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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:00:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As has already been said in this thread, the mujahadeen did not "morph" into the Taliban or Al Quaeda. That is a lie spread by the liberals and the Paulistinians. What was left of the muj became mostly the Northern Alliance that aided us in our invasion of Afghanistan. The Taliban was created by the Pakistani ISI and Al Quaeda was financed by the oil producing Middle Eastern nations. We were completely right to aid the mujahadeen in Afghanistan and ending the Cold War was much more important and significant than the threat of terrorism. When I was in Southern Afghanistan, a lot of the old Muj guys I talked to fled south to Pakistan when the Taliban took power. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:06:07 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The muj were not the taliban. The biggest threat to the US remains communist ideology. goat herders can't kill us, only hurt us. communism will destroy this nation. fighting the soviet union, taking away the biggest support of US Communism was and is the best COA. This.
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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:06:08 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We helped kill communists. That's never a bad thing. I'm going with this. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:07:56 AM EDT
[#4]
Different time, different issues. Remember that thing called the Soviet Union?
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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:09:30 AM EDT
[#5]
"Damn... I know I'm in remission and all, but that chemotherapy was a lousy idea... it made all my hair fall out!"
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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:13:37 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In the meantime, does it refute the idea that our funding which was given to the ISI was funneled into radical Pakistani madrassas or Taliban-aligned warlords? I swear I remember reading that before. Edit: The direct support we provided, which we had control over, didn't go anywhere near the Taliban from what I understand. The madrassas were self-funded (there were plenty of Deobandis in the area...plenty of Saudis to fund them where the locals couldn't) and the Taliban itself was created after US money (and Arab, for that matter) had dried up. One of the only legitimate Pak complaints is that they were left holding the bag for 3 million Pashtuns who weren't going anywhere, except to Karachi to destabilize one of the only economically viable parts of the Pak economy. There were no schools or other social services for the refugees, so the madrassas and Islamist political parties filled that vacuum. Meanwhile, funding a pliant proxy force to take over Astan while (from the Pak perspective) the Soviets/Russians were attempting the same with the DRA and then NA seemed like the logical answer, especially from the standpoint of Strategic Depth. Bhutto was hip deep in this effort, so the fact she was assassinated by Pashtun element that went rogue from the Pakistani calculus is hard irony. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:35:47 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This +100 on all three. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nope. None of our business. Should have stayed out of it. BTW Korea and Vietnam too. This +100 on all three. That would have been short-sighted and foolish. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:43:21 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We were absolutely right. The Soviet military's failure to pacify Afghanistan helped bring about the downfall of the USSR more than any other single event. There's a theory that a major contributing factor to the fall of communism was a KGB report on their trip to Disneyworld, the fact that capitalism had created such a playground for the children of the common people terrified the Soviets. Point being the USSR fell because it was run by commies. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:46:49 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Things were fucked up, but do you think Congress would have approved boots on the ground to help us stabilize that country? We could have sent more aid, but with the Pakistanis a physical presence trying to radicalize the government, I think it would have taken troops to set things right. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
As has already been said in this thread, the mujahadeen did not "morph" into the Taliban or Al Quaeda. That is a lie spread by the liberals and the Paulistinians. What was left of the muj became mostly the Northern Alliance that aided us in our invasion of Afghanistan. The Taliban was created by the Pakistani ISI and Al Quaeda was financed by the oil producing Middle Eastern nations. We were completely right to aid the mujahadeen in Afghanistan and ending the Cold War was much more important and significant than the threat of terrorism. you win 1000 Internets! We fucked up on the follow through after Russia pulled out. Things were fucked up, but do you think Congress would have approved boots on the ground to help us stabilize that country? We could have sent more aid, but with the Pakistanis a physical presence trying to radicalize the government, I think it would have taken troops to set things right. Boots on the ground in a nation that just got done fighting an invading army? Boots, literally right on the heels of Soviet troops? Not going to happen, not even in bizarro universe. The Russians wouldn't have stood for it, and no self respecting Afghan would trade one invader for another. It would be the perfect mission for the peace corps, imho. A non-military force with strictly humanitarian and infrastructure goals could have made it work, if one is so inclined to go poking their nose where it doesn't belong. I still say it was right to help the Afghans, because that's what common decency demands. Their nation was invaded by an empire, and even if the Muj did turn into the Taliban (which it didn't-- the Taliban is a completely separate movement that sprung up in Pakistani madrassas for war orphans) it would still be the right thing to do. It's their country, let them rule it like a 5th century shithole. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 9:15:42 AM EDT
[#10]
I'll play devils advocate and say yes we did the right thing but fucked up the end game by not holding thier hand for a stable democracy. Things may have turned out a lot different.
On the flip side we shoudlnt get involved in every skirmish especially where the local culture is so vastly different. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 9:23:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The madrassas were self-funded (there were plenty of Deobandis in the area...plenty of Saudis to fund them where the locals couldn't) and the Taliban itself was created after US money (and Arab, for that matter) had dried up. One of the only legitimate Pak complaints is that they were left holding the bag for 3 million Pashtuns who weren't going anywhere, except to Karachi to destabilize one of the only economically viable parts of the Pak economy. There were no schools or other social services for the refugees, so the madrassas and Islamist political parties filled that vacuum. Meanwhile, funding a pliant proxy force to take over Astan while (from the Pak perspective) the Soviets/Russians were attempting the same with the DRA and then NA seemed like the logical answer, especially from the standpoint of Strategic Depth. Bhutto was hip deep in this effort, so the fact she was assassinated by Pashtun element that went rogue from the Pakistani calculus is hard irony. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In the meantime, does it refute the idea that our funding which was given to the ISI was funneled into radical Pakistani madrassas or Taliban-aligned warlords? I swear I remember reading that before. Edit: The direct support we provided, which we had control over, didn't go anywhere near the Taliban from what I understand. The madrassas were self-funded (there were plenty of Deobandis in the area...plenty of Saudis to fund them where the locals couldn't) and the Taliban itself was created after US money (and Arab, for that matter) had dried up. One of the only legitimate Pak complaints is that they were left holding the bag for 3 million Pashtuns who weren't going anywhere, except to Karachi to destabilize one of the only economically viable parts of the Pak economy. There were no schools or other social services for the refugees, so the madrassas and Islamist political parties filled that vacuum. Meanwhile, funding a pliant proxy force to take over Astan while (from the Pak perspective) the Soviets/Russians were attempting the same with the DRA and then NA seemed like the logical answer, especially from the standpoint of Strategic Depth. Bhutto was hip deep in this effort, so the fact she was assassinated by Pashtun element that went rogue from the Pakistani calculus is hard irony. Ah, gotcha. I knew about the Saudi funding playing a major role. Must have gotten the timeline messed up on when they kicked into gear and when we scaled back. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 9:30:59 AM EDT
[#12]
It was probably a good thing at the time, luckily we have learned since then and we don't arm and train Islamic fighters and put Stinger missiles in their hands anymore...
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Posted: 9/9/2013 9:31:37 AM EDT
[#13]
When I said follow through after the Russians withdrew, I didn't mean in the form of US military.
USAID, Peace Corps, Financial aid and such were what I meant, including helping set up a government and bringing all the various faction leaders together for talks. There was a power vacuum that the various warlords were fighting each other for control over. Afghans got sick of it and the Taliban were invited in to keep the peace, which they did and went full fucktard on power tripping. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 9:33:00 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Hindsight being what it is, were we right to help the Mujahideen in Afghanistan back in the 80s? Counter question: Would you rather have Al Qaeda as an enemy, or the USSR? No matter how many they've killed, Al Qaeda is a flee on a dog's ass compared to the murderous nature of the USSR. Only reason we're having trouble fighting them is political correctness and Saudi oil money. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 9:36:17 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, gotcha. I knew about the Saudi funding playing a major role. Must have gotten the timeline messed up on when they kicked into gear and when we scaled back. Of course, the Saudis are justifying that exercise in soft power as legitimate because we were doing fuck-all in the region and the Pak didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. No one did the Phase V planning, because Afghanistan isn't a graveyard of empires, its a football field where empires go to play. The fact that its a fucked up mess isn't entirely the fault of the Afghans, but shared with the international community who are happy to play great power politics by other means in someone else's house. A someone who is powerless to stop them. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 9:39:11 AM EDT
[#16]
As it turned out? No. We should have let the Red Army crush them.
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Posted: 9/9/2013 12:41:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As it turned out? No. We should have let the Red Army crush them. Yeah, cause Soviet domination of half the world is sooo much better than a few Middle Eastern countries having a terrorism problem...not to mention the possibility of civilization ending nuclear war hanging over our head. Children. 
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Posted: 9/9/2013 12:55:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Yes. They were killing Soviets and the cost of that war to the USSR helped us win the Cold War.
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Posted: 9/9/2013 4:51:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As it turned out? No. We should have let the Red Army crush them. Crush who, exactly? |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 5:00:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I said follow through after the Russians withdrew, I didn't mean in the form of US military. USAID, Peace Corps, Financial aid and such were what I meant, including helping set up a government and bringing all the various faction leaders together for talks. There was a power vacuum that the various warlords were fighting each other for control over. Afghans got sick of it and the Taliban were invited in to keep the peace, which they did and went full fucktard on power tripping. After the Russians withdrew in 1989, the DRA was running the show, and I highly doubt that they would have allowed USAID within a country mile of the border. The Russians were supporting the Afghans with war material, food and fuel, and the DRA was holding (despite the perception at the time that the Communist Afghan government would collapse in weeks if not days of the withdrawal of Soviet land forces.) The DRA benefited hugely from the Conventional Forces in Europe treaty, as the then Soviets brought literal trainloads of munitions into Afghanistan as aid to the government. As Soviet aid ended with the end of the Soviet Union (though Russia was supporting the DRA for awhile, probably out of inertia) the Communist DRA was set upon by all of the various rebel factions. The Paks, among others, saw their opening and took it. While their traditional proxies lacked the combat power, a fresh force entered the scene, armed and advised (and reported supported directly with air/arty and intel) by Pakistan. This force from the Pakistani madrassas, the Taliban were cohesive, and unlike the other players, had the logistics to make the mare go. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 5:50:51 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I was in Southern Afghanistan, a lot of the old Muj guys I talked to fled south to Pakistan when the Taliban took power. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
As has already been said in this thread, the mujahadeen did not "morph" into the Taliban or Al Quaeda. That is a lie spread by the liberals and the Paulistinians. What was left of the muj became mostly the Northern Alliance that aided us in our invasion of Afghanistan. The Taliban was created by the Pakistani ISI and Al Quaeda was financed by the oil producing Middle Eastern nations. We were completely right to aid the mujahadeen in Afghanistan and ending the Cold War was much more important and significant than the threat of terrorism. When I was in Southern Afghanistan, a lot of the old Muj guys I talked to fled south to Pakistan when the Taliban took power. When I was in Southern Afghanistan, I was training and leading old Muj guys, fighting Taliban. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 6:52:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I was in Southern Afghanistan, I was training and leading old Muj guys, fighting Taliban. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
As has already been said in this thread, the mujahadeen did not "morph" into the Taliban or Al Quaeda. That is a lie spread by the liberals and the Paulistinians. What was left of the muj became mostly the Northern Alliance that aided us in our invasion of Afghanistan. The Taliban was created by the Pakistani ISI and Al Quaeda was financed by the oil producing Middle Eastern nations. We were completely right to aid the mujahadeen in Afghanistan and ending the Cold War was much more important and significant than the threat of terrorism. When I was in Southern Afghanistan, a lot of the old Muj guys I talked to fled south to Pakistan when the Taliban took power. When I was in Southern Afghanistan, I was training and leading old Muj guys, fighting Taliban. They're good dudes. I'd make a point to stop by and check on them periodically. We'd hang out and drink chai and talk about how we hate Russians and how big of pussies the Taliban were. Then argue about which weapons were better. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 6:58:24 PM EDT
[#23]
We didn't really help the Muj. By the time our Stingers actually got the Afghanistan and were about to be used, the Russians had already declared a withdrawal plan.
It's a good thing that it didn't work though, because imagine having another state to deal with that is much like North Korea. That would have been Afghanistan if their plans succeeded. We're a better world for Communists failing. You cannot honestly believe that Al-Qaeda is a bigger threat to our security then the Soviet Union was. No way. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 7:01:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The muj were not the taliban. The biggest threat to the US remains communist ideology. goat herders can't kill us, only hurt us. communism will destroy this nation. fighting the soviet union, taking away the biggest support of US Communism was and is the best COA. ^ Correct answer. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 7:05:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
next Thursday... It is always proper to kill communists. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We helped kill communists. That's never a bad thing. When do we start here? next Thursday... It is always proper to kill communists. ROE, and what pay incentives will be doled out? |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 7:27:30 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're good dudes. I'd make a point to stop by and check on them periodically. We'd hang out and drink chai and talk about how we hate Russians and how big of pussies the Taliban were. Then argue about which weapons were better. They are. I had pretty much the same experiences. |
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