     However, any shooting I do upclose (arm length to about 7 yards) is point shooting. Any reason I should change?  If a threat is that close and moving toward you. You really don't have time to get a good sight picture, right? Oh and I am only talking COM hits not one hole marksmenship.

You *do* have time to get a "good enough" sight picture.

Understand that you might not have a picture perfect bullseye sight picture, but you still can use your sights at close range as an index to make a good accurate shot.

The question here is not do you have time to get a good sight picture, it is can you afford to miss...

At very close ranges I don't have a picture perfect sight picture...but I *do* see my front sight clearly and I *do* use it to make aimed shots that go exactly where I want them.

For practical pistol practice accuracy, I don't know why you want to practice at targets 25 to 50 yards out when a stage isn't going to have targets that far away.

EDIT - does the original poster want to practice for practical pistol USPSA/IPSC competitions or just self-defense practice?

Quoted: Quoted:     However, any shooting I do upclose (arm length to about 7 yards) is point shooting. Any reason I should change?  If a threat is that close and moving toward you. You really don't have time to get a good sight picture, right? Oh and I am only talking COM hits not one hole marksmenship. You *do* have time to get a "good enough" sight picture. Understand that you might not have a picture perfect bullseye sight picture, but you still can use your sights at close range as an index to make a good accurate shot. The question here is not do you have time to get a good sight picture, it is can you afford to miss... At very close ranges I don't have a picture perfect sight picture...but I *do* see my front sight clearly and I *do* use it to make aimed shots that go exactly where I want them.

     Mmmmmm a  "good enough" sight picture is what I get with point shooting out to 7yds. I easily hit pie plate size or better with this method. Of course, this is what I practice. I guess I could try getting a partial sight picture. Wouldn't darkness play havoc on trying to get a good enough sight picture with a threat closing fast?

Man this is a great thread. I have been planning on improving my handgun technique for a while, it is nonexsistant at the moment. Right now I am more accurate with a slingshot than a handgun. I'm not ashamed of it, I mean, not that many people are accurate with a slingshot.  


I have been around and owned guns my whole life (thirty years old) but realize that I am still a beginner. I REALLY want to improve my abilities.

- When practicing, how many rounds can you safely shoot through your handgun during a shooting session without overheating the barrel? Does this even come into play? I'm shooting a Sig 226 9mm and a HK USP 45 Tactical if it matters.

- What is "trigger control"?

- I live in central Virginia, Lynchburg area, where would I look to find a good training class near me?

Quoted: Quoted: It seems like this particular argument about "You don't know me or how well I handle stress" almost always comes from shooters that have little if any quality professional instruction. The mere act of the instructor bringing out the timer can be enough to make even experienced shooters fuck the cat.   This is an interesting statement. I agree that if you can't handle stress and shoot very well. That you need some training to get your "nerves" under control. We certainly don't want a bunch of "Barney Fife's" representing gun owners or law enforcement.    I have learned to enjoy stress. It makes me think better.

I think the point that I am trying to make is that physiologically human beings are pretty much the same with regards to design. Obviously there are exceptions, like physically and mentally handicapped and so on. That being the case, the human body has a pretty standard reaction to stress. Adrenaline and other hormones are released and stimulate the fight or flight response. This produces a number of effects on the body that are more or less the same person to person. There are varieties of manifestations of these effects, but most of them fall into a few main catagories of response. Increased heart rate, core arterial expansion with the peripheral circulatory system contracting, increased breathing, or at a certain point in the response there can be no breathing at all, fine motor skills go out the window as the main muscle groups are engorged with blood and the rest of the body is deprived, at a certain point the bowels will release, there can be tunnel vision and a distorted perception of time and space, and the ears don't work well anymore if at all depending on the heighth of the excitement.

These are all common responses though everyone experiences them at different degrees at different intervals according to different stimulus. Everyone has a different shock threshold. The statement made earlier about combat veterans being better under pressure is for the most part quite accurate. Their shock threshold has been changed. Experience and training can shorten the amount of time between the brain saying "WTF?", and then saying, "I need to get the F outta here, or shoot", and actually executing the required movements. This all goes back to the OODA loop or PADE cycle. Previous experience shortens the amount of time it takes to respond appropriately to a certain event. I could go on but will stop here.

A guy may be very comfortable under a certain amount of stress, maybe even more than the next 20 guys. He will however respond physiologically in nearly the same manner as those other twenty guys if he is properly stimulated. It doesn't matter who you are, adrenaline has a pretty standard effect on the body. At what point the adrenaline dumps varies considerably, but at some point it will happen to everybody.

Different people handle this dump better than others, but it is usually due to experience. The body and mind have been through it before and don't have to think as long to respond.

Now, how do we go about moderating the effects of this adrenaline dump that deprives us of fine motor skills, hearing, our bladder control, and so on? Well, one answer is to train a response enough that it becomes a conditioned response to a particular stimuli. Drawing and firing for example from 15 yds. and from 5yds. happen at different speeds and under different circumstances. The response is different. Also the amount of urgecy can effect the extent of your adrenaline dump. If you are taken out of your comfort zone and experience stimulus that causes you to dump adrenaline your performance will suffer considerably no matter how experienced or comfortable under stress you are. That is just how the human body works. With training you can lessen these effects, but they don't usually go away.

This is a pretty lame description of what I'm trying to say, I've heard lectures that got very in depth and went on for hours and hours detailing small parts of the stuff I am writing about.

Quoted:      Mmmmmm a  "good enough" sight picture is what I get with point shooting out to 7yds.

Point shooting does not teach the use of the sights to index the target.

Instructors who teach it often tape over your sights with black electrical tape.

I easily hit pie plate size or better with this method.

Thus my point about the stress course. If you aren't using your sights at 7 yards, I can guaran-darn-tee you that I can make you miss.

Of course, this is what I practice. I guess I could try getting a partial sight picture.

The sight picture might not be perfect in a hurried sight picture, but you can still see the sights and they are still indexed enough to put a round where you need it at close range.

Wouldn't darkness play havoc on trying to get a good enough sight picture with a threat closing fast?

That's why God made Surefire and Trijicon.

Quoted: - When practicing, how many rounds can you safely shoot through your handgun during a shooting session without overheating the barrel?

I have fired almost 700 rounds in a period of 1.5 hours through my handgun. Yes, the pistol got hot, but it kept running and was not damaged.

A semi-automatic handgun cannot generate a sufficient rate of fire for the heat of firing it to damage the weapon.

Does this even come into play? I'm shooting a Sig 226 9mm and a HK USP 45 Tactical if it matters.

No, it doesn't. Blast away.

- What is "trigger control"?

The process of pressing the trigger smoothly without disrupting the point of aim of the weapon.

- I live in central Virginia, Lynchburg area, where would I look to find a good training class near me?

Blackwater Training Center is within driving distance of you. It is expensive, but trust me when I tell you that it is the best investment you can make in your shooting abilities.

30yds routine. 50yds max for pistol engagement IMO.

Though, I have shot a 2liter bottle of soda with my Glock 23 at 100yds while teaching someone new to rifles how to shoot at 100yds (I actually hit the target with my Glock before he could hit it with my rifle).

Quoted: Quoted: <Snip> Opinions are like buttholes, everybodys got one. blackeye, you've been on this forum longer than I, but in my short time here, I've quickly learned that J_W777's "opinion" is like a 24k Gold Diamond Studded butthole that spews rubies and emeralds and all sorts of other precious gems.  Not everyone has that

Does this have anything to do with J_W777's method of distracting a shooter trying to hit a 5-yd target?

Quoted: Quoted:   15 yds is my "magic distance"   If I can hit at 15, I can hit at 25. Anything closer is cheating. No, it isn't. I guarantee you that I could put you 5 yards away from a target and stress you to the point where you would completely miss it.

Excellent point JW777.  My motto is there is no target too large or too close that I can't miss!!  Sounds as if some of these guys have never done any IDPA/IPSC shooting.

Quoted: Quoted: - When practicing, how many rounds can you safely shoot through your handgun during a shooting session without overheating the barrel? I have fired almost 700 rounds in a period of 1.5 hours through my handgun. Yes, the pistol got hot, but it kept running and was not damaged. A semi-automatic handgun cannot generate a sufficient rate of fire for the heat of firing it to damage the weapon. Does this even come into play? I'm shooting a Sig 226 9mm and a HK USP 45 Tactical if it matters. No, it doesn't. Blast away. - What is "trigger control"? The process of pressing the trigger smoothly without disrupting the point of aim of the weapon. - I live in central Virginia, Lynchburg area, where would I look to find a good training class near me? Blackwater Training Center is within driving distance of you. It is expensive, but trust me when I tell you that it is the best investment you can make in your shooting abilities.

Thanks for the answers. I printed out the "Shooting Agenda" you posted on page one and will look into the Blackwater Training Center.

Quoted: Thanks for the answers. I printed out the "Shooting Agenda" you posted on page one and will look into the Blackwater Training Center.

L. I. B.

Someone's gonna actually learn something here.

I shoot jack rabbits at 25 yards with my Auto Ordnance GI 1911 all the time. Not really that much to it. Usually goes something like this.

Hey stop the truck. See him?
Where?
Over there under that mesquite bush.
Where?
There!
Where?
Right fuckin there! Are you blind?
Where?
Screw you, gimme the 1911.

Quoted: Thanks for the answers. I printed out the "Shooting Agenda" you posted on page one and will look into the Blackwater Training Center.

No problem. Always happy to help.

Blackwater's reactive steel range is the most addictive thing I have ever seen.

I do a drill called the dot drill.

It is an 8.5 X 11 inch sheet of paper with 16 one inch dots spaced on it evenly in a grid.

I shoot it from 7 yards and put five rounds in each dot.


I have yet to shoot it clean, still working on it. You have to know your point of aim and keep on the front sight.

I learned the drill at Tactical Response I think they got it from Andy Stanford from OPS.

I occasionally shoot out to 25 yards, but with the dot training I do well.

Quoted: I do a drill called the dot drill. It is an 8.5 X 11 inch sheet of paper with 16 one inch dots spaced on it evenly in a grid. I shoot it from 7 yards and put five rounds in each dot. I have yet to shoot it clean, still working on it. You have to know your point of aim and keep on the front sight. I learned the drill at Tactical Response I think they got it from Andy Stanford from OPS. I occasionally shoot out to 25 yards, but with the dot training I do well.

Five shots from the draw on 1" targets is a VERY good drill.

Also good is numbering the dots and having a buddy call out the dot numbers and the rounds on each dot.

Quoted: Quoted: I do a drill called the dot drill. It is an 8.5 X 11 inch sheet of paper with 16 one inch dots spaced on it evenly in a grid. I shoot it from 7 yards and put five rounds in each dot. I have yet to shoot it clean, still working on it. You have to know your point of aim and keep on the front sight. I learned the drill at Tactical Response I think they got it from Andy Stanford from OPS. I occasionally shoot out to 25 yards, but with the dot training I do well. Dang, that sounds tough. Thanks for the idea. Tj

TJ

If you have any money allocated for training you might want to look into some of the Tactical Response Classes www.tacticalresponse.com/

They are located in Camden, TN which is just North West of Nashville. They have really good two day courses. They have basic and advanced pistol, rifle and shotgun classes. They do Force on Force and Tactics classes too. You might want to look into it.

I was watching a show on t.v. about a guy who was AWESOME with a bow & arrow. He used a recurve bow and was dead on accurate, even with moving targets. He would even have his wife toss an asperin up and he would hit it, from about 5 - 6 yards, with an arrow that had nothing on the end but a metal cap with a flat tip. They showed it in super slow motion about 5 times, it was remarkable.

He said that the way he taught hiself accuracy was by putting a lit candle down range, indoors, he didn't say what distance but I guess that's up to you, turning the lights off and shooting out the flame. He just had a small light where he was standing. said he tore a bunch of candles up but eventually got to where he could shoot the flame out consistantly.

Do you think this would work with a hand gun?

Quoted: I was watching a show on t.v. about a guy who was AWESOME with a bow & arrow. He used a recurve bow and was dead on accurate, even with moving targets. He would even have his wife toss an asperin up and he would hit it, from about 5 - 6 yards, with an arrow that had nothing on the end but a metal cap with a flat tip. They showed it in super slow motion about 5 times, it was remarkable. He said that the way he taught hiself accuracy was by putting a lit candle down range, indoors, he didn't say what distance but I guess that's up to you, turning the lights off and shooting out the flame. He just had a small light where he was standing. said he tore a bunch of candles up but eventually got to where he could shoot the flame out consistantly. Do you think this would work with a hand gun?

I find it much easier to hit a 1" dot at 7 yards than to hit a 1" bullseye on a 6" target from the same distance.  Others may be able to explain the reason for it, but my guess is there is less distraction from a small target and you are less likely to wander off the mark.  I would think that if you wanted to use a candle you could, but the 1" dot is essentially teaching you the same thing.  

The "trick" is when you transfer to a large target that doesn't have a bullseye on it, you need to be able to imagine the 1" spot and place it where you want it.  

If you really want to shoot a gun and see how accurate you are shooting, a bullseye target or bullseye event is the only way to see if you can make a gun run accurately.  Conventional pistol is too difficult for most shooters, they suck so they call it boring and go back to trigger jerking at 3 yds.  The idea that a rifle is needed for anything farther than 15 yards is laughable.  If you can't shoot at 15 yards a rifle wont help.

The IDPA idea that you never practice, "I Don't Practice Anymore" (IDPA) theory is entertaining.  Do you rub the gun on your forehead daily to absorb the knowledge of the gun or what?  Nobody is really going to get attacked in their sleep and need four mags to polish off hostage taking thieves and killers from the toilet or kitchen, then switch to a shottie or long gun and drive the additional twelve thugs out of the garage.
Entertaining as it is, IDPA is a game like anything else.

IPSC/USPSA run and gun at 3 yds is entertaining but has nothing to do with accuracy.  Every one of these events I have shot was all about speed and had guys wandering around like queers admiring each others holsters and crap, worst of all they seem to practice karate and ninja skills on each other too.  Over a 6 hour day at the range you shoot for about 90 seconds and wander around talking smack for 5 hours.


The CMP sells the US Army Marksmanship Unit training guide for bullseye pistol is about seven dollars.  It's worth every penny.


If you want to get better at whatever you are shooting, shoot a competitive event and shoot shoulder to shoulder with people that can shoot, guage your skill level and adjust.